That was crasharific [Archive] - Page 2

Joelski

06-29-06, 09:37 AM

The N/H drivers were just follwing their line while Tracy once again divebombed for a gap that was optimistic at best and was rapidly closing by the time he even began his move.

Bourdais was spun around because he got punted by that overrated jackass. :thumdown:

It's never Paul Tracy's fault. :gomer:

Whatever. Give Hampson a smoochie when you snuggle up tonight. :gomer:

Joelski

06-29-06, 09:46 AM

Once again:

Bourdais was turned sideways when Tracy's front hit his rear.

Bourdais' car didn't speed up until after Tracy's car was starting to push against his helmet and knocking him out.

Whether you want to believe the truth it's up to you.

I didn't see you in the blimp getting the primo overhead view. :thumbsup:

(Oh wait.. there was no blimp...)

Which means: YOU ARE MAKING THIS CRAP UP!!! Nice try Cork', thanks for playin'! :D You are soooo cool! You should maybe replace Daily. Hell, let's all chip in and buy Cork' a crayon like DD and Madden have so's he can draw us some pictures! :gomer:

Insomniac

06-29-06, 09:48 AM

I'm going to take it by all the silence that PT didn't run into the back of Junky and Bourdais. ;)

Dr. Corkski

06-29-06, 11:27 AM

No reason to continue debating if it's been made clear that posts that focus on personal attacks rather than the topic are going to be allowed.

Insomniac

06-29-06, 11:57 AM

No reason to continue debating if it's been made clear that posts that focus on personal attacks rather than the topic are going to be allowed.

Seems like you're choosing to focus on those posts that are in the minority rather than the ones that address the topic, and specifically, what you claim to have happened.

Ankf00

06-29-06, 12:04 PM

if the cars were wheel to wheel, how did PT's front end get air, blinky?

Dirty Sanchez

06-29-06, 12:16 PM

meh, pretty pointless argument considering the number of crashes PT had all weekend. how many offs was it? 4 or 5?! real nice job taking out pastorelli too :gomer:

he looked like an amateur all weekend=DNF :cry:

Joelski

06-29-06, 12:39 PM

On topic, the argument at hand was that PT was responsible for the crash. It simply is not possible to make that assertion with the video and photos that are available, and belaboring that point will get you the defender treatment. PT said his front wheel touched Sebastien's front wheel: the scuff on Kermy's sidepod is from PT's rear tire climbing the car as the spin occured. First hand is as good an account as can be had, I fear; all three were participants, none to blame squarely. It's not my job to make excuses for PT's driving habits, but as a fan, I sometimes admire his aggressive nature and I sometimes cringe at the disparity of balls to brains. Like him or not, there's no need to launch an agenda-driven campaign against him when your favorite driver clearly sucked just as much. :cheers:

Insomniac

06-29-06, 03:10 PM

if the cars were wheel to wheel, how did PT's front end get air, blinky?

Generally speaking, on track, isn't there pretty much only one way to get air in a ChampCar? Touch your tires to something else. Wheel to wheel with SB could lift his front right up. Add Junky on the otherside, their rear wheels could've touched which basically spun PT to knock his Junky's wing off and turn him towards SB's cockpit and onto his car. Or perhaps both his wheels touched with SB's and lifted him off the ground and SB under him turned him around and knocked of Junky's wing.

From my perspective it seems like 3 guys fighting for the same position with plenty of room on the track. Not the smartest move for any of them, but your typical beginning of the race, get as many positions I can thing.

On a side note, given the desire to move up so much, why is it still not worth it to start with a lighter fuel load? Is the penalty for stopping earlier that large that you'd rather be stuck following other cars falling further and furhter back from the leader?

Ankf00

06-29-06, 04:34 PM

On a side note, given the desire to move up so much, why is it still not worth it to start with a lighter fuel load? Is the penalty for stopping earlier that large that you'd rather be stuck following other cars falling further and furhter back from the leader?
regarding the final question, no clue but maybe with the preponderance of FCY's there's less to be gained from light load starts vs. F1?

