Looks like the IRL owners are indeed threatening to force a merger

[Andrew Longman]

http://www.tbo.com/sports/autoracing/MGB78OV2DLE.html

Interesting Roger wants a seat at the table but isn't likely to get it.

Interesting Rahal might take Danica and walk

Interesting that KK sees that he can get the key IRL teams in his camp without passing control to them or allowing too much input

[Racing Truth]

http://www.tbo.com/sports/autoracing/MGB78OV2DLE.html

Interesting Roger wants a seat at the table but isn't likely to get it.

Interesting Rahal might take Danica and walk

Interesting that KK sees that he can get the key IRL teams in his camp without passing control to them or allowing too much input

And read it again. Kevin tried getting this done with IRL owners, and it ended poorly. My guess is both men (KK and TG) are sick of the pettiness of fellow owners and decided, finally, to go around them.

Penske :shakehead STFU, douche. :flame:

[Andrew Longman]

And read it again. Kevin tried getting this done with IRL owners, and it ended poorly. My guess is both men (KK and TG) are sick of the pettiness of fellow owners and decided, finally, to go around them.

Penske :shakehead STFU, douche. :flame:

Yes I read that but given how it was written it is unclear how it ended badly. "Ruffled feathers" or something like that. But by whom? RP? PN and GF? or TG? It makes a little difference?

My guess is that KK felt if RP et al would just come over to CCWS, play nice and be a quiet owner just like everyone else then Honda would surely have left the IRL too, TG would have no teams. Game, set, match. Maybe they would still run this year in the IRL until the DP01 is in place but everyone would know and TG would have to negotiate.

When RP showed hesitation to learn new tricks (and some of his comments in the last week shows he is decidedly grumpy about a loss of control), the KK could go a route where RP and other would at least threaten to leave the IRL for some destination (even if it is to the CCWS under conditions they felt were less than perfect) in which TG will have to negotiate. Again. Game, set match.

Either way KK has about the same bargaining position and winds up in the same place

[FTG]

Penske just can't believe no one gives a **** about him anymore. When you sell out to ISC and sell out to yen, no one needs to talk to you because they know you're a spineless whore who'll do whatever you're offered money to do.

[rabbit]

"What we could do first is build a schedule and say, 'All right, these are the races we could run based on what both series have committed and don't have for 2007,'" Penske said in a one-on-one conversation in his motor coach during the weekend at Homestead. "After that, we'd ask everyone around the table who's committed to run those races. Then we would go around and determine what engine and what car. Yeah, because that worked so well the first time it was tried. :rolleyes:

Roger may have a chair, but he doesn't realize that everyone else is playing Red Rover now.

[DagoFast]

Penske just can't believe no one gives a **** about him anymore. When you sell out to ISC and sell out to yen, no one needs to talk to you because they know you're a spineless whore who'll do whatever you're offered money to do.

Ding ding ding! :thumbup:

Karma. Sometimes it takes awhile, but it sure is sweet when it comes around. :D

Now, pull up yer depends and go cry in the corner old man! :cry:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Penske just can't believe no one gives a **** about him anymore. When you sell out to ISC and sell out to yen, no one needs to talk to you because they know you're a spineless whore who'll do whatever you're offered money to do.

:rolleyes:

Or maybe they realize that racing is a business, and not some CCFantasy where money apparently grows on trees and making business moves in your own best interest is "taboo."

[FTG]

Or maybe they realize that racing is a business,

Prostitution is a business. Tony Soprano is a business man. Roger has earned lots of money, he hasn't earned any respect. It sounds like to me, like he wishes he had respect. Of course, you have neither, so I can see how you'd settle for one or the other. Or even a second date.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Roger has no respect? The man is one of the most successful team owners in the sport. I don't agree with Roger's stance, but I'd think he has a bit more respect in the racing community than some canuck posting on a message forum with his head in teh clouds.

