Steve Horne/Merger -> Phillips article

[RichK]

Good article - Horne makes a lot of sense.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/27120/

[Wheel-Nut]

I like the "run what you brung" mentality. :thumbup:

[cameraman]

I doubt they are that close. Maybe do an ALMS-like two class thing.

Especially if the Champ Car teams own no speedway wings.

[G.]

Yeah, he makes some sense, but he is forgetting the FTG factor.

I think ___king Tony will torpedo any reasonable compromise.


and that Champ Car’s spec Panoz DP01 will be unsuited to high speed ovals? Also, I wish the media would quit saying that (unless it's true, of course).

That's just Wilke food.

[KLang]

I think (with a merger) there will be an explosion of interest at all levels, from fans, media, TV, sponsors, manufacturers. So to me the challenge would be, ‘How do we take care of this explosion?’ It’s such a positive problem

I think this is a pipe dream. :shakehead

[rabbit]

I think this is a pipe dream. :shakeheadAs a member of the media, I have to disagree. When I talk to people, even fellow sportswriters with no interest in racing, I always get asked, "So are the two sides together yet?" There are a lot of people in media circles waiting for an announcement. I also get a lot of fans of non-open-wheel racing who ask me the same question. Frankly, I've been surprised at the amount of interest.

[TravelGal]

As a member of the media, I have to disagree. When I talk to people, even fellow sportswriters with no interest in racing, I always get asked, "So are the two sides together yet?" There are a lot of people in media circles waiting for an announcement. I also get a lot of fans of non-open-wheel racing who ask me the same question. Frankly, I've been surprised at the amount of interest.

But if you said, "YES, they are!" would there be more than a nod of the head? Would they come charging through the gates to cover the revitalized series? I'm not so sure.

[rabbit]

But if you said, "YES, they are!" would there be more than a nod of the head? Would they come charging through the gates to cover the revitalized series? I'm not so sure.I don't know that they will "come charging through the gates. I just know how the decisions as to what gets covered and what doesn't are made. Right now, CCWS (and IRL for that matter) have little in the way of legitimacy in the eyes of most media. A single series would go a loooooong way towards reestablishing that. (Keep in mind, literally nine out 10 questions I field have to do with a possible merger. As someone who has a pretty good feel on the pulse of the media, I think many of you are way underestimating the impact that a merger will have.)

[pchall]

I wonder if Horne is so pro Honda and pro Dallara because Clarke and Honda are flapping a ¥en teat at him? Tasman was running Hondas way back when. I also find it interesting that Phillips hooks up with Horne for an interview now, when he's having more and more trouble finding pro IRL and pro Honda talking points to support the merger agenda he has worked for years in his commentaries.

[Spicoli]

I don't know that they will "come charging through the gates. I just know how the decisions as to what gets covered and what doesn't are made. Right now, CCWS (and IRL for that matter) have little in the way of legitimacy in the eyes of most media. A single series would go a loooooong way towards reestablishing that. (Keep in mind, literally nine out 10 questions I field have to do with a possible merger. As someone who has a pretty good feel on the pulse of the media, I think many of you are way underestimating the impact that a merger will have.)

I agree with rarebit.


The number one story about OW, even here in Indy, is about the split.

Together, the 2 sides will hopefully combine their ad power, sponsor power, and media power, and present an easy to "get" series that people can get into. I think the "burnt out on NASCAR" and "ready for something new" crowds will emerge very soon. I think stability in teams/drivers/sponsors and schedules, etc. are things they haven't done very well so far.


the merger won't cure everything, and it will take some hard work and some patience, but with a merger there is hope. with 2 series, its confusing, amateurish and as we have seen, a magnet of apathy.

[Cam]

Ummm..... WOW!!!! That is the best I have EVER seen it put! :thumbup:

[Louie]

Ummm..... WOW!!!! That is the best I have EVER seen it put! :thumbup:

ditto. Thanks Spicoli.

