That was crasharific [Archive]

mueber

06-26-06, 07:21 AM

Sean O'Gorman

06-26-06, 07:24 AM

Races without incidents tend to be parades. Aside from the first turn incident I enjoyed the race and I think the fans in the stands liked it too.

Of course, between ticket, parking, and food, I only paid about $60 so it could've been a snoozer and I wouldn't have lost much.

Napoleon

06-26-06, 08:01 AM

Aside from the first turn incident I enjoyed the race and I think the fans in the stands liked it too.

Actually the 1st turn incident is what made the rest of the race interesting. It created somewhat of an inverted field and left you wondering if AJ and Paul could come back from it (not to mention Bruno).

jonovision_man

06-26-06, 08:11 AM

KLang

06-26-06, 09:19 AM

Watching on TV I found it to be an exciting and entertaining race.

NismoZ

06-26-06, 10:05 AM

Yeah, I'm always entertained when one or more of the top guys are removed from competition before turn 2. Which leads in the "disgusting starts" stats, Portland or Cleveland?

FCYTravis

06-26-06, 10:11 AM

Too many stupid yellows (8!) especially for a track that wide-open and flat. But other than that, it was a good race with a lot of intrigue and storylines playing out. :cool:

KLang

06-26-06, 10:16 AM

Four of the yellows were for stalls. Onboard starters next year will take care of that. :thumbup:

NismoZ

06-26-06, 12:15 PM

Was very impressed by safety crews who were able to pull-start some lazy spins with only a local yellow. They were humpin'! :thumbup: Gotta love a track that doesn't need gravel traps. Now, if it was just billiard table smooth in the transitions! :)

NismoZ

06-26-06, 12:30 PM

Quote from Sebastian Bourdais: "... but when PT starts 5th there is no safe place to be at the front of the grid." :) " My head was his shock absorber." Glad he could help out, no doubt! Just wondering, how important is side vision in a CC today with full coverage helmets and HANS and so forth? Could the head be more protected, similar to the guys in NHRA? Or at least a roll hoop that curls over the helmet? Food for thought, I think.

coolhand

06-26-06, 12:36 PM

There were alot of lame spin outs and crashes. Half of them involved PT. :thumdown:

devilmaster

06-26-06, 12:52 PM

The lap 1 incident was a complete racing deal imho. If you get through T1 ok, its a drag race to turn 3. You had 3 cars side by side by side trying to see who would get there first.

I wouldn't expect PT to back off, nor would I expect Bruno or Seabass to back off. They were probably all on the button, and all pushing to get to T3 first.

None of them gave any room for the other - and therefore the crash happened.

The incident with Pastorelli was all Nicky's fault. He tried to divebomb way way late to pass. When they touched he still wasn't side by side with Tracy.

Now if they are to be believed for the last incident - saying that his suspension broke going into 8, there is some evidence to believe that - (wilson, zwolsman). If it didn't break, that was PT's only major blunder, and it put him out.

Insomniac

06-26-06, 01:18 PM

It was nice to see people racing and passing!

cameraman

06-26-06, 01:22 PM

The lap 1 incident was a complete racing deal imho.

So three long time veterans not backing down in the second corner of lap 1 and taking each other out is now a "racing deal" as opposed to just plain abject stupidity?

rabbit

06-26-06, 01:32 PM

So three long time veterans not backing down in the second corner of lap 1 and taking each other out is now a "racing deal" as opposed to just plain abject stupidity?
I would rather see three hard chargers take each other out on the first lap then watch a bunch of pussies drive around for two hours saying, "After you." "No, after you." "I insist, after you."

devilmaster

06-26-06, 01:42 PM

So three long time veterans not backing down in the second corner of lap 1 and taking each other out is now a "racing deal" as opposed to just plain abject stupidity?

Would it have been peachy-keen happy nice if they all had given each other room and they all make it through turn 3? Sure. But they're also racing for position. Did they know at the time that racing that close would take them all out? No. Hindsight is 20/20.

Its easy to look at it afterwards and say 'yer a bunch of idiots for not giving more room to each other, or backing off'. But at the time, they're racing with each other. I'm sure they have all won races because they didn't back down. And I'm sure they have all lost races because they didn't back down.

I thought that what racing was about. Pushing man and machine to the limit, and sometimes over the limit. It'd be a pretty boring sport if they didn't.

