Olson on Merger

[racer2c]

He had to get his .02 cents in. He claims his garage informant says an announcement will come at this upcoming 500.

He also thinks the tubro engine will lose to the 3.0 Honda. I don't know why he thinks that, I would think since Honda made a 2.65turbo they could again. hell, didn't someone mention recently that Honda had a warehouse stocked with their old Champ Car engines?



New chassis specs. I'm still not convinced the seat position of the IRL car is safe, and I'm not the only one. Drivers who have made the switch from Champ Car to the IRL complain of a bad angle and limited visibility. Of course, if the previous suggestion regarding turbos is followed, then Panoz already will have the edge on a fresh design. But, since it's doubtful that turbos will win out, the new generation of chassis built to accommodate the naturally aspirated engine should be redesigned with a seat position that's not quite as prone as the IRL's current models.

Link (http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/23050/)

[Insomniac]

He had to get his .02 cents in. He claims his garage informant says an announcement will come at this upcoming 500.

He also thinks the tubro engine will lose to the 3.0 Honda. I don't know why he thinks that, I would think since Honda made a 2.65turbo they could again. hell, didn't someone mention recently that Honda had a warehouse stocked with their old Champ Car engines?

Link (http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/23050/)

He also thinks the Panoz would basically be scrapped. Aren't there also noise limitations for most street races that would effectively eliminate an NA engine? I know most of us here favor ChampCar, but it really does seem like the new DP01 and 2.65L turbos make the most sense.

However, the one thing that favors Honda is money. If they're willing to pump money into the unified series, there really is no one else who could even attempt to step up. I don't see Ford doing it. So maybe they will go with the NA, but I would hope there would be plenty of time for them to dust off the 2.65. They wouldn't need to really do anything since is has effectively been detuned since they left.

[Wally]

I am all for unification............but let me be the first to say to Olson's slant.... :shakehead

[Andrew Longman]

Olson doesn't say why the 3.0 NA would win out and gives reasons why it shouldn't. So I don't get his point. Otherwise I agree with the article.

And I don't see Honda pumping money into the sport. If they can be around, they'll be around but they only pump money (especially into a losing series) if they can beat someone.

And I don't see any scenario where either series allow open competition among engine manufacturers anytime soon. That's exactly what the sport doesn't need right now (or ever?)

[Insomniac]

Olson doesn't say why the 3.0 NA would win out and gives reasons why it shouldn't. So I don't get his point. Otherwise I agree with the article.

And I don't see Honda pumping money into the sport. If they can be around, they'll be around but they only pump money (especially into a losing series) if they can beat someone.

And I don't see any scenario where either series allow open competition among engine manufacturers anytime soon. That's exactly what the sport doesn't need right now (or ever?)

If there is only 1 OW series and Cosworth is always a fall back option, I don't see the downside to bringing all that money back, especially if it helps to raise the awareness of OW racing from its current state.

[Accipiter]

IRL cars are ugly, unsafe, shouldn't be run on high banked ovals, and don't sound as nice as Champ Cars? Crap, he's been one of us all along.

[FTG]

And I don't see Honda pumping money into the sport.

Yoda's going to get a ton of publicity from NASCAR. Honda has to counter somehow. If Honda can't spend their money beating Yoda on the track, it makes sense to spend it getting potential Yoda buyers to come to "three day festivals of speed." And a rejuvenated Indy 500 if rumours are to be believed.

[Andrew Longman]

Yoda's going to get a ton of publicity from NASCAR. Honda has to counter somehow. If Honda can't spend their money beating Yoda on the track, it makes sense to spend it getting potential Yoda buyers to come to "three day festivals of speed." And a rejuvenated Indy 500 if rumours are to be believed.

Maybe.

Honda has changed in the last few years since Mr Honda died. They are not as myopically fixed on beating Toyota as they were. In the US they see Volkwagon being their most direct competitor, which may explain their ALMS entry. And Toyota is busy putting its foot on GMs neck. Honda does not see itself strategically as growing as big as Toyota is/will be. The focus on a specific segment of the market and selling precisely to their capacity. They are more than a niche maker but they are very careful about matching capacity to demand.

