Robin Miller is a complete scum bag!

[Fio1]

Unbelievable: http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/22748/

:thumdown: :shakehead

Robin Miller proved with this piece and what he said on wind bag that he is trully ignorant.

Examples:

"Dana didn't replace Vitor Meira on Rahal's team because he was a better driver, he simply brought money in the form of sponsor Ethanol. In today's sorry economy for IRL and Champ Car, Rahal needed to bring Dana on board to keep his three-car team solvent." RM

A) The only reason Meira ever got to Indy cars was because he brought money. His exploits running mid-pack in F3000 didn't get him noticed. I'm sure RM never heard of the guy before Menard brought him on.
B) Rahal doesn't need to run 3-cars. If Dana didn't bring backing, the car would stay in the shop.
C) There is a guy with 1 million dollars looking for a CCWS ride, some of you might have heard about him, but he has zero crudentials. No one is giving him the ride. If Rahal didn't feel he was ready he wouldn't have signed him.

"And, truth be told, Dana followed protocol to the letter. He spent two years in the IRL's Pro Series, won a race and a pole position and finished second in the point standings. Of course the IPS and it's wide open formula and small fields is hardly a yardstick for determining talent." RM

So, what more did you want the kid to do? Look, Scott Brayton had a lot less crudentials when he first showed up to Indy. Also, Michel Jordain had a lot less of a resume when he showed up to Indycars in 96, and he ended up winning races after a while. Also, I think Paul won at least one race car race more then Danica. If RM says Mini Al or Arie JR are ready for the IRL, he should be shot. At least Dana won a race in IPS!

I hate this B.S that people think if a 'rookie' gets killed it's because he was over his head. This p*ssed me off when Jovy Marcelo got killed in 92. The guy was the Formula Atlantic Champion, and there no one could take that away from him. Danica wishes he won a race let a lone the title in Atlantics, and she is rookie of the year. :rolleyes:

RM classy article dude, I'm sure his family will apreciate it. You are no more then a paparazzi ambulance chaser.

[racer2c]

I'm going to pull a Brickman and sit on the fence on this one. There are aspects of both your and Robin's points of view I agree with.

It is tragic that a life was lost today.

[Fio1]

It is tragic that a life was lost today.

Exactly. And, the guy should have respected that and shut his trap. What is the point of this article? The guy won in the feeder series, did 3 races with no problem last year in IRL, past his rookie test at Indy. What the heck?

I mean how low can you go than to kick a dead man in the balls? :( :thumdown:

[Lizzerd]

Unbelievable: http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/22748/

:thumdown: :shakehead

Robin Miller proved with this piece and what he said on wind bag that he is trully ignorant.

Examples:

"Dana didn't replace Vitor Meira on Rahal's team because he was a better driver, he simply brought money in the form of sponsor Ethanol. In today's sorry economy for IRL and Champ Car, Rahal needed to bring Dana on board to keep his three-car team solvent." RM

A) The only reason Meira ever got to Indy cars was because he brought money. His exploits running mid-pack in F3000 didn't get him noticed. I'm sure RM never heard of the guy before Menard brought him on.
B) Rahal doesn't need to run 3-cars. If Dana didn't bring backing, the car would stay in the shop.
C) There is a guy with 1 million dollars looking for a CCWS ride, some of you might have heard about him, but he has zero crudentials. No one is giving him the ride. If Rahal didn't feel he was ready he wouldn't have signed him.

"And, truth be told, Dana followed protocol to the letter. He spent two years in the IRL's Pro Series, won a race and a pole position and finished second in the point standings. Of course the IPS and it's wide open formula and small fields is hardly a yardstick for determining talent." RM

So, what more did you want the kid to do? Look, Scott Brayton had a lot less crudentials when he first showed up to Indy. Also, Michel Jordain had a lot less of a resume when he showed up to Indycars in 96, and he ended up winning races after a while. Also, I think Paul won at least one race car race more then Danica. If RM says Mini Al or Arie JR are ready for the IRL, he should be shot. At least Dana won a race in IPS!

I hate this B.S that people think if a 'rookie' gets killed it's because he was over his head. This p*ssed me off when Jovy Marcelo got killed in 92. The guy was the Formula Atlantic Champion, and there no one could take that away from him. Danica wishes he won a race let a lone the title in Atlantics, and she is rookie of the year. :rolleyes:

RM classy article dude, I'm sure his family will apreciate it. You are no more then a paparazzi ambulance chaser.

The timing may have been bad for SPEED to publish it, but what did RM say that wasn't true? RM wrote it, SPEED published it. Blame SPEED for showing something that was fresh on the writer's mind when the article was written.

True, Dana won in IPS and passed his ROP, but the standards have to have been lowered in the last few years. It's also true that Scott Brayton had likely less credentials than Dana, but that isn't the point RM was making. A ride buyer is a ride buyer.

[Fio1]

The timing may have been bad for SPEED to publish it, but what did RM say that wasn't true? RM wrote it, SPEED published it. Blame SPEED for showing something that was fresh on the writer's mind when the article was written.

True, Dana won in IPS and passed his ROP, but the standards have to have been lowered in the last few years. It's also true that Scott Brayton had likely less credentials than Dana, but that isn't the point RM was making. A ride buyer is a ride buyer.

Miller wrote it, I blame him, not Speed. Secondly, Dana qualified 9th in the race! He wasn't a second off the pace, like Jack Miller or others like Racin Gardner. In practice he was very close to Rice & Danica. He did 3-races last year with no problems. The guy was qualified to be there. He might not have been everyone's #1 choice, but he had the crudentials to race at this level.

The point about Scott Brayton is to show that one of RM's hero's wasn't far off from the late Paul Dana at the early stages of their indycar career.

Another thing to consider. Scott Sharp said Dana passed him like he was standing still. Well if you check results of the warm-up, Shap recorded a 53 second lap as his best (lap 2) and Dana recorded a 27 second lap (lap 3); sharp wasn't up to speed yet......

[devilmaster]

Miller wrote it, I blame him, not Speed. Secondly, Dana qualified 9th in the race! He wasn't a second off the pace, like Jack Miller or others like Racin Gardner. In practice he was very close to Rice & Danica. He did 3-races last year with no problems. The guy was qualified to be there. He might not have been everyone's #1 choice, but he had the crudentials to race at this level.

The point about Scott Brayton is to show that one of RM's hero's wasn't far off from the late Paul Dana at the early stages of their indycar career.

Another thing to consider. Scott Sharp said Dana passed him like he was standing still. Well if you check results of the warm-up, Shap recorded a 53 second lap as his best (lap 2) and Dana recorded a 27 second lap (lap 3); sharp wasn't up to speed yet......

Fio, chill.

You can have any opinion on RM that you want.... but don't start bringing out stats about it.

2 quick points I saw. You brought up how Dana passed MIPS and Indy rookie orientation? Well, I wished you had finished that thought with the next logical step..... at least 2 indy practice crashes(iirc, 3), the final crash which broke his back and put him out of the lineup for the rest of last year.

And second, I've seen many a replay of today's accident. It is quite obvious that before Dana got there, alot of cars were slower than he was going by Carpenter's car. A few cars went low avoiding Ed's wreck. Its obvious from the replay that Dana did that too, but he still was going 170 mph according to reports.

[Napoleon]

Another thing to consider. Scott Sharp said Dana passed him like he was standing still. Well if you check results of the warm-up, Shap recorded a 53 second lap as his best (lap 2) and Dana recorded a 27 second lap (lap 3); sharp wasn't up to speed yet......

Wrong - last lap is the last lap, not the current lap. They showed on TV the in car video from Sharp. Yellow lights come on, Sharp lifts, brakes and slows considerably, then Dana flies by him like he is standing still and plows straight into Carpenter's car which was plainly visible the entire time.

Miller was spot on in his assessment, as well as the unnamed former Indy 500 winner, it's just his timing was poor (or maybe good if you think he has to strike while the iron is hot to try to make an impact on how the sport is operated).

[Sean O'Gorman]

to try to make an impact on how the sport is operated).

If that is the case, might as well just shut down the whole sport if you are trying to remove ride buyers.

[pchall]

... What is the point of this article? The guy won in the feeder series, did 3 races with no problem last year in IRL, past his rookie test at Indy. What the heck?


His "wins" were in IPS and we've seen how well prepared other IPS winners have been -- Ed Carpenter and Marco Andretti come to mind. You also seem to have forgotten that Dana met the wall at Indy last year during practice in a very dramatic fashion. That's why he only had three IRL starts in 2005.

Miller spoke up on a serious issue and had the guts to write when his commentary would be most effective. We should all admire him for that.

[Napoleon]

Well John Oreovicz seems to agree with Miller.

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/columns/story?seriesId=1&id=2385343

[Insomniac]

I disagree. Robin said what I bet many people on this forum were thinking. His death was tragic, but those are the circumstances that may've contributed to it. People always want answers, it's just sometimes people don't like them.

[Fio1]

Wrong - last lap is the last lap, not the current lap.

I said fast lap, not last lap.

