View Full Version : "If The Fans Didn't Enjoy That...
...then they aren't going to enjoy any kind of racing."-Scott Pruett. I agree. I'd rather watch ChampCar than F-1. I'd rather watch ALMS than the Rolex DPs, but this was one heckuva race weekend!. VIR. What a great place to see a road race! Porsche, Lexus, Ford. The Axe, The Rock and Scottie. I really enjoyed that. Talk all you want about speed relative to Formula Atlantics. Bitch about the France family and ugly cars. Complain about Daytona. I'm with ya! But, this road race was what brought me to the sport lo those many years ago and I will continue to watch and enjoy it. An absolute CLASSIC finish involving 3 very competent drivers and the ol' 3rd-to-first gambit while 1-2 are involved with each other. It doesn't happen all that often. Glad I was able to see it! :)
FCYTravis
04-23-06, 05:22 PM
Road racing at its finest, on display. :thumbup:
Fogarty will be in the #99 for the rest of the year. He's damn quick, he works with Gurney like they're reading each other's minds and he takes care of the equipment. He loves us too :cool: ;)
Andrew Longman
04-23-06, 05:30 PM
I only caught the last 20 or so laps but I completely agree.
Much of the credit goes to VIR though. I watch GA at the Glen every August (because my brother in law takes us all up for the Cup weekend) and while it's OK, I might actually choose to go to VIR just to see GA. :)
Great race weekend (and the Yanks won 2 of 3). I'm glad it poured all weekend here. No guilt or glares from the mrs about sitting in front of the TV all day. :D
DagoFast
04-23-06, 08:09 PM
I only saw the clips on speednews.
If crashes and banging your way past another car to pass is what constitutes a great race, I suppose that Nascar has now officially ruined sportscar racing too.....
Too bad racing is now no better off than other professional sports, where the biggest thugs are the new stars. And oncourt muggings are cheered.
Sean O'Gorman
04-23-06, 09:09 PM
...then they aren't going to enjoy any kind of racing."-Scott Pruett. I agree. I'd rather watch ChampCar than F-1. I'd rather watch ALMS than the Rolex DPs, but this was one heckuva race weekend!. VIR. What a great place to see a road race! Porsche, Lexus, Ford. The Axe, The Rock and Scottie. I really enjoyed that. Talk all you want about speed relative to Formula Atlantics. Bitch about the France family and ugly cars. Complain about Daytona. I'm with ya! But, this road race was what brought me to the sport lo those many years ago and I will continue to watch and enjoy it. An absolute CLASSIC finish involving 3 very competent drivers and the ol' 3rd-to-first gambit while 1-2 are involved with each other. It doesn't happen all that often. Glad I was able to see it! :)
I have no idea what the hell you said in that post, but yeah, that was a really awesome race.
DagoFast must just be confused over seeing a sports car race where there are multiple cars on the lead lap at the end. I understand. ;)
DagoFast must just be confused over seeing a sports car race where there are multiple cars on the lead lap at the end. I understand. ;)
Maybe DagoFast knows what REAL sports car racing is about.
I grew up on sports car racing. Grand Am ain't sports car racing. It is NASCAR's bastardization of sports car racing.
Sean O'Gorman
04-23-06, 09:48 PM
Grand-Am is real ROAD RACING, that's all that matters to me.
Grand-Am is real ROAD RACING, that's all that matters to me.
Just like the WWF is to Greco-Roman wrestling.
I feel sorry for you Sean. If only you were a few years older and got to experience real sports car racing. I have a funny feeling that you really don't understand what endurance racing is about. I don't want to come across as being a dick but I grew up with IMSA in the 80's. Got so see a few Group C races. Grand Am is like comparing The Hansen Brothers to Wayne Gretzky.
Sean O'Gorman
04-23-06, 10:20 PM
My first exposure to auto racing was IMSA GTP back in 1988. Granted I was only 5, but I grew up thinking that was the golden era of sports car racing, until 2004. There comes a point where the cars can be as cool as imaginable, but it doesn't mean anything if there isn't a grid of talented drivers in competitive cars. When I saw Grand-Am in '03, there were only 4 DPs, but they put on a hell of a show and I knew full fields would equate to great action.
Everyone has different preferences, but just because the cars are relatively equal (and unattractive looking) doesn't make it fake racing.