Right now I think Honda does not want the whole IRL/NA OW thing to implode because they don't want to be associated with a disaster. They will do what they can to right it, but that's a big difference from underwritiing the whole thing.

[KLang]

Right now I think Honda does not want the whole IRL/NA OW thing to implode because they don't want to be associated with a disaster. They will do what they can to right it, but that's a big difference from underwritiing the whole thing.

I dunno about that. IMO if OW ceased to exist tomorrow nobody would notice besides us. :shakehead (Thanks Tony :mad: ) I suspect the only reason Honda (Clarke) signed the extension with the earl is to give HPD a reason to exist. Now with them entering the ALMS they might not care that much what happens to OW.

[oddlycalm]

Olson makes a logical case for the turbo then maintains that the 3.0 NA will most likely get the nod...? :confused: :gomer:

Both Honda and Cosworth have made and are capable of making both a 2.65 turbo and a 3.0 NA, so neither presents a hurdle.

Logically, the fact that CCWS already has a new car program that is well advanced (and which both series desperately need) would seem to be of more pivotal importance as would be it's considerably lower cost, offer better safety and be ready in sufficient numbers for 2007. Duh...

The only reasons for doing anything else have nothing to do with logic or business which doesn't rule them out of course. :shakehead

oc

[Winston Wolfe]

Maybe.

Honda has changed in the last few years since Mr Honda died. They are not as myopically fixed on beating Toyota as they were. In the US they see Volkwagon being their most direct competitor, which may explain their ALMS entry. And Toyota is busy putting its foot on GMs neck. Honda does not see itself strategically as growing as big as Toyota is/will be. The focus on a specific segment of the market and selling precisely to their capacity. They are more than a niche maker but they are very careful about matching capacity to demand.

Right now I think Honda does not want the whole IRL/NA OW thing to implode because they don't want to be associated with a disaster. They will do what they can to right it, but that's a big difference from underwritiing the whole thing.

Mr Honda died in 1991. Alot of water has passed under the bridge since then. Dont think for a second that Honda does not take considerable pride in beating Toyota in anything they can. Honda is very proud of the fact that Toyota NEVER won the TOYOTA GP of LB, and was equally as frustrated that Honda never won their home race in Motegi while it was a CART race (but until last year when Wheldon did it for EARL ?).... VW is not even on the radar screen in terms of US sales, the closest competition in certain segments comes from Nissan or in some cases, Hyundai.
HPD has its own large scale engine \ testing \ manufacturing facility and they need to pay the bills. ALMS is an ACURA entry, and is part of a plan to seperate Acura and give its own "luxury" and more upscale identity instead of just being thought of as warmed over Accord (TL) or Pilot (MDX)... Acura recently had a ground breaking on their own North Am design studio. The ALMS effort gets Acura in competition with BMW, Audi, etc... and it also keeps HPD busy in the event that the EARL thing dies, or CCWS doesnt want the competition.
Oh, and the comments about a wherehouse where Honda or HPD stores the old engines.... its true. I dont know what it takes to get them running again, but they are literally just waiting to be hooked up to a chassis and fired up. I say bring em back, just control the ECU and the POV and let's go racing.
I dont particularly care for Olson's style, or his message, though !

[Andrew Longman]

WW

What I know about Honda come from working with them American Honda and Honda America Manufacturing over the last 15 years. I never had reason to work with HPD so my information is once removed (at least) .

Honda sees itself strategically as an engine company, not a car company. Hence they are into everything from leaf blowers to trucks. That's also why until recently they were only engine suppliers to F1. And providing power to help man has now been extended to robotics.

Beating Toyota is still a big thing but not as it was in past. As auto makers they align each of their models against another nameplate and buyer profile (e.g., Civic versus Focus). All I can tell you is that for more then 5 years generally speaking they are looking at buyers of European cars, especially VW, as their greatest competition. Those consumers (as defined buy a psychographic model) used to or typically buy Hondas. The new styling of the Acuras, starting with the TL was done with that specifically in mind.

But what you say about needing to keep HPD busy is an excellent point.

[eiregosod]

If Honda can ressurect their 2.65l turbo engines for 2007 then the turbo engine should be used.