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 02:07 PM

The gap wasn't there, and once again Tracy goes and ruins races because he tries to win on the first lap. :thumdown:

cameraman

06-26-06, 02:12 PM

patski

06-26-06, 02:14 PM

The gap wasn't there, and once again Tracy goes and ruins races because he tries to win on the first lap. :thumdown:
Right on, and ruined the remainer of the race for this viewer.

KLang

06-26-06, 02:36 PM

Is there a camera angle from that incident floating around that wasn't shown on TV? What I remember seeing did not show the contact.

NismoZ

06-26-06, 03:05 PM

Something to be said for FORESIGHT also, dm. With PT it's almost always hindsight. As for claiming an "after you wussie race" would be the result of restraint being shown on lap 1, that is absurd. Look how well 3 of the guys involved did charging back DURING the race. Though some CC circuits almost contradict the old adage I still believe a race can't be won on the first lap but it can certainly be lost. The only greater story than AJ winning his 2nd consecutive race under his strange circumstances is if PT was able to hold it together and win after leaping Bourdais. He certainly had a shot! I'd have been mortified! :D

NismoZ

06-26-06, 03:19 PM

As far as a camera angle, there was one very long view that showed Bruno pinching left to set up a better run to 3 but I cant believe he even knew PT was trying to thread that needle. The whole thing could have been avoided if the guy Tracy ran into the dirt at the exit of one had held his line (if he was able) and they could have had their own incident behind the scene of the upcoming mugging! Who was that? See, he showed good sense, he drove off the road to get out of PT's way! Oh, well...I don't think there will be a repeat of that nonsense next time. One possible solution would be to take Bourdais' statement to heart and allow PT to start from row one, regardless of time. The "Tracy Penalty."

ChampCar#3

06-26-06, 03:43 PM

Now if they are to be believed for the last incident - saying that his suspension broke going into 8, there is some evidence to believe that - (wilson, zwolsman). If it didn't break, that was PT's only major blunder, and it put him out.

I think it was mechanical, the first thing PT did after getting out of the car was go to the back of the car and checked-out the rear of the car.

ChampCar#3

06-26-06, 03:45 PM

grungex

06-26-06, 03:51 PM

The gap wasn't there, and once again Tracy goes and ruins races because he tries to win on the first lap. :thumdown:
What a crock. You could make the exact same comment about Seabass or Bruno, and be equally right. Or, wrong. There was no video good enough to see what actually happened, but somehow you think you've got all the answers.

Riddle me this, since you evidently know more than we do -- Why was Seabass travelling at 90 degrees to the racecourse when Paul launched over him?

nrc

06-26-06, 03:57 PM

Diving into a place your car won't fit on lap one is stupidity not racing. It is stupid when Mario does it and it is stupid when PT does it. Nobody has ever won a race by crashing out in lap 1. They have school busses running on figure eight tracks for that kind of crap.

I didn't see it developing as Tracy stuffing his car in. Seabass went wide. It looked like PT was already along side Bruno and then Seabass made it a sandwich. My impression was that Seabass was trying to crowd Tracy unaware that he was already being crowded by Junky.

grungex

06-26-06, 03:58 PM

That doesn't fit the agenda, though...

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 03:59 PM

What a crock. You could make the exact same comment about Seabass or Bruno, and be equally right. Or, wrong. There was no video good enough to see what actually happened, but somehow you think you've got all the answers.

Riddle me this, since you evidently know more than we do -- Why was Seabass travelling at 90 degrees to the racecourse when Paul launched over him?The N/H drivers were just follwing their line while Tracy once again divebombed for a gap that was optimistic at best and was rapidly closing by the time he even began his move.

Bourdais was spun around because he got punted by that overrated jackass. :thumdown:

It's never Paul Tracy's fault. :gomer:

grungex

06-26-06, 04:01 PM

That's your unsubstantiated opinion. And PT is frequently wrong. There is no evidence of that this time.

grungex

06-26-06, 04:02 PM

PS, It's nice to see you resort to insults instead of simply answering a logical question. Commafan my ass.

Warlock!

06-26-06, 04:04 PM

rabbit

06-26-06, 04:06 PM

The N/H drivers were just follwing their line while Tracy once again divebombed for a gap that was optimistic at best and was rapidly closing by the time he even began his move.

Bourdais was spun around because he got punted by that overrated jackass. :thumdown:

It's never Paul Tracy's fault.