Generally speaking, on track, isn't there pretty much only one way to get air in a ChampCar? Touch your tires to something else. Wheel to wheel with SB could lift his front right up. Add Junky on the otherside, their rear wheels could've touched which basically spun PT to knock his Junky's wing off and turn him towards SB's cockpit and onto his car. Or perhaps both his wheels touched with SB's and lifted him off the ground and SB under him turned him around and knocked of Junky's wing.

From my perspective it seems like 3 guys fighting for the same position with plenty of room on the track. Not the smartest move for any of them, but your typical beginning of the race, get as many positions I can thing.
now, the video is crap quality, so there's not much to be gleaned from it, but if PT was launched as he was, most likely he was the rearmost car. with wheel to wheel contact, the easiest way to catch air, in this case assume front wheels of both cars, is the following car to drive up and over the wheel of the frontmost car just by the nature of the tire rotation. for clarification i'm just discussing the semantics of it, don't gaf about fault or whatever and all I have to go by are photos & that replay... PT is optomistically "even" at the point of contact imo

grungex

06-29-06, 05:16 PM

No reason to continue debating if it's been made clear that posts that focus on personal attacks rather than the topic are going to be allowed.
This from the guy that called me "commafanatic" instead of addressing my point, and then in a fit of craven weeniedom went back and erased the evidence when I called him on it. GMAFB, can you be more hypocritical?

grungex

06-29-06, 05:22 PM

real nice job taking out pastorelli too
Oh please, Pastorelli didn't have a chance of making that pass, he brought it on himself.

Dr. Corkski

06-29-06, 05:36 PM

This from the guy that called me "commafanatic" instead of addressing my point, and then in a fit of craven weeniedom went back and erased the evidence when I called him on it. GMAFB, can you be more hypocritical?*Yawn*

I was asked to edit it by TPTB. In anycase it wasn't even addressed to you specifically. You aren't important enough for me to even waste a personal attack on, what makes you think I would even edit a post just because of you. :laugh:

Amazing how you can claim Tracy was completely side-by-side and wheel-to-wheel with Bourdais but you won't let go of Bourdais' car being turned around. But let's not let a real discussion get in the way of the lynch mob.

You want fries with that too? :gomer:

rabbit

06-29-06, 05:44 PM

Amazing how you can claim Tracy was completely side-by-side and wheel-to-wheel with Bourdais but you won't let go of Bourdais' car being turned around.What I find amazing is that you continue to assert that Tracy hit Bruno from behind but still don't have an explanation as to why Tracy's front wing wasn't damaged until his car landed after going over Seabass. Or why Bruno's car had damage in front of the rear wheel but no flat tire. Or why Seabass' right side tires and Bruno's left rear had the sidewalls completely scrubbed off (the sidewalls must have been knocked off by the impact from the rear :laugh: ).

Actually, I don't find that amazing. You've never been one to let facts get in the way of an argument. :thumdown:

Dr. Corkski

06-29-06, 05:55 PM

What I find amazing is that you continue to assert that Tracy hit Bruno from behind but still don't have an explanation as to why Tracy's front wing wasn't damaged until his car landed after going over Seabass. Or why Bruno's car had damage in front of the rear wheel but no flat tire. Or why Seabass' right side tires and Bruno's left rear had the sidewalls completely scrubbed off (the sidewalls must have been knocked off by the impact from the rear :laugh: ).

Actually, I don't find that amazing. You've never been one to let facts get in the way of an argument. :thumdown:Where did I specifically say Bruno was hit directy from behind by Tracy? Oh yeah, you made it up. :gomer:

But that's not surprising since it's known you have been out to get me since you hate me about more than even I hate Tracy. :laugh:

Dirty Sanchez

06-29-06, 06:06 PM

Oh please, Pastorelli didn't have a chance of making that pass, he brought it on himself.irony! :laugh:

the same could be said for tracy's "move" on bourdais.

rabbit

06-29-06, 06:14 PM

Photographic evidence says they weren't 3-wide. Bourdais was clearly ahead and was on his way back onto the racing line well before Tracy made his move. If Tracyw as truely side-by-side with the N/H cars then he wouldn't have hit both of them in the rear. :gomer:

rabbit

06-29-06, 06:20 PM

But that's not surprising since it's known you have been out to get me since you hate me about more than even I hate Tracy. :laugh:
I don't hate you. I hate stupidity.

