Tech Question

[Andrew Longman]

I was filling my car today, wishing it would run on cheaper, lower octane gas and was wondering about the methanol used in CC.

a) does it have more/less energy in it than gasoline?

b) do they add chemicals (e.g., lead) to give it a higher octane for high compression racing engines?

c) I guess in short, besides being water soluable, how is it different from gas?

Just curious on a slow Wednesday morning

[Tifosi24]

I was filling my car today, wishing it would run on cheaper, lower octane gas and was wondering about the methanol used in CC.

a) does it have more/less energy in it than gasoline?

b) do they add chemicals (e.g., lead) to give it a higher octane for high compression racing engines?

c) I guess in short, besides being water soluable, how is it different from gas?

Just curious on a slow Wednesday morning

I will try and channel what I remember from out lectures about fuel in automotive class. Methanol is similar to Ethanol in that it has a lower BTU than gasoline (don't quote me on the correctness of the BTU direction), so it requires more energy to burn translating into lower fuel economy (this part I know is correct). I can't comment for sure on the additive because I don't remember, but again I think it is like Ethanol in that the natural alcohols in the mixture help create a higher octane. It is different from gasoline in that it takes more energy to burn, it contains alcohol, and I believe it is made from straight carbon more than crude oil. Conceivably you can create menthol or ethanol products from anything that contains carbon, but I think the main difference between the is that menthol is derived more from oil byproducts than living organisms. As always I accept full responsibility for any bull I might be flinging on accident :cool: .

[Gangrel]

Methanol is also much more corrosive than gasoline, which is why CCWS engines need to be "pickled" (run on gasoline until all of the methanol in the engine is displaced) after each race weekend before transport. Wear and tear are quite high when running methanol.

[Easy]

An engine will create more power running on gasoline than it will on methanol.

[TKGAngel]

Another question:

if methanol burns clear, why can't they add in an additive that will allow the fire to be visible? Would it disrupt the combustion and ruin the engine?


Methanol is also much more corrosive than gasoline, which is why CCWS engines need to be "pickled" (run on gasoline until all of the methanol in the engine is displaced) after each race weekend before transport. Wear and tear are quite high when running methanol.

I did not know that. Is that something the Ford techs would handle, or are the individual teams responsible for doing that?

[grungex]

The teams do it at the end of each day.

[Gangrel]

The teams do it at the end of each day.

Every day. That's right. Not sure why I was thinking it was only at the end of the weekend...duh!

[Tifosi24]

Another question:

if methanol burns clear, why can't they add in an additive that will allow the fire to be visible? Would it disrupt the combustion and ruin the engine?



I remember back in the day Parker Johnstone or Jon Beekhuis talking about that very question and I think they said that the engineers came up with a solution to make the fire visible, but this in turn made the exhaust poisonous.

[cameraman]

1 pound of methanol => 9800 BTU
1 pound gasoline => 19800 BTU

The octane rating of methanol is ~150. You can squeeze the hell out of it. So it is great fuel if you want to make a high compression engine. (Unless it is 109 or 120 or 160 or 140. This kind of **** pisses me off. 100% methanol has an octane rating, it is a number, it does not change, why five different sources give five wildly different numbers for that value I can not say. :flame: )

Only problem is you need to use more volume so you mpg generally sucks.

The other thing is methanol is a pain to work with.

It will draw water out of the air, you have to keep it tightly sealed to keep it from becoming diluted.

It is evilly toxic. A janitor in the lab here choose drinking methanol as a suicide method. It succeeded but he spent a full day in writhing in convulsions before he finally died. It is not efficiently cleared by any biological process and it will accumulate in you. The crew members don't seem to be getting hurt by it, something that has always surprised me.

[TKGAngel]

I remember back in the day Parker Johnstone or Jon Beekhuis talking about that very question and I think they said that the engineers came up with a solution to make the fire visible, but this in turn made the exhaust poisonous.

Huh. Would the same thing be true for ethanol? I could've sworn I heard Jerry Punch say during an IRL broadcast that the league was adding a chemical to the ethanol to make the fire visible.

[Gangrel]

Huh. Would the same thing be true for ethanol? I could've sworn I heard Jerry Punch say during an IRL broadcast that the league was adding a chemical to the ethanol to make the fire visible.

I have heard this before, but the league has been adding something to the Methanol long before they started their switch to Ethanol. Their fires do not burn invisible like Champ Car does, even when they were using essentially the same fuel.

