Is Not Having an American in Champ Car Detrimental to its Growth?

[racer2c]

I saw more people who think losing AJ from the CCWS paddock is a bad thing for the series than those who don't so I wanted to get some numbers out of curiosity. So whether you are a xenophobic &*()&*^%, an A.J. 'dinger fan, or an intern at an office or racing series, please click your option.

[Cam]

Detrimental to it's growth? :confused: Hell no!

Detrimental to it's image as a NAOW racing series? Absolutely.

[Ed_Severson]

Detrimental to its growth? Absolutely not.

It's not Allmendinger's nationality that hurts; it's his talent.

Would we be having this discussion if it was P.J. Chesson that lost his ride as the only American in Champ Car? Gripe as much as you want; it isn't not having an American driver that you're pissed off about ... it's not having this American driver.

Just to underscore the Chicken Little nature of this continued tirade on your part, let me remind you that we've run exactly zero races without an American in the field this year, and Allmendinger is first in line for Coyne's seat at Portland, if he chooses to accept the offer. But thanks for panicking. :rolleyes:

[racer2c]

Detrimental to its growth? Absolutely not.

It's not Allmendinger's nationality that hurts; it's his talent.

Would we be having this discussion if it was P.J. Chesson that lost his ride as the only American in Champ Car? Gripe as much as you want; it isn't not having an American driver that you're pissed off about ... it's not having this American driver.

So AJ is only as good as Sizzle Chesson? :gomer:

On your next coffee run stop by corp marketing and ask them their opinion.

[racer2c]

Detrimental to its growth? Absolutely not.

It's not Allmendinger's nationality that hurts; it's his talent.

Would we be having this discussion if it was P.J. Chesson that lost his ride as the only American in Champ Car? Gripe as much as you want; it isn't not having an American driver that you're pissed off about ... it's not having this American driver.

Just to underscore the Chicken Little nature of this continued tirade on your part, let me remind you that we've run exactly zero races without an American in the field this year, and Allmendinger is first in line for Coyne's seat at Portland, if he chooses to accept the offer. But thanks for panicking. :rolleyes:

Who's panicking?
Now I understand why the TF gomers use the ostrich head in the sand analogy.

You need to start using a few more of these,,,,,,,,, in your posts.

[Ed_Severson]

So AJ is only as good as Sizzle Chesson?

Looks like somebody needs a reading comprehension course or two.

Nevertheless, the results of this little straw poll are meaningless. You posed one question when you clearly want to argue about a different one. When you figure out what your beef is, let us know.

[racer2c]

Looks like somebody needs a reading comprehension course or two.

Nevertheless, the results of thi little straw poll are meaningless. You posed one question when you clearly want to argue about a different one. When you figure out what your beef is, let us know.


:gomer:

[Ed_Severson]

Who's panicking?

Tough question, cookie. Let's have a look at the transcripts, shall we?


Champ Car without an American is an embarrassment ... Keep playing the violin as the city burns around you.

Seems like one of us thinks the world is going to implode if A.J. Allmendinger isn't in a car in Portland. One wonders which of us that might be ...

Good news ... you're gonna win this contest! :gomer:

[Michaelhatesfans]

I'll post what I posted in the other thread. Champ Car has bigger worries than passports right now.

[mueber]

It hurts. A few local names could be marketed. The problem with Champ Car is the product. Give people what they want, and they will buy it.

NASCAR proves there is a market for guy-next-door Disney heroes, F-1 proves there is a market for nationalism and high tech. Champ Car doesn’t have high-tech, nationalism or heroes. CART was sold as a poor man’s F-1. Champ Car’s biggest problem is that it really can't be sold to a market segment right now, except, maybe, the ALMS crowd. We all know how large a market that is.

[Andrew Longman]

I'll post what I posted in the other thread. Champ Car has bigger worries than passports right now.

I think I'll do the same. I think it matters more that he is an established CC name, that has been around a while, is personable (even magnetic), and a consistent strong performer.