I.E Sharp had 2 laps recorded in that practice session, the best being a 53 second. I'm not sure if he hit the timing light after the crash or not, but the fact remains that he was not up to full song. Dana had 3 laps recorded, the best being in the 27's, therefore, he was on a flyer. Sharp was not up to speed when Dana was. That is a big key in this deal.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=213015&FS=IRL

[mueber]

Every word Miller has said or written about this tragic incident has merit, except for droning on about sprint cars and midgets.

The standards for admission to open wheel these days are pitifully low, and many, who ought to be competing in the Runoffs, instead are playing at being big-time professional race car drivers. Paul Dana was one of those, so is Ed. Carpenter. There have been many before, and many of them were in CART and are in Champ Car. Saying so does not make one a "sum bag," especially if it leads to some meaningful reforms.

[Insomniac]

Exactly. And, the guy should have respected that and shut his trap. What is the point of this article? The guy won in the feeder series, did 3 races with no problem last year in IRL, past his rookie test at Indy. What the heck?

I mean how low can you go than to kick a dead man in the balls? :( :thumdown:

Oreovicz says this in his article:


Dana made an inauspicious three-race IndyCar debut to start the 2005 season. At Phoenix, he crashed in practice and was three seconds a lap off the leader's pace in the race, getting lapped every eight laps before he was black-flagged into the pits. At Indianapolis, he suffered a season-ending accident in practice that left him with a broken back.

[chop456]

Miller has a habit of telling the truth and a great many on both sides don't like it.

[Insomniac]

I said fast lap, not last lap.

I.E Sharp had 2 laps recorded in that practice session, the best being a 53 second. I'm not sure if he hit the timing light after the crash or not, but the fact remains that he was not up to full song. Dana had 3 laps recorded, the best being in the 27's, therefore, he was on a flyer. Sharp was not up to speed when Dana was. That is a big key in this deal.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=213015&FS=IRL

Your stats are pointless. Were you at the race? It's all electronic. If a car crashes and crosses the S/F line, they get a time for the lap. Ever occur to you that on Lap 1 Sharp got up to speed and during Lap 2 the crash occurred and he slowed down? There can be any number of explanations based on just lap times. You can not put them in context.

[FTG]

"I was hard on the brake and downshifting when I saw this blur go by me on the left," said veteran Scott Sharp, who reacted to the yellow light and his spotter's command to slow down.

"He just didn't know what the hell he was doing," said a former Indy 500 winner.

Robin's not the only one saying it. I thought Dana had lots of time to slow down. Obviously, I wasn't the only one. The timing is awkward, but Miller's comments are relevant now because I think the IRL is going to try for 33 in May and I didn't think there will be any Champ Car or cup drivers available.

[Napoleon]

I said fast lap, not last lap.

It doesn't matter, it tells you nothing about the current lap. Sharp was not near the timing line when he stood on the brakes so whatever his time was on that lap may bear no relevance to how fast he may have been going prior to standing on the brakes. And you avoid addressing the in car video from Sharp.

Plus Buddy L in the ESPN article I link to agrees with what Sharp's video shows.

[jonovision_man]

Rookies make mistakes. This one cost him his life.

That's racing. Maybe he wasn't the fastest guy out there but he was as ready as most rookies.

Nobody really knows why he didn't slow down immediately, maybe he didn't quite hear the communication, didn't see the lights, who knows?

jono

[Cam]

Even Cavin (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060327/SPORTS01/303270007) is questioning what happened


Rahal team member Paul Dana slams into wrecked car at 176 mph despite warnings to slow down for it

[Andrew Longman]

The timing is awkward, but RM is doing his job. As a journalists and professional commentator on the sport it is his job to say things that other will not.

As usual, RM p!ssed off more than a few, but this is what he does for a living, and hopefully it will have some positive effect on the sport.

Foi1, I know you're upset and it shows you are a good person, but what RM said all too true. Meira might not be the best driver out there, but he did lead the team in points last year and still didn't keep his job. BR DOES need three cars out there because TG needs to fill the field. Its the only reason AGR has 4 cars and FIVE at Indy.

Yes Dana did all that was asked of him and many have done less to get a ride. By those rules he was more than deserving, but RM point is the rules are wrong.

The rules are wrong because the sport is messed up and has been for a very long time. Let's just hope that the sport is now on the mend and that Dana's life and death can get a bit more meaning by signaling a point when the sport reversed its direction

[spinner26]

Not only was Robin doing his job, he spoke of his and Dana's conversation regarding the very subject, drivers not being ready to run those speeds in a circle for a couple hours side by side.

Dana, Miller said, was excited about getting back out on the track to prove the nay sayer's wrong.

For a guy or gal to do it the way Dana did, in my book is comendable. Get a degree, work PR, turn wrenches, go to driving school, climb the ladder and take the opportunity when it comes to ya.

RIP PD #17 :(

[Grunschev]

I don't follow the IRL, so I don't feel it's my place to judge whether Dana was in over his head or not. It was an unfortunate, tragic accident.

I haven't seen any video of this, and won't go out of my way to find any. But from the description, it reminds me very much of an accident several years ago in Phoenix. It was during the race instead of practice, so it was on national television. When it happened, I was sure it was a double fatality. A driver many thought was over his head had an accident and had come to a stop sideways across the track. The yellow flag flew, and the yellow lights came on around the track. A rookie didn't seem to notice the lights and continued at speed, passing other cars. He slammed into the other car at nearly full speed.

In this case, luckily, both drivers walked away unhurt. The driver in over his head? Hiro Matsushita. The rookie? Jacques Villeneuve. [Bobby Unser was one of the announcers. Until that wreck, I thought the rookie's name was "Bill Nuff" because of the way Bobby mangled it.]

Villeneuve made a rookie mistake and later became a champion. Dana made a similar rookie mistake and paid with his life. Dana may very well have been in over his head, but I don't think this one incident proves it.

Igor

[RacinM3]

I'm with Fio on this one. It's not as if the guy had just stepped into a racing car. And the time to get all uptight about the decades old tradition of ride buying is not the day a widow is told about her husband's death driving a race car. Have some tact and at least wait a bit before writing the piece, or, here's a thought, if you're so concerned, write it before a death occurs.

Great, great point about Villeneuve and Matsushita in the post above this one.

[TrueBrit]

I agree with what he says, but think his timing is atrocious.....

[Winston Wolfe]

I'm with RM3 on this one...

hate to point this out, as many others have, but there have been plenty of ride buyers with insufficient high level open wheel seat time tooling around in CCWS the past few years, and certainly a few whilst it was still CART.

Racing, practice, qualifying and yes, even test days (RIP Tony Renna) are still pretty damn dangerous when you are in an OW car on an oval. I believe they have come a LONG way in terms of safety measures, skewed to CCWS of course, but there are still certain things that can happen given the type of accident that just happened.

Miller could have waited, but then again, there is a certain amount of shock value the story has right now (every news show and "bottom line" broadcast has been showing it this AM), so Miller may still be wrong? Is there any lesson to be learned from this wreck, other than the obvious ? Many sad days to follow for the Dana family, and this story certainly doesnt help.

[G.]

I agree with what he says, but think his timing is atrocious.....Yep.

Unforgiveable timing, imo.

[Andrew Longman]

Yep.

Unforgiveable timing, imo.

Welcome to the world of the 24/7 media machine. It must be fed.

RM had to run that piece when he did, even if he was holding his nose doing it (and I'm not saying he was). That's the nature of the news business these days as this gets yapped about on every TV, radio, newspaper and internet board for the next 24 hours.

If he had waited, few would be paying attention when he spoke. They'd be on to the next story.

We don't have to like it, nor should we, but that's the way it is.

[JoeBob]

Initially, I thought the timing was bad, but I'm not so sure.

A week from now, people will have moved on and the cars will be back on track in St. Pete. The time to discuss is when it is fresh in everyone's mind.

As we discuss, ChampCar teams are filling empty seats. This is something that needs to be discussed in relation to those vacancies as well.

[Fio1]

All I know is that it was obvious that Dana was up to speed (his previous lap speed). This was an oval, where I doubt very much they have the same brake package they have at road courses, therefore they don't stop on a dime. If Sharp, who was obviously not going as fast as Dana, stopped so suddently, it might have spooked Dana that he concentrated on passing Sharp (on the outside) and then went low beacuse he thought Carpenter was high, which he was for a while.

At that speed s**** happens quickly. Spotter have to wait a good 1/2 second after hitting the botton before talking or the driver can't hear it. There were a lot of cars on the track, some going quick, some just getting up to speed. Carpenter hit the wall stayed high, then came down. I don't think it's fair to put 100% blame on a 'rookie' mistake and end it right there and then. Especially, 10-Hours after the guy died.

RM might as well p*ss on his grave. The guy gave his life for his passion. Put everything he had, all his effort to make it to the top, did it by the IRL book, and then RM has the audacity to say he didn't belong after he tragically got killed? What is his family going to think when they read this? :thumdown:

Unless RM had all the info, including spotter to drive tape with data to show where Dana was on the track at the time. All the data from Sharp, Lazier and Carpenter he jumped the gun big time and basically kicked Paul Dana when he was dead. I doubt very much he had all that 10-hours after the fact. :shakehead

[fourrunner]

If people don't like Robin, say so, don't cage it in some "outrage" about disrespect for Paul Dana, or his wife

Where is the Outrage that they had the Race at all ... The Winning, the High fives by the "disrespectful" crews.. the outrageous laughter of Chip Ganassi ...
Helio not mentioning Paul at all ... ABC with its silly after race hoopla and awkward questions by the Bubble head Blonde !!

