View Full Version : Merger watch
Just saw on the other forum a guy listening to local Indy sports show had the interviewer in Homestead discuss with TG the possibility of a merger. Apparently TG said it will happen but they need to be left alone. It'll happen sooner rather than later. Not for 2007 either but more like 2008
that is all........
racer2c
03-24-06, 06:10 PM
Merger? First I've heard of a merger.
Sounds good. I want my race back! (spicoli ©)
:)
Racing Truth
03-24-06, 06:20 PM
Just saw on the other forum a guy listening to local Indy sports show had the interviewer in Homestead discuss with TG the possibility of a merger. Apparently TG said it will happen but they need to be left alone. It'll happen sooner rather than later. Not for 2007 either but more like 2008
that is all........
My guess is they'll run common equipment perhaps? Still wish they'd do it for '07.
Racing Truth
03-24-06, 06:32 PM
[blog/] Reading the thread in question more, TG doesn't TOTALLY rule out '07. Almost, but not quite, [blog/]
Carry on. :gomer:
I think a merger announcement will be the lipstick on the pig that will be this year's 500. It'll turn the attention away from the criticisms.
The question of when they actually get on the same tracks will be answered by the practicalities involved.
Andrew Longman
03-24-06, 06:58 PM
It will be 07.
TG still thinks he has some say in it. :shakehead
ndy Racing League founder Tony George confirmed Friday that he is in negotiations with Kevin Kalkhoven, the principal owner of the Champ Car World Series, with the goal of creating a merged or unified series for American open-wheel racing.
Addressing a group of reporters at Homestead-Miami Speedway, where the IRL kicks off its eleventh season of competition with Sunday afternoon's Toyota Indy 300, George said he has spent the last couple of months getting to know Kalkhoven on a personal basis while discussing the issues that confront their respective series. But he cautioned media members and the public from getting too excited about the possibility of imminent unification.
"I think Kevin and I agree on many of the big issues," George commented. "I think we both appreciate diversity in the schedule and agree about a combination of road and street circuits and ovals. We want to operate profitably, we want to keep all of our partners involved and we want them to have a return on their investment.
"But it's a delicate balance between sport, business, entertainment and technology."
They each run 2 or 3 of their own then clash at Indy '07 for the big reunion party. (there's a helluva concession) Then Long Beach '08 opens the 1st full season of togetherness. The season ends early back at Indy (for TV concerns) on the road course to hopefully decide the championship. (big concessions 2 & 3) Things are evened out by using the 2.65 turbo, the Swift Mazda Atlantic (a HUGE no-brainer) and a few other morsels like Milwaukee, Road America, Surfers, Canada 1&2, Mexico City, Cleveland, and Denver. Hell, even at that they are the one's conceding a whole freekin' formula and business plan (dare I say "vision") to get a full field at Indy and a few other places. I'd take that and a stronger TV deal in a heartbeat. KK always said that was priorty #1. CC gets Indy and TV, (and all the attendant sponsorship interest) TG gets his race back and the promise of a much brighter future. Don't ask about the ownership setup...that could be the biggest concession of all.
Andrew Longman
03-24-06, 08:07 PM
They each run 2 or 3 of their own then clash at Indy '07 for the big reunion party. (there's a helluva concession) Then Long Beach '08 opens the 1st full season of togetherness. The season ends early back at Indy (for TV concerns) on the road course to hopefully decide the championship. (big concessions 2 & 3) Things are evened out by using the 2.65 turbo, the Swift Mazda Atlantic (a HUGE no-brainer) and a few other morsels like Milwaukee, Road America, Surfers, Canada 1&2, Mexico City, Cleveland, and Denver. Hell, even at that they are the one's conceding a whole freekin' formula and business plan (dare I say "vision") to get a full field at Indy and a few other places. I'd take that and a stronger TV deal in a heartbeat. KK always said that was priorty #1. CC gets Indy and TV, (and all the attendant sponsorship interest) TG gets his race back and the promise of a much brighter future. Don't ask about the ownership setup...that could be the biggest concession of all.
If there is not a full merger in 07 then I see something like that.
I never thought of a second race at Indy on the road course. I'd hate to put more revenue in TG pocket and I hate the course and I'd hate for it to displace a better roadcourse, but symbolically if does say something about the diversity of the series. Might have some marketing value in that regard
I wonder if the Indy market can support four races but the f1 race might notlast anyway. Hmmm
The '08 thing sounds like TG clinging to his last bit of leverage.
