Denver penalties

[theunions]

CHAMP CAR WORLD SERIES ISSUES PENALTIES REGARDING SUNDAY'S GRAND PRIX OF DENVER

INDIANAPOLIS (August 15, 2006) - The Champ Car World Series has imposed penalties to 2003 series champion Paul Tracy for his actions at Sunday's Grand Prix of Denver Sponsored by Bridgestone.

Tracy's on-track actions in Denver were determined to be in violation of his probation, which was a part of his penalty for his actions during the Champ Car event in San Jose July 30.

As a result, Tracy will forfeit three (3) championship points, will be fined $25,000 and will have his probation extended for one more race. The original probation was for three races, and will now be extended to include the Lexmark Indy 300 in Surfers Paradise, Australia.

[KLang]

After his comment about not being able to be sat down I half expected them to do it.

Are these penalties spelled out in the rules or do they make them up as they go?

[TrueBrit]

CHAMP CAR WORLD SERIES ISSUES PENALTIES REGARDING SUNDAY'S GRAND PRIX OF DENVER

INDIANAPOLIS (August 15, 2006) - The Champ Car World Series has imposed penalties to 2003 series champion Paul Tracy for his actions at Sunday's Grand Prix of Denver Sponsored by Bridgestone.

Tracy's on-track actions in Denver were determined to be in violation of his probation, which was a part of his penalty for his actions during the Champ Car event in San Jose July 30.

As a result, Tracy will forfeit three (3) championship points, will be fined $25,000 and will have his probation extended for one more race. The original probation was for three races, and will now be extended to include the Lexmark Indy 300 in Surfers Paradise, Australia.


Wow, man, that's like really HARSH..... :rolleyes:

Double-super-secret-extra-naughty-we-REALLY-mean-it-this-time-probation.....WTF?


Gutless turds.... :thumdown:

[Wally]

I'm OK with it....... ;)

[Dr. Corkski]

NASCAR. :gomer:

[dando]

They forgot to add that PT's also being forced to eat McD's for a month. :gomer:

-Kevin

[Dr. Corkski]

They forgot to add that PT's also being forced to McD's for a month. :gomer:

-KevinThat's more like a reward for FaFu. :gomer:

[Audi_A4]

I am a big fan of PT and think he adds a lot of colour and excitement to the series but he needs to be parked for a race. PT is out of control. I guess with Montreal coming up they need all the canadians in the field.

[mueber]

Fair enough. It was a dumb move, but it wasn't no hangin' matter.

[Wheel-Nut]

Fair enough. It was a dumb move, but it wasn't no hangin' matter.


I agree. Penalize him for the dumb move. Penalize him for talking smack? :shakehead

[TKGAngel]

Why is Seb not penalized for shoving PT first? I know the 'he started it' isnt a valid defence, but seriously. :shakehead

[KLang]

Why is Seb not penalized for shoving PT first? I know the 'he started it' isnt a valid defence, but seriously. :shakehead

Don't know that the shove deserves anything but didn't CART penalize drivers for crossing a hot track?

[Dr. Corkski]

Don't know that the shove deserves anything but didn't CART penalize drivers for crossing a hot track?Did Tracy get one last year for pushing a safety worker off of him in order to cross a hot track? :gomer:

that was probably n/h's fault too

[Chiphead_Dave]

Load -o- Crap :thumdown:

Not only shouldn't PT been fined but
if PT was SB definitely should have been.

I would have voted for no penalty for the incident
or the pushing but a $lap to SB for crossing
a hot track.

You think SB thinks he can do no wrong up until
now wait until Montreal.

SB: "All of these people are less snobby than me get them off the track".

[Ankf00]

Load -o- Crap :thumdown:

Not only shouldn't PT been fined but
if PT was SB definitely should have been.

I would have voted for no penalty for the incident
or the pushing but a $lap to SB for crossing
a hot track.

yea, why punish someone for making a boneheaded move while on probation? that would be over the line!

[Chiphead_Dave]

yea, why punish someone for making a boneheaded move while on probation? that would be over the line!

