When did English become a second language?

[CART License]

This came in the US mail today...small print in ENGLISH........
http://www.mcmc.la/mexico/p&g1.jpg
http://www.mcmc.la/mexico/p&g2.jpg

[chop456]

When you moved to Southern California?

[Edit] And who gave all those cities those Spanish names anyway, and when? :D

[Dave99]

And they've replaced Barbie & Ken with Esmarelda and Jorje!! :saywhat:

Hey, at least the product icons don't say "Head y Shoulders" or "Crest-O". :laugh:

[Sean O'Gorman]

[Edit] And who gave all those cities those Spanish names anyway, and when? :D

Clearly it was the Mexicans, and in 2006. :gomer:

[TKGAngel]

P&G probably pulled market research indicating that your area has a significantly higher percentage of Hispanics, and probably decided that a Spanish mailer would go over better in that neighborhood.

Sears and JCPenney now have Spanish subtitles under all their signs.

[Andrew Longman]

The mayor of Bogata, NJ is sueing McDonalds because they placed a Spanish language billboard in his city. Now the Attorney General is investigating whether he his guity of some sort of hate crime or bias.

Interesting times

[KLang]

There is a Target store in South Miami that is the same way. The department signs were in Spanish with an English translation much smaller below. The first time my wife and I went in there it was like 'toto we're not in Kansas anymore'. :saywhat:

[JLMannin]

The Unites States has never had an official language. If Mexicans were white, none of this would be an issue.

[nrc]

The Unites States has never had an official language. If Mexicans were white, none of this would be an issue.

The fact that I think it's best for the country if immigrants assimilate to the culture doesn't make me a racist. It's an opinion that stands whether we're talking about Eastern Europeans, Latin Americans, or any other non-english speaking immigrant group. It is a completely color blind position.

[racer2c]

The fact that I think it's best for the country if immigrants assimilate to the culture doesn't make me a racist. It's an opinion that stands whether we're talking about Eastern Europeans, Latin Americans, or any other non-english speaking immigrant group. It is a completely color blind position.

I agree and nicely put. :thumbup:

[Lizzerd]

The fact that I think it's best for the country if immigrants assimilate to the culture doesn't make me a racist. It's an opinion that stands whether we're talking about Eastern Europeans, Latin Americans, or any other non-english speaking immigrant group. It is a completely color blind position.

I agree 100%, Boss.

My grandmother was born on the boat on the way to Ellis Island from Italy in 1904. Her mother and older siblings didn't know a lick of English, but she grew up in an English speaking house because her mother and siblings learned the language before she could speak. (I'm told that great-grandpa came a few months earlier and died shortly after the rest of them arrived.) She only remembered small phrases of Italian for as long as I knew her. The Poles, Germans, whoever... did the same thing at the peak of immigration to this country. I think it is only right that Hispanic or any other immigrants, legal or illegal, do the same if they want to live in this country.

[KLang]

The Unites States has never had an official language. If Mexicans were white, none of this would be an issue.

What nrc said. :thumbup:

Also, this is one of the requirements to become a US citizen:

'an ability to read, write, and speak English'

[race chica]

The fact that I think it's best for the country if immigrants assimilate to the culture doesn't make me a racist. It's an opinion that stands whether we're talking about Eastern Europeans, Latin Americans, or any other non-english speaking immigrant group. It is a completely color blind position.

Ya hit the mark on that one. Good Call :thumbup:

[trauma1]

ordering a big mac is an adventure at most places, ask for a soda and sit back and watch the games begin

[Andrew Longman]

The fact that I think it's best for the country if immigrants assimilate to the culture doesn't make me a racist. It's an opinion that stands whether we're talking about Eastern Europeans, Latin Americans, or any other non-english speaking immigrant group. It is a completely color blind position.

If anyone wants to look at the consequenses of not assimilating (from immigration or otherwise) just look at the sects killing each other in Iraq and Africa today. Look at the Balkins. Look at hundreds of years of violence in Europe, or the problems cause right now because Muslims have set up separate societies in most European countries. There is a ton to be said for pluralism but unless it is organized around something common it inevitably devolves into civil war.

[TKGAngel]

Not knowing English is also problematic in the medical fields. Doctors either have to use family members to translate conditions or wait for a hospital translator to arrive. Sometimes it even results in 12-year-olds telling family members that they have a life-threatening illness.


ask for a soda and sit back and watch the games begin

You mean pop, right? ;)

[ChampcarShark]

Not knowing English is also problematic in the medical fields. Doctors either have to use family members to translate conditions or wait for a hospital translator to arrive. Sometimes it even results in 12-year-olds telling family members that they have a life-threatening illness.