Racing Truth
03-24-06, 09:04 PM
The '08 thing sounds like TG clinging to his last bit of leverage.
Or a diversion before they spring an '07 announcement...
Or a diversion before they spring an '07 announcement...
That's my bet.
racer2c
03-24-06, 11:33 PM
the only reason I could see with a '08 announcement is that there would be a new Panoz that they could call a 'merger' chassis since CCWS already announced their '07. Since TG wants there to be concessions...
I can't imagine them announcing something this May for two years from now however. It's nothing more than posturing.
jcollins28
03-24-06, 11:59 PM
No way it will happen in 2008. If it happens it will be 2007. No way those IRL teams want to be 1 year behind with the new chassis.
No way it will happen in 2008. If it happens it will be 2007. No way those IRL teams want to be 1 year behind with the new chassis.
Unless the new chassis gets delayed, but I agree that '07 makes more sense. Waiting another year will just result in further erosion of both series, and a few more broken backs. :shakehead
-Kevin
Brickman
03-25-06, 02:31 AM
Unless the new chassis gets delayed, but I agree that '07 makes more sense. Waiting another year will just result in further erosion of both series, and a few more broken backs. :shakehead
-Kevin
I don't think it will get delayed by a year, but a bit of a makeover will happen.
'Drew...agree wholeheartedly about the Indy Infield race/track, but I'm trying to envision "concession." I'd like it to be on that 4th of July weekend as opposed to a Sept. or Oct. early season-ender but then I don't know how the Philadelphia plans are proceeding, if at all. I also see you picked up on the idea that TG could more easily thumb his nose at F-1 with a strong unified series replacement if his deal there goes (more) sour. I feel silly for sounding so premature on the details but find it difficult not to think about them! No doubt there WILL be unhappy people regardless of what plan is eventually brought forward, but I'm trying to en"vision" a coming leisure time retirement that finds me smack in the middle of Chicagoland, Milwaukee, Road America, Kansas City, Cleveland, Toronto, and Indianapolis with actual vacations :) to Denver and St. Pete! :thumbup:
Accipiter
03-25-06, 01:04 PM
OK, many good thoughts, but what about Honda? If they come in with a turbo, does it kick off another unhealthy engine war? Have and have-not engine-funded teams? If so, does Ford have the commitment to back the Cosworth in the face of stiff competition?
Be assured neither KK nor TG will allow a mfg. driven series again at this point and MUST agree on strong restrictions. If there is ONE lesson learned isn't that the one? (I think it is the main reason these talks are even taking place!) Honda will participate, no question, otherwise why would they be calling for unity? TG said no spec details have been decided yet but, c'mon, can you see NA engines in the new Panoz? Not feasible. (a reason why one here has suggested the chassis may be "reworked" before rollout? Your chassis, our engine? No chance. Or using existing League tubs? Even less of a chance.) Cosworth vs. Honda in a new series? Sure, why not? Maybe not by '07, but by '08? More likely. If you remember KK said allowing other mfgrs. in IS a part of the 5 yr. plan, with strict controls, whatever they might be. Same cost to teams? I don't think Cosworth or KK would shy away from competing with Honda straight up, and Honda wants the competition, so...? (maybe Ilmor/Penske will be building the Hondas anyway? Maybe Clarke will retire by then! :)
And think back to the Cosworth acquisition for a moment. No question TG was involved, perhaps through Ganassi or others, to snag Cosworth through an agressive business act to deny it to an enemy. One more blow from that hammer. But now KK is, I'm certain, reassuring TG that Cosworth will be made available to anyone in a unified series...BECAUSE IT'S GOOD FOR BUSINESS! They produced the Chevworth and that alone helped out The League so I have little doubt TG worries about KKs sincerity in negotiations.
HA! How about Cosworth making ALL the engines, Honda paying half to badge them, and then handing them out in a blind draw like they do now? The name doesn't go on the valve cover until the engine is shipped. Not race by race, but as part of a season long deal.
fourrunner
03-25-06, 03:13 PM
HA! How about Cosworth making ALL the engines, Honda paying half to badge them, and then handing them out in a blind draw like they do now? The name doesn't go on the valve cover until the engine is shipped. Not race by race, but as part of a season long deal.
Along those lines ... Even if Honda supplies its own engines .. Team Support cannot be allowed ... Cosworth has no incentive to do that ... and you can't have unfair advantage for the new series to work ... Honda could do what you envision Nizmo, just because of that !
jonovision_man
03-25-06, 03:38 PM
What about KK & GF selling Cosworth to Red Bull? Leave it to Honda to provide low-cost engines to the whole grid.