More than losing an American CCWS will suffer if he is replaced on the grid by another no name newbie to the series

[coolhand]

At this point, no, becuase no one watches this series. However if it was gaining steam it would start to hurt later on.

[Lizzerd]

Detrimental to it's growth? :confused: Hell no!

Detrimental to it's image as a NAOW racing series? Absolutely.

With all due respect, my Aussie friend, I would say just the opposite.

To grow a series, to generate greater interest from the now casual fan or someone who knows nothing of the sport, new fans, there needs to be at least one home grown icon to cheer for. We here, on the other hand, the fans (I would hope) who would be fans regardless of the flag on the cockpit, have nothing to do with the growth of the series. That is, unless you introduce newbies to it, like I try to do all the time. With that thought in mind, the newbie would more easily identify him or her self to the series, and hence become a new fan (that growth thing...) if there were a driver from their home state, or region of the country.

Image? Already tarnished, in part because of the lack of Americans.

[Michaelhatesfans]

We here, on the other hand, the fans (I would hope) who would be fans regardless of the flag on the cockpit, have nothing to do with the growth of the series. That is, unless you introduce newbies to it, like I try to do all the time. With that thought in mind, the newbie would more easily identify him or her self to the series, and hence become a new fan (that growth thing...) if there were a driver from their home state, or region of the country.
Keep bringing them. It's worth more than thousands of advertising dollars could ever do. As to what hooks them? I still say that a good on track product is worth far more than a local/national angle.

[cart7]

How can you answer this?

It's a US based racing series.

The driver in question was the Rookie of the year just a year and a half ago.

The driver in question was the Atlantics Champ.

The driver in question was 5th in points this year.

The driver in question is the only American in the series with no one on the horizon.


So you toss this guy on his ear? Whether AJ is performing to the level Russo feels the team needs him to is sorta irrelevant. Russo isn't seeing the big picture here. Besides cutting the only American the series has he's basically undermined the ladder system. AJ was obviously in need of some different kind of mentoring, Carl should've worked it out. IF AJ heads to NAscar or, uggghhh the IRL, and he turns it around this series along with Russo are going to look like friggin idiots for not showing anymore patience than they have. I'm not certain the ratings can go any lower but the attendance can take a dive. Nobody is going to care about a remnant racing series that runs on streets with a revolving door of drivers no one's ever heard of before except a handful of Tony haters who'll watch it just out of spite of him.

I dunno. :shakehead

[Ed_Severson]

With all due respect, my Aussie friend, I would say just the opposite.

To grow a series, to generate greater interest from the now casual fan or someone who knows nothing of the sport, new fans, there needs to be at least one home grown icon to cheer for. We here, on the other hand, the fans (I would hope) who would be fans regardless of the flag on the cockpit, have nothing to do with the growth of the series. That is, unless you introduce newbies to it, like I try to do all the time. With that thought in mind, the newbie would more easily identify him or her self to the series, and hence become a new fan (that growth thing...) if there were a driver from their home state, or region of the country.

Image? Already tarnished, in part because of the lack of Americans.

You could just as easily make the case that in order to introduce new fans, we simply need to get more recognizeable drivers in the field, regardless of where they're from. Consider two scenarios ...

1) A.J. Allmendinger, Scott Speed, and Alex Barron were announced tomorrow as a three-car team in 2007.
2) A.J. Allmendinger, Dario Franchitti, and Helio Castroneves were announced tomorrow as a three-car team in 2007.

For most of us here, that's probably a wash. For a once-a-year viewer, though, the first scenario has him wondering who in the hell Scott Speed and Alex Barron are, but he knows Helio won at Indy twice (once?) and he knows Franchitti is married to Ashley Judd.

In general, nationality gets way overblown in the media. It simply isn't that important outside of NASCAR. People want established drivers and competitive racing. I've seen tons of American fans at the racetrack, and most of them either don't really have a driver preference at all, or are firmly in the Tracy/Bourdais/Wilson camps because those are the guys who have proven they can win at this level and are relevant today because of their team situations.