Me=Not convinced PT made a bonhead move. He was fighting for position and he overcooked it. So what! When did we start penalizing for trying to race.

[Dr. Corkski]

Me=Not convinced PT made a bonhead move. He was fighting for position and he overcooked it. So what! When did we start penalizing for trying to race.When Mario Dominguez got 7 points docked and fired for Milwaukee? Also Dominguez was not even on probation.

Where was the uproar then?

[Ed_Severson]

Good God, the meltdowns over at PTFanatics are ****in' hilarious!

I spent the entire race in pitlane (with no Jumbotron, WTF? :saywhat: ), and I haven't seen any footage of any of the incidents yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but there are a few things to consider here.

1) The fine, points penalty, and extension of Tracy's probation, according to the press release, are the result of "his actions at Sunday's Grand Prix of Denver Sponsored by Bridgestone." Nowhere does it say that the punishment is the result of the last-lap incident with Bourdais and only that incident. It's my understanding (but again, I haven't seen it yet for myself) that Tracy was also involved in an incident in the middle of the race which put Dominguez in the wall and ended his day. If so, it seems probable that this punishment is the result of both incidents together, not just the deal with Bourdais.

2) I would guess that Tagliani would have gotten off much lighter after San Jose if he had confronted Tracy once and walked away. Instead, he took a long, deliberate walk down pitlane to go after Paul, pushed him around a bit, walked away, and then went after him again. Bourdais, on the other hand, went after Tracy pretty much immediately, pushed him once, and left it at that. Lots of people griping that Bourdais should've been fined since Tagliani was fined after San Jose, but those were two very different sets of circumstances. These guys aren't perfect ... they all carry a little fire, and this sort of thing happens, especially in the heat of the moment after a crash. Champ Car will allow for that, to a point, but Tagliani simply took it too far. As for not fining Bourdais for crossing a hot track, I can only assume that no fine was handed out since it was the first time Bourdais has ever done anything remotely like that, and I know that, at minimum, he was given a verbal warning. I see him walking out of the trailer after just about every race ... Sunday was the first time he's ever looked contrite about anything post-race, so I'm sure he got the message loud and clear.

3) Again, not having seen it for myself, I can't really assign blame in the Tracy-Bourdais incident, but even if it was 50/50, it's no surprise that Tracy got the harsher penalty. The reality is that drivers who are on probation get treated differently than those who are not. Even so, I'm not sure that this incident would have merited a one-race suspension even back in the good old days, when we could afford to sit a guy like Tracy out for a race.

[Easy]

Me=Not convinced PT made a bonhead move. He was fighting for position and he overcooked it. So what! When did we start penalizing for trying to race.


It is up to the overtaking car to execute a safe pass. Tracy tried to outbrake SB from way the hell back and predictably locked the rears, lost control and took out the leading car. PT's fault. Couple that with his blocking of SB and BEING ON PROBATION and he deserves further sanction. Any rookie would be sat down for a race if they had done what PT has.

[pferrf1]

Good God, the meltdowns over at PTFanatics are ****in' hilarious!

I spent the entire race in pitlane (with no Jumbotron, WTF? :saywhat: ), and I haven't seen any footage of any of the incidents yet, so take this with a grain of salt, but there are a few things to consider here.

1) The fine, points penalty, and extension of Tracy's probation, according to the press release, are the result of "his actions at Sunday's Grand Prix of Denver Sponsored by Bridgestone." Nowhere does it say that the punishment is the result of the last-lap incident with Bourdais and only that incident. It's my understanding (but again, I haven't seen it yet for myself) that Tracy was also involved in an incident in the middle of the race which put Dominguez in the wall and ended his day. If so, it seems probable that this punishment is the result of both incidents together, not just the deal with Bourdais.