Now I personally don't think the race should have been canceled ... I think Robins timing was more than correct .. and his commentary was spot on... plus he showed Paul Dana respect in the article ... certainly more than some in the series did !

It appears a bit sanctimonious, that Robin should hold his opinions back .. while The Circus went on with just a prayer and an acknowledgement that Paul Dana once existed ... then its Party Time because "That's the Way Paul would have wanted it " !

If people single out Robin for outrage, keep looking around, there was plenty of insult to Paul Dana all day if we're setting up markers & drawing lines !!

[FanofMario]

I think the article was spot on and it has to be said. Our own series is having its annual 'buy-a-seat' rotation and we have all seen the carnage that can and will occur on roads and streets.

IMO Robin was doing his job by stating his piece.

[pchall]

I'm with RM3 on this one...

hate to point this out, as many others have, but there have been plenty of ride buyers with insufficient high level open wheel seat time tooling around in CCWS the past few years, and certainly a few whilst it was still CART.

And CCWS and erstwhile CART fans ragged on those underprepared ridebuyers mercilessly. Case in point, Nelson Philippe in 2004 and 2005. Two full seasons later many still doubt him while others (including his fellow drivers) are now beginning to see signs that he merits the seat he has for 2006.

[devilmaster]

RM might as well p*ss on his grave. The guy gave his life for his passion. Put everything he had, all his effort to make it to the top, did it by the IRL book, and then RM has the audacity to say he didn't belong after he tragically got killed? What is his family going to think when they read this?

Dude, thats the truth. Just because he did everything by the IRL rulebook to be there, doesn't mean he deserves it. If I won powerball tonight, one could assume that I lose the extra weight, take a few racing courses, drive some formula BMW next year, Atlantics the year after that, then buy my seat into a champcar. 3 years from money to bigtime. (and i'd hire corky to head my fan club ;) )

Sound silly? The star of Malcolm in the Middle basically said that above scenario earlier this year. He doesn't deserve it either. But no-one is going to say anything to stop him because he's famous, may bring publicity to a series and has money.

I would hope that Robin would be no different with this article if the guy's name is Paul Dana, Jack Miller, Hiro Matsushita, Geoff Boss, or Steve Micallef (aka, me). You may complain about the timing of the article, and that is quite debatable. The gist of the article is spot on.


Unless RM had all the info, including spotter to drive tape with data to show where Dana was on the track at the time. All the data from Sharp, Lazier and Carpenter he jumped the gun big time and basically kicked Paul Dana when he was dead. I doubt very much he had all that 10-hours after the fact. :shakehead

I would assume you are right. But i'd also assume John Oro from ESPN didn't have it. Curt Cave-in didn't have it. Mike Harris, AP writer didn't have it.

But they have all written basically the same thing in the last 24 hours since Dana's death, (so perhaps we should say shame on all of them). Why was he going so fast so late after the yellow came out. Its obvious to them as it is to me, that Dana was going awefully faster than others who cleared Carpenter cleanly before Dana arrived. They all ask if Dana's lack of experience played a factor. I don't think Robin convinced all of those other writers to agree with him.

They all saw the same thing, and have the same questions.

[RacinM3]

If people don't like Robin, say so, don't cage it in some "outrage" about disrespect for Paul Dana, or his wife

Where is the Outrage that they had the Race at all ... The Winning, the High fives by the "disrespectful" crews.. the outrageous laughter of Chip Ganassi ...
Helio not mentioning Paul at all ... ABC with its silly after race hoopla and awkward questions by the Bubble head Blonde !!

Now I personally don't think the race should have been canceled ... I think Robins timing was more than correct .. and his commentary was spot on... plus he showed Paul Dana respect in the article ... certainly more than some in the series did !

It appears a bit sanctimonious, that Robin should hold his opinions back .. while The Circus went on with just a prayer and an acknowledgement that Paul Dana once existed ... then its Party Time because "That's the Way Paul would have wanted it " !

If people single out Robin for outrage, keep looking around, there was plenty of insult to Paul Dana all day if we're setting up markers & drawing lines !!

Fourrunner, I don't mind Miller, I actually like most of his pieces. I wouldn't say I'm "outraged", just more annoyed at his timing. While yes, it's best to "strike while the iron's hot" in term of the short attention span of the American public, that doesn't mean that tact should be thrown to the wind.

As far as the show going on, for the most part, that's how it's been done throughout the history of motor racing, as I know you know. Just think, if San Marino 1994 had been cancelled after Roland's death, Senna would probably be retired somewhere in Brazil right now. That didn't happen, though, and there's no outrage about that.

As far as the celebrations by various IRL'ers yesterday, if that's how it was, that's classless. I didn't watch, though, so I can't comment. They didn't spray champagne or that kind of celebratory stuff, did they?

[nrc]

I think it's fair to question the sensitivity and timing of Miller's comments. But his assesment of whether Dana belonged behind the wheel of an Indy car matches opinions that were posted here long before Dana's tragic accident and I never saw anyone argue with them then.

[devilmaster]

As far as the celebrations by various IRL'ers yesterday, if that's how it was, that's classless. I didn't watch, though, so I can't comment. They didn't spray champagne or that kind of celebratory stuff, did they?

I'll give weldon credit where its due. He realized, more than Fatassi, how one should react at the end of that race. I don't believe he smiled once getting out of the car, and he didn't high five his team like you think he would. A somber look on his face, he was shaking hands with the team, and it was clearly out of respect for the situation.

Too bad Fatassi didn't follow his lead.

[fourrunner]

Fourrunner, I don't mind Miller, I actually like most of his pieces. I wouldn't say I'm "outraged", just more annoyed at his timing. While yes, it's best to "strike while the iron's hot" in term of the short attention span of the American public, that doesn't mean that tact should be thrown to the wind.

As far as the show going on, for the most part, that's how it's been done throughout the history of motor racing, as I know you know. Just think, if San Marino 1994 had been cancelled after Roland's death, Senna would probably be retired somewhere in Brazil right now. That didn't happen, though, and there's no outrage about that.

As far as the celebrations by various IRL'ers yesterday, if that's how it was, that's classless. I didn't watch, though, so I can't comment. They didn't spray champagne or that kind of celebratory stuff, did they?

I'm just saying that the ENTIRE DAY was a case of Bad Timing ... But at least on the various "Champ Car Forums" Robin Miller seems to be getting the "Treatment" more than the other MORE outrageous happenings of the day !

I saw the end & the interviews yesterday, and almost all the Sports Shows covering the Event ... It was an awkward time ... some handled it better than others ( Dan Wheldon was the best IMHO, and I pick on him relentlessly )

My point wasn't to demean those who spoke out against Robin, but to say he should be pilloried for his opinion's timing seems just looking for a scapegoat, and there were more outrageous things that happened pretty much all day !

The Race went on as it should ...but by doing so it opens the door for all sorts of pitfalls !

[DagoFast]

The truth is rarely popular.

That said, it had to be a difficult article to write, and it took guts to publish it right away.

I thinks Robin's hope is; it's time team owners in ANY series take a long hard look in the mirror, and re-evaluate who your taking cash from. Even if the team owner can live with the worst case possible scenario, the sport would be much better served with stricter driver requirements than who can bring a check.

Or we can be all PC and pretend not to know what we all know deep down, in some strange "tribute" to Paul Dana.

24 hours later, all the mainstream media is focusing on his inexperience. Where's the outrage at the Today show or CNN?

[G.]

24 hours later, all the mainstream media is focusing on his inexperience. Where's the outrage at the Today show or CNN?Lazy-*** media, can't think up their own ****.

[Racing Truth]

I agree with what he says, but think his timing is atrocious.....

Agreed. At least wait until the man is buried. That's my problem. Not that she'll be checking a computer anytime soon, but I would not have wanted his wife seeing articles saying her husband didn't belong on the track just hr. after his death.

The content is 100% accurate, the CONTEXT is awful.

[Insomniac]

Initially, I thought the timing was bad, but I'm not so sure.

A week from now, people will have moved on and the cars will be back on track in St. Pete. The time to discuss is when it is fresh in everyone's mind.

As we discuss, ChampCar teams are filling empty seats. This is something that needs to be discussed in relation to those vacancies as well.

The media has already moved on. On ESPN.com, Dana's death was moved from a breaking news box to just another headline in hours, and the NCAA Tournament took over the front page moving the headline even further down.

[Insomniac]

All I know is that it was obvious that Dana was up to speed (his previous lap speed). This was an oval, where I doubt very much they have the same brake package they have at road courses, therefore they don't stop on a dime. If Sharp, who was obviously not going as fast as Dana, stopped so suddently, it might have spooked Dana that he concentrated on passing Sharp (on the outside) and then went low beacuse he thought Carpenter was high, which he was for a while.

8 seconds to go from ~210 to ~175MPH? Something abnormal happened.