[Dr. Corkski]

Roger has no respect? The man is one of the most successful team owners in the sport. I don't agree with Roger's stance, but I'd think he has a bit more respect in the racing community than some canuck posting on a message forum with his head in teh clouds.He will get more respect from FTG if he changes his team name to ,,,Penske,,,Racing,,, :gomer:

[racer2c]

Roger has no respect? The man is one of the most successful team owners in the sport. I don't agree with Roger's stance, but I'd think he has a bit more respect in the racing community than some canuck posting on a message forum with his head in teh clouds.

Stop staring at your Penske Racing poster you got free at the CGP in '99. Penske is a mere shadow of his former self. As was already pointed out, selling out to the yen, ISC and TG has rendered him...YAWN.

[skaven]

I like KK's response to Penske wanting a seat at the big boy's table. :laugh:


Kalkhoven isn't willing to entertain an open forum, though, believing it wouldn't be productive.

"We're not talking about democracy here," he said. "I think if everyone puts their input in, it's going to be tough to get resolution. Certainly Tony and I are consulting with all of our partners and getting a flavor of what it is they want, and indeed, there are some different opinions."

I've lost track of Penske's holdings with Ilmor, but it seems like he would be expendable in a combined series.

I can't see him leaving Indy though. He's got it bad. :gomer:

[Lizzerd]

Roger has no respect? The man is one of the most successful team owners in the sport. I don't agree with Roger's stance, but I'd think he has a bit more respect in the racing community than some canuck posting on a message forum with his head in teh clouds.

Penske has a lot of respect as a team owner and probably a business man. Would I want to fight a war with him from the same foxhole? NO!

[Kiwifan]

I always thought Roger Penske was the ultimate professional. Not only the Teams and their dress code but just his whole contribution to racing. If I were to meet RP I would thank him for all he has given to racing over the years, then I'd berate him for what he has done these past four years.

I remember when wallbanger sent me a Penske 100 cap. The pride that I felt wearing that hat. A Penske hat for this Kiwi. A Penske 100 hat from an American fan ('banger) given as a gift. I took that hat to Surfers and people were in awe. Now that hat lies in my closest, not worn but despised. Roger, you blew it for this fan mate. Thanks for the memories but the respect I had for you is gone.

Rusty.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Penske has a lot of respect as a team owner and probably a business man. Would I want to fight a war with him from the same foxhole? NO!

Agreed, but your statement is completely different than the CCFannie line of "Pimpski has no respect he sells out to everyone to pay for his racing." Hate to break it to you FTG, but that is what professional racing is about!!

[racer2c]

Agreed, but your statement is completely different than the CCFannie line of "Pimpski has no respect he sells out to everyone to pay for his racing." Hate to break it to you FTG, but that is what professional racing is about!!

O'Gorman= closet Andretti fan.

Come on out, you've taken the first step.

[Sean O'Gorman]

No, I hate the Andrettis. Besides, there is a world of difference. If AGR lost Honda, they'd be screwed. Penske probably has many more options to pay for his racing if he so desired.

[Skater_36]

http://www.tbo.com/sports/autoracing/MGB78OV2DLE.html

Interesting Roger wants a seat at the table but isn't likely to get it.

Interesting Rahal might take Danica and walk

Interesting that KK sees that he can get the key IRL teams in his camp without passing control to them or allowing too much input

Agree with KK about leaving the team owners out of the mix. A few have already helped the situation enough so thanks but no thanks. ;)

[KLang]

CCFantasy

CCFannie line

Sean, if you have issues with crapwagon why don't you take them over there?


Back on topic: Penske doesn't seem to much say in open wheel these days. He also seems not to like it. :laugh: Tough.

[Accipiter]

Interesting Rahal might take Danica and walk


To NASCAR.

[devilmaster]

To NASCAR.

I'm surprised he hasn't already. Rahal has made good money on his meal ticket. I suspect he'll go to NASCAR anyways if the money he makes with her dries up in OW.

[Easy]

Penske is totally irrelevant just like the Indy 500 because anyone dealing with Honda, Toyota and ISC is obviously small potato's.

Let's talk about something important, like what color will Paul Stoddart's DP-01's be? will the mirrors work? and that Foster's should spanser the Minardi ChampCar team because that would be cool. :gomer:

[nrc]

:rolleyes:

Or maybe they realize that racing is a business, and not some CCFantasy where money apparently grows on trees and making business moves in your own best interest is "taboo."