I will never understand why people believe that American fans require an American driver in order to become interested. The evidence to contradict that is overwhelming, the biggest exhibit being (ironically) the failed first five years of the IRL, which was heavy on Americans that nobody gave a crap about because they had never proven they could compete at the top level.

For me personally, a driver's mental approach, attitude, and style are far more important than where he calls home, and most people I meet at the track are the same way. I don't see any evidence that the people out there who are not watching Champ Car would be different, but for many of them NASCAR is the only frame of reference they have with motorsports. If we're going to draw those people away from NASCAR and towards Champ Car, we need to be as different from NASCAR as possible, yet the media jumps all over us for not taking the NASCAR approach in filling the field with homers. It just doesn't make any sense.

[G.]

With all due respect, my Aussie friend, I would say just the opposite.

To grow a series, to generate greater interest from the now casual fan or someone who knows nothing of the sport, new fans, there needs to be at least one home grown icon to cheer for. We here, on the other hand, the fans (I would hope) who would be fans regardless of the flag on the cockpit, have nothing to do with the growth of the series. That is, unless you introduce newbies to it, like I try to do all the time. With that thought in mind, the newbie would more easily identify him or her self to the series, and hence become a new fan (that growth thing...) if there were a driver from their home state, or region of the country.

Image? Already tarnished, in part because of the lack of Americans.
That's what I was thinking.

[FCYTravis]

Nobody is going to care about a remnant racing series that runs on streets with a revolving door of drivers no one's ever heard of before except a handful of Tony haters who'll watch it just out of spite of him.
Yup.

[Spicoli]

Detrimental to it's growth? :confused: Hell no!

Detrimental to it's image as a NAOW racing series? Absolutely.


:thumbup:

[FCYTravis]

The evidence to contradict that is overwhelming, the biggest exhibit being (ironically) the failed first five years of the IRL, which was heavy on Americans that nobody gave a crap about because they had never proven they could compete at the top level.
Actually, the evidence shows that Americans paid a lot more attention to the old, no-name, American-heavy old-school Chevy-powered IRL than the "new, improved, yen-powered" IRL of the past four years. There were more cars, more fans and higher ratings back then than there are now. In either series.

[Spicoli]

Actually, the evidence shows that Americans paid a lot more attention to the old, no-name, American-heavy old-school Chevy-powered IRL than the "new, improved, yen-powered" IRL of the past four years. There were more cars, more fans and higher ratings back then than there are now. In either series.

Exactly Travis.


I didn't really mind the old EARL. wankfest NASCAR rejects/wannabees, recycled losers from Yerp (Cheeber), ride buyers, hangers ons, and just plain losers made it sorta fun in that "look at the gomers" sense.

Then, as predicted, fTG went for the power grab, lightened the family estate by a QUARTER BILLION, and lost all sense of credibility in the racing world.

BOT - So-nuff, we need us some 'Maericans. :thumbup:

(btw - isn;t PT an american yet? :gomer:

[Sean O'Gorman]

While it doesn't really matter where drivers come from, the fact that there are no Americans shows that Champ Car really has no interest in finding talent and moving it up the ranks, which is a major reason why this series is going nowhere.

If they were as concerned about finding talented drivers who can be turned into engaging personalities as they are in starting up more s***** street courses, maybe there would be some sponsors on the sidepods.

[emjaya]

Is Not Having an American in Champ Car Detrimental to its Growth?

It's growth in the USA: HELL Yes.
The rest of the world : No.

When Champcar get into Surfers later this year the newspapers and tv will be focused on one team and one man, Team Australia and Will Power.It's the same with F1 and Mark Webber, everybody wants to see the hometown boy do good.

The same goes in Canada with PT and Tags and Ranger, and Mexico and Mario, having a local driver helps raise the profile of the race.imho.

Btw, to me, CC needs a race in Brazil.

Champcar needs more 'mericans, but is there any that want to drive in Champcar.That's the real problem, getting more drivers and more teams for them to drive in, not just shuffling the pack around a limited amount of places available.