[Winston Wolfe]

The content is 100% accurate, the CONTEXT is awful.

(Arthur Fonzarelli) - "Exact-a-mundo" :thumbup:

[rosawendel]

24 hours later, all the mainstream media is focusing on his inexperience. Where's the outrage at the Today show or CNN?

funny, all i seem to find are stories and photos of how danica reacted to it, because, after all, that's really what's important to us.

idiot media buzzards. :mad:

[fourrunner]

I'm reminded of an Old "MAD Magazine" Cartoon from the 1960's called "Izzie & Harried" which was a take off of the Old "Ozzie & Harriet" TV Show ...

Harriet would get up at 6AM each morning,( dressed in earings, high high heels, and a Smart Dress with Apron ) go out and get the paper, and proceed to "Cut Out" all the "Bad News" from the paper so Ozzie wasn't upset to start the day ... The Visual of Ozzie reading the paper which was falling apart was hilarious, but he was spared the "Trauma" of the news of the day !

[Racing Truth]

I'm gonna repeat:

Imagine you are a friend or loved one of Paul Dana. What would you think, if by chance, you read something saying Paul had no business being out there?
By implication, its blaming the victim, who BTW, can no longer defend himself.

Is it true? Yes. It will also be true after the funeral, and that's my beef.

[jonovision_man]

8 seconds to go from ~210 to ~175MPH? Something abnormal happened.

Someone posted this on TF... I'm not sure this vindicates him, but he *did* hit some debris moments before the crash. Could have changed his courss slightly, although it doesn't explain the speed.

http://www.teamjuicyracing.com/vids/dana1.wmv

jono

[RaceGrrl]

Since when is the media sensitive to the family in situations like this?

I make my living off the evening news
Just give me something-something I can use
People love it when you lose,
They love dirty laundry

Well, I coulda been an actor, but I wound up here
I just have to look good, I don’t have to be clear
Come and whisper in my ear
Give us dirty laundry

Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em all around

We got the bubble-headed-bleach-blonde who
Comes on at five
She can tell you ’bout the plane crash with a gleam
In her eye
It’s interesting when people die-
Give us dirty laundry

Can we film the operation?
Is the head dead yet?
You know, the boys in the newsroom got a
Running bet
Get the widow on the set!
We need dirty laundry

You don’t really need to find out what’s going on
You don’t really want to know just how far it’s gone
Just leave well enough alone
Eat your dirty laundry

Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down

Kick ’em when they’re up
Kick ’em when they’re down
Kick ’em when they’re stiff
Kick ’em all around

Dirty little secrets
Dirty little lies
We got our dirty little fingers in everybody’s pie
We love to cut you down to size
We love dirty laundry

We can do the innuendo
We can dance and sing
When it’s said and done we haven’t told you a thing
We all know that crap is king
Give us dirty laundry!

[Spicoli]

Don;t take this personally, but Don Henley sucks. Really sucks.

:p

[FTG]

Imagine you are a friend or loved one of Paul Dana.

Imagine you're a reporter and in a couple of weeks you're going to be covering the Indy 500 where there may be a dozen more drivers, even more inexperienced than Dana, driving even faster than Dana. Imagine you’re going to be interviewing them and getting to know their families. Does keeping your mouth shut about inexperience give you a cleaner conscience?

[RaceGrrl]

Don;t take this personally, but Don Henley sucks. Really sucks.

:p


I know he sucks, but the song fits. :gomer:

[mueber]

This is no time to be sensitive or PC. While experienced and even great drivers have been and will be killed, Dana had no business being in the car. The video of the accident makes that obvious, and there are a lot more like him in the IRL and in Champ Car.

The best thing anyone can do for the Paul Danas of the world is to tell them to take there money, go home, and get some experience. Not only is there nothing wrong with saying it loud and clear, it’s the only decent thing to do.

[Napoleon]

If Sharp, who was obviously not going as fast as Dana . . .

That is not at all obvious and you have yet to say anything which leads me to believe it is true, and several people including myself have totally debunked your use of lap times under the circumstances as being relevant.

I bet you in those cars 7 or 8 seconds is more then enough time to bring them to a dead stop, even with speedway brakes.

[Andrew Longman]

That is not at all obvious and you have yet to say anything which leads me to believe it is true, and several people including myself have totally debunked your use of lap times under the circumstances as being relevant.

I bet you in those cars 7 or 8 seconds is more then enough time to bring them to a dead stop, even with speedway brakes.

I don't want to go looking for it because I have seen enough video of the crash, but from Sharps in car I believe you can see that they initially were nearly side by side and that Dana shot ahead when Sharp braked. By the time Sharp got the scene he was at a crawl.

[Insomniac]

I'm gonna repeat:

Imagine you are a friend or loved one of Paul Dana. What would you think, if by chance, you read something saying Paul had no business being out there?
By implication, its blaming the victim, who BTW, can no longer defend himself.

Is it true? Yes. It will also be true after the funeral, and that's my beef.

Paul knew people didn't think he belonged there as shown in his quote. Do you think his friends and family also knew he was participating in a very, very dangerous profession and knew some of those concerns about his ability to race at the top level?

The timing may be terrible, but people were whispering/thinking about this yesterday. RM just put it on paper first. This is what happens when you live your life in the public eye. We don't discuss the death of every person in the local obituaries. He waa in the public and people want to know why it happened right away.

[Fio1]

This is no time to be sensitive or PC. While experienced and even great drivers have been and will be killed, Dana had no business being in the car. The video of the accident makes that obvious, and there are a lot more like him in the IRL and in Champ Car.

The best thing anyone can do for the Paul Danas of the world is to tell them to take there money, go home, and get some experience. Not only is there nothing wrong with saying it loud and clear, it’s the only decent thing to do.

OK, where do you want them to get experience at? Would you have told that to Buddy Lazier when he first showed up at Indy and didn't qualify or crashed out by himself at the beggining of the race on his first start some 3 years before winning the race? Would you have told that to Scott Brayton as well, when he showed up with nothing more then Formula Ford experience?

I'm not against Robin Miller by any means. I ussually agree with him; instead the sprint car stuff. I've read his stuff for 10 years now. Since he was fired from starnews, I never went back to that site; one I use to visit daily! It's putting Paul Dana in the same boat as Vitolo, Racin Gardner or Jack Miller is an insult. Those guys never won a race in anything, let alone finish top 3 in a major championship. Dana finished second in the points in IPS and won a race at the hardest track these guys race at; he won at Milwaukee! This is a driver's track, not some flat-out draft fest. Secondly, in practice he was a few tenths behind past Indy 500 winner, Buddy rice, his teammate. He qualified 9th out of 20, beating a few former Indy 500 champs by the way.

Last year he finished 10th in a Toyota powered Hemelgarn on his debut. There are people that ran all year that did not finish 10th in a race, let a lone driving a Hemelgarn Toyota. At PIR he had problems. But if the set up isn't right, there is nothing you can do at Phoenix. At Indy he crashed in practice. But, how many times has 'veterans' like Scott Sharp crashed in practice in his life time at Indy? 20 or so? He destroyed 3 cars in 1 weekend ones. Why are we just talking about Indy last year and PIR and forgeting about Homestead last year or Milwaukee in 04?

If Dana never ran upfront in IPS, let alone win a race and finsih second in the points. (Say what you want about IPS, but Jeff Simmons, and the Australian Go-Kart World Champion are no w*nkers!). If he didn't qualify 9th, was always a good second off Rice & Danica, then maybe. But labeling him a 'guy that didn't belong' and then saying that Sprint car and midget drivers like the old days, bla, bla, is 100% ridiculous. Considering the fact that Mr.SprintCar himself (Steve Kinser) made a 'tunnel vision' rookie mistake himself when he showed up at Indy. And, he wasn't going 210 MPH when he ran in the back of Salazar (or was that Jack Hewitt?). Whatever, neither set the world on fire like RM was suer they would...

Paul Dana spent all last year working to get back in the car after breaking his back. I could only imagine what his family must have felt last year. And, now Robin Miller kicks the man when he's down big time (cue Don Henley song), by putting him on the level with a bunch club racers who never won anything. The ironic thing about this scenario is that Buddy Lazier and Scott Brayton among others were much less experienced then Dana when they first showed up to Indy Cars, and now are considered legends of the brickyard...... :shakehead

[KLang]

Buddy Lazier, a legend of the brickyard? :eek: :rofl:

[Andrew Longman]

Foi1

I think Robin is making a different point.

Did people whisper about Dana's lack of experience? Yes

Did that get him killed? Maybe. Maybe not.

What's different between now and 25 years ago is there was much less doubt about whether the guys on track were ready. And to me the most notable was that a current driver had to say you were ready even to take your rookie test.

That means that a future peer was willing to risk his life with you. For a racer to stand up in front of his peers and say that was taken very seriously because that racer was accountable to all the other racers. It wasn't simply left to an owner or sanctioning body. I believe the NHRA is still that way.

What's not fair to Paul is to have those whispers out there before and all the questions after his death.

What's also not fair is unhappy situation you described. Just how is he supposed to get experience? He did basically everything that was available and many do less before getting into these machines.