Leave other forums out of it.

There are a lot of successful businessmen out there. That doesn't mean that they deserve respect. I'm not a fan of a business or businessmen. I'm a fan of a sport.

It's true that racing is a business and team owners have to run their business. But that business is providing a product. The ultimate success or failure of their business depends on whether anyone will care enough about that product to pay for it.

Does anyone still care about Penske? Will anyone pay the kind of sponsorship that he's accustomed to now that he has played ou the tobacco money and yen? He's managed to alienate fans on both sides and prove that both sides can get by without him. He's still a major team owner, but his status as the linchpin of open wheel racing has waned.

[Racing Truth]

Yeah, because that worked so well the first time it was tried. :rolleyes:

Roger may have a chair, but he doesn't realize that everyone else is playing Red Rover now.

Yep, I'm taking the hardline here too. They may be fine businessmen, but in terms of running a succesful, coherent racing ORGANIZATION, the owners were an utter failure.

I know many here are going to question that, and I want to make it clear: Regardless of the pettiness, greed, etc., that doesn't mean splitting the sport like TG did was in any way justified.

That said, facts are facts, and I do not want the inmates running the asylum again.

[mueber]

The likes of Penske and Ganassi dictating how the series is run, yeah; that’s worked really well in the past.

I used to be a big fan of Penske, but I now consider him to be a self-serving male appendage. I'd guess a lot of other folks feel the same way. His time is past, and the sooner he is dealt out of the future, the better.

Leave TG and KK to work it out is such a way that the inmates aren't running the asylum, and Penske will disappear. He wants a series run for his benefit. I want a series that benefits all the stakeholders by putting the fans first.

[FTG]

that is what professional racing is about!!

It's not how Paul Newman goes racing. People can have integrity and success, but like I said, it's hard for people who have neither to figure that out.

[Easy]

PL Newman the SCCA GT-1 driver or Newman-Haas Racing?

[Sean O'Gorman]

PL Newman the SCCA GT-1 driver or Newman-Haas Racing?

I heard Paul Newman is getting the Nobel Prize in Motorsports for his out-of-pocket contributions to Champ Car. If all his sponsorship dried up, he'd still field two Champ Cars with paid drivers out of his own bank account, because that is what honorable team owners do, and anyone else who follows their sponsors is a whore. :gomer: :gomer:

[racer2c]

I heard Paul Newman is getting the Nobel Prize in Motorsports for his out-of-pocket contributions to Champ Car. If all his sponsorship dried up, he'd still field two Champ Cars with paid drivers out of his own bank account, because that is what honorable team owners do, and anyone else who follows their sponsors is a whore. :gomer: :gomer:


Defender is that you? If the exCART owners who bailed to the IRL had even a quarter of the integrity of Paul Newman, there porbably wouldn't be an IRL.

Personally, I wouldn't bet against him on your sarcastic scenerio.

[rabbit]

I heard Paul Newman is getting the Nobel Prize in Motorsports for his out-of-pocket contributions to Champ Car. If all his sponsorship dried up, he'd still field two Champ Cars with paid drivers out of his own bank account, because that is what honorable team owners do, and anyone else who follows their sponsors is a whore. :gomer: :gomer:
The current sponsor drought is a direct result of team owners whoring themselves out for subsidies to the engine manufacturers. Team owners can't sell sponsorships for pennies on the dollar anymore. When Adrian Fernandez said he was going to the IRL because his sponsors wanted him to, what he meant was he was going because Honda wanted him to. Tecate and Quaker State both disappeared when Fernandez left. Now the subsidies are gone and sponsors won't pay full retail to put their name on the car.

Living off of subsidies and selling your product below cost is not good business. It's whoring yourself out to the highest bidder. :thumdown:

[Sean O'Gorman]

If you want to say that the decisions that Penske, Ganassi, etc. have made over the past 15 years have been detrimental to the sport, I won't argue that. I agree completely.

