2006 Edition Tour de France thread

[Dr. Corkski]

You would think Champ Car fans would know better than to trust a guy named Floyd from Pennsylvania. :gomer: :gomer: :gomer:

[racer2c]

You would think Champ Car fans would know better than to trust a guy named Floyd from Pennsylvania. :gomer: :gomer: :gomer:
:rofl:

[dando]

Flandis was a precursor.... :( :shakehead :saywhat:

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2541883

-Kevin

[oddlycalm]

Buried in a very long article about the procedures and legalities in doping rulings was the following comment Velo News legal article (http://velonews.com/news/fea/10679.0.html)
Under UCI Rules, samples are supposed to be anonymous-the laboratory is not supposed to know which sample belongs to which rider. It was clear that the French lab that did the testing knew it was Landis' samples just as they knew last year that the B sample they were allegedly holding belonged to Armstrong. They have a history of leaking sample results to french sporting tabloid L'Equipe. If that lab knows who the samples belong to they are also in a perfect position to adulterate them or simply announce false positives.

I don't have an opinion on whether Landis used testosterone, but I'm 100% convinced that French lab has zero credibility.

oc

[RichK]

I think the French are trying to bookend this Tour with scary doping accusations to try and rid themselves of doping.

I don't think Floyd did it.

[Insomniac]

I think like most, I'd like to believe he's innocent. ESPN had a great article about drug testing and how easily people can cast a shadow of doubt and we all eat it up.

However, I think he's guilty. Him and his people have changed their story to fit the test results and I think they finally were nailed without doubt when they claimed that he has a natural high testosterone and it was naturally produced. Then I read in the NYT they did carbon isotope testing and the testosterone wasn't even natural. It was synthetic.

Athletes have convinced us they don't cheat, and when there is a positive test, it's always a false positive or someone was giving them the stuff and they had no idea. These people are at the top levels of their respective sports and they have a responsibility to ensure that they are not taking any type of performance enhancing drugs.

I find it awfully hard to believe that these tests are so prone to be wrong. Especially at the percentage that the people who get caught claim.

I also think if Landis finished second and Pereiro won and was caught cheating, not many of us would believe he didn't cheat.

In the end, kudos to the athletes for making us really want to believe you aren't a cheater.

[TrueBrit]

If the testosterone is synthetic then it's all over....

[oddlycalm]

If the testosterone is synthetic then it's all over.... Agreed, except the lab in question has shown that it has an agenda and that it actually knows which samples belong to which riders. A lab that has shown bias and has sole access to the samples is not the gold standard IMO.

As far as Floyd's attempts to explain the positive, what would any of us say if we were innocent of doping yet tagged with a positive test result?

I can't be convinced 100% either way thanks to the challenged ethics at the lab, but a pattern is emerging and I won't be surprised if someone at the lab is arrested down the line.

oc

[TrueBrit]

Agreed, except the lab in question has shown that it has an agenda and that it actually knows which samples belong to which riders. A lab that has shown bias and has sole access to the samples is not the gold standard IMO.

As far as Floyd's attempts to explain the positive, what would any of us say if we were innocent of doping yet tagged with a positive test result?

I can't be convinced 100% either way thanks to the challenged ethics at the lab, but a pattern is emerging and I won't be surprised if someone at the lab is arrested down the line.

oc

Even if they know which sample belongs to whom, how do you get around the synthetic part?

That, for me, seals the deal. I was more than willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but when it turns out it was synthetic (ie not made by his own body) that pretty much becomes the end game, no? Or do you think they spiked his sample?

[RacinM3]

You know, I'm no scientist, so I can't really comment. But it seems to me that if you were tested and found positive one day, and then tested later (within days) and found negative, that something stinks. Landis said on Leno the other night that he was tested twice AFTER this test and the results were negative. How does that happen? Can this stuff disappear from your body that quickly?

Also, the accepted use of the stuff is over a prescribed period. It seems to be that common knowledge is a one day treatment is not effective, so why bother risking it?

How the lab can know the names of the samples is beyond my reasonable understanding. How can that be objective? If that's the case, you HAVE to view the test results as tainted. After all, it's not a big strech to think that somewhere in France, there's one guy who doesn't want to see an American win their beloved event for the 8th time in a row.

A final thought.....with all the crap the fans are flinging on these riders during any given stage, who's to say there's not something in one of those bottles that could be absorbed into the skin?

[Tifosi24]

I have sat silent on this subject trying to take in all the information that has come across. The fact that he tested negative for all the other tests of the tour still is a big red flag to me. As it has been said, testostorne is completely worthless for a single time effect, and we know how those in cycling now how to use drugs and supplements, so in my eye it doesn't seem possible that someone in the cycling community would use testostorne just one stage. It is also illogical because any rider who goes nuts on a given stage has to be fairly certain that they will be tested. On the topic of synthetic testostorne, I have read certain things about the test and it is over my head, but that leads me to my next point.

The lab. The fact that the Tour uses this lab is irresponsible and the World Doping federations should demand that the Tour find a new lab. The place is in bed with L'Equipe and this is common knowledge. How are we to know that someone didn't plant synthetic testostorne in the urine sample, because it appears almost certain that they knew who's urine it was, which is also a terrible breach of protocol. If one look at this case from a judical standpoint, there is no way that you could convict Floyd Landis of these charges. The positive test is damning, but the procedural blunders and irresponsible nature of the lab definately raises reasonable doubt.

[Insomniac]

If the testosterone is synthetic then it's all over....