:gomer:Bzzztt. Wrong answer. Tracy was far from "divebombing." They were three-wide coming out of Turn 1. I am far from a Tracy fan, but that crash cannot be pinned entirely on him. All three drivers could have done something to prevent it. It was just a racing deal.

cameraman

06-26-06, 04:10 PM

Yeah it does. Numerous veterans collided and took themselves out of the race. I don't give a damn whose fault it is or isn't, collectively they are driving like idiots.

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 04:14 PM

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/content/photos/2006/By800/20060625P_0030.jpg

Photographic evidence says they weren't 3-wide. Bourdais was clearly ahead and was on his way back onto the racing line well before Tracy made his move. If Tracyw as truely side-by-side with the N/H cars then he wouldn't have hit both of them in the rear.

KLang

06-26-06, 04:18 PM

I didn't see it developing as Tracy stuffing his car in. Seabass went wide. It looked like PT was already along side Bruno and then Seabass made it a sandwich. My impression was that Seabass was trying to crowd Tracy unaware that he was already being crowded by Junky.

Yep, just watched it again a few times on RD. PT was next to Bruno going through turn 1. Ranger made it three wide. Bruno drifted left which ended up putting Ranger and almost PT in the dirt. PT and Bruno caught up to SB with SB on PT's left. No video of what happens next.

grungex

06-26-06, 04:20 PM

Photographic evidence says they weren't 3-wide. Bourdais was clearly ahead and was on his way back onto the racing line well before Tracy made his move. If Tracyw as truely side-by-side with the N/H cars then he wouldn't have hit both of them in the rear.
You didn't answer my question -- why was Seabass 90 degrees to the course?

grungex

06-26-06, 04:21 PM

PT was next to Bruno going through turn 1. Ranger made it three wide. Bruno drifted left which ended up putting Ranger and almost PT in the dirt. PT and Bruno caught up to SB with SB on PT's left. No video of what happens next.
If PT was almost in the dirt, and SB was to his left, wouldn't that suggest that SB must be nearly off the track?

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 04:23 PM

You didn't answer my question -- why was Seabass 90 degrees to the course?Already did. He was punted from behind by Tracy.

KLang

06-26-06, 04:23 PM

If PT was almost in the dirt, and SB was to his left, wouldn't that suggest that SB must be nearly off the track?

SB was in front of PT and Bruno. The picture above shows that. Don't know if SB went off as well but he must have slowed up a little for some reason for PT and Bruno, still side by side, to have caught up.

grungex

06-26-06, 04:24 PM

Already did. He was punted from behind by Tracy.
You are making a completely unsubstantiated assumption, based on personal animus.

KLang

06-26-06, 04:25 PM

Already did. He was punted from behind by Tracy.

That's BS. Tag's in-car camera clearly showed them three wide after Ranger went off and before Tag had to get out of Ranger's way.

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 04:28 PM

grungex

06-26-06, 04:33 PM

You don't even know that to be a fact. You can't just make stuff up to support your theories.

I could say SB turned in front of PT. It may have actually happened, but my saying so isn't evidence. :rolleyes:

KLang

06-26-06, 04:33 PM

Fact remains that it was Tracy's front wheels that made contact with the rear wheels of the two N/H cars.

Fact? There is no video evidence to support that.

Dirty Sanchez

06-26-06, 04:34 PM

Fact remains that it was Tracy's front wheels that made contact with the rear wheels of the two N/H cars. If he was truely side-by-side with both then it would have been their front wheels making contact.^ding

tracy's fault, no doubt. he put himself in a position that ultimately caused the accident. he wasn't alongside bourdais. he's gotta conceed the corner in that situation. i've seen much more blatant take-outs by pt before though.

nrc

06-26-06, 04:38 PM

If PT was almost in the dirt, and SB was to his left, wouldn't that suggest that SB must be nearly off the track?

Seabass was off the track, and in spite of his super-frog powers he was unable to maintain racing speed as he got back on. Which is how Tracy and Junky caught him on the inside and probably why he put the squeeze on to avoid losing any more spots.

grungex

06-26-06, 04:38 PM

I think it's extremely telling that both Bruno and Seabass are being pretty quiet on this.

grungex

06-26-06, 04:39 PM

Seabass was off the track, and in spite of his super-frog powers he was unable to maintain racing speed as he got back on. Which is how Tracy and Junky caught him on the inside and probably why he put the squeeze on to avoid losing any more spots.
Which would also explain his high-speed trajectory towards the SIDE of the racetrack.

Dirty Sanchez

06-26-06, 04:40 PM

I think it's extremely telling that both Bruno and Seabass are being pretty quiet on this.I have read several quotes from sebastian and bruno. I heard bruno say that he was hit from behind by tracy during the podium presentation. bourdais' quotes came awhile later as he had to make a trip to the hospital.