Dr. Corkski

06-29-06, 06:20 PM

Rear half of the car. :gomer:

Dr. Corkski

06-29-06, 06:21 PM

I don't hate you. I hate stupidity.Yeah and I don't hate Paul Tracy. I just hate stupidity. :gomer:

rabbit

06-29-06, 06:23 PM

Rear half of the car. :gomer:So SB chops down on PT, forcing him into the "rear half" ;) of BJ's sidepod and that's somehow PT's fault? :saywhat:

Let the PT hate go brutha. The preponderance of evidence is against you.

Dirty Sanchez

06-29-06, 06:26 PM

huh? chopping down is not the same as holding your line through a corner.

rabbit

06-29-06, 06:30 PM

http://www.amberbamberboo.com/images/uploads/Whatever.jpg

Sean O'Gorman

06-29-06, 07:13 PM

I don't hate you. I hate stupidity.

Well, I for one hate Cork. :thumbup:

grungex

06-29-06, 07:19 PM

In anycase it wasn't even addressed to you specifically.
Another lie. Pathetic. :thumdown:

Dr. Corkski

06-29-06, 07:25 PM

Let the PT hate go brutha.I don't hate PT. I hate stupidity. :gomer:

nrc

06-29-06, 08:57 PM

There's no question that they were side-by-side when there was contact. It's quite clear in the head-on replay where they go out of frame immediately after the initial contact.

Tracy was along side. Bourdais had plenty of room but he chose to squeeze Tracy because he had lost momentum by going off the road and he knew Tracy was going past. His only hope to hold the position was to squeeze Tracy and and try to screw-up his line into 3 enough to retake the position on the exit. He didn't count on his teammate being on the other side.

http://offcamber.net/images/frame1.jpg
http://offcamber.net/images/frame2.jpg
http://offcamber.net/images/frame3.jpg

Sorry for the quality, the shot was pretty fuzzy to begin with and my Tivo is too far away for my capture card. This is a cropped snapshot of the screen.

Meanwhile back in this thread, some of you are on thin ice. If you would like to discuss these images, please do. Please leave the personal sniping out of it.

RichK

06-29-06, 09:16 PM

Images are pretty conclusive, I'd say.

Nice to see some passion about a Champcar race as well. :)

RTKar

06-29-06, 10:01 PM

First thing I thought of was "Gawd...I wish I could renew my tickets now"!
My guests who attended their first CC race (they've been to about 5 F1 races) said it was the greatest race they went to. On the way home they were making a list of who else they want to invite!

It would be interesting to hear their impressions of the race compared to their experience with F1. Get them to join OC.

It is good to hear some passion about a race for a change. Cleveland is a race built for aggressive drivers, wide track, level site lines, grass runoff. I expect incidents. I imagine the drivers climb into the cockpit knowing they aren't going to lay back for passing in the pits type of racing that we see on most temporary courses. We all know turn 1 tends to be a cluster, it's wide then pinches down. I'd guess it's almost an optical illusion of openess from the cockpit as you're hurtling off from the start on a wide airport runway. I actually think Cleveland should try standing starts and possibly grid the cars wider apart. It may allow for more cars making it to lap two. (???)

Generally yellows annoy me, more so for how long CC has taken to clear the track and some questionable FCY's and how they have impacted the product; ie, timed races...hate 'em. They totally destroy race strategy ,and what has built up over the previous laps, not to mention leaving fans confused. As far as Cleveland goes, the old adages "Discretion is the better part of valor" and "You can't win the race on the first lap" should be handed out at the drivers meeting for all to read, whether they'd remember by the time they strapped in, who knows. Between rookie mistakes, old rivalries rekindled, a sliver of daylight, I think it's just very difficult not to be aggressive at Cleveland.

jonovision_man

06-29-06, 10:54 PM

Tracy was along side. Bourdais had plenty of room but he chose to squeeze Tracy because he had lost momentum by going off the road and he knew Tracy was going past. His only hope to hold the position was to squeeze Tracy and and try to screw-up his line into 3 enough to retake the position on the exit. He didn't count on his teammate being on the other side.