[trauma1]

absolutly assinine, why would CC and KK go to IRL specs, the drivers do not want a car that unsafe, 2nd what fonda wants and what fonda gets this time are 2 totally differant things. The last thing that will happen is fonda dictating to Cc and Kk terms, they fu'ed up OW racing with the yen, why KK would capitulate to fonda when fonda and earl have attempted every low ball tactic to put KK and Cc out of buiseness, this BS of Cc capitulating and dropping the Dp01 is total EARl propaganda, they are scared as hell that chip bobby and others are leaving in 07 and they now are fast tracking the evils of the new panoz. There has been a very well organized effort by earl and others to deep six the new car because they know treams are leaving in 07. has anyone else noticed the campaign by the earl faithfull the full court press to get the DP canceled, and how now they are going to the media now in attempts to sabotage the project,this is why the merger talks have broken down, KK cannnot trust TG and Tg dictating the terms, equipment, and the struture of the future. CC needs to go forward with the new car, they know teams form earl are comeing back next year

[KLang]

As a member of the media, I have to disagree. When I talk to people, even fellow sportswriters with no interest in racing, I always get asked, "So are the two sides together yet?" There are a lot of people in media circles waiting for an announcement. I also get a lot of fans of non-open-wheel racing who ask me the same question. Frankly, I've been surprised at the amount of interest.

Sure the motorsports media would cover the merger announcement, especially in the midwest. But after that.... I'm not so sure.

Even if the media goes nuts covering the merger I fail to see how that automagically translates into new sponsors, or butts in the seats, or eyeballs watching on TV which is what is being suggested. The sponsorship part is IMO obviously the most important. Those folks all went to Nascar or left racing altogether. I just don't see how some sort of merger is suddenly going to bring back all the sponsorship we enjoyed in the good ole days. :(

[trauma1]

howver what i'm reading from these guys in TG's camp is that they do not want a merger they want a total CC capitulation to TG and that is not going to happen, this has been a well organized effort on TG;s part to shift blame for the lack of progress and breakdown because he wants control over everything venues equipemnt ect, and KK isn't going to go down that road, remember when newman said that the terms put forward were a joke, , well this is just TG and earl trying to scare earl teams from defecting next year

[FanofMario]

Interesting read but IMO Thorne is stuck in the past. I agree wholeheartedly with Spicoli's view, but IMO Champcar is at least looking ahead. A new car, attended races and controled costs has to mean something in the name of progress. What does the EARL offer other than Indy? Expensive and **** sounding cars who don't translate well to road or streets and to venues nobody comes to.

I do like the idea of a third person like McGee to get the sides at least talking, but having Thorne involved does not make sense. He was one of the first Yen whores and with Clarke and Honda wanting something done, that does not bode well for turbos. McGee would be a good fit as the instigator of a merger.

[racer2c]

Interesting read but IMO Thorne is stuck in the past. I agree wholeheartedly with Spicoli's view, but IMO Champcar is at least looking ahead. A new car, attended races and controled costs has to mean something in the name of progress. What does the EARL offer other than Indy? Expensive and **** sounding cars who don't translate well to road or streets and to venues nobody comes to.

I do like the idea of a third person like McGee to get the sides at least talking, but having Thorne involved does not make sense. He was one of the first Yen whores and with Clarke and Honda wanting something done, that does not bode well for turbos. McGee would be a good fit as the instigator of a merger.

I agree. I don't want the end of the turbo Champ Car to come with a "flip of the coin". :thumdown:

[trauma1]

thorne doesn't want a "merger" niether does TG and earl they want complete capitulation by KK and CC, that's why the terms have been so comical, they pitch new terms that are so ridiculas that Kk just has to laugh at them, then Tg runs to th epress and crys it's CC fault and that his proposals are being turned down, it's like the MLB players assoc and steriod testing propose ridiculas proposals and cry to the press when they get shot down, The irl is runn akin to the N Y Knicks both are a joke to thier respective sports :shakehead

[skaven]

Upon reflection, I wonder what his motives are... I'll stop short of FSteveHorne, but he could very well be a FTG/ FHonda mole.