:gomer:

cameraman

06-26-06, 04:45 PM

Like I said, collectively they are driving like idiots.

Chief

06-26-06, 05:01 PM

Fact? There is no video evidence to support that.

Seabass has a doughnut on the right sidepod, bruno is missing left sidepod bodywork and PT rode Bourdais' helmet....

I'd say Junky forced PT left (that was Junky's wing flying up in the air...) and his LF wheel touched and climbed SB, turning Seabass sideways, launching PT up and over SB's car. Bruno skated away with his minimal damage to the pits....

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 05:02 PM

Which would also explain his high-speed trajectory towards the SIDE of the racetrack.Once again:

Bourdais was turned sideways when Tracy's front hit his rear.

Bourdais' car didn't speed up until after Tracy's car was starting to push against his helmet and knocking him out.

Whether you want to believe the truth it's up to you.

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 05:03 PM

I have read several quotes from sebastian and bruno. I heard bruno say that he was hit from behind by tracy during the podium presentation. bourdais' quotes came awhile later as he had to make a trip to the hospital.

:gomer:But it doesn't count if he didn't want to hear it! :cry:

:gomer:

grungex

06-26-06, 05:12 PM

Oh so now Tracy was behind Bruno, too? You guys really need to work on getting all of your stories straight. GMAB.

Opposite Lock

06-26-06, 05:19 PM

I heard bruno say that he was hit from behind by tracy during the podium presentation.

Wow. PT must have been extra mad - I mean I've seen him hit people on the track plenty of times, but I've never seen him hit anyone during the podium presentation.
:gomer:

Napoleon

06-26-06, 05:23 PM

Fact remains that it was Tracy's front wheels that made contact with the rear wheels of the two N/H cars. If he was truely side-by-side with both then it would have been their front wheels making contact.

He really looked to me to have nearly drawn along side of the two N/H cars. It looked to me that PT rear wheel lauched from BJ rear into his wing and jerked PT left into SB which then caused SB to turn right, which then happen to be under the now airborn PT.

In any event it is irrelevant. The track is wide enough there to go 3 wide easy. Its a "corner" in name only like turn 2 at Road America. So there was no reason for PT not to go around them there. As long as they didn't squeeze him he would have made it. Its not like he tried this at the kink at Road America, so the whole concept of having to be "along side" at the corner is irrelevant.

Which would also explain his high-speed trajectory towards the SIDE of the racetrack.

Actually I think that was caused by something you can not pick up from the TV coverage, and I have yet to see anyone who was at the race make note of. I was watching SB and it was a significant amount of time (2, 3, 4 seconds?) after getting hit before he lifted from the throttle. When his car went into the infield it was doing donuts from the throttle being wide open. At the time I figured it was just an over aggressive effort to get back on the track before getting stuck in the very wet grass. But after reading that SB says he momentarily passed out I wonder what really caused him to keep his foot in it so long after it was not a real good idea to be standing on it.

grungex

06-26-06, 05:25 PM

Once again:

Bourdais was turned sideways when Tracy's front hit his rear.

Bourdais' car didn't speed up until after Tracy's car was starting to push against his helmet and knocking him out.

Whether you want to believe the truth it's up to you.
The picture you posted seems to show that SB was already two wheels off, which is a far more logical explanation of why PT and Bruno caught up to him and why he went shooting off at right angles to the traffic flow. But don't let real evidence stop you from blaming your favorite villain, we all know Seabass and Junky can do no wrong.

rabbit

06-26-06, 05:31 PM

After a little time with Race Director, I offer the following summary:

15:40 - Green! Green! Green!
15:54 - SB drops all four wheels into the grass and slows significantly.
15:56 - BT and BJ take advantage off the SB off and pull alongside as they head for turn2.
15:57 - SB/PT/BJ enter turn 2 three-wide.
15:58 - on the far left of the screen, PT is pinched down by SB. His left front wheel is off the ground, but the RF remains down. The RF comes off the ground after contact with BJ.
15:59 - PT's RF lifts off the ground, but BJ's rear wing is still attached.
16:33 - SB is sideways with PT on top. PT's front wing is completely intact, proving he could not have hit anyone from behind.
16:36 - PT's nose hits the ground and breaks.
16:46 - SB's car sits in the infield with a big black donut in the middle of the sidepod.