You got it IMO. Just one of those racing things.

jono

Insomniac

06-30-06, 09:32 AM

now, the video is crap quality, so there's not much to be gleaned from it, but if PT was launched as he was, most likely he was the rearmost car. with wheel to wheel contact, the easiest way to catch air, in this case assume front wheels of both cars, is the following car to drive up and over the wheel of the frontmost car just by the nature of the tire rotation. for clarification i'm just discussing the semantics of it, don't gaf about fault or whatever and all I have to go by are photos & that replay... PT is optomistically "even" at the point of contact imo

I've seen sidewall to sidewall do it too. Especially when there is a speed difference between the two cars. I go back to the picture of SB's tires not having the red sidewalls anymore. Something rubbed that off and I don't recall seeing any rubber on PT's sidepod. Also, for PT to drive into one of his tires, wouldn't part of his wing be gone? And somehow, it was all pretty much there when he landed.

dando

06-30-06, 11:07 AM

There's no question that they were side-by-side when there was contact. It's quite clear in the head-on replay where they go out of frame immediately after the initial contact.

Tracy was along side. Bourdais had plenty of room but he chose to squeeze Tracy because he had lost momentum by going off the road and he knew Tracy was going past. His only hope to hold the position was to squeeze Tracy and and try to screw-up his line into 3 enough to retake the position on the exit. He didn't count on his teammate being on the other side.

<snip>

Sorry for the quality, the shot was pretty fuzzy to begin with and my Tivo is too far away for my capture card. This is a cropped snapshot of the screen.

Meanwhile back in this thread, some of you are on thin ice. If you would like to discuss these images, please do. Please leave the personal sniping out of it.

Thanks, boss. That was my take as well after replaying it several times last night. It's too bad that there wasn't better coverage of the incident, and that it was missed as it happened. The cameras and the broadcasters were focused on the T1 incident. :( :saywhat:

I'll take the high road on this thread, but there is clearly a bias by some of the opinions posted in this thread. :thumdown:

-Kevin

Andrew Longman

06-30-06, 11:29 AM

You know lost in all this is the fact that SB and BJ were, for the second race in a row, shuffled way back on the start. What's up with that?

rabbit

06-30-06, 01:49 PM

Good post nrc. Those caps definitely make it look like wheel-to-wheel contact between PT and SB.

Ankf00

06-30-06, 02:12 PM

There's no question that they were side-by-side when there was contact. It's quite clear in the head-on replay where they go out of frame immediately after the initial contact.

Tracy was along side. Bourdais had plenty of room but he chose to squeeze Tracy because he had lost momentum by going off the road and he knew Tracy was going past. His only hope to hold the position was to squeeze Tracy and and try to screw-up his line into 3 enough to retake the position on the exit. He didn't count on his teammate being on the other side.

Sorry for the quality, the shot was pretty fuzzy to begin with and my Tivo is too far away for my capture card. This is a cropped snapshot of the screen.

Meanwhile back in this thread, some of you are on thin ice. If you would like to discuss these images, please do. Please leave the personal sniping out of it.

b..b..but you said in the Texas Ohio State thread that 2D images are worthless with depth perception and you can't judge anything by them :gomer:

j/k :D

Ankf00

06-30-06, 02:14 PM

huh? chopping down is not the same as holding your line through a corner.
werd.

rabbit

06-30-06, 02:24 PM

Calling turn 2 a corner is a bit of a stretch. Drivers have taken an infinite number of lines through there over the past 25 years. Sebastien, God bless him, could have avoided that contact without giving up much in terms of the racing line.