I guess it would be nice see the sport healthy enough to have drivers sign on with team as third and fourth drivers who get testing and practice time, and the occasional race when the owner decides its safe to throw another car out there. Meanwhile they race full time in the feeder system until they are ready to move up completely.

[Gnam]

While experienced and even great drivers have been and will be killed, Dana had no business being in the car.

The timing may be terrible, but people were whispering/thinking about this yesterday. RM just put it on paper first.
I think most of this is the racing community whistling past the graveyard. Leaping on Dana's "inexperience" to insulate themselves with the "it wouldn't happen to me" mentality. As someone mentioned earlier, mistakes in auto racing can kill, but the sobering part is anyone, regardless of background or age can make a mistake.

And **** Robin Miller for printing paddock gossip meant to make everyone else feel better, instead of the family. Imagine telling a heart attack victim's wife, his death was his own fault.

The "truth" about this death is it forces us to recognize that every driver is risking his life whenever he straps in.

[Insomniac]

I think most of this is the racing community whistling past the graveyard. Leaping on Dana's "inexperience" to insulate themselves with the "it wouldn't happen to me" mentality. As someone mentioned earlier, mistakes in auto racing can kill, but the sobering part is anyone, regardless of background or age can make a mistake.

And **** Robin Miller for printing paddock gossip meant to make everyone else feel better, instead of the family. Imagine telling a heart attack victim's wife, his death was his own fault.

The "truth" about this death is it forces us to recognize that every driver is risking his life whenever he straps in.

I don't know what happened. I'm certinly not saying he wasn't qualified. I'd personally expect everyone to slow down when they are alerted to a crash regardless of their experience level. That's the most puzzling part to me. I've never raced before, so maybe someone can explain why your first reaction isn't to slow down.

[Ed_Severson]

I think it's helpful to keep Miller's perspective in mind when evaluating both what he wrote and when he wrote it.

If we're honest about it, we know that this guy has been around as a motorsports journalist for a long, long time, and he's got a pretty good relationship with an awful lot of people involved in the operations of the sport, on both sides of the aisle. That said, it seems extremely unlikely to me that Miller would be writing anything, particularly something on such an important topic, simply for the pleasure of seeing his name in print someplace. It's far more likely that he sees an opportunity to hopefully exact some meaningful change at a time when he has everyone's attention, which is not a situation he's likely to find himself in very often.

And, if we're honest about it, we all know that having everyone's attention probably wasn't going to last until Tuesday, and maybe not even until today.

From that perspective, I don't see any real difference between publishing yesterday or today, but there's a real difference between publishing yesterday and tomorrow, and that gap gets bigger every day that goes by.

Calling him a "scumbag" for putting pen to paper and capturing what 98% of us were thinking to ourselves just because of when he did it seems completely unfair. If you want to complain about his message, that's another story, but complaining about his timing just seems disingenuous, since we all know deep down that unless he wanted to write an absolutely toothless piece that wasn't going to accomplish anything at all, he didn't really have a choice.

[FanofMario]

I think it's helpful to keep Miller's perspective in mind when evaluating both what he wrote and when he wrote it.

If we're honest about it, we know that this guy has been around as a motorsports journalist for a long, long time, and he's got a pretty good relationship with an awful lot of people involved in the operations of the sport, on both sides of the aisle. That said, it seems extremely unlikely to me that Miller would be writing anything, particularly something on such an important topic, simply for the pleasure of seeing his name in print someplace. It's far more likely that he sees an opportunity to hopefully exact some meaningful change at a time when he has everyone's attention, which is not a situation he's likely to find himself in very often.

And, if we're honest about it, we all know that having everyone's attention probably wasn't going to last until Tuesday, and maybe not even until today.

From that perspective, I don't see any real difference between publishing yesterday or today, but there's a real difference between publishing yesterday and tomorrow, and that gap gets bigger every day that goes by.

Calling him a "scumbag" for putting pen to paper and capturing what 98% of us were thinking to ourselves just because of when he did it seems completely unfair. If you want to complain about his message, that's another story, but complaining about his timing just seems disingenuous, since we all know deep down that unless he wanted to write an absolutely toothless piece that wasn't going to accomplish anything at all, he didn't really have a choice.


Agreed! :thumbup:

[Hard Driver]

I think the piece is a bit off about Dana's qualifications, but not off about a rookie mistake tragically costing him his life.

It was noted how he was in the feeder series for two years. He had driven ovals at high speed before. Every driver needs to have a first time in the big leagues (if you want to call the IRL that). And as far as I can tell, every single rookie is not experienced enough, which is why they are rookies. Maybe Nigel Mansell may be the rare exception.

Now Dana had oval experience. He SHOULD have known to back out quickly when a yellow comes on and look down the track. He make a mistake. Who knows why he did not slow down, but several drivers, not just Scott Sharp, said he did not slow down. I personally don't think there is much question that however long after the yellow came out (8 seconds maybe) that he should have slowed enough to miss the spun car. And the fact that he did not was a tragic miscalculation, because of inexperience.

But like I said, all rookies are inexperienced. All Rookies make mistakes. Racing is dangerous and the risks are high. In this case the odds were against him and he paid the ultimate price. Terrible and tragic, but unless you are going to condemn all of racing, it is part of the sport.

And the part of the accident that has escaped criticism is that there was a car across the track to begin with. Should Ed Carpender be spinning across the track a couple of laps into practice?

[Fio1]

I don't know what happened. I'm certinly not saying he wasn't qualified. I'd personally expect everyone to slow down when they are alerted to a crash regardless of their experience level. That's the most puzzling part to me. I've never raced before, so maybe someone can explain why your first reaction isn't to slow down.

This another thing that gets me. Do we have fact that radio communication worked between spotter and driver during that session. Did they do a radio check and Dana responded? All I read was that the spotter said something to Dana. Did he agknowledge it? Did he hear it? Was he on the radio talking to the crew at the exact moment the spotter keyed the mike? All that speculation had yet to be determined. I doubt very much. RM got the answers to those questions 10 hours after Dana's death.

Robin Miller used cowboy journalism saying the guy had no experience and solely blaming that. Like someone else mentioned, RM has years of racing coverage experience. This is why I jump down his throat not the other hacks who cover racing only when someone dies or Danica Patricks gets married. It's like all of us on this thread discussing Russian Politics; could you imagine the B.S we'd spit out? No one in here knows anything about that. The CNN hacks and ESPN stick and balls guys don't know anything about racing or what experience you need.... :shakehead

[oddlycalm]

Right article, wrong day for RM.

ABC and Ganassi on the other hand really do deserve an unqualified big thumbs down. ABC juiced up the pre-race with video of the accident and Fat Floyd acted like it had never happened. Wheldon handled himself as well off the track as on it.

oc

[Ed_Severson]

Rahal himself has said that "there was no problem with communication," and all of the cars are equipped with a series of safety lights to indicate a yellow flag, somewhat courtesy of Paul Tracy. The track itself also has yellow lights stationed at various places.

You can rattle off statistics about Dana's performance all you like, but winning an IPS race certainly does not preclude you from making a dumb mistake in a new or unfamiliar situation. Maybe that's what happened, and maybe it isn't, and we may never know which one it is. What we do know is that there are several redundant systems in use to alert a driver to this sort of situation, and there has not been a problem reported with any of them. We also know that several guys who have quite a bit more experience than Dana (and you, for that matter) in situations like that one seem to question whether he made a poor choice. And, for just about anybody who has followed racing for more than a week or two, we know that eight seconds is an awfully long time -- much more than enough time to slow down from 210 mph to well below 175 mph.

Carpenter's role in this shouldn't be overlooked. I'm not suggesting that this is his fault, but I think a lot of us have legitimate concern about whether he really should be out there. It's possible something broke on the car, but given his record, driver error seems likely. If you're backing into the wall two laps into a practice session with what should be the most stable car you're going to have all weekend, that raises some questions about whether you should be there at all.

[racer2c]

There has been much said already about the context, timing and perceived callousness in Robin's piece with many stating he wrote what 98% were already thinking. Well, I am in the 2%. I didn't know Paul Dana from the man on the moon until yesterday and hadn't a clue as to his 'preparedness'. That said, with my knew knowledge I would like to see if any evidence will surface that shows it was beyond his means of control i.e. hardware failure, cut tires etc before I just chalk up this as "he was in so deep he didn't know how to handle a yellow". The guy had been in races before and I'm assuming he had handled yellows previous to his first IRL yellow. Was it even his first IRL yellow? There are and have been ride buyers who are potential dangers to themselves and other competitors, but to say this was Paul's fault because of his inexperience is disrespectful to the deceased man. If the evidence shows no reason why he didn't slow other than just 'choking', than god bless the man, rest in peace racer and be glad he didn't take anyone with him.

The timing of Robins article is irrelevent to me.