The Mole thinks it make sense... he discussed it when talking about Red Bull's chance of winning with a Ferrari engine (ie. non-existant) vs their chances of winning with a Cosworth engine (very existant! :))
http://www.grandprix.com/mole/mole16568.html
No Ferrari customer team has ever won a World Championship Grand Prix. Adrian Newey, the new Red Bull Racing technical chief, will no doubt have made this point already. The option is to buy in expertise and it is very convenient that Cosworth Racing, just down the road in Northampton, has suddenly produced a marvellous V8 engine. The obvious move for Red Bull is to divert a convoy of security vans full of money to Northampton and convince Cosworth owners Gerry Forsythe and Kevin Kalkhoven that they really do not have any desire to be in the engine-building business. This may not be that hard. Both men are essentially venture capitalists and know that you buy when something is cheap and sell when the price rises. They acquired Cosworth because they needed to secure the engine supply of their Champ Car series. Ford Motor Company wanted to sell the business and the price was so cheap that Ford insisted on confidentiality clauses about the deal.
Now Mateschitz faces the choice of paying out $50m for engines for his two teams next year or offering a similar sum to Kalkhoven and Forsythe in order to become the owner of Cosworth. Kalkhoven and Forsythe could have a deal which guaranteed them engines and that would be that.
"It is a no-brainer," said The Mole out loud.
the only reason I could see with a '08 announcement is that there would be a new Panoz that they could call a 'merger' chassis since CCWS already announced their '07. Since TG wants there to be concessions...
I can't imagine them announcing something this May for two years from now however. It's nothing more than posturing.
If TG needs concession all he needs to do is concede defeat. :laugh:
fourrunner
03-25-06, 03:57 PM
What about KK & GF selling Cosworth to Red Bull? Leave it to Honda to provide low-cost engines to the whole grid.
The Mole thinks it make sense... he discussed it when talking about Red Bull's chance of winning with a Ferrari engine (ie. non-existant) vs their chances of winning with a Cosworth engine (very existant! :))
http://www.grandprix.com/mole/mole16568.html
Kevin & Gerry sell the one thing that insures the continuation of Champ Car & One of their leverage points in negotiations ??
I don't see it !
This guy is going on the premise that Kevin is only in this for the money and then he disappears ... again I don't see it !
Kevin has found Racing and I believe he wants to be in it full bore !
Gerry is not a venture capitalist ... He's in it for the Racing ... If Gerry was in this for money, he would have bailed to the IRL long ago !
Kevin nor Gerry need Red Bulls Money !
jonovision_man
03-25-06, 05:14 PM
Kevin & Gerry sell the one thing that insures the continuation of Champ Car & One of their leverage points in negotiations ??
I don't see it !
This guy is going on the premise that Kevin is only in this for the money and then he disappears ... again I don't see it !
Kevin has found Racing and I believe he wants to be in it full bore !
Gerry is not a venture capitalist ... He's in it for the Racing ... If Gerry was in this for money, he would have bailed to the IRL long ago !
Kevin nor Gerry need Red Bulls Money !
If Cosworth was a means to an end (get engines for CCWS) then the prospect of selling it for a profit post-merger might not look too bad.
Depends on how well it's doing, really, if they can get a low-cost commitment from Honda for the merged series and a good price for Cosworth from Red Bull, the pieces might fit for them.
There's really no need for Honda and Cosworth to both be supplying engines to the merged series, and Honda sounds like they're pushing the merger so they won't be stepping aside.
jono
The Mole is really good at "what if" pipe dreams, and most of the time he's apparently got hasheesh in his meerschaum.
Selling Cosworth would relinquish control of engines for both CC series and jeopardize a lot of the firm's employees' future since they do a lot more than make race engines. The most I could see would be an exclusive deal on the latest spec 2.4L V8 to have Red Bull on the valve covers.
Question: If it can't happen until 2008, what's to stop the IRL from adopting the Panoz as its chassis in 2007, thereby keeping the development field level heading onto '08?
jcollins28
03-25-06, 09:41 PM
Question: If it can't happen until 2008, what's to stop the IRL from adopting the Panoz as its chassis in 2007, thereby keeping the development field level heading onto '08?