Then again, knowing the league, maybe these fires were toxic. The Earl don't let a little mortal danger get in the way of the appearance of innovation. :gomer:

[pchall]

I have heard this before, but the league has been adding something to the Methanol long before they started their switch to Ethanol. Their fires do not burn invisible like Champ Car does, even when they were using essentially the same fuel.

Then again, knowing the league, maybe these fires were toxic. The Earl don't let a little mortal danger get in the way of the appearance of innovation. :gomer:


IRL fires usually have color because they involve oil from gearbox or engine igniting from damage during the hit. Their fuel fires in the pit follies are still basically invisible.

[Elmo T]

It is evilly toxic.

Toxicity information from the Material Safety Data Sheet:

Poison - Class "B." HARMFULOR FATAL IF SWALLOWED OR ABSORBED THROUGH THE SKIN. Ingestion of 1 to 4 ounces can cause irreversible injury to the nervous system, blindness or death. It cannot be made non-poisonous. Contact with liquid causes eye and respiratory system irritation and may cause skin irritation. Vapor inhalation or liquid penetration of the skin can cause CNS depression. Prolonged or repeated high inhalation exposure may cause optic nerve damage, pulmonary and/or cerebral edema, liver and/or kidney damage, coma, respiratory failure and death.

[Ankf00]

Methanol is very volatile, even a small simple spill poses health dangers b/c it evaporates so readily and is easily absorbed through your skin. This is a huge drawback in terms of refueling options with methanol fuel cells.

[Gangrel]

IRL fires usually have color because they involve oil from gearbox or engine igniting from damage during the hit. Their fuel fires in the pit follies are still basically invisible.

Very plausable, but I could have sworn about 3 or 4 years ago I read an article about an additive they were using to make the fuel burn yellow.

Maybe that additive, by indirect means, was engine oil. :gomer:

[Andrew Longman]

Methanol is very volatile, even a small simple spill poses health dangers b/c it evaporates so readily and is easily absorbed through your skin. This is a huge drawback in terms of refueling options with methanol fuel cells.

So why does CC use methonal? I always thought it was a safety issue because it could be quickly extinguished with water.

Given that 1 oz can cause death, it can be inhaled or absorbed through the skin, and there is not antidote, I'd like to see the risk analysis comparing the likelihood of those risks with the likelihood of serious injury due to a runaway gasoline fire.

[Insomniac]

Reading all this begs the question...why aren't they using gasoline? :confused:

[cameraman]

Because gasoline filled fuel tanks can expode like bombs in an accident.

It was the Dave McDonald/Eddie Sachs fireball in the early 60s that caused USAC to switch.

Methanol is nasty stuff but open wheel racing has been using it for 40 or so years and crew members are not getting sick.

Fires can be put out instantly with a bucket of water, can't do that with gas.

Methanol spills are far less dangerous to the environment than gas spills.

[Elmo T]

I'll leave the technical stuff to the gearheads.

Gasoline is everywhere and, with the exception of NJ, we can pump it ourselves. We don't have people lighting themselves off.

That said, if there was a strong chance of a fire, I'd rather the methanol. Water is everywhere, it is easily stored, cheap, and easy to apply to a fire. From strictly a firefighting standpoint, I'd go with the methanol.

[Dr. Corkski]

So why does CC use methonal? I always thought it was a safety issue because it could be quickly extinguished with water.

Given that 1 oz can cause death, it can be inhaled or absorbed through the skin, and there is not antidote, I'd like to see the risk analysis comparing the likelihood of those risks with the likelihood of serious injury due to a runaway gasoline fire.You can treat methanol poisoning with ethanol since both are broken down by the same enzyme. When methanol is broken down in the body the resulting products are actually what's toxic, and ethanol competition would lower the amount of toxic metabolic products generated by methanol metabolism.

Based on that my guess is Ank has been getting exposed to methanol on a daily basis. :gomer:

[Easy]

You can treat methanol poisoning with ethanol since both are broken down by the same enzyme. When methanol is broken down in the body the resulting products are actually what's toxic, and ethanol competition would lower the amount of toxic metabolic products generated by methanol metabolism.



Someone's been paying attention in class.

[Gangrel]

Someone's been paying attention in class.