Additionally, I have first-hand evidence. I stood right beside Bruno's car during victory ceremonies. There was significant damage to the sidepod/fluglehorn area, but none to the suspension, once again indicating a side hit (from being pinched down) and not a rear hit.

All of the evidence supports nrc's assertion that SB triggered the crash. Once again 'cork, you're way off base.

grungex

06-26-06, 05:37 PM

Yep, I just watched it again on RD. The video clearly supports my suggestion that the photo Corkski posted is Seabass going fully two wheels off, slowing him to the point that PT and Junky caught up to him. It is also clear that SB is pinching PT exiting T2, Bruno directly alongside.

Gnam

06-26-06, 05:48 PM

But after reading that SB says he momentarily passed out I wonder what really caused him to keep his foot in it so long after it was not a real good idea to be standing on it.
They way Seabass describes slowly fading out of conscienceness sounds more like the result of oxygen deprivation (like a choke hold) rather than a concussion. Maybe he confused the accelerator and the brake pedals as he was blacking out. Also, his foot might have been jammed against the pedal during the ride and then become tangled.

As for the crash analysis, if PT hit both Seabass' and Junky's rear tires, how come only Seabass spun out?

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 05:56 PM

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/content/photos/2006/By800/20060625P_0062.jpg

Here is Bruno's car, you can't really see much damage beyond the rear end of the sidepod. It's already been established that Tracy launched off Bourdais' rear wheel so he definitely wasn't completely side-by-side among those two.

grungex

06-26-06, 06:04 PM

Where was this established? Because you said so?

Looking at the video it almost looks like SB turned right in front of him, but the quality is too poor to tell for sure. The tire mark on SB's sidepod is rectangular, not round like a normal side-by-side contact would cause.

coolhand

06-26-06, 06:08 PM

It was PT's fault, He and bruno were side by side gaining on the accelerating Bourdais. There was no room and Tracy should of backed off, Bourdais had no obligation to drive with consideration for the idiot behind him. Bourdais took a natural right turning line but half of Tracy's car was there, Tracy locked wheels with both NHR cars and almost killed SB. The video is pretty conclusive.

If It was not for Tracy driving like an Idiot all weekend I would give him more benefit of the doubt. But he was a loose cannon out there on a Dan Clarke scale.

rabbit

06-26-06, 06:16 PM

Here is Bruno's car, you can't really see much damage beyond the rear end of the sidepod. It's already been established that Tracy launched off Bourdais' rear wheel so he definitely wasn't completely side-by-side among those two.Bull ****. I was a lot closer and had a lot better angle than that photo. The black mark on the top of the sidepod is actually the edge of a bigger hole in the top flat part of the sidepod. And it has not been established that PT launched off anyone's rear wheel. In fact, the replay clearly debunks this notion.

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 06:18 PM

Bull ****. I was a lot closer and had a lot better angle than that photo. The black mark on the top of the sidepod is actually the edge of a bigger hole in the top flat part of the sidepod. And it has not been established that PT launched off anyone's rear wheel. In fact, the replay clearly debunks this notion.Yeah Tracy trashed all his Lolas so he had to drive a Dallara backbreaking POS crapwagon. That thing must have flew on its own. :laugh:

rabbit

06-26-06, 06:25 PM

Keep in mind, I was ready to linch PT yesterday. But after studying the replay, I'm convinced it was a racing incident caused by three guys all unwilling to give an inch. Unlike some people around here, I am able to look at and accept facts.

grungex

06-26-06, 06:26 PM

It was PT's fault, He and bruno were side by side gaining on the accelerating Bourdais. There was no room and Tracy should of backed off, Bourdais had no obligation to drive with consideration for the idiot behind him. Bourdais took a natural right turning line but half of Tracy's car was there, Tracy locked wheels with both NHR cars and almost killed SB. The video is pretty conclusive.
That's right, I forgot that Newman-Haas cars get priority over all others. Silly me. Silly Paul, thinking he's actually entitled to be part of the race, too. :rolleyes:

Upon further review, it appears that Bruno was running wide, and SB was pinching in. All three cars were side by side with daylight between them, and there's no way Paul's car suddenly gained three feet of width.

coolhand

06-26-06, 06:35 PM

Upon further review, it appears that Bruno was running wide, and SB was pinching in. All three cars were side by side with daylight between them, and there's no way Paul's car suddenly gained three feet of width.

No it was Paul driving where there was no room, He was the furthest behind of the 3 and should have been the one to reconize it. SB should of been the last to reconize it. Paul was putting wheels wrong all weekend.