Ankf00

06-30-06, 02:26 PM

I've seen sidewall to sidewall do it too. Especially when there is a speed difference between the two cars. I go back to the picture of SB's tires not having the red sidewalls anymore. Something rubbed that off and I don't recall seeing any rubber on PT's sidepod. Also, for PT to drive into one of his tires, wouldn't part of his wing be gone? And somehow, it was all pretty much there when he landed.

you're right something rubbed off on Seb's tires, the launching that way can happen w/ some solid contact and a difference in rotational velocity of the wheels, but as for the wing, the front tires extend a good deal past the wing, the majority of the tire actually, whether it was sidewall or tire surface, I have no solid evidence from the images, but the solid wing evidence in no way even remotely precludes one tire riding up on the other.

from nrc's images, to me, looks like they bump dead on, PT gets the worst of it and slows down further, then he rides Seb's tire from behind, but, again, all i've seen are these images & youtube & the images & video are sketchy to begin with... I don't know...

Ankf00

06-30-06, 02:27 PM

cameraman

06-30-06, 02:51 PM

Because if he doesn't alter his line he will crash out of the race.

rabbit

06-30-06, 03:44 PM

why should the lead driver have to alter his line at all?
Like cameraman said, to stay in the race. It's pretty stupid to think, "If I stay on my line, I'll crash, but at least that bastard won't get around me." Additionally, if someone goes off course as Sebastien did, then he needs to realize, especially on the start, that there will be several cars that will have a good run on him coming off the turn.

Dr. Corkski

06-30-06, 04:28 PM

nrc

06-30-06, 05:33 PM

why should the lead driver have to alter his line at all?

There's a generally accepted concept in racing that when someone is along side of you, you should give them room to race if possible. Once someone is as far along side as Tracy was on a straight, there's really no excuse for not allowing them space in a place like Cleveland.

The notion that Tracy "stuck his car in" is just silly. Seabass was off the road, lost momentum and anyone in Tracy's position would have done the exact same thing. The notion that three wide is somehow unsafe on the straights at Cleveland is just laughable.

Insomniac

06-30-06, 05:47 PM

you're right something rubbed off on Seb's tires, the launching that way can happen w/ some solid contact and a difference in rotational velocity of the wheels, but as for the wing, the front tires extend a good deal past the wing, the majority of the tire actually, whether it was sidewall or tire surface, I have no solid evidence from the images, but the solid wing evidence in no way even remotely precludes one tire riding up on the other.

from nrc's images, to me, looks like they bump dead on, PT gets the worst of it and slows down further, then he rides Seb's tire from behind, but, again, all i've seen are these images & youtube & the images & video are sketchy to begin with... I don't know...

My best guess is Bruno was ahead of both, not by much but ahead. PT and SB were wheel to wheel. PT was in between them and he pretty much was at their will. PT and SB touch, he goes up, Bruno squeezes in as well, PT turns sideways and takes out Bruno's wing, gets on top of SB who gets sideways. PT leaves some rubber on SB's helmet and somehow lands with a car still able to run. I'm glad SB is okay and PT wasn't in an IRL chassis or it would've been flying.

RE: intact wing

I guess if you're turning and your wheel is away from the wing you could get the front of your wheel to hit the rear or someone else's, but if you're going straight, I don't see any way the wing is still attached to the nose cone.

Insomniac

06-30-06, 05:49 PM

why should the lead driver have to alter his line at all?

Who was leading? ;) I'd say it was Bruno, PT then SB since it was an inside turn.

Insomniac

06-30-06, 05:50 PM

Like cameraman said, to stay in the race. It's pretty stupid to think, "If I stay on my line, I'll crash, but at least that bastard won't get around me."

Logically, this makes perfect sense. I think it's pretty much been proven all logic is thrown out the window on lap 1.

Insomniac

06-30-06, 05:53 PM

Tracy was the one in position to see that the N/H cars were closing up that hole and that they possibly may not have seen each other doing that. Being the most experienced driver in the field he should have backed off and gone for it during the 96 other laps of the race.

Yes, PT was in between two cars that both had plenty of room on the other side. How stupid of him to expect that they might not put the squeeze on. He should just let all 17 cars get through T1 since he knows there will be an incident and spend the other 96 laps trying to pass. Wouldn't want anyone to actually race and try to win or anything. :rolleyes: