View Full Version : Tracy pulls a tracy/robby gordon....again!
Spicoli
08-14-06, 05:31 PM
Wow, beat up by a Doc Austin wanna-be and a guy with a fetish for overweight men. I'm deeply hurt.
Do not fear the Cork-tard. He is but an innerwes dweeeb. :gomer:
Dr. Corkski
08-14-06, 05:35 PM
Do not fear the Cork-tard. He is but an innerwes dweeeb. :gomer:I fart in your general direction. :gomer:
LOL I know you are upset about Pauls moves. But if you think he is fat I'd really hate to hear what you would call me if ya seen me. Also I noticed in both incidences the other driver did not take there helmet's off but Paul did.
Spicoli
08-14-06, 08:44 PM
LOL I know you are upset about Pauls moves. But if you think he is fat I'd really hate to hear what you would call me if ya seen me. Also I noticed in both incidences the other driver did not take there helmet's off but Paul did.
mommymushbrain?
Also I noticed in both incidences the other driver did not take there helmet's off but Paul did.That's just cause Paul doesn't have anything to protect. :gomer:
grungex
08-14-06, 08:55 PM
:D
Bourdais increases points lead by 1.
Jervis Tetch 1
08-14-06, 09:56 PM
Utterly incredible.
Opposite Lock
08-14-06, 10:47 PM
mommymushbrain?
oh man ,,,
:rofl:
Maybe Paul Tracy should start concentrating on getting the job done inside the car. I mean how many races has his new teammate won now, and when was the last time PT won a race?
BTW, this thread has turned into a real cluster f***. Kind of like Robby Gordon and Paul Tracy's driving would be at the Nordschleife in the rain. :laugh: :rolleyes:
Dr. Corkski
08-14-06, 11:02 PM
mommymushbrain?You are such a dick. :laugh: :thumbup:
Jayblues
08-15-06, 12:04 AM
LOL I know you are upset about Pauls moves. But if you think he is fat I'd really hate to hear what you would call me if ya seen me. Also I noticed in both incidences the other driver did not take there helmet's off but Paul did.
decide for your self
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b339/jayblues/Denver06014.jpg
IIknow Paul has a big body frame. But Paul has to lift weights etc..... Those big arm's I bet are not fat flab but big muscles. I'm not a Paul Tracy fan but I know when he was with Penkse the first time Paul got all fit and everything. But when he went to a lower team he quit working out because he was getting bigger.
But it's just like a couple women chose to go a different racing way. When they first was on the scene it was oh Ms. Fisher she so cute and same with Patrick esp Patrick. Everyone on the board was saying how fat and ugly. Then when you guys got mad at Patrick you started the same about her.
This is probably taking away from what this is for but it hits home every time comments are made (of course they probably don't care).
I know it's my personal problem not others. Sorry didn't mean to preach everyone is intitled to there opinion.
Lizzerd
08-15-06, 01:45 AM
I don't see how anybody could say that PT is "fat". He is one of the most fit, albeit large, drivers in ChampCar today.
Spicoli
08-15-06, 04:20 AM
PT is more normal sized than the rest of those panty-waste, girly-men. He just looksa big, cause everyone else is so small.
Insomniac
08-15-06, 08:43 AM
Maybe Paul Tracy should start concentrating on getting the job done inside the car. I mean how many races has his new teammate won now, and when was the last time PT won a race?
Lost in all this, what I found interesting was Paul saw how much better AJ was at braking at the RA test and he switched to left foot braking for the next race. Figuring how long he's been racing, that seems like a pretty big change.
grungex
08-15-06, 08:56 AM
Actually he's known it for quite a while. After San Jose the team was thinking about renting a track and a GA car so he could practice, the RA test was perfect timing to do it in a Champ Car.
jonovision_man
08-15-06, 08:57 AM
Lost in all this, what I found interesting was Paul saw how much better AJ was at braking at the RA test and he switched to left foot braking for the next race. Figuring how long he's been racing, that seems like a pretty big change.
Agreed, I was surprised by that too! Kind of speaks to how threatened he feels by AJ's pace IMO.
jono
Agreed, I was surprised by that too! Kind of speaks to how threatened he feels by AJ's pace IMO.
jono
I don't think he feels threatened. He is just trying to improve.
TrueBrit
08-15-06, 09:20 AM
I don't think he feels threatened. He is just trying to improve.
He obviously still hasn't quite figured out how to left-foot brake then.... :D :rofl:
Insomniac
08-15-06, 10:37 AM
I don't think he feels threatened. He is just trying to improve.
I agree. I think it was at San Jose he said he had a teammate (I presume just recent teammates) that was faster than him and he needed to work harder to catch up.
It has shown that maybe AJ was reaching the most potential he could have at RuSport and there was a fair amount of room to be faster at FCR which PT was not able to do. Of course, now I wonder how much better Justin Wilson could be?
Of course, now I wonder how much better Justin Wilson could be?
good point...
Wilson NHR, AJ FCR, 2007 :D
I agree. I think it was at San Jose he said he had a teammate (I presume just recent teammates) that was faster than him and he needed to work harder to catch up.
That is what I remember too. He commented that he hadn't had a faster teammate lately and they were studying the data to see how they could improve. Apparently left-foot braking is one of the things they are trying.
Insomniac
08-15-06, 11:58 AM
good point...
Wilson NHR, AJ FCR, 2007 :D
Hehe, I wonder what the difference is. Sometimes they mention the shock programs. How much aero development do NHR/FCR still do?
Does anyone know what they will be able to develop on the DP01 in 2007. I remember way back when they announced it, they wanted to slowly open up things to develop over its life.
Insomniac
08-15-06, 12:28 PM
Tracy also dismissed the idea that Champ Car might suspend him, even after being fined and put on probation for his tussle with Tagliani.
"I don't think we have enough cars on the grid to be suspending guys or sitting guys out of a race," he explained.
"Right now we're at 16 cars and we don't need to be at the race with 15. I see it as a racing incident, I see it as something that happens every weekend. If you watch the highlight reels, you'll find there's always a last lap incident that happens somewhere."
http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story/?ID=174216&hubname=auto_racing
I doubt they will sit him for a race, but it won't be for car count issues. Gerry can find a body to drive while PT is suspended. If they were going to use any reason, it would be sitting a Canadian for a Canadian race.
He also sent a message to Bourdais:
"I'm going to be in the mix in every race that comes up," Tracy said Monday. "If (Bourdais) wants to tango with me he'd better wear some steel-toed construction boots from Mark's Work Warehouse or he's going to have sore toes."
B3RACER1a
08-15-06, 08:18 PM
LOL. Tracy smack talking the guy that beats him pretty much every race. :rofl:
What an act. Talking trash about a guy who has more championships and almost as many race wins than you in about 1/4 the time span. :thumbup:
Spicoli
08-16-06, 05:48 AM
Bourdais cheats all the time though.
Tony George
08-16-06, 10:54 AM
Bourdais cheats all the time though.
Where did you hear that??? :rolleyes: :gomer:
BTW, I'm watching the replay of the race on Speed, and lost on all the bashers here is that PT pulled off the exact same move on Wilson on lap 42. The difference was prolly tire wear late in the race. YMMV.
-Kevin
Spicoli
08-16-06, 01:14 PM
Where did you hear that??? :rolleyes: :gomer:
Not tellin. :p
cameraman
08-16-06, 01:16 PM
Probably the same person who told him the merger was a done deal...
Insomniac
08-16-06, 03:32 PM
BTW, I'm watching the replay of the race on Speed, and lost on all the bashers here is that PT pulled off the exact same move on Wilson on lap 42. The difference was prolly tire wear late in the race. YMMV.
-Kevin
PT went around the outside? Or he went inside Wislon?
PT went around the outside? Or he went inside Wislon?