DagoFast
04-23-06, 10:49 PM
As unbelieveable as it must seem, there WAS a time in racing when real passes were executed with skill, daring and timing. It was rather artful and quite exciting to behold.
Probably equally incredible; a pass that involved bumping, banging and even outright wrecking the other competitors was strongly discouraged as being completely un-sportsman like, low rent trailer trash, boorish behaviour.
Not to mention it was dangerous at worst and tended to add unneccesary expense at the minimum.
We are poorer for the loss.
I missed all racing today but VIR is a great track.
... until 2004.
Do you mean to imply that Grand Am has transended GTP to establish a new golden age of sports prototype racing? Because that's a stupid notion.
RacinM3
04-24-06, 01:35 AM
If crashes and banging your way past another car to pass is what constitutes a great race, I suppose that Nascar has now officially ruined sportscar racing too.....
Are you talking about the last lap pass for the win? If so, I'm going to guess you've never driven a racing car. Rockenfeller takes advantage of two guys going at it to take the lead, from third place. Classic racing move. It looked to me as if Angelelli didn't see him and turned in, thus resulting in the contact. Rockenfeller did not dive bomb and use Angelelli for brakes. I've been watching this guy for a while, and am expecting him to do great things in sports cars.
If you're NOT talking about the last lap pass, my apologies. But take heart, those days about which you lament aren't completely gone. Watch Randy Pobst and Peter Cunningham battle for the lead, just to name one contemporary example.
Aside, for those trying to compare this road racing with the IRL's foot-to-the-floor dronefests (not that this was done in THIS thread) because Grand Am mangaed to have three cars fighting for the lead in the last lap, I feel sorry for you.
cameraman
04-24-06, 02:57 AM
The race was a mixed bag. The first half had way too much bashing of cars, offs and unique driver decisions. The last ten laps or so was some seriously impressive driving by the four at the front.
And the 99 did a good job of staying on TV too.
theunions
04-24-06, 03:50 AM
I was really enjoying the end until Dirty V ran out of fuel... :cry:
Napoleon
04-24-06, 05:27 AM
Grand Am is like comparing The Hansen Brothers to Wayne Gretzky.
The Hansen Brothers rock.
Sean O'Gorman
04-24-06, 07:11 AM
Do you mean to imply that Grand Am has transended GTP to establish a new golden age of sports prototype racing? Because that's a stupid notion.
How is it stupid? Its my personal preference.
When has sports car racing ever been so competitive? When has it had so many competitors? When has the TV package been so consistant?
Accipiter
04-24-06, 11:04 AM
It's so sad to see people pooh-pooh a great race because the series doesn't fit their political views.
extramundane
04-24-06, 11:04 AM
When has sports car racing ever been so competitive?
By so competitive do you mean the same two teams winning every race?
When has it had so many competitors?
Check your Daytona & Sebring results up through about 2002 and you'll see consistent entries of 60, 70, even 90+ cars.
When has the TV package been so consistant?
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
This must be an age and memory thing.
The Grand Am can only the next thing best to sex [or the thing better than, in SOG35's case ;) ] for those who have no memory of the 60s, 70s, 80, and 90s. Racing was different and better then. NASCRAP and the WWFE changed all that. :(
That is why so many of us want CCWS 2007 to be so much more than 2006.
How is it stupid? Its my personal preference.
When has sports car racing ever been so competitive? When has it had so many competitors? When has the TV package been so consistant?
There's more to a "golden age" than car count and TV package. The golden age of GTP racing saw good fields with great teams and great drivers racing competitively in some of the greatest prototypes of all time. The notion that dumbing down the top level of road racing to permit a bunch of sports racers to play at racing at the top level of road racing represents a "golden age" is just nonsense.
Are you talking about the last lap pass for the win? If so, I'm going to guess you've never driven a racing car. Rockenfeller takes advantage of two guys going at it to take the lead, from third place. Classic racing move. It looked to me as if Angelelli didn't see him and turned in, thus resulting in the contact. Rockenfeller did not dive bomb and use Angelelli for brakes. I've been watching this guy for a while, and am expecting him to do great things in sports cars.
If you're NOT talking about the last lap pass, my apologies. But take heart, those days about which you lament aren't completely gone. Watch Randy Pobst and Peter Cunningham battle for the lead, just to name one contemporary example.
Aside, for those trying to compare this road racing with the IRL's foot-to-the-floor dronefests (not that this was done in THIS thread) because Grand Am mangaed to have three cars fighting for the lead in the last lap, I feel sorry for you.Serious RACE-RELATED question.
I saw that bump-draft, and thought, "No way are the officials going to allow that pass, penalties will ensue for Rocky". Then I caught an in-car view and it DID look like Angelelli was at fault.
So what was it? I was unable to watch, glued to the tube.
At first it looked like Rocky nailed Angelelli and slowed him down. Bad Rocky.
Then it looked like a clean pass with Angelelli turning into Rocky. Ha Ha, you messed up!
So, opinions?
When has sports car racing ever been so competitive? When has it had so many competitors? When has the TV package been so consistant?
Wow... if the local short track had their enduro race running almost constantly on cable access, would that constitute a golden age of oval racing? Afterall, they start almost 100 cars, and nobody knew who was going to win until the final lap.
Racing Truth
04-24-06, 01:07 PM
Maybe DagoFast knows what REAL sports car racing is about.
I grew up on sports car racing. Grand Am ain't sports car racing. It is NASCAR's bastardization of sports car racing.
Fine, but "REAL" sportscar racing basically died yrs. ago. To the extent it exists in ALMS, well, if you enjoy mechanical breakdowns with no prototype compettition, good on you.
I'll take Grand Am. :thumbup:
chop456
04-24-06, 01:23 PM
I'll take Grand Am. :thumbup:
Please take it somewhere I'll never have to see it. :D
extramundane
04-24-06, 01:43 PM
It's all Andy Evans' fault.
chop456
04-24-06, 01:45 PM
It's all Andy Evans' fault.
http://www.cafepress.com/sebring_fans.9363982
Racing Truth
04-24-06, 02:27 PM
As unbelieveable as it must seem, there WAS a time in racing when real passes were executed with skill, daring and timing. It was rather artful and quite exciting to behold.
Probably equally incredible; a pass that involved bumping, banging and even outright wrecking the other competitors was strongly discouraged as being completely un-sportsman like, low rent trailer trash, boorish behaviour.
Not to mention it was dangerous at worst and tended to add unneccesary expense at the minimum.
We are poorer for the loss.
Well, that's because, as beautiful as they were, they were so fragile, that a sneeze could break 'em (See ALMS c. 2005-06).
Now, I don't agree with Sean. The variety, speed, and elegance of '60's thru 80's was a "golden age." This is not. But it is, IMHO compelling.
Oh, are you inferring that Pruett and Rockenfeller are "boorish?"
race chica
04-24-06, 02:43 PM
It's so sad to see people pooh-pooh a great race because the series doesn't fit their political views.
I agree, Good call. Whats the difference as along as they know how to turn left and right more then once or twice during a season?
racer2c
04-24-06, 02:50 PM
So "side by side", fender rubbin', three abreast at the finish taxi cab races are off limits to us elitist snobs also, right?
No, you're right, it's time I give swamp buggy racing a shot, I hear they're as much fun as you can have with your clothes on. :gomer:
Down with Pinot Noir! Give me a can of Bud! :)
if they're $.25 pitchers like Midnight Rodeo used to have, I'm game :D
Sean O'Gorman
04-24-06, 05:38 PM
Wow... if the local short track had their enduro race running almost constantly on cable access, would that constitute a golden age of oval racing? Afterall, they start almost 100 cars, and nobody knew who was going to win until the final lap.
Does the local short track have teams of the caliber of Ganassi, Suntrust, Job, Fernandez, etc? Drivers like Angelelli, Pruett, Pat Long,
Spicoli
04-24-06, 05:56 PM
Does the local short track have teams of the caliber of Ganassi, Suntrust, Job, Fernandez, etc? Drivers like Angelelli, Pruett, Pat Long,
i've heard of Gan*******....who are the other goobs? :gomer:
stop arguing Sean, you're looking foolishness.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v612/Ankf00/shallowandpedantic.jpg
The guy who said Grand-Am is like the Hansen brothers is spot on! It's made for TV racing. The rules are modified every race to make the cars equal. There are a lot of yellows. Sponsors are brought to teams by Grand-Am, to make sure everyone is happy. Nascar names are put in seats to bring fans, which is directly paid for by Nascar/ Grand-Am. Grand-Am is a reality TV show, like IRL at Texas is. And, I for one love it for just that. ALMS & LMES are most beautiful cars in the world, without a doubt. I'd pay money to watch them at laguna Seca or Monza. But, for pure enjoyment I'd watch a Grand-Am race on TV. I won't pay money to go to one live, but will make sure to catch it on TV.
But, that is what the people want and that is what works. The hardcore racers, like 99% of us on here, would be stocket to watch an F1 car driver around the track with no one else on it. But, the TV audiance is different.
Sean O'Gorman
04-24-06, 07:22 PM
But, that is what the people want and that is what works. The hardcore racers, like 99% of us on here, would be stocket to watch an F1 car driver around the track with no one else on it. But, the TV audiance is different.
What??? The hardcore racers are the ones who want to see more competition. I think its funny that if you go to a site such as rr-ax.com where the real hardcore racers are and ask about Grand-Am, it'll get rave reviews. Its the armchair racers who have no concept of racing economics that are the ones that hate on Grand-Am, and it is getting tiresome.
racer2c
04-24-06, 07:42 PM
What??? The hardcore racers are the ones who want to see more competition. I think its funny that if you go to a site such as rr-ax.com where the real hardcore racers are and ask about Grand-Am, it'll get rave reviews. Its the armchair racers who have no concept of racing economics that are the ones that hate on Grand-Am, and it is getting tiresome.
I bow to your URL, real race fans and your superior knowledge of all things motor sport. :gomer:
It's sad that sportscar racing now has their own gomers. :gomer:
What??? The hardcore racers are the ones who want to see more competition. I think its funny that if you go to a site such as rr-ax.com where the real hardcore racers are and ask about Grand-Am, it'll get rave reviews. Its the armchair racers who have no concept of racing economics that are the ones that hate on Grand-Am, and it is getting tiresome.
Maybe you should start a fan site for "real ultimate road racers." That would be sweet.
This is a site for enthusiasts. You may feel free to relieve yourself our tiresome presence any time you please. Real ultimate racers have an agenda of their own. That agenda doesn't necessarily make them the best judge of what's right for the sport or what constitutes a great series in historic terms. There were plenty of real ultimate racers touting the IRL as the best thing since sliced bread back in '96.
FCYTravis
04-25-06, 01:02 AM
Fio1, could you name the NASCAR drivers who are in Grand-Am full-time?
DagoFast
04-25-06, 01:21 AM
Well, that's because, as beautiful as they were, they were so fragile, that a sneeze could break 'em (See ALMS c. 2005-06).
Now, I don't agree with Sean. The variety, speed, and elegance of '60's thru 80's was a "golden age." This is not. But it is, IMHO compelling.
Oh, are you inferring that Pruett and Rockenfeller are "boorish?"
I imagine Stirling Moss might refer to them that way. I'll simply note that Scott Pruett's time spent in Nascar has certainly effected a change in his driving style.
From what little I saw, Mr Rockenfeller looked to be more of a cue ball. And I would say Max Angellelli could easily sub for Jimmy Spencer should the need arise.
To be honest, I put grand am Vs. ALMS in the same "sportscar" category as I would a slammed civic with ricer graphics and a fart can muffler Vs. a Porche 911 turbo. Only one of them is a real sportscar. And only one series is real sportscar racing. If your a fast & furious type, or a grand am fan and choose to believe otherwise, thats fine, we can just agree to disagree.
As someone else already noted, the slippery slope is when the officials (Nascar again; who else sees a trend?) tacitly condone rough driving by turning a blind eye, they open a pandoras box to ever escalting behaviour.
Soon, you go from an occaisional once or twice a season Earnhart last lap bump & run for the win, to numerous early, mid and late race bump & runs by everyone and their brother (literally!) in every race.
Of course, Nascar IS the 800 lb gorilla and they sure ain't going broke overestimating the public, so what the hell do I know? Maybe in 10 years there will be hundreds of thousands of little O'Gormans at every grand Am race, whooping it up and cheering for the big one.
As Smokey Yunick recorded in his autobiograhpy for posterity, Big Bill France's favorite saying was "keep loading the wagon boys, the mule is blind"
Sean O'Gorman
04-25-06, 06:04 AM
Maybe you should start a fan site for "real ultimate road racers." That would be sweet.