You mean pop, right? ;)

Una Gaseosa...

[Wabbit]

What nrc said. :thumbup:

Also, this is one of the requirements to become a US citizen:

'an ability to read, write, and speak English'

And enter the country legally.

[Ankf00]

You mean pop, right? ;)
no, means "a Coke" :p

[Spicoli]

no, means "a Coke" :p

SODA! :mad:

[Ankf00]

or the problems cause right now because Muslims have set up separate societies in most European countries. That has a hell of a lot more to do with racisim and lack of educational opportunities, among others, than it does lack of effort in assimilation. France's football team is derided by National Front Party's president, Le Pen, for "not being representative of France" ethnically/religiously. You have an Italian Senator making public statements bragging that "a team which fielded Lombards, Campanians, Venetians and Calabrians won against a team which sacrificed its identity for results by fielding blacks, Muslims and communists."

Assimiliation is the problem, but it's not for lack of effort. Lack of citizenship opportunities, schooling, language lessons, etc. over the past 40 years pretty much drive you to stick with your own. Germany, France, Netherlands, etc. kept seeking guest workers who would come and toil. Denying them assimilation opportunities would help prevent them from growing roots in the country and drive them to return to their homes eventually. Unfortunately, guest worker programs usually never worked out like that and you have 8 million Muslims between Germany & France alone. Muslims who stuck to their own kind b/c they were 2nd class non-citizens.


UK >> rest of western Europe when it comes to handling these matters properly, imo.



As for the thread topic, english isn't the official language, although I believe all government matters should be held in english first and foremost, and immigrants should make active efforts to assimilate and contribute to society, if I have a private business and I'm advertising in an immigrant community, as a smart businessman I'm going to try to communicate to them in their first language. That's smart business.

[Ankf00]

SODA! :mad:
IT'S A COKE!!! :flame:

[pfc_m_drake]

Pop.

The definitive website on the topic:

http://www.popvssoda.com/

[Ankf00]

Pop.

The definitive website on the topic:

http://www.popvssoda.com/
so basically only the midwestern yokels call it pop, the cosmopolitan & urbane yuppies of the coastal metropolises call it soda, and the rednecks & hicks down south refer to it by it's proper name, "COKE" :p Who knew hicks could be so intelligent? :)

[Tifosi24]

Before we start, it is pop.

This debate makes me laugh, because it has been going on for as long as the US has existed. The nation has done pretty well without having to specify an offical language, because most immigrants know that to become truly successful they will need to have an understanding of English. Should government documents and affairs be conducted in English, yes, because it creates a unifying force. However, I think legislating that English be the offical language sends a somewhat predudical vibe to those who are new to the country or have limited speaking abilities.

My fear is that legislating an official language will have an effect on Hispanic culture, which is where much of this debate is pointed towards. Outwardly racist policies by the government, and our society during World War I killed many of the diverse and interesting cultural neighborhoods and regions the United States had during the period from 1865-1915. The Germans are a classic example of these events. As a whole they learned and used English in everyday society, but were very proud of their heritage and culture. The first 50 years of my college church's history and records are written in German, and in the cemetary where my grandparents are buried the majority of headstones before 1930 are engraved in German, instead of English, and the same is true for Norweigen or Swedish in many parts of Minnesota and Wisconsin.

In summary, I would like to see us work with the legislation that exists, because it would be terrible to see another loss of cultural diversity that we saw during World War I.

[TKGAngel]

Pop.

The definitive website on the topic:

http://www.popvssoda.com/

You know someone out there is probably writing a Masters Thesis on this pop v. soda debate.

Another one that I get funny looks at is "skippy cup." You know, the little plastic containers of ice cream that you get at the grocery store and they come 12 in a bag, usually eaten with the little wooden spoon thing?

[Tifosi24]

You know someone out there is probably writing a Masters Thesis on this pop v. soda debate.

Another one that I get funny looks at is "skippy cup." You know, the little plastic containers of ice cream that you get at the grocery store and they come 12 in a bag, usually eaten with the little wooden spoon thing?

Skippy Cup, now that is something I haven't heard before. If it is really little, I think it would be simply a cup of ice cream where I am from. Now, if it is slightly bigger it would be called a Frosty Malt.

[Dr. Corkski]

It's SODA dammit. :mad:

[nrc]

More evidence of Gomerdom in central Indiana:

http://www.popvssoda.com/countystats/total-county.gif

Now someone needs to do this graphic showing trends over time.

[G.]