Inside, but Wilson was wider the SeaBass. SeaBass clearly chopped down earlier than Wilson. Same turn, same move by PT, tho.
-Kevin
grungex
08-16-06, 06:19 PM
There's a thread on CCF with a series of pics showing Nelson making the same move on Wilson, as well. Note the massive tire smoke...
--Linky-- (http://www.champcarfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37871)
cameraman
08-16-06, 06:24 PM
Also note that Nelson was in front of Wilson at that point, not behind him. :rolleyes:
grungex
08-16-06, 06:25 PM
The point is that the move Tracy made was not as wildly optimistic as most are intent on assuming. :rolleyes:
Chiphead_Dave
08-16-06, 06:32 PM
There's a thread on CCF with a series of pics showing Nelson making the same move on Wilson, as well. Note the massive tire smoke...
--Linky-- (http://www.champcarfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37871)
Nelson was more in the main groove than PT but it is close.
PT was more inside the normal racing line...maybe thus the rear lock up.
see
The pass (http://www.champcarfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=37827)
SB and PT were sort of straddling the main line while Nelson was right in it.
cameraman
08-16-06, 07:25 PM
The point is that the move Tracy made was not as wildly optimistic as most are intent on assuming. :rolleyes:
The results of the attempt prove you wrong.
grungex
08-16-06, 08:36 PM
Nonsense. :rolleyes:
tifosi77
08-16-06, 09:03 PM
Compare
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c5/gpflepsen//pics/CCF/denver/49.jpg
with
http://temp.corvetteforum.net/c5/gpflepsen//pics/CCF/denver/b.jpg
Same guy took the pictures from the same spot. Look at the marks on the track to determine the positions of the four cars in the two images. Nelson is half a car ahead by the 'Frontier Air' sign, whereas PT is not only still at least that far behind Bourdais 50 feet further up the road, he is already locked up and out of control and no longer effectively slowing his car down.
jonovision_man
08-16-06, 09:05 PM
Just for kicks... found this out there in the youtube world:
Zanardi vs Tracy, 1997... similar result.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKieyMLOcng
jono
Dr. Corkski
08-16-06, 09:06 PM
The results of the attempt prove you wrong.As if a Tracy fan cares about results. :rofl:
Spicoli
08-16-06, 09:16 PM
:YAWN:
The point is that the move Tracy made was not as wildly optimistic as most are intent on assuming. :rolleyes:
I agree, in the vid you can see he actually catches the slide... you know, right before for the contact :) I think if SB had given him a bit more room they both would have made the corner, but it was SB's right, to turn in when he did and Tracy was clearly 'in the wrong' no doubt about it. But how many times have we seen similiar moves... from 'the move' at Laguna Seca, to Schumacher/Hakkinen, to the very race we've been talking about, where somebody bulls there way inside and the car being passed has to check up to avoid a collision.
In the absence of PT lust or hatred I see the contact as both of their faults to some extent. Clearly PT is more to blame since he instigated the move and screwed it up. But racing is about calculating the risk/reward of certain attempts or moves and that includes when to turn-in to a corner if you think someone might bonzai ya.
As such, one must ask the obvious question, why the freak didn't SB anticipate Tracy trying to go deep into the last corner on the last lap of the race when everyone else did (come on admit it, you did).
SB's internal conversation should have gone something like this...
- He hates my guts
- Blames me for taking him out several times last year (which I did let's admit it ;) )
- It's the final corner on the last lap
- He's just made a demon drive from the back of the pack after being punted and his car is strong
- The only reason I've caught him is a rh-turn fuel pickup problem
- He's got nothing to lose
- His teammate is my primary championship rival
- He's Paul Tracy and loves racing more than thinking
- He REALLY hates my freaking guts
- 2 points... 2 lousy points
But apparantly none of this registered with SB, because he assumed that PT would give yield the corner to him and that he could turn in on the racing line (or near it). Problem is, PT DID have the above conversation in his head and assumed the SB would yield the real estate.