This is a site for enthusiasts. You may feel free to relieve yourself our tiresome presence any time you please. Real ultimate racers have an agenda of their own. That agenda doesn't necessarily make them the best judge of what's right for the sport or what constitutes a great series in historic terms. There were plenty of real ultimate racers touting the IRL as the best thing since sliced bread back in '96.
So now I guess enthusiast means being so elitist that the only "real" racing is so unfeasible to be run these days that no such thing can exist anymore. Guess it makes it more fun if you just like to complain all the time. :p
Sean O'Gorman
04-25-06, 06:08 AM
I imagine Stirling Moss might refer to them that way. I'll simply note that Scott Pruett's time spent in Nascar has certainly effected a change in his driving style.
From what little I saw, Mr Rockenfeller looked to be more of a cue ball. And I would say Max Angellelli could easily sub for Jimmy Spencer should the need arise.
To be honest, I put grand am Vs. ALMS in the same "sportscar" category as I would a slammed civic with ricer graphics and a fart can muffler Vs. a Porche 911 turbo. Only one of them is a real sportscar. And only one series is real sportscar racing. If your a fast & furious type, or a grand am fan and choose to believe otherwise, thats fine, we can just agree to disagree.
As someone else already noted, the slippery slope is when the officials (Nascar again; who else sees a trend?) tacitly condone rough driving by turning a blind eye, they open a pandoras box to ever escalting behaviour.
Soon, you go from an occaisional once or twice a season Earnhart last lap bump & run for the win, to numerous early, mid and late race bump & runs by everyone and their brother (literally!) in every race.
Of course, Nascar IS the 800 lb gorilla and they sure ain't going broke overestimating the public, so what the hell do I know? Maybe in 10 years there will be hundreds of thousands of little O'Gormans at every grand Am race, whooping it up and cheering for the big one.
As Smokey Yunick recorded in his autobiograhpy for posterity, Big Bill France's favorite saying was "keep loading the wagon boys, the mule is blind"
So since you seem to be quite the driver, and the ultimate judge of what real racing is, would you like to provide me with a list of drivers who wouldn't consider contact on the last lap of a race???? I know in ALMS there is generally a 3-4 lap gap between first and second by that point, but the Grand-Am officials have been very conservative about contact when a driver is hit or spun. But go on ahead just making up your own reality and applying it to Grand-Am. :gomer:
So now I guess enthusiast means being so elitist that the only "real" racing is so unfeasible to be run these days that no such thing can exist anymore. Guess it makes it more fun if you just like to complain all the time. :p
No, being an enthusiast means having an enthusiasm for the sport. You're the one who claimed that your opinion is backed by some higher authority.
Should we tote up your ALMS and drifting complaints and see who really does most of the complaining around here?
But go on ahead just making up your own reality and applying it to Grand-Am. :gomer:
Why? You do a good enough job already. :p
SeanO, has it ever occurred to you that a product that people want never needs to be defended? If it did, the ad slogans would read something like this.....
"Porsche Cayman..........try this overpriced piece of kife because SeanO says so." :laugh:
saw a cayman in uptown yesterday, it looked goofy. :gomer:
SOG...you said earlier you had no idea what I said. Have you figured it out yet? I was merely predicting the sort of territorial argument we always see when a race opinion is posted. Though I'm not neutral in the sportscar war I'd say I'm far less entrenched than many/most here and can still enjoy a race especially when it is on a track with grass, hills, trees outhouses and picnic tables. :)
Spicoli
04-25-06, 12:55 PM
saw a cayman in uptown yesterday, it looked goofy.
when you get your license, maybe you can drive one and make an informed opinion. :)
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Racing Truth
04-25-06, 02:16 PM
Maybe you should start a fan site for "real ultimate road racers." That would be sweet.
This is a site for enthusiasts. You may feel free to relieve yourself our tiresome presence any time you please. Real ultimate racers have an agenda of their own. That agenda doesn't necessarily make them the best judge of what's right for the sport or what constitutes a great series in historic terms. There were plenty of real ultimate racers touting the IRL as the best thing since sliced bread back in '96.
WHOA!!!