However, when you say that a team owner deserves no respect because he made an unpopular decision based on sponsorship, it is just ridiculous. Seriously, its like some people expect these guys to run their teams out of their pocket in the name of "integrity." :rolleyes:

Newsflash: There is little or no integrity in auto racing. It is just rich guys driving extremely expensive race cars in circles and occasionally into walls and graveltraps and such.

[racer2c]

I
Newsflash: There is little or no integrity in auto racing. It is just rich guys driving extremely expensive race cars in circles and occasionally into walls and graveltraps and such.

No doubt about that.

[FTG]

It is just rich guys driving extremely expensive race cars in circles and occasionally into walls and graveltraps and such.

Another reason why you should never move into your parent's basement, even racing starts to be depressing and you lose so much faith in humanity that Paul Newman becomes morally equivalent to Roger Penske.

[Tony George]

Another reason why you should never move into your parent's basement, even racing starts to be depressing and you lose so much faith in humanity that Paul Newman becomes morally equivalent to Roger Penske.

But he still has a tv to watch his favorite drivers! :gomer:

http://www.indycar.com/multimedia/fan_photo/approved/1143390636-tonyanddanweldonindrag.jpg

[fourrunner]

But he still has a tv to watch his favorite drivers! :gomer:

http://www.indycar.com/multimedia/fan_photo/approved/1143390636-tonyanddanweldonindrag.jpg


Good Lord ... Kanaan looks like Barbara Streisand ... Wheldon looks like.... well Dan Wheldon on a typical weekend !!

I can just picture them giggling, doing each others hair, excusing themselves to go powder their noses !!

Very Strange Group !! :eek:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Another reason why you should never move into your parent's basement, even racing starts to be depressing and you lose so much faith in humanity that Paul Newman becomes morally equivalent to Roger Penske.

Hmm, last I checked, personal insults aren't allowed on this forum. But I guess if you don't have a point to your posts, and can't do a countdown, you have nothing else to resort to. :gomer:

Please tell me how Paul Newman, in his role as a RACE TEAM OWNER, is somehow more moral than Roger Penske. Because he races in a series you like, and Roger doesn't?

[FTG]

Please tell me how Paul Newman, is somehow more moral than Roger Penske.

It was fun busting your balls when I thought there was hope for you, but if you can't tell the difference, I really worry about you.

[Racing Truth]

Leave TG and KK to work it out is such a way that the inmates aren't running the asylum, and Penske will disappear. He wants a series run for his benefit. I want a series that benefits all the stakeholders by putting the fans first.

Well said. :thumbup:

Look, in racing anyway, it appears you need a clear hierarchy. CART, as an organization, never had that, and as a result, the policy was never coherent, and was based purely on the self-serving whims of the owners. Sure, when times were good (i.e. before 1996), it was easy to just ride the wave; there were not tough decisions, as an organization, that had to be made. Post-'96, after Tony's power grab which took Indianapolis away from CART (yes, technically, it was a USAC event, but w/o CART it doesn't happen), the organization literally began to implode, self-destruct, culminating in the '03 bankruptcy.

KK saved CART as a RACING SERIES, and reinvigorated it as ChampCar. As an organizational philosophy, it was soundly trounced (largely by itself). God help us if we bring it back.

[G.]

You cut out Penske, 1): he retires, wizzed. or 2): we will have the Split, Vision 2.0 (tm).

The Merge involves TG, KK, GF, and RP, else, it fails. Toss a bone to NH, AGR, TCGR, some others, we have a solution.

IOW's, no way it'll happen.

I hope that I'm wrong. :(

[Racing Truth]

You cut out Penske, 1): he retires, wizzed. or 2): we will have the Split, Vision 2.0 (tm).

The Merge involves TG, KK, GF, and RP, else, it fails. Toss a bone to NH, AGR, TCGR, some others, we have a solution.

IOW's, no way it'll happen.

I hope that I'm wrong. :(

Look, if TG and KK bring it together, I triple-dog dare the owners to form their own series. They'll have what venues to work with again? Try next to zero (maybe Fontana and MIS), but again, no Indianapolis, Long Beach, Cleveland, etc.