Dr. Corkski

06-26-06, 06:35 PM

Watch the replay dumbass. PT's left front lifted off the ground when it came in contact with SB's sidepod. That forced him into BJ's sidepod, which lifted the RF off the ground.That sounds even more improbable than Tracy driving a Dallara. He must be running some special suspension pieces to have them all survive getting squeezed hard enuogh to get completely launched.

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/content/photos/2006/By800/20060625P_0054.jpg

No tiremarks on the sidepod from this angle either.

And you call me a dumbass for not trying to redefine the laws of physics. :rofl:

coolhand

06-26-06, 06:40 PM

Tracy also tried to dive inside in turn one but then cut back in taking a cone with him. He later exited turn 1 wide driving Ranger into the grass making him spin out and losing a wing. He capped off the first 10 seconds of the race by getting on top of Bourdais. That was 3 dumb moves on his part.

grungex

06-26-06, 06:43 PM

No tiremarks on the sidepod from this angle either.

And you call me a dumbass for not trying to redefine the laws of physics. :rofl:
Why would you expect marks on Bruno's right sidepod if Paul was on his left? Your arguments gain brilliance by the hour. :rofl:

grungex

06-26-06, 06:49 PM

He later exited turn 1 wide driving Ranger into the grass making him spin out and losing a wing.
Righhhht. Of course, Bruno cutting inside Paul in turn 1 and pushing him wide had nothing to do with it, or Ranger taking the real far line outside and trying to pass Paul on the exit of the turn. You guys are priceless.

nrc

06-26-06, 06:50 PM

No tiremarks on the sidepod from this angle either.
The damage was pretty evident on TV when they interviewed Junky after the race. From the NH press release:

During the caution Junqueira pitted on Lap 3 to replace his rear wing that had been knocked off during the contact but had to continue with damage to his right sidepod that would hinder the aerodynamic properties of his race car.
So how did Tracy hit him from behind at the beginning of the straight and damage his right sidepod? Hyperspeed?

And you call me a dumbass for not trying to redefine the laws of physics. :rofl:That post has been deleted. Leave it alone.

High Sided

06-26-06, 06:56 PM

In my mind, after a near perfect weekend of open wheel racing, the amateurs took over at 2:30 and put on a crashfest. You'd think the management would do something....maybe show the "professionals" tapes of the Atlantics races.

in my mind that was a total joke of a race, kinda like american open wheel racing :confused:

Andrew Longman

06-26-06, 07:08 PM

Haven't seen replays on RD yet so I'll stay out of the who's to blame deal for now,

But back to the original question... I spent a ton to haul myself and kids there and had a great time. It was a weird race, but memorable in many ways. We'll be back next year.

As for the incident itself, look for Ranger's involvement too. He busted way left just before the green and was very close to jumping it. As a result he passed a ton of cars, maybe eight, at the start. But that gave him a very late apex and he was trying to force his way back in on the exit of T1. As I said I did not see RD yet, but at the track that was among the craziest of crazy move all day.

Also, note Servia muscling his way in to 2 and putting AJ way off line and causing his spin. Aggressive move or idiot move?

I will add this... The CC race was the only race of the weekend without a L1T1 incident. In all the other races you could hear the collective sigh of relief from the crowd when they all cleared T1. I the CC race there was the gasp and then murmur of concern about SB.

And listening to PTs scanner his front and rear were both out of alignment for most of the race and eventually the understeer bit him

TKGAngel

06-26-06, 07:09 PM

How do you who paid good money on transportation, lodging, and tickets feel about your investment in the race at Cleveland?

In my mind, after a near perfect weekend of open wheel racing, the amateurs took over at 2:30 and put on a crashfest. You'd think the management would do something....maybe show the "professionals" tapes of the Atlantics races.

I honestly thought it was a great race. There was a lot of passing. Philippe did well (overcoming the indignity of almost not being allowed into victory lane to celebrate his brother's 2nd place Atlantics finish) until he ran out of gas. Clarke had 3rd locked up, until him and Mario had a meeting of the minds. Power did a fantastic job of recovering from his spin and dip through the front stretch mud bog.

Would it have been a better race if Sebastien and PT hadn't crashed out early? Probably. Did I feel like I got my money's worth? Yes. Two great Atlantics races, 1 great FF2000 race and a fan forum with Unser/Sullivan/Rahal/Tracy made for an entertaining weekend.