At this point, I don't think a merger will be on terms I could live with. The only thing keeping me going is the DP01 and the optimism that comes with the prospect of a sound financial model that will begin a slow and steady recovery.

If they trash the DP01 to appease FTG, then I... am.... outta here. :flame:

[KLang]

Upon reflection, I wonder what his motives are... I'll stop short of FSteveHorne, but he could very well be a FTG/ FHonda mole.

At this point, I don't think a merger will be on terms I could live with. The only thing keeping me going is the DP01 and the optimism that comes with the prospect of a sound financial model that will begin a slow and steady recovery.

If they trash the DP01 to appease FTG, then I... am.... outta here. :flame:

I think another discouraging sign would be the rumored 'leaving may open'. Hopefully KK keeps his eye on the ball.

[Accipiter]

IMO, the window for a merger happening next season is closed. Champ Car really has to move ahead now so that potential new teams like Polestar (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/27176/) can make their decision about whether or not to move ahead now. And I think the most important part of that is continuing with the Panoz chassis plans.

[trauma1]

earl and the tg failthfull are just using the Dp as a smoke screen and sorry ass excuse not merge, then cry to the press it's Cc and the new chassis that's holding up progress, they do not want a merger Tg wants a take over with all the cherry picking he can get, it's the same damn stunt he tried to pull in the courts when he tried to buy cart, feeble attempts to apease other's with motives to control the entire thing, all the talk from Tg and ims is priely bs and a smoke screen, he know he's lossing teams next year, and fonda is cutting spending even more :shakehead

[Andrew Longman]

Build the DP01.

Leave time in May for teams to participate in the 500

Let the teams decide where they want to run. TG doesn't have to agree to anything (except to no refuse CC teams entry, which I doubt even he would have balls to do).

Keep working on making the events valuable for corporate interests

Keep buying network time

Keep improving the on track product (DP01 is a big part of that)

On balance, the lower cost/better venue CCWS model, combined with the I500, should attract IRL and other teams, even though the IRL has a network TV deal (not enough more people watch it to matter much to sponsors and the TV money goes to Tony not the teams)

Merger done, decided by the stakeholder the series owners have to serve anyway.

In 07 or 08 TG realizes the merger happened and accepts his role as track owner and promoter.

[KLang]

Leave time in May for teams to participate in the 500


Why should Champ Car do something that would potentially make their main competitor stronger?

edit to add:
Not sure it really makes much difference these days anyway. Only Haas has show interest.

[Andrew Longman]

Why should Champ Car do something that would potentially make their main competitor stronger?

edit to add:
Not sure it really makes much difference these days anyway. Only Haas has show interest.

CCWS competitor is not the 500 it is the rival series. It is the job of the series to bring value to the participants. In the case of team owners, that value takes the form of proze money and sponsorship value.

Now that the manufacturer money is gone the only value the IRL brings team owners is the 500 and prize money. The 500 alone is obviously a big deal, but if a team can pair it with a series of their choosing they will choose the series that gives them the best value.

The IRL may persist, but only with heavy TG subsidies. It will not survive because it creates value for owners but because for some silly reason TG thinks it does for him.

Now if he starts funding to the tune of AGR, Penske and Gannassi instead of Vision, Panther and Hemelgarn, then there is a problem.

[trauma1]

he did pay them at least initially $$ to defect

[TravelGal]

I don't know that they will "come charging through the gates. I just know how the decisions as to what gets covered and what doesn't are made. Right now, CCWS (and IRL for that matter) have little in the way of legitimacy in the eyes of most media. A single series would go a loooooong way towards reestablishing that. (Keep in mind, literally nine out 10 questions I field have to do with a possible merger. As someone who has a pretty good feel on the pulse of the media, I think many of you are way underestimating the impact that a merger will have.)