:)

[Ed_Severson]

Actually, the evidence shows that Americans paid a lot more attention to the old, no-name, American-heavy old-school Chevy-powered IRL than the "new, improved, yen-powered" IRL of the past four years.

I'd say that's more a function of carrying momentum forward from 1995 via Indianapolis, fans becoming disillusioned as a result of the split in general, and the gradual realization of the various levels of hypocrisy that the IRL was founded upon, but there are so many factors at play that it's difficult to pinpoint one thing as the reason for the decline. More important than the comparison of 1996-2000 and 2001-present is the simple fact that the IRL was a failure in any era.

[FCYTravis]

Champcar needs more 'mericans, but is there any that want to drive in Champcar.
There's dozens who want to drive in Champ Car, but they don't want to or can't afford to write big checks to teams to buy rides.

Some of them, like Jon Fogarty, Michael McDowell, Joey Hand, et al., have basically given up on Champ Car and focused their careers on sports car racing. They might not come back even if you offered 'em a competitive ride.

Champ Car ignored its ladder series long enough to give American drivers the impression that the series didn't care about them. So a lot of the drivers don't care about Champ Car either.

[formulaben]

Until this time next week, we really can't say for sure we've lost "an American." My money is on a seat swap/rotation. Having said that, even though I personally couldn't care less how many 'mericans are in the series, it is probably better for the growth of the sport to have several Yanks. But 0, 1, 2...it doesn't really matter.

[Lux Interior]

I am not too worried about AJ. He will end up somewhere. I have heard he has a bad attitude, so maybe he was bringing down the team. This may be a big reality check for him. He's still young after all. Looking at the way Justin Wilson has been driving this year, it's easy to understand his frustration. Bordais cleaning everyone's clock doesn't help morale either.

I think that with a new, more affordable chassis coming, we will see some more sponsors and teams and probably more americans.

I'm not saying that american drivers are needed for the hard-core champcar fans, but for the people that may go a race once a year and maybe watch a race or two on TV - the casual fans - having more americans is probably more important.

[Rob]

If drivers' nationalities weren't important, Champ Car wouldn't have the Nations' Cup.

[Insomniac]

Of course it is. Do you think not having any Americans helps sponsorship? How many U.S. operated sports are there with only foreign competitors? The ratings aren't going to get better with no Americans.

[Insomniac]

While it doesn't really matter where drivers come from, the fact that there are no Americans shows that Champ Car really has no interest in finding talent and moving it up the ranks, which is a major reason why this series is going nowhere.

If they were as concerned about finding talented drivers who can be turned into engaging personalities as they are in starting up more s***** street courses, maybe there would be some sponsors on the sidepods.

This makes no sense. What do you want from the Champ Car leaders? They're trying to keep the series alive and then grow it. They can't do everything at once and pay for everything as well. They have rejuvinated the Atlantics and are trying to get a real feeder series to grow talent. Short of just buying rides for American's, they are doing quite a bit.

[FCYTravis]

They have rejuvinated the Atlantics and are trying to get a real feeder series to grow talent.
They *had* a real feeder series, until Champ Car owners completely ignored all of its graduates in favor of the next big thing with a check from Brazil.

It's hardly surprising that Atlantics had so much trouble drawing drivers when it became apparent that you could win the championship not once, but TWICE, and still get completely ignored by Champ Car team owners. Who wants to pay for a ride in a ladder that leads to nowhere?

[jonovision_man]

They *had* a real feeder series, until Champ Car owners completely ignored all of its graduates in favor of the next big thing with a check from Brazil.

It's hardly surprising that Atlantics had so much trouble drawing drivers when it became apparent that you could win the championship not once, but TWICE, and still get completely ignored by Champ Car team owners. Who wants to pay for a ride in a ladder that leads to nowhere?

The new Atlantics series looks plenty strong... it's back to being a serious feeders series, and the winner getting money toward a ride is a nice touch.