And in other news, Mr and Mrs Seabass are expecting a little SeaBass. :)

Elmo T

06-26-06, 07:57 PM

And listening to PTs scanner his front and rear were both out of alignment for most of the race and eventually the understeer bit him

Sounded the same here. I was surprised the car made it as long as it did.

Katherine made a few mistakes, but she kept getting words of encourage from the team. She sounded very down and at one point said something along the lines of "I've lost the will to live...". The team was pushing her hard.

I think I heard the most cheerleading and words of encouragement from PT's crew followed by Katherine, a close second.

FTG

06-26-06, 08:08 PM

Anyone who says there wasn't room for three wide is on crack. They could've been five wide through there. I watched it on Tivo a dozen times. (there's one long shot of the contact.) PT has good run on them, pulls more or less on side. SB has ten yards of runway on his left if he wanted to move over. He doesn't. PT and Seabass hold their line. Bruno ran a very wierd line, wider than anyone through one, and is someone back on the inside through two. Bruno slides out, because he's running the "flattest" line and doesn't back off.

Bruno quailfied furthest back, and ran the worst line, so if anyone was reckless, it was Junky.

But he finished second. The other two were out. That's racing.

TRANSAM

06-26-06, 08:15 PM

There's more theories about that crash than about Kennedy being shot.

I think PT's car came from the grassy knoll,ricocheted off BJ and struck SB in the head.

The mystery is that If you listened to the tape slowly there is the sound of more than one car bouncing off SB, also there is no way PT's car could have continued after going airborn like that,there must have been a third Indeck car.

L1P1

06-26-06, 08:39 PM

I've kinda' been avoiding this thread because of the subject and post-count, but it's actually one of the better threads in awhile. So I have to make it longer...

To the original post....Welcome to Cleveland. I seem to remember some years back when it was raining an PT was spinning off and coming back through the field all day long. Cleveland is a place where aggression is rewarded and failure often is not a big deal. The track beckons you back on to try again.

Regarding PT and SB in the aftermath of T1, I'm certainly not a race car driver, and no expert in any way, but it seems to me that PT had a run on SB and BJ. But I wouldn't think it ever be wise to come from behind and drive between two drivers who are looking only at each other.

NismoZ

06-26-06, 10:32 PM

Yes. Lack of wisdom was the cause. If PT really did sign a 5 yr. contract to continue in CC it's the wisest thing he's done in his entire career. I'm still trying to identify how he's "matured" since Penske let him go all those years ago and wonder if his overly bold moves on track simply hide declining skills? I'm in a group that thinks he peaked some time ago. Fast, aggressive, entertaining, loyal...all of those things, including controversial. But not wise. Glad he's in ChampCar, but he pisses me off more than I can admire his skill or decision making.

devilmaster

06-27-06, 02:18 AM

Jeez, I go to CoPa to see a Tiger game and miss all the fun.

I am not a PT lover by any means. He used to drive for Penske and that means he's evil, period. :D

But I'll always call them as I see them. There are a few diehard PT haters on here - to the point where he can do no right, regardless if he did wrong.

We as a forum should never let things like facts get in the way of our hating. Its good to see people like Cork leading the way for us other poor unfortunate souls.

Cork, go get a hooker. Next time I see ya at the track, I'll pay you what it cost ya. A man with so much hate should try and feel some love once in a while.

Dr. Corkski

06-27-06, 03:28 AM

So some dude with no substance to add to the debate decides to throw in a half-assed personal attack after his buddy's got deleted. So much hate. :laugh:

You expect "love" outta hookers? Hate to break it to you but I think yours has been lying to you. :gomer:

To get this back on track: at best Tracy's front wheels were at about where the rear end of the N/H sidepods were at the point of impact. This would suggest that by the time he committed to stick his wheels in between there was no way he could expect to get through it unless he unreasonably expected Bourdais to change his line just because the great Paul Tracy demands there to be a gap for him. :thumdown:

Insomniac

06-27-06, 08:49 AM

PS, It's nice to see you resort to insults instead of simply answering a logical question. Commafan my ass.

It's not even worth it. PT is always at fault with the Doctor.

grungex

06-27-06, 09:01 AM

To get this back on track: at best Tracy's front wheels were at about where the rear end of the N/H sidepods were at the point of impact.
Another flat-out lie. Why do you even bother? He was dead even with SB before the impact, as the video from behind clearly shows.