[NismoZ]

Tact? From news reporters about an incident involving a fatality? Forget it. Disregard the tact and look at how RM very boldly disects the incident, directly identifies causes but leaves others to decide what the solutions might (should) be. Compare this to the Earnhart fatality results where you see huge steps forward taken in the area of car and driver safety. In that regard his tragic loss was NOT in vain. It would be criminal if this most recent tragedy didn't lead to similar positive changes in the areas of driver qualifications and preparation, and I think necessarily in track type! Anger is always a part of sad times like this but I can't see how complaining about the person who tells his version of the truth about it serves any larger purpose. The words of other drivers were no less "insensitive" but I think they gave them honestly. "He had no idea what was going on around him" "He didn't know what the hell he was doing." "It was a rookie mistake." As noted it may have been only a matter of inches and this could easily have been a double fatality. (the 2nd also perhaps a driver who was making rookie mistakes and shouldn't have been there?)

[Tifosi24]

For the sake of racer2c's comment about him possibly having a mechanical problem or something, if you observe the accident from the T2 camera looking down the backstretch and Scott Sharpe's on-board it is clear that Dana did in fact hit a large piece of debris, and to my unknowledgeable assessment, causing a right front suspension failure and pulling him toward Carpenter's car. Granted, if you break it down further you see that this happened very close to the stationary car, so I don't know if it would have had any effect on the outcome, and thankfully (if you can use that word) I think the suspension failure saved the life of Carpenter because it moved Dana's car further up the track. Macabre description aside, it is important to remember that a fan of the sport lost his life yesterday. I don't know if anything could have saved Dana's life in that shunt but we can only hope that something comes from this incident.

[Andrew Longman]

Don't be too quick to credit DEs death with increasing safety in the sport. NASCAR was pitifully slow to required head/neck restraints and only last year disallowed the useless Hutchinson device as a solution. Bill Simpson was wrongly blamed by NASCAR for seat belt failures and had to sell his company. The Car of Tomorrow which moves the driver to a safer position with easier exit will not be fully on line until 09. And they still run ridiculous plate races.

Yes they have done much but they move at a snail's pace and might not at all if the press did not dog them. The competitors know they have very little say without being taken to the shed.

[gjc2]

I have three things to say:

First, I would cut Robin some slack. I think he's just angry that this tragedy occurred. I can only imagine how much worse I would be feeling if I had known Paul Dana.

Second, I acutely feel sorry for Tony George. After all the money he spent to have a 20 car field and all the money he paid Gene Simmons to build some excitement he ended rolling off 16 cars in front of a small, subdued crowd.

And third, Gene Simmons gets to see the really really terrible part of motor racing.

George

[devilmaster]

IAnd third, Gene Simmons gets to see the really really terrible part of motor racing.

Don't think he's worried too much....

http://www.homesteadmiamispeedway.com/uploads/photo/586260E4E5764207A78AF0F760CA799B.jpg

[fourrunner]

What an Old Fool Gene is !!

[NismoZ]

I absolutely credit DE's death with an increase in safety measures there. They may indeed be moving at a snail's pace but then must have been barely moving at all prior to that. Without shifting to a separate topic of discussion just let me repeat my point that I hope this most recent accident points out weaknesses in a system of racing as opposed to technical advancements in racing safety. I'm suggesting safety advancements in driver preparedness, qualifications and equipment compatibility with the racing venue. On that last point just read what Graham Rahal, Robby Gordon and Rusty Wallace said regarding IRL racing. I believe them completely. Most of us have been saying the same for years. This was only 2 cars but it was certainly "The Big One."

[Insomniac]

And the part of the accident that has escaped criticism is that there was a car across the track to begin with. Should Ed Carpender be spinning across the track a couple of laps into practice?

I thought I read somewhere he had a tire go down.

[Insomniac]

Right article, wrong day for RM.

ABC and Ganassi on the other hand really do deserve an unqualified big thumbs down. ABC juiced up the pre-race with video of the accident and Fat Floyd acted like it had never happened. Wheldon handled himself as well off the track as on it.

oc

On the clip shown on ESPN.com, Brent Musburger seems way too excited for an accident that killed someone. I mean, he wasn't doing that live.

[Fio1]

You can rattle off statistics about Dana's performance all you like, but winning an IPS race certainly does not preclude you from making a dumb mistake in a new or unfamiliar situation. Maybe that's what happened, and maybe it isn't, and we may never know which one it is.

Fair enough. But to label a guy 'over his head' and 'unqualified' is uncool. Especially when he is dead and when others have won Indy Car races in the last 10-years, including the Indy 500 without ever winning in the lower formula (Ward, Lazier, Calkins, etc).

My theory behind being qualified to move up is as follows. Win in the lower formula, finish top 5 in the points, pass a rookie test, then you could move up. Dana did that; I don't seem to remember Buddy Lazier doing that, nor his brother Jacques! And, why the heck isn't Robin Miller saying anything about those guys?

[Insomniac]

I absolutely credit DE's death with an increase in safety measures there. They may indeed be moving at a snail's pace but then must have been barely moving at all prior to that. Without shifting to a separate topic of discussion just let me repeat my point that I hope this most recent accident points out weaknesses in a system of racing as opposed to technical advancements in racing safety. I'm suggesting safety advancements in driver preparedness, qualifications and equipment compatibility with the racing venue. On that last point just read what Graham Rahal, Robby Gordon and Rusty Wallace said regarding IRL racing. I believe them completely. Most of us have been saying the same for years. This was only 2 cars but it was certainly "The Big One."

It took a NASCAR icon like DE to get the change. IIRC, two other people died before him in the same type of accident.

[Insomniac]

There has been much said already about the context, timing and perceived callousness in Robin's piece with many stating he wrote what 98% were already thinking. Well, I am in the 2%. I didn't know Paul Dana from the man on the moon until yesterday and hadn't a clue as to his 'preparedness'. That said, with my knew knowledge I would like to see if any evidence will surface that shows it was beyond his means of control i.e. hardware failure, cut tires etc before I just chalk up this as "he was in so deep he didn't know how to handle a yellow". The guy had been in races before and I'm assuming he had handled yellows previous to his first IRL yellow. Was it even his first IRL yellow? There are and have been ride buyers who are potential dangers to themselves and other competitors, but to say this was Paul's fault because of his inexperience is disrespectful to the deceased man. If the evidence shows no reason why he didn't slow other than just 'choking', than god bless the man, rest in peace racer and be glad he didn't take anyone with him.

The timing of Robins article is irrelevent to me.

I didn't know of him either. But, when I saw the footage of that crash and read the article talking about the track lights, in car caution and spotter relaying the info, seeing him go that fast, the thought crossed my mind. And I can't think of any explanation besides inexperience. I'm sure he's experienced a yellow flag. I sure hope their wasn't some collosal failure to warn him. If there was one, then maybe because it was a practice session, all the cars slowing didn't raise some concern. Something very wrong happened.

[Insomniac]

For the sake of racer2c's comment about him possibly having a mechanical problem or something, if you observe the accident from the T2 camera looking down the backstretch and Scott Sharpe's on-board it is clear that Dana did in fact hit a large piece of debris, and to my unknowledgeable assessment, causing a right front suspension failure and pulling him toward Carpenter's car. Granted, if you break it down further you see that this happened very close to the stationary car, so I don't know if it would have had any effect on the outcome, and thankfully (if you can use that word) I think the suspension failure saved the life of Carpenter because it moved Dana's car further up the track. Macabre description aside, it is important to remember that a fan of the sport lost his life yesterday. I don't know if anything could have saved Dana's life in that shunt but we can only hope that something comes from this incident.

From the video linked earlier, it does look like the suspension broke, but still doesn't explain why he was going that fast at that point.

[Andrew Longman]

I absolutely credit DE's death with an increase in safety measures there. They may indeed be moving at a snail's pace but then must have been barely moving at all prior to that. Without shifting to a separate topic of discussion just let me repeat my point that I hope this most recent accident points out weaknesses in a system of racing as opposed to technical advancements in racing safety. I'm suggesting safety advancements in driver preparedness, qualifications and equipment compatibility with the racing venue. On that last point just read what Graham Rahal, Robby Gordon and Rusty Wallace said regarding IRL racing. I believe them completely. Most of us have been saying the same for years. This was only 2 cars but it was certainly "The Big One."

If that's your point I agree completely.

Let's hope Dana has more impact on changing the sport than Adam Petty, Irwin, Nemechek, Tobias and Richie Evans

[NismoZ]

Yes, exactly. If that is what you meant by the slow reaction I totally agree. Do NOT let that happen.

[Ed_Severson]

Fair enough. But to label a guy 'over his head' and 'unqualified' is uncool.

Sometimes the truth hurts. Like I said, we may never know whether Dana was really a victim of something beyond his control or just made a stupid mistake. But, in the long run, I think the benefits of acknowledging the possibility that it was a stupid mistake and using the opportunity to try to make sure it doesn't happen again to somebody else far outweighs the downside of being labeled "uncool" by a bunch of internet throttle jockeys.

Whether such behavior merits the label "scumbag" is open for debate, I suppose. But you certainly won't see me using that label unless somebody comes with some hard evidence that Miller is out to accomplish nothing other than grabbing some attention for himself.


And, why the heck isn't Robin Miller saying anything about those guys?

My guess is he would have had either of them been killed or killed somebody else with what potentially was a piece of reckless driving.