Whatever was wrong in the past, things seem to be turning around.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and obviously the series needs an American. I'm not even American and I see that. People need someone to cheer for, and while big race fans might be able to relate to drivers we like to watch, as an "entry" fan the first thing they look for is a fellow countryman... I watched a wife-carrying race from Finland today because there were Canadians competing. :) I wish I was joking.

jono

[Insomniac]

They *had* a real feeder series, until Champ Car owners completely ignored all of its graduates in favor of the next big thing with a check from Brazil.

It's hardly surprising that Atlantics had so much trouble drawing drivers when it became apparent that you could win the championship not once, but TWICE, and still get completely ignored by Champ Car team owners. Who wants to pay for a ride in a ladder that leads to nowhere?

Well, there's not much you can do about what CART did, or even the past for that matter. The new management recognizes the importance of Atalnatics and took a lot of steps to show that, and now there were 29, 28 and 24 cars this season with a brand new package.

[Ankf00]

If drivers' nationalities weren't important, Champ Car wouldn't have the Nations' Cup.
WGAF about nation's cup, seriously...

[gjc2]

WGAF about nation's cup, seriously...


I don't pay any attention to the Nations Cup. Doesn't the country with the most representation always win?

George

[Lux Interior]

Yeah I never paid attention to that either. I DO wish that champcar could have two car teams like F1 does and have a team championship. That would be great. :thumbup:

[JT265]

Who wants to pay for a ride in a ladder that leads to nowhere?

Well, the DP fields do seem to be quite full. :p

[Insomniac]

I don't pay any attention to the Nations Cup. Doesn't the country with the most representation always win?

George

I think the top scoring person for that country only gets points that go to the Nation's Cup. And I'd probably care more, and they'd probably show the standings if America was in the battle. Otherwise, I don't care that France won it (if they did).

[nrc]

They *had* a real feeder series, until Champ Car owners completely ignored all of its graduates in favor of the next big thing with a check from Brazil.

You're confusing two issues. Ride buying happens in almost all motorsports. If the economic condition of the sport dictates that an owner needs someone to pay for a ride, that's what will happen. The only relation that has to why talented drivers don't get rides is purely the fact that there are so few rides left in Champ car that don't require some kind of contribution from the driver.

The real feeder series was Indy Lights. Almost every Indy Lights champion got a shot in Champ car. Robertson and Emperingham are notable exceptions.

Unfortunately TG's IRL adventure kicked the legs out from under what was really becoming a pretty good feeder system. Early IRL teams desperate for any kind of sponsorship took sponsors and drivers from Lights and Atlantics leaving both those series sucking wind.

There were legitimate questions about whether Altantics alone was adequate preperation for Champ car. Altantic grads usually seemed to take longer to get up to speed than Lights grads.

The biggest problem for drivers coming out of the American feeders who want to earn a ride based on talent has been patience. Everyone wants results now and the bottom line has been that owners believe talent from European series give them results faster. Is that legitimate or just perception?

In AJ's case, I think the notion that his results merit this kind of impatience is nonsense. He came in with a new one car team that was expanded to two cars at the last moment and he still beat Wilson, with his F1 experience, for ROY. Since Wilson has joined the team AJ's results have been very comparable. Only two mistakes where AJ threw away wins separate the two.

Now Russo has fallen victim to that same impatience, throwing away one of the best young talents in search of instant gratification. Of course AJ is going to be less mature than his teammate, he's younger and less experienced. Is it such a surprise that a hyper-competitive young driver would be frustrated with his start this season? He's taken out in turn one of the first race through no fault of his own. Twice this season he has out-qualified his teammate. In one case he goes backwards because of set-up problems, in the other he takes the lead only to hand it back to his team mate in the pits.

But AJ is expected to handle with the same aplomb as his teammate who had a season of F1 while he was in Atlantic; his teammate who was racing European F3000 while he was still running karts.

Carl Russo is putting his desire to beat Newman Haas now ahead of the long term best interests of his team. It's stupid.