Insomniac

06-27-06, 09:18 AM

They way Seabass describes slowly fading out of conscienceness sounds more like the result of oxygen deprivation (like a choke hold) rather than a concussion. Maybe he confused the accelerator and the brake pedals as he was blacking out. Also, his foot might have been jammed against the pedal during the ride and then become tangled.

As for the crash analysis, if PT hit both Seabass' and Junky's rear tires, how come only Seabass spun out?

He also said he was getting pushed down into the car. I can't imagine there is much room to bend your leg in there.

Dr. Corkski

06-27-06, 09:52 AM

Another flat-out lie. Why do you even bother? He was dead even with SB before the impact, as the video from behind clearly shows.Once again photographic evidence begs to differ:

http://motorsport.com/photos/champcar/2006/cle/champcar-2006-cle-mj-0048.jpg

Dead even. :rofl:

Insomniac

06-27-06, 10:00 AM

KLang

06-27-06, 10:00 AM

Unless you can produce a photo of the actual contact, your photos prove nothing except the lengths you will go to try to make out PT to be the bad guy. :rolleyes:

Dirty Sanchez

06-27-06, 10:03 AM

Allmendinger/Wirth would be sweet.

Andrew Longman

06-27-06, 10:04 AM

Once again photographic evidence begs to differ:

http://motorsport.com/photos/champcar/2006/cle/champcar-2006-cle-mj-0048.jpg

Dead even. :rofl:

Just curious. Was that donut caused by PTs left front or left rear?

I have yet to see any video or read any quote about what specifically launched PT onto SB.

The video does suggest a jailbreak at the start with lots of agressive driving by lots of drivers, most notable Ranger.

While the video to me is inconclusive on the actual contact it does show PT along side SB in the straight exiting T1. After that they are lost in the frame.

One could agrue, if we insist on conjecture, that if PT was between BJ and SB that he was the only one of the three that could not move over. And lifting is likely to be a bad idea given the field coming up behind.

Seems like a racing deal

Insomniac

06-27-06, 10:06 AM

Once again photographic evidence begs to differ:

http://motorsport.com/photos/champcar/2006/cle/champcar-2006-cle-mj-0048.jpg

Dead even. :rofl:

Isn't that black mark from when PT was going over SB (when PT was sideways across SB's car). The vetical one looks like a break in the panel, not rubber. Also, the red sidewalls on the outside of both of SB's right tires are gone.

Insomniac

06-27-06, 10:08 AM

Just curious. Was that donut caused by PTs left front or left rear

When did Bridgestoine start making square tires? ;)

nrc

06-27-06, 10:46 AM

Once again photographic evidence begs to differ:

Dead even. :rofl:

If that were the front tire, as you're implying, how did Tracy end up on top of Seabass with the center of his car on SB's head? With both cars running essentially the same speed if that were the front tire PT would have ended up on the rear cowling instead of the cockpit.

Look at the video. The head on shot where they go out of camera immediately after contact is conclusive. Tracy was dead even with Seabass. Seabass has 60 yards of track to his left yet he squeezes PT enough that they make contact. The contact from that angle is conclusively front wheel to front wheel.

PT's front end gets airborne and the back starts to come around, probably contacting Junky's sidepod in the process. PT's car pivots around in the air and ends up on top of SB - dead center on the cockpit in spit of the deceleration that comes with getting the car in the air at almost 45 degrees from vertical.

That's what's on the video. We all know you hate PT. Fine, PT has made more than his share of bonehead moves over the years. But if you want to talk about this event how about addressing what is actually on the video instead of posting pictures with creative interpretations of what they represent.

rabbit

06-27-06, 10:53 AM

If that were the front tire, as you're implying, how did Tracy end up on top of Seabass with the center of his car on SB's head? With both cars running essentially the same speed if that were the front tire PT would have ended up on the rear cowling instead of the cockpit.

Look at the video. The head on shot where they go out of camera immediately after contact is conclusive. Tracy was dead even with Seabass. Seabass has 60 yards of track to his left yet he squeezes PT enough that they make contact. The contact from that angle is conclusively front wheel to front wheel.

PT's front end gets airborne and the back starts to come around, probably contacting Junky's sidepod in the process. PT's car pivots around in the air and ends up on top of SB - dead center on the cockpit in spit of the deceleration that comes with getting the car in the air at almost 45 degrees from vertical.

That's what's on the video. We all know you hate PT. Fine, PT has made more than his share of bonehead moves over the years. But if you want to talk about this event how about addressing what is actually on the video instead of posting pictures with creative interpretations of what they represent.Bingo.