This is where I read it: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/01/sports/othersports/01landis.html

[Insomniac]

You know, I'm no scientist, so I can't really comment. But it seems to me that if you were tested and found positive one day, and then tested later (within days) and found negative, that something stinks. Landis said on Leno the other night that he was tested twice AFTER this test and the results were negative. How does that happen? Can this stuff disappear from your body that quickly?

Also, the accepted use of the stuff is over a prescribed period. It seems to be that common knowledge is a one day treatment is not effective, so why bother risking it?

How the lab can know the names of the samples is beyond my reasonable understanding. How can that be objective? If that's the case, you HAVE to view the test results as tainted. After all, it's not a big strech to think that somewhere in France, there's one guy who doesn't want to see an American win their beloved event for the 8th time in a row.

A final thought.....with all the crap the fans are flinging on these riders during any given stage, who's to say there's not something in one of those bottles that could be absorbed into the skin?

That's exactly what I was saying about the ESPN article. There's always an excuse. He drank the night before. He has a naturally high T/E ratio. The lab has a vendetta against US riders...

Here's a theory. He took something that lowered his epitestosterone levels instead of elevating his testestosterone levels. Or maybe he was doping the whole time but had a way to keep the levels in check and someone on his team made a mistake between his drug test before 17 and it was corrected after stage 17. Those seem just as likely to me.

Also, regardless of how he got it (even if a fan threw it on him) it was still a performance enhancing drug. It would suck if that was the case, but the fact of the matter is he got an artificial boost and should still be DQ'd.

[Insomniac]

If one look at this case from a judical standpoint, there is no way that you could convict Floyd Landis of these charges. The positive test is damning, but the procedural blunders and irresponsible nature of the lab definately raises reasonable doubt.

So now what, we need to apply the same rules that O.J. had to doping? Reasonable doubt is pretty easy to get, just look at the posts in this thread.

[Fio1]

Here is something you all should read: http://www.eurosport.com/cycling/tour-de-france/2006/sport_sto942608.shtml

[emjaya]

As it has been said, testostorne is completely worthless for a single time effect,

Not quite true, read this (http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,20094160-10389,00.html) and it is explained how and why.Landis looks to have been careless and was caught out.
However, I don't trust that lab, though.That result is definitely suspicious as well.

I don't know what to think. :( :confused: :shakehead

[RacinM3]

OK, so WTF?

Are they going to strip him of the title, or not? I would have thought that by now, with the two samples testing positive, they at least would have taken it from him by now.

I hate the news media. If it's not fresh and in your face, it's not worth following.

[oddlycalm]

It's not going to get resolved in anything close to a hurry due to the legalities (http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/10679.0.html)

Meanwhile Floyds father in law has committed suicide just to make sure the bummer is complete for Amber. David Witt suicide (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/more/08/16/bc.cyc.landis.relatived.ap/index.html)

oc

[RacinM3]

Man, what a drag about Witt.

THanks for the links.

[emjaya]

FLOYD Landis, who could become the first Tour de France champion to be stripped of the title over a doping charge, will release an online presentation outlining his defence, USA Today has reported.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,20555503-23218,00.html

[RichK]

Floyd is also chatting on internet forums:

dailypelotonforums.com (http://www.dailypelotonforums.com/main/index.php?showtopic=1458)

[RichK]

His defense PowerPoint slides are up on his website:

http://www.floydlandis.com/blog/2006/10/12/188/

Pretty conclusive evidence that he's innocent, and that the French lab is full of ****.

[oddlycalm]

Pretty conclusive evidence that he's innocent, and that the French lab is full of ****. I would probably discount Floyd's defense except that this is the same French lab that violated protocol and leaked bogus information about Armstrong to the French sporting rag. They have made it clear they have an axe to grind when it comes to US riders winning the Tour, and the organizer's decision to continue using the lab is on them.

Posting the actual documents online is a smart thing to do as well.

oc

[RichK]

The most interesting thing to me was that he PASSED the "synthetic testosterone" test as per the lab's standards. Yet, they leaked the opposite result to the press.

:shakehead

[oddlycalm]

The most interesting thing to me was that he PASSED the "synthetic testosterone" test as per the lab's standards. Yet, they leaked the opposite result to the press.

:shakehead Exactly why it's important to have the real documents in the hands of the press. I'm certainly not in favor of doping, but I don't think Dick Pound and his ilk are good for sports and this French lab is obviously way off the map ethically.

oc

[RacinM3]

I'm hoping this witch hunt ends soon. There are FAR too many irregularities to consider this to be a legitimate case against Landis. Am I biased? Yes. However, this lab's work is just too reminiscent of the Keystone Cops to consider it reliable.

[coolhand]

The most interesting thing to me was that he PASSED the "synthetic testosterone" test as per the lab's standards. Yet, they leaked the opposite result to the press.

:shakehead

leaking is a big problem now adays with crap like this. The Media will run with anything, especially with the French's anti-american rider campaign for the past 8 years.

[Ankf00]

the first few posts of this linked thread spell out a few very glaring lab mistakes & tampering

http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=othersports&Number=4546159&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=

[coolhand]

does anyone think that they will back off the allegations? it would not be "the french way" if they admit they are wrong.

[oddlycalm]

does anyone think that they will back off the allegations? it would not be "the french way" if they admit they are wrong. No, it's going to get resolved in the legal system, not by anyone backing down IMO. It'll be a minor miracle if the issue is decided before the next Tour begins. In the end the Tour has massively devalued it's own race by contracting a lab with a clear agenda as well as a known relationship with a sporting tabloid to do the testing. This is the kind of decision making that can kill the golden goose.

oc