Either of them could have come to a different/correct conclusion, but I think that SB had more reasons to come to the correct conclusion than PT did.
Blame wise, I say PT 65% and SB 35% since SB is supposed to be smarter than PT.
grungex
08-16-06, 09:50 PM
Unfortunately, Seabass' arrogance far outweighs his intelligence. Great post.
Unfortunately, Seabass' arrogance far outweighs his intelligence. Great post.
:rolleyes: That's why SeaBass has more titles than PT in 1/4 the career... b/c of intelligence, right.
And at no point should SB have to yield because FaFu is a tosser who's out of control. The other drivers in the series shouldn't have to stop racing and pull over everytime FaFu comes by because "well I know he doesn't like me and he's probably going to punt me if he can't pass me." That's some really stupid logic. If FaFu is incapable of racing without punting, he needs to be benched, not rewarded with carte blanche over the entirety of the circuit.
You know, I have to give Schumacher this much despite disliking him b/c of 94, 97 & his chop starts. At least he pulls off a pass w/o punting someone every now and then...
grungex
08-17-06, 09:30 AM
<yawn>
So the new paradigm is that PT will never be fully at fault for crashing someone because they should know that if they pass him he will likely take them out?
Brilliant. :shakehead
Andrew Longman
08-17-06, 11:58 AM
So the new paradigm is that PT will never be fully at fault for crashing someone because they should know that if they pass him he will likely take them out?
Brilliant. :shakehead
Not necessarily.
If you go back and look at the debate following every PT SB "encounter", people have plenty of opinions on who was to blame.
About the only conclusions that can be made with certainty are that both these guys are highly competitive, will never yield to the other, always will push it to 10/10ths or even 11/10ths around the other, and generate a ton of positive interest for the series.
Face it. What's crazier? Trying to pass PT on the outside of the last turn (which I think hadn't been done all day) knowing the late apex had to cross PTs apex? Or trying to return SBs pass with a ridiculously late brake to push SB even further outside?
In both cases, SB so far ahead in points and PT so far back, the extra points hardly justify the risks, but they are both racers and as a fan I am glad they show their competitiveness. Also as a fan I would prefer they not actually take each other out.
grungex
08-17-06, 12:01 PM
Well put.
Not necessarily.
If you go back and look at the debate following every PT SB "encounter", people have plenty of opinions on who was to blame.
I was responding to anearlier post I should have quoted.
Face it. What's crazier? Trying to pass PT on the outside of the last turn (which I think hadn't been done all day) knowing the late apex had to cross PTs apex? Or trying to return SBs pass with a ridiculously late brake to push SB even further outside?
In both cases, SB so far ahead in points and PT so far back, the extra points hardly justify the risks, but they are both racers and as a fan I am glad they show their competitiveness. Also as a fan I would prefer they not actually take each other out.
Bourdais driving past a limping PT was not a crazy move it was necessary, he can't sit behind a car that isn't accellerating because of fuel pick up problems.
The crazy move was PT braking so late and off line that he locked the rear tires and slid straight across his turn in, into the leading car.
tifosi77
08-17-06, 05:25 PM
Bourdais driving past a limping PT was not a crazy move it was necessary, he can't sit behind a car that isn't accellerating because of fuel pick up problems.
While I agree with the point you are making, I don't think PT was slow down the straight so much as Bourdais still had his last shot of P2P in the bank and had 75 more horsepower on tap. Wouldn't affect top end speed so much - that's likely aero-limited - but it certainly would impact how quickly you got to that speed. I think he had Tracy done and dusted before he even shifted into 7th gear and was two car lengths ahead before they got to the brake zone.
pferrf1
08-17-06, 06:40 PM
While I agree with the point you are making, I don't think PT was slow down the straight so much as Bourdais still had his last shot of P2P in the bank and had 75 more horsepower on tap. Wouldn't affect top end speed so much - that's likely aero-limited - but it certainly would impact how quickly you got to that speed. I think he had Tracy done and dusted before he even shifted into 7th gear and was two car lengths ahead before they got to the brake zone.