Go ahead and embarass yourselves again fellas.

[nrc]

Hmm, last I checked, personal insults aren't allowed on this forum. But I guess if you don't have a point to your posts, and can't do a countdown, you have nothing else to resort to. :gomer:

You just came off a run of strawman attacks so you've got no room to talk. How can saying that you live with your parents be a personal insult? Haven't you said as much yourself?


Please tell me how Paul Newman, in his role as a RACE TEAM OWNER, is somehow more moral than Roger Penske. Because he races in a series you like, and Roger doesn't?Paul Newman has greater integrity than Roger Penske because he has stood by his stated position throughout the entire split. He has said that he believes that champ car is the right formula for the sport and he has actively fought attempts by his business partner Carl Haas to sell out that position by running in the IRL. Roger Penske has acted contrary to everything that he said about the IRL and Tony George with the split originally occured.

In short, business people shouldn't run their mouth about what's good for the sport and then turn around later act entirely contrary to that position on the grounds of running a business. If you're running a business with no pretense of integrity then just do it.

Bobby Rahal didn't sit up in front of multiple town hall meetings and say "I'm in champ car because that's what's right for my own personal business." He said that he was in Champ car because he believed that it was right for the sport. It's the pretense of acting for some other purpose and then using the business as an excuse that demonstrates the lack of integrity.

[Sean O'Gorman]

You just came off a run of strawman attacks so you've got no room to talk. How can saying that you live with your parents be a personal insult? Haven't you said as much yourself?

The difference is the context. Anyone can rip on me for anything they want in OT, and aside from a subject or two (that I've never mentioned and has never been brought up anyway), I don't really care what is said about me. Hell, usually it is entertaining. But I hardly see what my living situation has to do with the topic at hand.

[nrc]

Look, if TG and KK bring it together, I triple-dog dare the owners to form their own series. They'll have what venues to work with again? Try next to zero (maybe Fontana and MIS), but again, no Indianapolis, Long Beach, Cleveland, etc.

Go ahead and embarass yourselves again fellas.

I don't worry about another split from the owners, but Penske is manuevering to make sure his interests are looked after as usual and that could very well gum up the works.

I could see him putting his arm around Tony, "Look Tony, these guys don't know what Indy means. You can't give up 50% of your legacy when we're so close to turning this thing around. They can't spend like this much longer. Let's get the other team owners in here for a meeting. We can help you get the deal you deserve and make sure that our interests are looked out for as well."

[G.]

I don't worry about another split from the owners, but Penske is manuevering to make sure his interests are looked after as usual and that could very well gum up the works.

I could see him putting his arm around Tony, "Look Tony, these guys don't know what Indy means. You can't give up 50% of your legacy when we're so close to turning this thing around. They can't spend like this much longer. Let's get the other team owners in here for a meeting. We can help you get the deal you deserve and make sure that our interests are looked out for as well."Add THIS and yer screwed. Ignore THIS and yer screwed.

Penske, et. al. have to be a part of this, else it's TG and KK starting from scratch. Yet, if they ARE a part of this, there's no way it can be done.

Sorry, just feeling a little pesimistic tonight. Maybe it's the rain...

[nrc]

The difference is the context. Anyone can rip on me for anything they want in OT, and aside from a subject or two (that I've never mentioned and has never been brought up anyway), I don't really care what is said about me. Hell, usually it is entertaining. But I hardly see what my living situation has to do with the topic at hand.

You're asking us to split hairs. Don't put yourself in the dunk tank and then expect us to monitor whether only your pals are taking shots.

[racer2c]

You're asking us to split hairs. Don't put yourself in the dunk tank and then expect us to monitor whether only your pals are taking shots.

Best post ever. :thumbup:

[devilmaster]

You're asking us to split hairs. Don't put yourself in the dunk tank and then expect us to monitor whether only your pals are taking shots.

OT - but Devilmaster is still sitting in the corner working out the question: Dunk tank with Piranhas or Acid?


hmmmm....