In summary, I would like to see us work with the legislation that exists, because it would be terrible to see another loss of cultural diversity that we saw during World War I.But wasn't that lack of diversity what united us as a country? Doesn't a homogenous society remain strong while a diverse society eventually become divided (by definition).

I am asking, I am all for maintaining cultural identity and all, but the US wasn't the world power it is today until after WWI. Coincidence?

I'm jus' axin.

(it's pop, but I actually quit using the term and go with soda. Part of my elitist snob personality. )

[chop456]

So what if you want an orange soda in Texas, you ask for an orange Coke?

That's just plain stupid. :laugh:

[TKGAngel]

So what if you want an orange soda in Texas, you ask for an orange Coke?

That's just plain stupid. :laugh:

What about a Sprite? I want a Sprite Coke?

[G.]

So what if you want an orange soda in Texas, you ask for an orange Coke?

That's just plain stupid. :laugh:You ask for the rum and coke coke.

Just don't get the schweet tay.

[Ankf00]

What about a Sprite? I want a Sprite Coke?
That'd just be called a "Sprite." A soft drink in general would be "coke" however. I can understand how the yokels cannot fathom this simplicity. "I'd like a rum & coke pop please, also an orange pop, and a Sprite soda too please!"

So when someone xerox's something for you on a cannon or ricoh machine are they ricoh'ing it then? :gomer:

[cameraman]

The people who were just off the boat in the 1800's and early 1900's did not learn English any better than the folks just across the Rio Grande do today. Their children learned English just like the kids of the folks coming in today. It has always been the children of the immigrants who have learned the language. Anyone who thinks that the semi-educated (at best) Italian immigrants living in Manhatten in the 1890's all learned English as soon as they got off the boat is several steps beyond delusional.

Oh yeah, it is SODA

[cameraman]

So when someone xerox's something for you on a cannon or ricoh machine are they ricoh'ing it then? :gomer:

When you lease a Ricoh machine do you fill out an order for a Ricoh Xeroxer? :p

[Ankf00]

The people who were just off the boat in the 1800's and early 1900's did not learn English any better than the folks just across the Rio Grande do today. Their children learned English just like the kids of the folks coming in today. It has always been the children of the immigrants who have learned the language. Anyone who thinks that the semi-educated (at best) Italian immigrants living in Manhatten in the 1890's all learned English as soon as they got off the boat is several steps beyond delusional.


precisely :thumbup:

[Gnam]

It has always been the children of the immigrants who have learned the language.
Yes. Nothing is cooler than hearing an American accent (Southern, New York,
Boston, Vallery Girl) coming out of someone that looks fresh off the boat.

It's Coke.

[TrueBrit]

What nrc said. :thumbup:

Also, this is one of the requirements to become a US citizen:

'an ability to read, write, and speak English'

Which always chaps my hide when you get the ballots printed an 187 different languages....If you have to be able to read, write, and speak English in order to become a citizen (and hence be able to vote) why on earth would the ballots be printed in anything other than English? Makes absolutely no sense to me....

I have no problem with multi-cultural diversity, and celebrating one's ethnic heritage, but bi-lingual ANYTHING just makes no sense...

[Andrew Longman]

That has a hell of a lot more to do with racisim and lack of educational opportunities, among others, than it does lack of effort in assimilation.

You are correctly pointing out the other lane in the two way street. Greek, Poles, Irish, Italians, etc. upon arrival in the US were subject to many of the same racist comments you quote from France and Italy. Today so are many Latin, Asian and Muslim immigrants. That forces them into their own communities (or in the case of the Irish in NYC, to just take over the government). But even without the racism, if there is no effort to adopt some minimal level of the norms and ideals of the majority, then you wind up with the situation found throughout Europe where they are growing their own native born Islamic terrorist bent on destroying the western society they live in.


As for the thread topic, english isn't the official language, although I believe all government matters should be held in english first and foremost, and immigrants should make active efforts to assimilate and contribute to society, if I have a private business and I'm advertising in an immigrant community, as a smart businessman I'm going to try to communicate to them in their first language. That's smart business.

Agreed. Bidness is bidness. :)

Lastly. Coke/Pop/Soda is no good for you. No one should drink it.

[KLang]

Which always chaps my hide when you get the ballots printed an 187 different languages....If you have to be able to read, write, and speak English in order to become a citizen (and hence be able to vote) why on earth would the ballots be printed in anything other than English? Makes absolutely no sense to me....


I agree with TrueBrit. :eek:

Congress just passed up an opportunity to fix it too. Bunch a wimps.

I grew up with POP.

[Tifosi24]

But wasn't that lack of diversity what united us as a country? Doesn't a homogenous society remain strong while a diverse society eventually become divided (by definition).

I am asking, I am all for maintaining cultural identity and all, but the US wasn't the world power it is today until after WWI. Coincidence?

I'm jus' axin.

(it's pop, but I actually quit using the term and go with soda. Part of my elitist snob personality. )

I actually thought that World War I was the cause of us becoming a superpower, until I saw a couple comprehensive documentaries on the war from the UK. From a production standpoint, the US was, IIRC, on top of the heap, even ahead of Germany. The US was very much the China of the late 19th and early 20th Century and was a rising player on the international scene. Also, the US is the world power it is today because of World War I, and not because the country "became" more homogenous as a result of many policies during the same time frame. The only coincidence is that the country's of Europe decided to kill each other and destroy their infrastructure at the same time the United States was maturing greatly economically.

[Ankf00]

But even without the racism, if there is no effort to adopt some minimal level of the norms and ideals of the majority, then you wind up with the situation found throughout Europe where they are growing their own native born Islamic terrorist bent on destroying the western society they live in.


Germany, France, Holland, etc. didn't want these folks to assimilate. They wanted them to come, not learn the language, not go to school, not start families or birth children, but to clean toilets & such. They wanted guest workers w/ no strings attached. They wanted to remain mono-cultural societies. Instead they received people. They received a new resident immigrant population that overstayed visas, etc. with minimal ties to their host nations' culture & few opportunities through which to even attempt to assimilate.

The US is multi-cultural and offers plenty of opportunity for folks to integrate while still retaining their identities.

There is not much analogous between the two situations.

[Andrew Longman]

Germany, France, Holland, etc. didn't want these folks to assimilate. They wanted them to come, not learn the language, not go to school, not start families or birth children, but to clean toilets & such. They wanted guest workers w/ no strings attached. They wanted to remain mono-cultural societies. Instead they received people. They received a new resident immigrant population that overstayed visas, etc. with minimal ties to their host nations' culture & few opportunities through which to even attempt to assimilate.

The US is multi-cultural and offers plenty of opportunity for folks to integrate while still retaining their identities.

There is not much analogous between the two situations.

Yes, Yes, Yes. You make my point better than I can. Lack of assimilation, whatever the cause, creates problems.

Europeans, unable to create a standard of living that pays a living wage to clean toilets and park cars, and unwilling to reproduce in numbers to create a workforce sufficient to fund excessive social programs, they opened themselves to "guest workers" who you solve the problem then go away.

The US could be headed the same way, only in typically American fashion we are doing it with fewer rules, without clear intentions, and without a visible plan. We might get the same results however.

Or we might get something different. We all might become a little more Spanish and a little more Asian just as we all eat a little Chinese, Italian and Corned Beef and Cabbage now and then.

[rosawendel]

if you drink pop, does that mean you eat mom?
friggin cannibals.

[Wabbit]

Which always chaps my hide when you get the ballots printed an 187 different languages....If you have to be able to read, write, and speak English in order to become a citizen (and hence be able to vote) why on earth would the ballots be printed in anything other than English? Makes absolutely no sense to me....

I have no problem with multi-cultural diversity, and celebrating one's ethnic heritage, but bi-lingual ANYTHING just makes no sense...

Because the United States refuses to pass a law declaring that English is the official language. That, and by Executive Order (Clinton) all official government printing and forms must be available in any language requested.

[Gnam]

Can I get my ballot in ebonics? Or 1337 Sp34k?

[Ankf00]

Me want Engrish.

[rabbit]

I was on a walk here in NW Ohio with a girl from Kentucky once several years back. She was thirsty so when we saw a guy filling a Pepsi machine, we stopped. She asked him, "Can Ay git a Coke outta thayer?" He looked at her funny, looked at the machine, looked back at her and said, "Well, you can try." :rofl:

It's POP!

[Ankf00]

It's POP! yoker. :p

[racer2c]

so basically only the midwestern yokels call it pop, the cosmopolitan & urbane yuppies of the coastal metropolises call it soda, and the rednecks & hicks down south refer to it by it's proper name, "COKE" :p Who knew hicks could be so intelligent? :)

Except in North Carolina, home of Pepsi.

Personally, I prefer Dr.Pepper and hate ordering Mr. Pibbs (or Pibb Extra's or whatever it's called now) when they don't have the real thing.

[Ankf00]

Except in North Carolina, home of Pepsi.

Personally, I prefer Dr.Pepper and hate ordering Mr. Pibbs (or Pibb Extra's or whatever it's called now) when they don't have the real thing.

Dublin Dr. Pepper w/ gin-yoo-wine cane sugar from Imperial. Nothing better in the world :thumbup:

[emjaya]

er, Haven't the Spanish speaking people been in the America as long as or longer than English. :confused:

Would you feel the same if it was printed in a native American language?How do they feel about English?

Truebrit, perhaps in some things, like dealing with taxes or in voting, people to whom English is a second language prefer to have it in their own language so as not to be confused about the details.How many languages have you learned to read and write as an adult?

When this thread started I was going to post a smart-arsed comment about some of Anks posts not being in any language I could understand, but he has made some very good posts here. :thumbup:

No doubt though, if I go to the Football thread he will have reverted to speaking gibberish again. :gomer: :D


I always thought 'mericans called soft drinks soda-pop.I had to read a book at school by S.E. Hinton called the Outsiders, one of the characters in it was called Soda-pop.

It's not Xeroxing,it's photocopying.

[Cam]

Call it by it's bloody label! :rolleyes: :D
Coke, Pepsi... Just do it.

[Ankf00]

When this thread started I was going to post a smart-arsed comment about some of Anks posts not being in any language I could understand, but he has made some very good posts here. :thumbup:

No doubt though, if I go to the Football thread he will have reverted to speaking gibberish again. :gomer: :D


I always thought 'mericans called soft drinks soda-pop.I had to read a book at school by S.E. Hinton called the Outsiders, one of the characters in it was called Soda-pop.

It's not Xeroxing,it's photocopying.

ahhhhhhh go stick a 'roo up yer arse, bloody aussies... sheesh. :p :Totti-Penalty:

[JLMannin]

When I was a kid, it was Coke or Pop, mostly pop (Grew up near Chicago) Moved to Michigan - it was Soda. Moved to where Illinois, Iowa, amd Missouri meet - it was soda. Not sure what it is here in Indy. I hear all three, really.

In Peoria, Inninois, a dish of ice cream with chocolate syrup is pronounced SUN-duh. Everywhere else, it's SUN-day. A wiatress asked mne once if I wanted a sun-duh. I looked at my wife (girlfriend at the time) and asked what she was asking me - I did not have a clue.

[emjaya]

ahhhhhhh go stick a 'roo up yer arse, bloody aussies... sheesh. :p :Totti-Penalty:

:laugh:

Totti, Yeah, I've got something for him.http://ic3.deviantart.com/fs11/i/2006/195/0/4/_Zidane__by_Camikaze.gif

[Ankf00]

That's nice of you.



He has a Jules Rimet Trophy you know. But I don't think it's for you :gomer:



:p

[TKGAngel]

Except in North Carolina, home of Pepsi.

Personally, I prefer Dr.Pepper and hate ordering Mr. Pibbs (or Pibb Extra's or whatever it's called now) when they don't have the real thing.

I once had a waitress offer me Pepsi with maraschino cherry juice in it to make up for the fact that they had no Dr. Pepper. Blech.

[chop456]

I once had a waitress offer me Pepsi with maraschino cherry juice in it to make up for the fact that they had no Dr. Pepper. Blech.

3 fingers of Beam and you'd have something there.

[TrueBrit]

Truebrit, perhaps in some things, like dealing with taxes or in voting, people to whom English is a second language prefer to have it in their own language so as not to be confused about the details.How many languages have you learned to read and write as an adult?

Fair enough point I suppose, but if a requirement to become a citizen is to be able to read and understand English, why would voting ballots be printed in anything else?

How many languages? Three (four if you include the 'English' the colonists speak... ;) )

[racer2c]

Environmentally speaking, we could save a lot of trees and waste by not producing owner manuals with four languages in them. My Sony HDTV manual was 200 pages!!! The English section was only 50!!

[extramundane]

3 fingers of Beam and you'd have something there.

'specially if you hold the Pepsi and cherry juice.

[extramundane]

Personally, I prefer Dr.Pepper and hate ordering Mr. Pibbs (or Pibb Extra's or whatever it's called now) when they don't have the real thing.

"Mr. Pibb is a replica of Dr Pepper, but it's a BS replica, 'cuz dude didn't even get his degree."

[cameraman]

Environmentally speaking, we could save a lot of trees and waste by not producing owner manuals with four languages in them. My Sony HDTV manual was 200 pages!!! The English section was only 50!!Sony ships TVs to other places besides the USA.

[chop456]

'specially if you hold the Pepsi and cherry juice.

Well in that case I wouldn't use Beam. :D

[skaven]

On a boat here, we had an Italian family, a French family, a Slovenian couple, a Croatian pilot and my wife and me. Everyone spoke English from "all aboard" to "we swim here" to "everyone back on board, my anchor is not working."

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e170/andyjung/2a41266e.jpg