Ultimately, though, it doesn't matter whether Miller wrote this piece ten years ago or yesterday, or whether he wrote it about Paul Dana or Buddy Lazier. The only thing that matters is that he's writing it in a set of circumstances where it might actually do some good; a 1996 expose of Buddy Lazier's lacking resume would not likely have produced anything of note.

The only real problem I see with Miller's piece is that he didn't take it far enough. It may be true that Dana had no business being behind the wheel of a racing car at that level. However, he knew the risks and was willing to accept them, and his more qualified competitors also knew the potential risks of racing with him and were willing to accept them too. I would guess that until the established drivers start making some noise about not wanting to be put at risk by unqualified drivers, this sort of thing will continue, despite Robin's efforts, because those guys are all far too macho to publicly indicate any reservations about it. Robin would probably have had a better chance of success had he put some pressure on guys like Castroneves and Kanaan to stand up and say that they've had enough of the craziness that puts them on the track with guys like Carpenter and Foyt IV.

[Fio1]

Sometimes the truth hurts. Like I said, we may never know whether Dana was really a victim of something beyond his control or just made a stupid mistake.

First, you say 'the truth hurts', then you say 'we may never know'. Well, which is it? If you (R.Miller) write an article like that, you better know that it is indeed the truth.... :shakehead



The only real problem I see with Miller's piece is that he didn't take it far enough. It may be true that Dana had no business being behind the wheel of a racing car at that level.

Again, with it 'may be true'. Well, it maybe be not. And, giving a dead guy the benifit of the doubt is not part of cowboy journalism.....

IMO, Miller jumped the gun a little with this article.

[Ed_Severson]

First, you say 'the truth hurts', then you say 'we may never know'. Well, which is it?

Evidently, it doesn't matter to some of you which one it is, and there's no reason it can't be both. All I'm saying is that if it is true that Dana was, as Miller put it, "in over his head," you'd still be here bitching about the column and calling Miller a "scum bag." You said it was "uncool" to say it, but if it actually is true, what's the crime in reporting the story as it happened? You're indicting Miller not for the veracity of what he wrote, but merely for writing it at all. If that's your approach, what the hell difference does it make to you whether he's right or wrong?

The reality is that we might not ever find out for certain whether Dana made a mistake or was simply a victim of circumstance, but Miller certainly has expressed his opinion on which it is, and a first-cut examination of the evidence points to his conclusion. He's absolutely entitled to his opinion, which carries quite a bit more weight than some of the others expressed around here, and there's simply nothing productive that can possibly come out of petulant mud-slinging just because you don't like the guy's message.


If you (R.Miller) write an article like that, you better know that it is indeed the truth.... :shakehead

Likewise, you could easily make the statement that if you're going to call him a "scum bag" for writing it, you better know that he wasn't right. And so far there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of evidence to suggest that Miller is anything but spot-on in his assessment.


IMO, Miller jumped the gun a little with this article.

Fair enough ... as long as you're willing to admit that you jumped the gun beaning him over the head for it. For all the posturing you've done, your experience pales in comparison to his when it comes covering an event of this nature, and he probably has a much better overall picture of what happened yesterday than you do. Whether you're inclined to agree with his judgement or not, your opinion doesn't carry as much weight as his, and pissing and moaning about what he wrote isn't doing you any favors.

It's understandable ... something like this hits everybody hard, and nobody really wants to think about the reaction family members might have after reading his column. But given what he knows about what happened, it could very well be that Miller feels it would be more irresponsible to wait or say nothing than to speak his mind now, and I'm certainly not going to indict him for doing what he thinks is most responsible. Neither should you. At least he stands a chance of accomplishing something; you're just out here blowing off steam to no particular end.

[Fio1]

All I'm saying is that if it is true that Dana was, as Miller put it, "in over his head," you'd still be here bitching about the column and calling Miller a "scum bag." You said it was "uncool" to say it, but if it actually is true, what's the crime in reporting the story as it happened?

But, it isn't true! What more experience should the guy have gotten? If he ran midgets and sprints instead of Formula Fords, Formula Dodge & IPS, he'd me more qualified? Heck no! We all say how useless Michner, Tyler, T-Bone, Beechler and Yeley were in these cars. Dana qualified 9th for this race, finished 10th in this race last year and finished second in IPS points. He was NOT over his head! And, if it was true, which it isn't, I would not be bitching and moaning, I'd back him up. If someone sucks, I'm the first one to say it. You must not have read many of my posts.



Fair enough ... as long as you're willing to admit that you jumped the gun beaning him over the head for it. For all the posturing you've done, your experience pales in comparison to his when it comes covering an event of this nature, and he probably has a much better overall picture of what happened yesterday than you do. Whether you're inclined to agree with his judgement or not, your opinion doesn't carry as much weight as his, and pissing and moaning about what he wrote isn't doing you any favors.

In the beggining of 1996, Robin Miller rated Steve Kinser better in an Indycar then Alex Zanardi. I laughed when I read that. Later that year Zanardi won more races then anyone in Indycars. Ya, he knows it all. :rolleyes:

Who cares about what favors this post is doing me? The only thing I am doing is standing up for Paul Dana, who unfortunately can't stand up for himself.

[Ed_Severson]

But, it isn't true!

In your opinion, of course.

Expressing an alternate opinion doesn't really make one a "scum bag."

And please, let's give the "he qualified 9th!" thing a rest. Holding your foot to the floor for a lap while you're completely alone on the track doesn't automatically qualify you as no longer being "in over your head," nor does it, as I've already pointed out, preclude you from making a mistake when an accident occurs in the traffic ahead of you.

As we've covered numerous times, there is plenty of evidence that Dana made a mistake, and that mistake cost him his life. Thus far, you've provided absolutely no evidence to the contrary. There's plenty of experience in racing that Dana didn't have, and unfortunately, putting in a hot qualifying lap one day doesn't mean you can't screw up the next.


Ya, he knows it all. :rolleyes:

Nobody ever said he did. What I have said is that his opinion carries more weight than yours, particularly given his access to the people who were eyewitnesses to what happened. I'd wager a hefty sum that Miller knows quite a few more details about the situation than you do, and he put all the information together and drew a conclusion which you don't like.

BFD. It's not his job to make you happy.


You must not have read many of my posts. The only thing I am doing is standing up for Paul Dana, who unfortunately can't stand up for himself.

That's a waste of time, really. Miller has as much as admitted that Dana did what the current system requires, but that doesn't mean he was ready, and frankly, the hard evidence of the situation seems to indicate that he wasn't, and there's no defense against reality. His piece is more an indictment of the current state of affairs in open wheel than it is of Paul Dana, and it's certainly no affront to Dana's character to say that maybe he wasn't very good at his chosen profession.

If you want to waste your time shouting at the top of your lungs over something as insignificant as somebody else's perception of Dana's job performance, by all means, knock yourself out. It really doesn't matter in the long run. Miller's column was aimed at much more important things than a simple skill assessment; it's too bad you're too wrapped up in your bizarre "with another break or two it could have been me" campaign to see that.

I've read enough posts from you to know that you think just about every driver to come down the pike was the greatest thing since sliced bread because you raced against him one time or another. I suspect a big part of this tirade is nothing more than you being pissed off at the idea that had it been you, Miller would have said maybe you were in over your head, and your healthy ego can't handle that. It's a pity, really, because we lost a person, and you can't seem to grasp Miller's broader point because you're too busy being pissed off that Miller didn't rate Dana as highly as you do as a driver.

I'm sure this will prompt another rant about Dana finishing 2nd in IPS, and therefore it can't be true that he was in over his head, and Miller wrote one time back in 1847 that Bobby Unser was going to suck when he made it to Indy Cars in 125 years and that made you laugh, so he must be a total dickwad to have written what he did and we should all listen to your overly-emotional opinion instead, even though you can't seem to connect it with the reality of what happened yesterday in an even remote fashion.

While that sounds exciting, I think I'll pass on reading it. You're way too emotional about this for any rational thought to get through to you now. In a few days, though, when the point catches up with you, you might figure out that in your furor to condemn Miller for "jumping the gun," you did exactly what you accused him of.

[Fio1]

In your opinion, of course.

Expressing an alternate opinion doesn't really make one a "scum bag."


No. But, coming to conclusion without all the facts and basically insulting a dead man less then 10-hours after he died does in fact make him a scum bag. If the situation was black and white, like the lady who ran into the parked ARCA car some 25 seconds after the crash last year or so, then fine. In this case it isn't black and white. There was debris. Cars coming up to speed. Carpenter going from the top of the track to the bottom. There was a lot of stuff going on, including Dana passing two cars.


...and you can't seem to grasp Miller's broader point because you're too busy being pissed off that Miller didn't rate Dana as highly as you do as a driver

I grasped the point fine. That is exactly why I brought up Buddy Lazier and Scott Brayton. Two guys who either won Indy or the pole at Indy. Two guys who didn't have the creduntials Dana had before coming to Indycars.

And, I never said I rated Dana highly or not. The fact is I didn't know anything about Paul Dana other then he finished top 3 in IPS points and had that loyal sponsor before this accident. I don't really follow IRL to closely, I like the last 20-laps of a race like yesterday's when I catch it on TV, but don't really care who goes where and whatever. I never met Dana, never shared a track with Dana, don't know anybody who worked with him. So, on that point you are wrong.