Either that, or watching "House".... :D

[Andrew Longman]

You can treat methanol poisoning with ethanol since both are broken down by the same enzyme. When methanol is broken down in the body the resulting products are actually what's toxic, and ethanol competition would lower the amount of toxic metabolic products generated by methanol metabolism.

Based on that my guess is Ank has been getting exposed to methanol on a daily basis. :gomer:

The things I can learn by just asking. :)

I was reading the wrong meaning into the hazmat page that said it cannot be made non-poisonous

[dando]

Either that, or watching "House".... :D
Nah, more like Ask Dr. Science (http://www.drscience.com/).

:gomer: :)

[gjc2]

In all my years of being a fan of motor racing I don't remember ever hearing of any driver or crew member being made sick from contact with methanol.

[Ankf00]

Based on that my guess is Ank has been getting exposed to methanol on a daily basis. :gomer:

Show up at the County ER, free ethanol for the rest of the night. :thumbup:

[Wabbit]

You can treat methanol poisoning with ethanol since both are broken down by the same enzyme. When methanol is broken down in the body the resulting products are actually what's toxic, and ethanol competition would lower the amount of toxic metabolic products generated by methanol metabolism.


Sounds like somebody stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :rofl:

[Steve99]

Very plausable, but I could have sworn about 3 or 4 years ago I read an article about an additive they were using to make the fuel burn yellow.
SpeedNews showed the latest IRL pit follies last weekend, and they were throwing buckets of water even though there was no visible flame.

[Badger]

An engine will create more power running on gasoline than it will on methanol.

That is not true. A gasoline engine will get better mileage, but methanol will give equal or possibly even a slight more hp if tuned to run it. The higher octane allows higher engine compression.

[L1P1]

In all my years of being a fan of motor racing I don't remember ever hearing of any driver or crew member being made sick from contact with methanol.

I'm sure it's not as bad as dihydrogenoxide. In it's gaseous form it will burn the skin from your body. In liquid form, it can cause burns, or anything from asphixiation to hypothermia. The solid form can crush your head. But it was in wide use during the 19th century and into the early 20th century for running trains and cars.

[Elmo T]

I'm sure it's not as bad as dihydrogenoxide. In it's gaseous form it will burn the skin from your body. In liquid form, it can cause burns, or anything from asphixiation to hypothermia. The solid form can crush your head. But it was in wide use during the 19th century and into the early 20th century for running trains and cars.

There is a material safety data sheet available if necessary:

Dihydrogen Monoxide (http://www.hsegroup.com/hse/text/water.htm)

:laugh:

[L1P1]

There is a material safety data sheet available if necessary:

Dihydrogen Monoxide (http://www.hsegroup.com/hse/text/water.htm)

:laugh:

Damn, that chemical nomenclature crap was the reason for me not getting my engineering degree.

But it's not that bad as you can see here http://www.dhmo.org/truth/Dihydrogen-Monoxide.html

[grungex]

That's some funny stuff!

[FanofMario]

Interesting thread....It begs me to ask then what F1 runs? What kind of fuel cocktail does that entail???

[grungex]

Gasoline. AKA petrol.

F1 (http://www.formula1.com/insight/technicalinfo/11/646.html)

[indyfan31]

That is not true. A gasoline engine will get better mileage, but methanol will give equal or possibly even a slight more hp if tuned to run it. The higher octane allows higher engine compression.
But if you put a blower on the gas engine it'll develop even more horsepower; once you change one of the engines the comparison is no longer valid.
If all else remains the same, gasoline will develop more power than methanol.

[L1P1]

Interesting thread....It begs me to ask then what F1 runs? What kind of fuel cocktail does that entail???

I don't know if it's true anymore, but their used to be competition in fuels in F1 along with everything else. Nigel Mansell wrote in his book about a time when he felt that Shell (I think) wasn't working hard enough on it's fuel.

[grungex]

This was true at one time, but the fuel currently being used isn't much higher in octane than what you can buy at the pump.

[Insomniac]

I don't know if it's true anymore, but their used to be competition in fuels in F1 along with everything else. Nigel Mansell wrote in his book about a time when he felt that Shell (I think) wasn't working hard enough on it's fuel.

I think it was getting out of hand and now there are rules to regulate fuel in F1. I guess they were adding all kinds of crazy and bad for the environment additives.

I believe now F1 takes a sample at the beginning of the season and runs some real expensive test on half of it to check it out. They then use the rest to compare against the fuel the rest of the season to make sure it's the same.