Thanks for your reply. Good points, as are Spicoli's. There is tremendous value is having ONE thing to point to. I am in one of two major, national travel agent organizations, and one of two Africa travel organizations. It's a right royal pain. We're always saying, "yes, that's us" or "no, that's the other guys." Agents never know which is which. Same sort of thing.

I happen to be in favor of leaving the month of May open for the short term. It counteracts all the "boo hoo, KK is sabotaging my proposals" junk from TG. The thoughts that a team can play there and sign with either league are good ones. The downside is that it does give the IRL major strength to tout THEIR major event.

It's all a waiting game for the next two years. After that, I think all will be clear. It's just that I'm so tired of having to wait. I guess we all are.

[KLang]

CCWS competitor is not the 500 it is the rival series.

I can't make that distinction. At the present time the 500 is part of the rival series, the rival series would not exist without it. Without some sort of ironclad agreement in hand I see no reason to do anything that will help out FTG's race.

OTOH beside Haas, there doesn't seem to be anyone else left in Champ Car with indyitis. What would be the point?

[trauma1]

it only benifits TG and earl. it' will be no benifit for Cc to keep may open, zip nada, and TG will whine about CC one way or the other, best concentrate on just CC

[nrc]

If a couple of IRL teams were willing to sign up for DP01s if they could take they're old crapwagons in Indy in May, then it would most certainly be good for Champ Car and bad for the IRL.

It entirely depends on their position. If Champ car moves ahead with the DP01 and has a decent schedule and commited teams then leaving May open will be a positive gesture offered from a position of strength. If they're scratching and clawing to get by it will be another foolish attempt to appease Mad 'King George.

[Andrew Longman]

If a couple of IRL teams were willing to sign up for DP01s if they could take they're old crapwagons in Indy in May, then it would most certainly be good for Champ Car and bad for the IRL.

It entirely depends on their position. If Champ car moves ahead with the DP01 and has a decent schedule and commited teams then leaving May open will be a positive gesture offered from a position of strength. If they're scratching and clawing to get by it will be another foolish attempt to appease Mad 'King George.

Yes. That's entirely my point. And while maybe only Haas has Indyitis, taking this approach would also entice the Indyitis teams to move from the IRL to CC. The prospects of RP, BR, MA and Chip moving back may not please some CC fans it would please TG even less. The whole point is to provide a business situation that is more attractive to teams than the competition.

As for the CC teams without Indyitis, I'm sure all of them would go if it helped them acquire more sponsorship and if it can't do that then the series is screwed anyway.

[KLang]

The prospects of RP, BR, MA and Chip moving back may not please some CC fans it would please TG even less.

That one is probably another pipe dream as well. :p

[Dr. Corkski]

As for the CC teams without Indyitis, I'm sure all of them would go if it helped them acquire more sponsorship and if it can't do that then the series is screwed anyway.Not possible, I'm sure all of them would rather parade around beach volleyball festivals with fake sponsors.

[oddlycalm]

While the media, the team owners and most everyone else feels that a combined series would be bigger and better than the sum of it's parts, I don't see it happening by agreement. TG is after the same thing he's always been after; control of the entire entity. And if he forgets that for a moment he has plenty of people around to remind him that it's his entitlement. :saywhat:

Horne is right about one thing, the only reason not to do this is fear. Fear is what you have when you are running a business without any business background nor any of the necessary tools for the job. TG's fear is the reason KK had to take the personal approach with this idiot. If he can't get it done my guess is that nobody can.

At the point KK throws up his hands you may see defacto unification take place, though I doubt it, but even if it does you can count on TG to throw a wrench into the works by changing the entry rules for mindy participation.

I'm skeptical about teams jumping from the EARL to CCWS because of the sponsorship issues. Lower costs but no sponsors doesn't seem like much of an attraction. I can see CCWS building on Atlantics and the DP01 to quietly build a reasonable series over time, but only if the economy remains stable and strong. One good economic downdraft and it's over for both series IMO.

oc