[Fio1]

I suspect a big part of this tirade is nothing more than you being pissed off at the idea that had it been you, Miller would have said maybe you were in over your head, and your healthy ego can't handle that.

That's 100% untrue.

The number one reason for starting the thread was about his family. If this accident happened last year, I may not have ever said anything. But, the fact that Paul Dana spent all year recuping from serious injuries and working hard to get back in the car is deserving of something. He put his life into getting this ride (opportunity). I'm sure his wife had to go through hell during that time, knowing that something could happen and then to read something like this from Robin Miller must be unbelievably awful.

The end.

R.I.P Dude.

[TedN]

Another writer pulls no punches in his weekly column.

Link (http://tinyurl.com/powpa)

Ted

[NismoZ]

Very interesting and his conclusion is just the one I was trying to communicate above. As far as the tracks are concerned stats have been compiled at AR1 for injury causing accidents in CART/CC and the IRL from the last 10 years. They headline it as "CART/CC vs. IRL", I'd rather refer to the compilation as "Ovals vs. Street and Road Courses." I think none of us are surprised by these figures but perhaps we may be approaching a time when steps might be taken to change the way openwheel racing operates? In 10 years there have been 141 accidents with injury in the two series combined. Of those, 125 (89%) have been on ovals. I think we could safely say "Nine out of ten injuries in openwheel racing take place on ovals." Of those 141 accidents 99 occurred in the IRL, (70% of all the injury causing accidents) and 42 in CART/CC. All 99 (100%) from the IRL happened on ovals, while 26 of 42 (62%) were on ovals in CART/CC. I think one can then say "Of the 141 injury causing accidents in CART/CC & The IRL in the last 10 years only 16 (11%) have been on road and street courses." Can not statistics such as these be used to begin shaping a more secure future for openwheel racing here? I believe a series merger and a resultant drop in the number and percentage of ovals, while eliminating the more dangerous ones, (except IMS of course :shakehead ) is the first necessary step.

[NismoZ]

An FWIW stat...of the 141 injury causing accidents in the last 10 years of racing in CART/CC and The IRL, 23 of those (16%) have taken place on one track...IMS. (Considering the numbers of cars and miles run there in tests, practice and qualifying/race, that stat might show it to be a comparitivly safe race track. (?)

[Andrew Longman]

Another writer pulls no punches in his weekly column.

Link (http://tinyurl.com/powpa)

Ted

"Yet while the depleted grid raced on in the IRL's season opener Sunday in Homestead, NASCAR's Nextel Cup series was racing at Bristol Motor Speedway in Tennessee without a single driver who bought his way into the 43-car field."

Not entirely true. Michael Waltrip own his NAPA and Aarons sponsorship. I think Jr owns the Bud sponsorship. Many of them do it and some like Buckshot Jones would not have been racing without the sponsorship they bring.

But his larger point is correct and its because NASCAR has done its job to make sure there is a market for the sponsorship the teams sell. USAC never did that and that's why CART was formed (and while they did well to increase sponsor value they did not do enough to eliminate ride buyers). TG tried to kill it in order to create a series for which there was no demonstrated demand. With the loss of Indy CART teams became even more dependent on the manufacturers dole and it turned the economics of the sport on its head.

Only when CCWS was formed did the series owners think well about the value their can create for sponsors and tried to align costs with it. Now that the IRL has blown up, I deeply hope that CCWS can continue that line of series management and combined with Indy can produce the kind of economics that render the ride buyer a thing of the past.

[devilmaster]

And to add to Andrew's post:

Mcnutty should know by now that Adam Petty and the others didn't have squat to do with improvments in safety in NASCAR.

Only one man forced safety onto the France's. Saint Dale. And even then, NASCAR made sure to slow the improvment of safety to ensure, IMHO, that they could not be blamed for his death.

The other basalar skull fractures before Dale did jack **** to change NASCAR's ways.

[Insomniac]

Very interesting and his conclusion is just the one I was trying to communicate above. As far as the tracks are concerned stats have been compiled at AR1 for injury causing accidents in CART/CC and the IRL from the last 10 years. They headline it as "CART/CC vs. IRL", I'd rather refer to the compilation as "Ovals vs. Street and Road Courses." I think none of us are surprised by these figures but perhaps we may be approaching a time when steps might be taken to change the way openwheel racing operates? In 10 years there have been 141 accidents with injury in the two series combined. Of those, 125 (89%) have been on ovals. I think we could safely say "Nine out of ten injuries in openwheel racing take place on ovals." Of those 141 accidents 99 occurred in the IRL, (70% of all the injury causing accidents) and 42 in CART/CC. All 99 (100%) from the IRL happened on ovals, while 26 of 42 (62%) were on ovals in CART/CC. I think one can then say "Of the 141 injury causing accidents in CART/CC & The IRL in the last 10 years only 16 (11%) have been on road and street courses." Can not statistics such as these be used to begin shaping a more secure future for openwheel racing here? I believe a series merger and a resultant drop in the number and percentage of ovals, while eliminating the more dangerous ones, (except IMS of course :shakehead ) is the first necessary step.

How much of this is also attributable to the way the IRL cars crash on ovals causing injuries (backwards impact) vs ChampCar (RHR slammed into the wall in Milwaukee backwards and "walked" away).

[RacinM3]

NASCAR has done its job to make sure there is a market for the sponsorship the teams sell.

bingo!

[Fio1]

"Yet while the depleted grid raced on in the IRL's season opener Sunday in Homestead, NASCAR's Nextel Cup series was racing at Bristol Motor Speedway in Tennessee without a single driver who bought his way into the 43-car field.".

What a tool this guy is. I guess when Tucker Carlson said Canadian were like your retard cousin you see on Thanksgiving....he was talking about this knob. :rolleyes: :shakehead

What about Brent Sherman? He's an ex BDPS driver with Serta sponsorship (family), who couldn't hack it in open wheel and decided to race ARCA & Busch instead. Never won a race, never came close either and brought his sponsor to Cup. There is the same stuff happening in Nascar as open wheel racing, people just don't see it like that. 1/2 the Busch field and ARCA are rental rides!

This same yo-yo, said that the following:

"Dana had reached the Infinity Pro Series -- a minor league stepping stone -- and did reasonably well, winning two races and a couple of poles.

But remember that the IPS cars throw out around 350 horsepower -- which is about half that of the IndyCars to which Dana aspired.

Rahal-Letterman Racing ran three race cars last year with solid pros Buddy Rice, Vitor Meira and rookie sensation Danica Patrick.

Rice -- a former Indy 500 winner -- and Meira had all the credentials necessary for what it takes to go racing at 300 km/h.

And Patrick had worked her way through the labyrinth of minor series from go-karts to Formula Atlantic since the age of 10. "


Excuse me dude, but where did Danica and Buddy rice come from before reaching Indycars? Formula Atlantics! Some 100 HP less then IPS, and they don't race on super speedways.... ;) Not to say that Atlantics isn't a good school, just making a point using 'HP', like dumb a$$ did. Also, if I seem to remember correctly, Meira bought his way into the Menard ride....

This guy is a really moron. He should be sued for slander....

[chop456]

Or libel - whatever it takes.

[Andrew Longman]

Very interesting and his conclusion is just the one I was trying to communicate above. As far as the tracks are concerned stats have been compiled at AR1 for injury causing accidents in CART/CC and the IRL from the last 10 years. They headline it as "CART/CC vs. IRL", I'd rather refer to the compilation as "Ovals vs. Street and Road Courses." I think none of us are surprised by these figures but perhaps we may be approaching a time when steps might be taken to change the way openwheel racing operates? In 10 years there have been 141 accidents with injury in the two series combined. Of those, 125 (89%) have been on ovals. I think we could safely say "Nine out of ten injuries in openwheel racing take place on ovals." Of those 141 accidents 99 occurred in the IRL, (70% of all the injury causing accidents) and 42 in CART/CC. All 99 (100%) from the IRL happened on ovals, while 26 of 42 (62%) were on ovals in CART/CC. I think one can then say "Of the 141 injury causing accidents in CART/CC & The IRL in the last 10 years only 16 (11%) have been on road and street courses." Can not statistics such as these be used to begin shaping a more secure future for openwheel racing here? I believe a series merger and a resultant drop in the number and percentage of ovals, while eliminating the more dangerous ones, (except IMS of course :shakehead ) is the first necessary step.

I fortunately or unfortunately I think the make up of the schedule will be based on pure economics and business strategy and less than on safety. But the end result may be the same.

OW racing needs to put a product out there that people want to watch. If the most attractive product happens to be less safe than other possible products, that's not going to rule it out. Racing will always be dangerous. That's part of the appeal. But it has to have acceptable risk. And the publics appetite for blood is limited. They by and large like risk taking, not death and injuries

But they also have to put a product out there that they can afford to present and which make money. Given that three-day "fesitvals of speed" seem to generally draw better than the fairly small demonstrated market for open wheel oval racing, and CART showed that they could not grow until they went roadracing, and roadracing costs less in terms of crash damage, I think its likely that any future schedule will have a smaller dose of ovals and they will be carefully selected for economic and hopefully safety reasons.