Despite the 4 year gap, Coswrth hadn't the budget to make the 2.65l engines go faster

[extramundane]

If Honda can ressurect their 2.65l turbo engines for 2007 then the turbo engine should be used.

Despite the 4 year gap, Coswrth hadn't the budget to make the 2.65l engines go faster

They haven't had a reason to make them faster. I doubt budget enters into it.

[Winston Wolfe]

They haven't had a reason to make them faster. I doubt budget enters into it.

Correct-a-mundo ! :D

When I was watching LBGP with a good friend of mine, he commented "When was the last time you saw an engine let go in CCWS?".... to which I said, it has been a long time, my friend!

You gotta admit, these engines are doing Ford \ Cossie pretty well, as I cant recall when a guy was leading the race and his engine went, or there were multiple yellows due to engines turning into masses of metal parts and engine oil on the track.... a la PT's Honda powerplant at Fontucky back in '02 I think, when his intake manifold went sub-orbital, and then Dario's motor turned into a bug repellant\ sprayer in T3 at Cali Speedway, I think it was the same year...

Regardless, I take my hat off to FoMoCo and Cosworth for virtually removing the "blown engine" from CCWS.... :D :thumbup:

and if CCWS is gonna let anyone else "in".... they (KK and Co.) had better maintain a strict hold on development and ECU and Pop-off valves to maintain as level a playing field as they can...

[Lizzerd]

Don't forget Al Jr. in Canada Corner at RA on the last lap in '96.

[cameraman]

June 2005 was the last time someone lost an engine while leading.
Justin Wilson was way out in front at Portland last year when his engine died.

[Napoleon]

Honda sees itself strategically as an engine company, not a car company.

The Wall Street Journal did a long article on Honda a year ago or so and that was a central part of the article.

[G.]

Correct-a-mundo ! :D

When I was watching LBGP with a good friend of mine, he commented "When was the last time you saw an engine let go in CCWS?".... to which I said, it has been a long time, my friend!

You gotta admit, these engines are doing Ford \ Cossie pretty well, as I cant recall when a guy was leading the race and his engine went, or there were multiple yellows due to engines turning into masses of metal parts and engine oil on the track.... a la PT's Honda powerplant at Fontucky back in '02 I think, when his intake manifold went sub-orbital, and then Dario's motor turned into a bug repellant\ sprayer in T3 at Cali Speedway, I think it was the same year...

Regardless, I take my hat off to FoMoCo and Cosworth for virtually removing the "blown engine" from CCWS.... :D :thumbup:

and if CCWS is gonna let anyone else "in".... they (KK and Co.) had better maintain a strict hold on development and ECU and Pop-off valves to maintain as level a playing field as they can...Or FMA in 2001 at Long Beach. Lap one and done.

Hmmmm.

All three mentioned happened to be on the same team. The Honda team.

Ya think they got differently-abled engines? ;)

[devilmaster]

June 2005 was the last time someone lost an engine while leading.
Justin Wilson was way out in front at Portland last year when his engine died.

Didn't the tranny let go on him there? I thought he still had fire in the engine, just no drive.....

Gotta admit, I kinda do miss the Toyota blowups of old.... They were fun to watch.... ;)

[trauma1]

will not happen FTG will screw it uo, he wants honda NA's and Dalarras and everoine else want the panoz and turbo, TG will f it up :flame:

[cameraman]

Doesn't sound good whatever it was


Misfortune struck pole-sitter Wilson on Lap 45 when his Ford-Cosworth engine suffered an internal engine drive failure that resulted in a loss of oil pressure and power ending Justin's day.


Then, Wilson's engine suddenly seized as he crossed the line in front of the pits.

[dando]

Don't forget Al Jr. in Canada Corner at RA on the last lap in '96.

:thumbup: :thumbup:

Sadly, thousands of skeeters (aka the state bird of WI) perished in that xplosion. :gomer:

I think I cheered that as much as I did when Zanardi and Vasser wrecked after Z won LS in '99 (IIRC). :)

-Kevin

[TravelGal]

The Wall Street Journal did a long article on Honda a year ago or so and that was a central part of the article.

Which is why they want to stay in OW: to develop the engines to put better engines in their street cars. Beating Toyota is great publicity and even better for the ego. Having a better product makes the bottom line hum.