Absolutlely!
The incident comes down to SB having P2P while PT didn't and PT deciding that he would be able to keep the corner because he'd be able to late brake SB due to the differing entry speeds and braking points. Its called racing and racecraft.
I think if PT just told it like that thiswould be all done. What has inflamed the sitiuation is PT talking trash with insinuations that SB should be careful around him, etc.... His mouth has made this worse than what it is.
So the new paradigm is that PT will never be fully at fault for crashing someone because they should know that if they pass him he will likely take them out?
Brilliant. :shakehead
No one said this, well except for you. Where's the 'strawman' smiley when I need it.
indyfan31
08-18-06, 01:38 AM
I agree with JT. I would've tried the same thing with that much real estate available on the last turn of the last lap. IMO, SB was an idiot for trying to turn in that early - especially after he gave up the inside of the turn.
Still PT's fault, but SB's fault for not playing it safe.
Finally. A post that tells it like it happened, without the whinny comments from haters of one side or another. Sebastian went in hot, missed the corner and left the door wide open. Yeah, Tracy blew the turn. But if Bourdais thought that leaving a hole that big would go unchallenged by Tracy (when fighting for 2nd) then he's a fool.
P Hanley
08-18-06, 06:34 PM
Finally. A post that tells it like it happened, without the whinny comments from haters of one side or another. Sebastian went in hot, missed the corner and left the door wide open. Yeah, Tracy blew the turn. But if Bourdais thought that leaving a hole that big would go unchallenged by Tracy (when fighting for 2nd) then he's a fool.
I don't post very often, but I'm constantly viewing. I have to admit that I've been a PT fan since the guy was just a boy driving for pimpski. This has in turn led to multiple broken hearts as well as some spectacular days. Now I'm not a racer or anything, but if I was, even I would know what to expect if I was going to pass PT on the final lap of a race where you know he would have the green light to do what ever it would take to keep SB behind him. Over the last month even I have seen the major brain farts that PT has made, absolutely no excuse for the Tag incident, and there isn't really one for the SB one either, BUT who here wouldn't expect it.
grungex
08-18-06, 06:45 PM
I've read the threads about this on various forums, and the general consensus among the Monday-morning armchair quarterbacks is that PT has been a reckless idiot crashing out at every opportunity this season. I'm curious, however, to see if someone can come up with a list of the moves he has made this season that would justify all of the vitriol and condemnation of him as a talentless hack.
I'll start -- San Jose.
I'll finish - San Jose ;)
grungex
08-18-06, 07:01 PM
Pretty much what I was thinking. Anyone else?
tifosi77
08-18-06, 07:08 PM
I'm curious, however, to see if someone can come up with a list of the moves he has made this season that would justify all of the vitriol and condemnation of him as a talentless hack.
I'll start -- San Jose.
I definitely don't think he's a talentless hack by any means, but to me it appears he is digging deeper this year and finding less and less in the tank.
- He has led as many laps as Bourdais has won races this year.
- How many times has he crashed/spun off/run wide/etc during practice or qualifying this year? How many times did he do it on the Cleveland weekend alone? How many times has he tangled with other drivers on track during non-race sessions?
- How many times has he out-qualified his team mate this year?
I was surprised to learn a few months ago that in 11 of his 14 full seasons in this series he has been beaten by his team mate in points. And since the arrival of Allmendinger, he has been rendered the #2 driver in a team that is pretty much set up around him.
No one would confuse him with Alain Prost or Rick Mearns behind the wheel, but his driving this year has been utterly ragged even by his standards. You go out trackside and watch him, he looks a mess. He's trying hard, no doubt. It's just not there this year.
grungex
08-18-06, 07:14 PM
Could you try to just answer my question, please?
tifosi77
08-18-06, 07:19 PM
I did. If you want me to enumerate all the specific incidents where he has spun off, crashed, collected another car, been outqualified and out-raced by his team mate(s), etc, it will take a loooong time to compile, cos it's quite a lengthy list.
And that's just to cover July. ;)
His level of driving this year (with the notable exceptions of Toronto, San Jose and Denver) just has not been up to the standard of a series champion, imo.
grungex
08-18-06, 07:24 PM
I asked for a list of incidents, you posted a bunch of questions.
tifosi77
08-18-06, 08:27 PM
Well..... answer the questions and you'll have your list. :)
a car that is completely ahead of another should never have to be the one making adjustments for the car behind.
it's not as if bourdais was a nose, wing, or even a wheel ahead. his car was completely ahead.
I was surprised to learn a few months ago that in 11 of his 14 full seasons in this series he has been beaten by his team mate in points.
you might want to recheck that...
tifosi77
08-18-06, 09:11 PM
you might want to recheck that...
Already did.
If you want to discount 1991 and 1992 as partial seasons we can start with 1993.
He did not finish higher than a team mate until 1997. He did not do it again until 2000. And again until 2003 (his championship year). In 2004 he had a handle on Lavin, but finished behind Carpentier. And this year, he's still behind Dominguez despite MD being in a Dale Coyne car for the past six races.... never mind Allmendinger.
So not counting 91 and 92 that's 10 seasons behind a team mate, and 4 seasons ahead. (plus the push of 2004) If we do count those first partial years, the numbers are 12-4. So you were right, my numbers were a bit off.
;)
Granted, on four occasions he has finished only one place behind a team mate. But that's still behind.
(All stats sourced from www.champcar.ws)
Andrew Longman
08-19-06, 09:51 AM
FWIW, Given the hug and smile GF gave PT after the race, and his comments that he would have smacked PT himself if he did not contest for P2, and the contract he gave him, it seems the guy who has the most to gain and lose from PTs driving has no problem with him.
PT is PT. He's busted up a lot of equipment going back to when he raced at Penske. He's long gone off track in practice and qualifying. He's never been a points racer. He's taken out teammates. He's fought with team owners. His risk taking has never been very calculated.
This year, starting with Dominguez knocking him about, he has not been particularly lucky. And he has admitted that he feels more challenged by his teammate than ever before so he is no doubt pushing hard. It's been a rough year, but he is IMO showing no signs of being washed up.
No, not from the "racing as entertainment" viewpoint, but I'm happy the old stat sheet has been brought up to show there was only one season where he actually washed IN. Nobody I know of has ever questioned his speed or skill, just his injudicious application of them in competition. I can't even imagine 5 more years of the same.
Insomniac
08-19-06, 03:32 PM
Seems like PT goes race to race wanting to win at all costs. I don't think he's concerned about the bigger picture (championships) as much as he just wants to race/compete. If he did, he would've started being more calculating years ago. He knows this too. I remember way back, he recongnized if he could finish in the Top 5 all season long he'd win the championship. Problem is, PT isn't happy with a Top 5.
Seems like PT goes race to race wanting to win at all costs. I don't think he's concerned about the bigger picture (championships) as much as he just wants to race/compete.
It appears this is the teams attitude not just PT's. Nemick had a few posts on this topic over at crapwagon on Friday.
Insomniac
08-20-06, 10:08 AM
It appears this is the teams attitude not just PT's. Nemick had a few posts on this topic over at crapwagon on Friday.
If they're all happy with it, that's fine. Their team, their choice. From my perspective, they don't have to be as mutuallye xclusive as they make it. Sometimes you don't have the best car or startegy, you have to accept that at the time. It doesn't mean you don't work harder to get better. Be a little smarter and you'll make more money too.
I understand their attitude but I don't really agree with it. I guess I'm just nostolgic for the old days when the Championship meant a lot more then it does today.
tifosi77
08-20-06, 05:12 PM
Something to point out where PT is concerned..... it's not his attitude that I'm not a big fan of. It's his execution.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.