I believe the IRL has a rule that their suppliers cannot support another series. So their own rules would lock out Panoz after this year. This could be another reason why the Rahal to CHAMP CAR rumors are so strong. Unlike anyone else in the IRL Rahal will be forced to by new chassis's after this season. If he has to buy new cars why not a cheaper, newer, better race car in the DP01.
Yeah, I saw the Red Bull rumor too and though I don't dismiss it I still think KK might just see it as an offer he COULD refuse. Even if it did happen I bet he'd keep the Torrence operation (or did they move to Long Beach yet ;) ) for CC. Also, there may be no NEED to have two engine suppliers but I doubt Tony has the guts to tell Honda to "get lost, we don't need you now" if a merger happens. Honda signed on as one of those "partners" TG keeps promising to honor and I think they are a big part of any merger. Again, I don't think Honda likes being the sole supplier for The League, they simply had no other options. Neither Honda, Cosworth or Ilmor (or whoever might badge them) would be against providing engines at a profit to a merger series. The key is the "strict controls" on mfg. participation that KK mentioned long ago.
Oh, and as far as the Rahal comment is concerned, include Ganassi, Andretti and maybe even Penske too because I think along with Honda THEY are the real reason TG has finally decided to negotiate. He's not doing this without a lot of pressure, I just hope he handles it well. (and decides NOT to listen so closely to those who were giving him such bad advice for so long.) Despite what many may think he didn't screw this up, and keep screwing it up, all by himself, though he allowed it to happen.
Lizzerd
03-26-06, 12:24 AM
I believe the IRL has a rule that their suppliers cannot support another series. So their own rules would lock out Panoz after this year. This could be another reason why the Rahal to CHAMP CAR rumors are so strong. Unlike anyone else in the IRL Rahal will be forced to by new chassis's after this season. If he has to buy new cars why not a cheaper, newer, better race car in the DP01.
And when did a "rule" ever stand in the way of TG doing whatever the hell he wanted to do? Remember 25/8? Teams buying/owning/building engines?
Besides that, Panoz is an Earl supplier now.
Don't believe for a minute that the "rule" you are thinking of wasn't just Boy George's way to keep Lola out of the playground at the time that they showed interest in building a chassis for the series.
Edit: Oh. I reread and I think I understand now. You were talking about locking Panoz out of Earl next year, right? Nevermind...
But, I still stand by my first sentence.
I believe the IRL has a rule that their suppliers cannot support another series. So their own rules would lock out Panoz after this year.
AFAIK that was never an actual rule. There was just a thinly veiled threat when the IRL was selecting chasis manufacturers that anyone supporting Champ car wouldn't be selected.
cameraman
03-26-06, 04:36 AM
So we are merging to capture the huge IRL fanbase...
http://motorsport.com/photos/irl/2006/hom/irl-2006-hom-jm-0035.jpg
The Homestead qualifying crowd.
jcollins28
03-26-06, 05:23 AM
AFAIK that was never an actual rule. There was just a thinly veiled threat when the IRL was selecting chasis manufacturers that anyone supporting Champ car wouldn't be selected.
Well I guess we will find out the current IRL Panoz is only legal for 2006. As of today that chassis will not be allowed to run in the IRL in 2007.
Kiwifan
03-26-06, 06:59 AM
So what would we (Champcar) get out of a merger? As cameraman pointed out, it ain't the crowds. Is it the tracks? Is the thought of getting Indy back that strong? Do we want them (teams/drivers) back?
Apart from no TV coverage (here) and a few minor hiccups I thought our series was the one on the up. If a merger means getting Scott Dixon back I might be in but other than that I could care less. Sorry. Too many jokers told too many lies, broke too many promises and sold their soul to the Devil. I would find it VERY hard to forgive them.
Rusty.
You bet it'd be difficult, but KK is approaching this from a far different perspective than most of us. He is emphasizing he wasn't around for the causes of the split, the actual split, 25/8 and for most of the time that followed. He looks forward not back. Plus, he hammered TG on the bankruptcy, he pounded him on on Cosworth, he smacked him on Long Beach and "reminded" him to stay away from Canada, all while pushing way ahead in his own 5 yr. plan for CC, while The League falters. I think the proper demonstrations have been made. Yes "we" would get Indy, but that isn't the important part. It is TV and sponsor interest that still thinks Indy is the only race worth paying attention to. KK would like to get that before TG's self-destruction removes all of the remaining attention. Ironic, huh, the man he was going to destroy with a hammer may actually be coming to rescue the family business, and is even willing to make it look like TG himself is the savior? Is TG finally figuring that out?