That's right, racers don't care about the sport! Damn those idiot racers! :gomer:
DagoFast
04-25-06, 02:24 PM
So since you seem to be quite the driver, and the ultimate judge of what real racing is, would you like to provide me with a list of drivers who wouldn't consider contact on the last lap of a race???? I know in ALMS there is generally a 3-4 lap gap between first and second by that point, but the Grand-Am officials have been very conservative about contact when a driver is hit or spun. But go on ahead just making up your own reality and applying it to Grand-Am. :gomer:
Gee, your easy.
OK, here are some, but most certainly not all drivers who won't hit you just to win:
The aforementioned Mr. Moss
Alain Prost
Fernando Alonso
Jim Clark
Al Unser Sr.
Joe Leonard
Juan Fangio
Jeemy Vasser
Jackie Stewart
Graham Hill
Damon Hill
Nigel Mansell
Dan Gurney
(note that all except Jim Clark lived to retirement,as Graham Hill did not die in a race car. Hopefully Vasser and Alonso will retire healthy as well)
Drivers that will hit you to win? Some but certainly not all:
Michael Schumacher
Dale Earnhart Sr.
Ayrton Senna
(note that 2 of these greats died in their racecar. Mere coincidence? Hubris? Maybe....maybe not)
And nowdays, thanks to Mr Earnhart, pretty much everybody in Nascar Cup except Mark Martin and Bobby Labonte. You see? Sadly, it's shorter to type who won't hit you. And not just for the win, but sometimes, just because.
Busch series? Same.
Craftsman trucks? Same.
And now, apparently, Grand Am.
Hum...You see a trend here yet?
If you can only grasp one point, this would be the most basic one: If you have to hit/wreck someone else to win, your not a racer. You just crossed a very important line and now your just a thug. Period. And I refuse to cheer a thug. Or support any sport that tolerates or encourages it.
I'm personally starting to think the France's must own a big steel company that makes tubing and sheetmetal and their various racetracks and series are just a nifty way to feed the beast.
cameraman
04-25-06, 02:56 PM
What delusional world do you live in where every car that starts an ALMS race finishes with pristine paint/bodywork?
There is too much bashing of cars in GA but to infer that it never, ever happens in ALMS is pure ********.
when you get your license, maybe you can drive one and make an informed opinion. :)
1. I still have my license, no thanks to you :p
2. No need to waste time making an informed opinion on a goofy looking car when there were much better looking specimens at that very instant walking across my path.
3. Prost shouldn't be on that list of "wouldn't run into someone, unless you're a Prost homer.
Fio1, could you name the NASCAR drivers who are in Grand-Am full-time?
I don't think I ever mentioned 'full time' in my post. Nascar drivers are placed with teams in some races, and team are given checks to cover the expenses by Nascar. It's actually a pretty cool deal. Sponsors are also shared between Grand-Am and Nascar. Playboy was placed on two full time Grand-Am teams by Nascar/ Grand-Am. These are doing something that Tony G tried to do and CCWS should do. If teams are able to make a living racing in your series, then more of them will show-up, not more of them close shop like in open wheel racing.
DagoFast
04-25-06, 06:42 PM
What delusional world do you live in where every car that starts an ALMS race finishes with pristine paint/bodywork?
There is too much bashing of cars in GA but to infer that it never, ever happens in ALMS is pure ********.
'Scuse me, I'm delusional? Where pray tell did I "infer" that?
By the examples listed, I acknowledged it even happens in Formula 1. It happens in my beloved ChampCar series. There, I'm on the record. Happy now?
Mostly, I'm beeotching about the fact it's becoming "normal" and accepted without a second thought. And I don't think you need the boys from CSI to figure out where the cancer is coming from.
To use an overworked phrase; "I hate that it happens." The irony is, guess what series participants coined that one?
cameraman
04-25-06, 07:31 PM
Mostly, I'm beeotching about the fact it's becoming "normal" and accepted without a second thought.
What you are whining about didn't happen at all last week. There was minor contact, nobody hit anyone to make a pass, nobody punted anyone to make a pass. There was no "thuggery" involved with the pass.
I don't know or care what the current crop of prettyboy hilljack cab drivers are doing and I can't see how anything they do relates to the skills of a Porsche factory driver. Rockenfeller did absolutely nothing wrong and he pulled off a pretty amazing pass in the process.
If you don't like GA don't watch it.
Mostly, I'm beeotching about the fact it's becoming "normal" and accepted without a second thought. And I don't think you need the boys from CSI to figure out where the cancer is coming from.