[fourrunner]

Paul Newman has greater integrity than Roger Penske because he has stood by his stated position throughout the entire split. He has said that he believes that champ car is the right formula for the sport and he has actively fought attempts by his business partner Carl Haas to sell out that position by running in the IRL. Roger Penske has acted contrary to everything that he said about the IRL and Tony George with the split originally occured.

In short, business people shouldn't run their mouth about what's good for the sport and then turn around later act entirely contrary to that position on the grounds of running a business. If you're running a business with no pretense of integrity then just do it.

Bobby Rahal didn't sit up in front of multiple town hall meetings and say "I'm in champ car because that's what's right for my own personal business." He said that he was in Champ car because he believed that it was right for the sport. It's the pretense of acting for some other purpose and then using the business as an excuse that demonstrates the lack of integrity.


Paul Newman stands out ... He can't be lumped in with anyone !

He's partnered with a guy just like Penske ... but PLN keeps him balanced ... Yin & Yang ... the definition of a successful partnership !

[oddlycalm]

It's not how Paul Newman goes racing. People can have integrity and success, but like I said, it's hard for people who have neither to figure that out. True. When Mark Donohue passed it became very clear how much of an influence he had on the Penske team. Without him the integrity just wasn't there. Rick Mears revived it for a time, but he didn't have the kind of top to bottom influence in the organization that Donohue did.

Having been close enough to the Detroit Diesel Allison/Diesel Technology acquisitions and divestitures, the comment about not wanting to share a foxhole is right on the money.

Since KK speaks for Forsythe, Gentilozzi and Russo, and since Newman-Haas is very likely on the same page, it does appear that those that are being ignored and overruled are the large ex-CART teams in the EARL. Breaks my heart.... :D

oc

[Insomniac]

Yes I read that but given how it was written it is unclear how it ended badly. "Ruffled feathers" or something like that. But by whom? RP? PN and GF? or TG? It makes a little difference?

My guess is that KK felt if RP et al would just come over to CCWS, play nice and be a quiet owner just like everyone else then Honda would surely have left the IRL too, TG would have no teams. Game, set, match. Maybe they would still run this year in the IRL until the DP01 is in place but everyone would know and TG would have to negotiate.

When RP showed hesitation to learn new tricks (and some of his comments in the last week shows he is decidedly grumpy about a loss of control), the KK could go a route where RP and other would at least threaten to leave the IRL for some destination (even if it is to the CCWS under conditions they felt were less than perfect) in which TG will have to negotiate. Again. Game, set match.

Either way KK has about the same bargaining position and winds up in the same place

No one can make TG reunify. They can have all the engines, chassis and tracks, but they won't have Indy. He has all the money from the BY400 and can keep creating new series to run there in May and the same owners who jumped ship will pine away for Indy still. That is why there is no reunification unless TG is on board. So tryoing to go around him will presumably just make him madder, not capitulate or surrender.

[Racing Truth]

No one can make TG reunify. They can have all the engines, chassis and tracks, but they won't have Indy. He has all the money from the BY400 and can keep creating new series to run there in May and the same owners who jumped ship will pine away for Indy still. That is why there is no reunification unless TG is on board. So tryoing to go around him will presumably just make him madder, not capitulate or surrender.

Yes. Even if they were to FORCE capitulation, that'll pizz him off more, and in 10 or so yrs., OW Split v. 2.0 (or 3.0 if one counts '78).

[Andrew Longman]

Yes. Even if they were to FORCE capitulation, that'll pizz him off more, and in 10 or so yrs., OW Split v. 2.0 (or 3.0 if one counts '78).

Up until now no one could get TG to negotiate let alone capitulate.

Agreed, holding him down and stepping on his neck is not smart in the long term.

Having him know you could do it, but never actually threatening it, will earn his trust, even if he doesn't deserve it. And it will give the the (faux) sense of control and power he so badly needs (but which is also in truth rapidly slipping away)

[ChrisB]

True. When Mark Donohue passed it became very clear how much of an influence he had on the Penske team. Without him the integrity just wasn't there. Rick Mears revived it for a time, but he didn't have the kind of top to bottom influence in the organization that Donohue did.


http://www.netaxs.com/~gg1/race/poc/markandroger_poc71.jpg