Andrew Longman
03-26-06, 09:45 AM
So we are merging to capture the huge IRL fanbase...
http://motorsport.com/photos/irl/2006/hom/irl-2006-hom-jm-0035.jpg
The Homestead qualifying crowd.
OMG is there ANYONE there? I can't tell if that's just 3-4 specs of dust on my monitor or literally less than a half dozen people in the stands.
But FWIW, what Nizmo said :thumbup:
So we are merging to capture the huge IRL fanbase...
http://motorsport.com/photos/irl/2006/hom/irl-2006-hom-jm-0035.jpg
Yep. According to crackforum KK is caving, because he needs huge crowds like this.
Yep. According to crackforum KK is caving, because he needs huge crowds like this.
:laugh:
I do wonder about KK's motivation here. I don't think there will be any sort of merger in the end. To me, FTG's motivation for the the 'talks' are obvious, to get the earl and the 'big race' more press. I wonder what KK is after?
OMG is there ANYONE there? I can't tell if that's just 3-4 specs of dust on my monitor or literally less than a half dozen people in the stands.
But FWIW, what Nizmo said :thumbup:
Hey, my folks are there along with another couple they brought with. I think when that photo was taken they were looking for Billy Boat's autograph session... or getting out of the heat... perhaps in the tenderloin line??? :rolleyes:
:laugh:
I do wonder about KK's motivation here. I don't think there will be any sort of merger in the end. To me, FTG's motivation for the the 'talks' are obvious, to get the earl and the 'big race' more press. I wonder what KK is after?
Because if they can get 51% control, or just 50% and a favorable management structure (i.e. a favorable commissioner) and add Mindy and a few paying IRL races to the schedule it's a huge win for him and all of open wheel racing.
While I don't buy the "KK is losing too much money and looking for a way out" line from the other side, I also think it would be foolish to think that holding out for much more than 50/50 control would be prudent given the state of things. Both sides have made the mistake of thinking that the other side was on the ropes too many times already.
And, in fairness, oval qualifying crowds have always sucked. That's why the IRL is going to "three day festivals of speed" on downtown streets.
stroker
03-26-06, 02:58 PM
OK, many good thoughts, but what about Honda? If they come in with a turbo, does it kick off another unhealthy engine war? Have and have-not engine-funded teams? If so, does Ford have the commitment to back the Cosworth in the face of stiff competition?
If KK and TG are ready to do the deal, Honda will do whatever they're told or they'll get out. Cosworth is independent of Ford.
oddlycalm
03-26-06, 03:29 PM
I do wonder about KK's motivation here. I don't think there will be any sort of merger in the end. To me, FTG's motivation for the the 'talks' are obvious, to get the earl and the 'big race' more press. I wonder what KK is after? I too am skeptical about a deal actually getting done due to past performance. TG has always squirrelled at the last minute in the past and is perfectly capable of doing so again just to generate press for his race. KK may actually be negotiating in good faith only to get stood up at the alter.
In the event a merger actually does happen it will be about sponsorship more than anything else. I think we can safely assume both sides have heard enough large sponsors tell him "get back to us when you and the other guys get serious" it's eventually going to have an effect. Big tobacco sponsorship is finished and every series has had to compensate for that sea change. The economy has returned to health yet the anticipated sponsors have not signed on.
oc
devilmaster
03-26-06, 03:35 PM
In the event a merger actually does happen it will be about sponsorship more than anything else. I think we can safely assume both sides have heard enough large sponsors tell him "get back to us when you and the other guys get serious" it's eventually going to have an effect. Big tobacco sponsorship is finished and every series has had to compensate for that sea change. The economy has returned to health yet the anticipated sponsors have not signed on.
oc
The only point I have to make to that is the realization that sponsorship is vastly undervalued in both series. The teams that had manufacturer support in both series undercut everyone else where sidepod sponsors were needed.
If both series get together, that problem remains.
The only point I have to make to that is the realization that sponsorship is vastly undervalued in both series. The teams that had manufacturer support in both series undercut everyone else where sidepod sponsors were needed.
If both series get together, that problem remains.
That problem remains if everyone sticks their head in the sand and thinks that a merger makes it go away. I think Forsythe understood that problem even back before Honda and Toyota left. Hopefully it's obvious even to Tony George at this point and they can take appropriate measures to deal with the problem.
cameraman
03-26-06, 05:23 PM
There is only one reason to merge and that is Indyitis on the part of corporate sponsors. The 500 ratings make the season.
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