I'll stand with you on this one. I've never appreciated fender banging action as a matter of course in a race.
Sure, it happens sometimes in good racing, but when it becomes normal to batter one's way through a contested corner I'm disappointed. That's what NASCAR has become and the way Grand Am seems to be going. :rolleyes:
And if I wanted roller derby bumping and blocking I'd go for the real thing!
http://www.assassinationcityderby.com/images/CubanClash3.jpg
Sean O'Gorman
04-25-06, 09:11 PM
I'd just like to mention at this point that Grand-Am (McDowell) and NASCAR (Harvick) are the only organizations in the past few yeares I can think of that have suspended a driver for rough driving. I know CART suspended PT, but that was back in, what, 1999?
When avoidable contact happens in a Grand-Am race, the driver is penalized, as he should be. It happens in every race, its just the nature of having competitive drivers in closely matched cars. Howevfer, when it comes down to the last lap and you are battling for the lead, I find it hard to see some forms of contact as little more than "racing incidents." After all, this is professional racing.
formulaben
04-25-06, 10:24 PM
As unbelieveable as it must seem, there WAS a time in racing when real passes were executed with skill, daring and timing. It was rather artful and quite exciting to behold.
Probably equally incredible; a pass that involved bumping, banging and even outright wrecking the other competitors was strongly discouraged as being completely un-sportsman like, low rent trailer trash, boorish behaviour.
Not to mention it was dangerous at worst and tended to add unneccesary expense at the minimum.
We are poorer for the loss.
+1 :shakehead
After all, this is professional racing.
:laugh: As opposed to? :laugh:
WHOA!!!
That's right, racers don't care about the sport! Damn those idiot racers! :gomer:
Oh they care. It's on their list of priorities right after anything that pays money, anything that gets them a ride, anything that gets them publicity, anything that gets them a girl, anything that gets them a free drink... Ok, it's somewhere down the list, I'm sure.
Really. Aren't we over this naivete yet? Ganassi, Rahal, Fernandez, Andretti the Lesser, all "real racers" who care so deeply about the sport. :rolleyes:
If you don't like GA don't watch it.
That's been my policy from the start. But this thread started with Scott Pruett implying that road racing fans are somehow required to enjoy crapwagon prototypes. Some people object to that notion.
My participation in this thread was prompted by OGorman's comment that the scrubbing bubbles the France family calls prototypes have transended IMSA GTP as some kind of new golden age of prototype racing. I think that's a stupid notion and I'm not going to read it and not call someone on it.
Don't watch? Absolutely. But you can't challenge people's views on the sport and then complain about them disagreeing.
cameraman
04-26-06, 12:36 AM
That's been my policy from the start. But this thread started with Scott Pruett implying that road racing fans are somehow required to enjoy crapwagon prototypes. Some people object to that notion.That isn't what he said. He was talking about the last ten laps of that race being a very tight clean run by four damn good drivers, not four cars. The specs of the cars didn't matter one bit, that was four drivers running ten laps and putting on a clinic.
My participation in this thread was prompted by OGorman's comment that the scrubbing bubbles the France family calls prototypes have transended IMSA GTP as some kind of new golden age of prototype racing. I think that's a stupid notion and I'm not going to read it and not call someone on it. I have to fully agree with you there.
Don't watch? Absolutely. But you can't challenge people's views on the sport and then complain about them disagreeing.
FCYTravis
04-26-06, 02:55 AM
Yeah, if I recall right, all those Trans-Am guys never so much as touched fenders, huh?
That's right, there was no such thing as dirty driving, rivalries and crashes when you had Sharp and Schroeder and Pruett and Pickett and Kendall and Gentilozzi all racing the crap out of each other.
Oh, wait, you mean Trans-Am routinely sent cars home looking like they'd been through a Baghdad car bombing? Holy hell, that's not real road racing. Can't be. That series sucked.
:rolleyes:
the scrubbing bubbles the France family calls prototypes
Brilliant! :thumbup:
Sean O'Gorman
04-26-06, 07:13 AM
That's been my policy from the start. But this thread started with Scott Pruett implying that road racing fans are somehow required to enjoy crapwagon prototypes. Some people object to that notion.
My participation in this thread was prompted by OGorman's comment that the scrubbing bubbles the France family calls prototypes have transended IMSA GTP as some kind of new golden age of prototype racing. I think that's a stupid notion and I'm not going to read it and not call someone on it.