Anyone looking at the long term should be considering this a throw-away season. Anyone looking at the big picture should be taking the opportunity to develop a great young talent in preperation for next year where everyone will be starting from scratch.

Stupid.

[FCYTravis]

Well, the DP fields do seem to be quite full. :p
Very true. Why have all these talented open-wheel drivers ended up in DPs and LMPs? There's lots of paid rides available for talented drivers.

No checkbook needed - there's owners who will *pay* you to race for them, either as part of a gentleman-and-hotshoe team or as part of a sponsored full-on pro outfit.

In an environment where talent is more important than the amount of money you can bring with you, it's interesting to note that in the top-10 finishers at Watkins Glen were seven Toyota Atlantic graduates - Diaz, Figge, Gidley, Cosmo, Fogarty, Dalziel and Gurney - along with Star Mazda champion Michael McDowell.

[FCYTravis]

Anyone looking at the long term should be considering this a throw-away season. Anyone looking at the big picture should be taking the opportunity to develop a great young talent in preperation for next year where everyone will be starting from scratch.
Agreed.

[Insomniac]

You're confusing two issues. Ride buying happens in almost all motorsports. If the economic condition of the sport dictates that an owner needs someone to pay for a ride, that's what will happen. The only relation that has to why talented drivers don't get rides is purely the fact that there are so few rides left in Champ car that don't require some kind of contribution from the driver.

The real feeder series was Indy Lights. Almost every Indy Lights champion got a shot in Champ car. Robertson and Emperingham are notable exceptions.

Unfortunately TG's IRL adventure kicked the legs out from under what was really becoming a pretty good feeder system. Early IRL teams desperate for any kind of sponsorship took sponsors and drivers from Lights and Atlantics leaving both those series sucking wind.

There were legitimate questions about whether Altantics alone was adequate preperation for Champ car. Altantic grads usually seemed to take longer to get up to speed than Lights grads.

The biggest problem for drivers coming out of the American feeders who want to earn a ride based on talent has been patience. Everyone wants results now and the bottom line has been that owners believe talent from European series give them results faster. Is that legitimate or just perception?

In AJ's case, I think the notion that his results merit this kind of impatience is nonsense. He came in with a new one car team that was expanded to two cars at the last moment and he still beat Wilson, with his F1 experience, for ROY. Since Wilson has joined the team AJ's results have been very comparable. Only two mistakes where AJ threw away wins separate the two.

Now Russo has fallen victim to that same impatience, throwing away one of the best young talents in search of instant gratification. Of course AJ is going to be less mature than his teammate, he's younger and less experienced. Is it such a surprise that a hyper-competitive young driver would be frustrated with his start this season? He's taken out in turn one of the first race through no fault of his own. Twice this season he has out-qualified his teammate. In one case he goes backwards because of set-up problems, in the other he takes the lead only to hand it back to his team mate in the pits.

But AJ is expected to handle with the same aplomb as his teammate who had a season of F1 while he was in Atlantic; his teammate who was racing European F3000 while he was still running karts.

Carl Russo is putting his desire to beat Newman Haas now ahead of the long term best interests of his team. It's stupid.

Anyone looking at the long term should be considering this a throw-away season. Anyone looking at the big picture should be taking the opportunity to develop a great young talent in preperation for next year where everyone will be starting from scratch.

Stupid.

I agree with the overall point of your post, but I dn't think AJ was released because he didn't get a win or follow Bourdais close enough. I'd take Russo's words at face value. He sees and knows AJ's talent, and even said he expects him to win. He didn't fit in with the team, and I personally read that as he was difficult to work with.

[ferrarigod]

At this point, no, becuase no one watches this series. However if it was gaining steam it would start to hurt later on.

I agree. I personally don't care, but I doubt that I'm the typical American sports fan.

[RTKar]

A North American based racing series needs predominantly North American drivers. There are enough examples out there of nationalism boosting interest in a racing series or Formula. It's not exclusive to the US.