Don't watch? Absolutely. But you can't challenge people's views on the sport and then complain about them disagreeing.
You know, I'm pretty sure I only stated that the golden era was simply my personal opinion, and wasn't suggesting it is THE golden era of sports car racing.
Still, one person (Pruett) is trying to convince people to like more auto racing, and several people are trying to convince people to like less auto racing. I think I know which one of those two seems like a smarter idea.
After all, this is professional racing.
:laugh: As opposed to? :laugh:
The bottom third of the Champ Car and IRL fields.
Still, one person (Pruett) is trying to convince people to like more auto racing, and several people are trying to convince people to like less auto racing. I think I know which one of those two seems like a smarter idea.
Um, Sean...
The only ones trying to convince people to like less auto racing was cameraman saying, "if you don't like it - don't watch."
Other than that, I just see people giving their own opinions. Can you point to anybody saying, "You shouldn't be watching Grand Am?"
Racing Truth
04-26-06, 01:46 PM
The bottom third of the Champ Car and IRL fields.
:( , but true. Well done.
Racing Truth
04-26-06, 01:51 PM
Oh they care. It's on their list of priorities right after anything that pays money, anything that gets them a ride, anything that gets them publicity, anything that gets them a girl, anything that gets them a free drink... Ok, it's somewhere down the list, I'm sure.
Really. Aren't we over this naivete yet? Ganassi, Rahal, Fernandez, Andretti the Lesser, all "real racers" who care so deeply about the sport. :rolleyes:
Dude, you're using, Floyd, Rahole, Andretti the lesser, et. al to boost your argument? :saywhat: They're not the guys you were referring to in the first place. They're whiney, spoiled, egomaniacal, "businessmen." Not "dedicated racers."
H=ll, if I were as cynical about all race car drivers as you, I'd hate the entire friggin sport.
:( , but true. Well done.
If every entry into the Grand Am series is a stout fully sorted entry with a shoe capable of standing on the gas, I would tend to agree with you.
Otherwise, as opposed to "well done", I would counter with medium rare at best.
Dr. Corkski
04-26-06, 04:43 PM
The bottom third of the Champ Car and IRL fields.Dude, Paul Gentilozzi is committed to winning. He said so at ccf. :laugh:
oddlycalm
04-26-06, 06:08 PM
one heckuva race weekend!. VIR. What a great place to see a road race! Anytime you get to see a good race on a natural terrain road course on a nice day you gotta put that in the win column regardless what series it is. Those moments are good for the soul and don't have jack to do with politics and which rich guy has the best series.
oc
Dude, you're using, Floyd, Rahole, Andretti the lesser, et. al to boost your argument? :saywhat: They're not the guys you were referring to in the first place. They're whiney, spoiled, egomaniacal, "businessmen." Not "dedicated racers."
Doesn't matter. Almost everyone has an agenda that comes before "the good of the sport". Everyone used that same "dedicated racers" story on Champ car owners back when they were singing "Champ Car Uber Alles".
"Dedicated racers" don't race for benefit of the sport or for us. They race for their own reasons.
H=ll, if I were as cynical about all race car drivers as you, I'd hate the entire friggin sport.On the contrary, once you get over the assumption that people do things for the reasons you think they should you don't have to hate them when they disappoint you.
That doesn't mean that nobody ever does anything good or for the right reasons. It just means that you shouldn't assume that they're being completely altruistic. I admire racers for their skill and achievements, not because of their special insight into what's good for racing.
Thanks, oc, that's all I was trying to say. I felt good about what I saw and simply agreed with Pruett's assessment. I'm not surprised with the divided opinions here either. I can talk about the USRRC, the Can Am and IMSA too, but that's over. Just made an observation about what we see today.
racer2c
04-26-06, 10:27 PM
Thanks, oc, that's all I was trying to say. I felt good about what I saw and simply agreed with Pruett's assessment. I'm not surprised with the divided opinions here either. I can talk about the USRRC, the Can Am and IMSA too, but that's over. Just made an observation about what we see today.
It's a wonderful thing that NASCAR saved sports car racing for all the purists. :gomer:
Sean O'Gorman
04-27-06, 06:54 AM
I'm still waiting to hear how they damaged it. Would ALMS be any better if they were the only game in town?
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.