2) I would guess that Tagliani would have gotten off much lighter after San Jose if he had confronted Tracy once and walked away. Instead, he took a long, deliberate walk down pitlane to go after Paul, pushed him around a bit, walked away, and then went after him again. Bourdais, on the other hand, went after Tracy pretty much immediately, pushed him once, and left it at that. Lots of people griping that Bourdais should've been fined since Tagliani was fined after San Jose, but those were two very different sets of circumstances. These guys aren't perfect ... they all carry a little fire, and this sort of thing happens, especially in the heat of the moment after a crash. Champ Car will allow for that, to a point, but Tagliani simply took it too far. As for not fining Bourdais for crossing a hot track, I can only assume that no fine was handed out since it was the first time Bourdais has ever done anything remotely like that, and I know that, at minimum, he was given a verbal warning. I see him walking out of the trailer after just about every race ... Sunday was the first time he's ever looked contrite about anything post-race, so I'm sure he got the message loud and clear.

3) Again, not having seen it for myself, I can't really assign blame in the Tracy-Bourdais incident, but even if it was 50/50, it's no surprise that Tracy got the harsher penalty. The reality is that drivers who are on probation get treated differently than those who are not. Even so, I'm not sure that this incident would have merited a one-race suspension even back in the good old days, when we could afford to sit a guy like Tracy out for a race.

Actually - The release clearly states that the fine was for "on-track" actions.

[Ed_Severson]

Actually - The release clearly states that the fine was for "on-track" actions.

No kidding? :gomer:

It doesn't say which of his on-track actions, though, does it? And if he punted Mario, that would have taken place on the track, no?

I'm not sure where I lost you, but I think you missed my point. ;)

[Ed_Severson]

I just wanted to add that the hilarity over at PTFanatics has reached a new level. Paper is now taking credit for Sebastien's DQ in Thursday qualifying at Houston! :gomer:

[Dr. Corkski]

I just wanted to add that the hilarity over at PTFanatics has reached a new level. Paper is now taking credit for Sebastien's DQ in Thursday qualifying at Houston! :gomer:Also suggested that Paul Gentilozzi should be the new Chief Steward. Then someone asked if Gentilozzi would have to give up his Champ Car team to do so. Unintentional :gomer: comedy ^ infinity.

[nrc]

Any rookie would be sat down for a race if they had done what PT has.

Easy, "Speedy" Dan Clarke. Dan, Easy.

[nrc]

When Mario Dominguez got 7 points docked and fired for Milwaukee? Also Dominguez was not even on probation.
Last I checked Cottman didn't fire Dominquez.

[RacinM3]

It is up to the overtaking car to execute a safe pass.

Safe passing requires both drivers to work together.

[Dr. Corkski]

Last I checked Cottman didn't fire Dominquez.I blame N/H for that too.

Can I have my hardcard now? :gomer:

[cameraman]

Safe passing requires both drivers to work together.

Bourdais was over a car length ahead of Tracy going into the turn. He wasn't obligated to do a thing. Tracy went in too far, too fast and the car did not turn so he went straight into Bourdais. It is 100% on Tracy.

Should Tracy have gotten penalized for that - no. Every single CCWS driver has done exactly that to someone else more than once but does not make it any less stupid.

[grungex]

When Mario Dominguez got 7 points docked and fired for Milwaukee?
He was penalized because, even after it was proven to him beyond a doubt that he was at fault, he continued to insist that it was Bruno that ran into him. Although it is true he was not then on probation, it was obviously not the first time during the season that he had run into someone, nor was it the first time he had taken out his teammate.

[Dr. Corkski]

Nowhere does it say in the rulebook that whether someone admits fault is taken into consideration when it comes to handing down penalties:
The rule states: Any driver who in the opinion of the Officials initiates avouidable contact which results in the interruption of another competitor's lap time or track position will be subject to a penalty per Chapter 10. Should the contact result in the immediate retirement of the other competitor, further penalties may be assessed. Judgmental decisions by the Officials in this regard are not subject to protest or appeal.

[grungex]

Do you seriously believe that a 'mea culpa' wouldn't be beneficial in such an instance?

[grungex]

Good God, the meltdowns over at PTFanatics are ****in' hilarious!
Best be careful, Ed, you might piss somebody off,,,,,, :D

[extramundane]

Also suggested that Paul Gentilozzi should be the new Chief Steward. Then someone asked if Gentilozzi would have to give up his Champ Car team to do so. Unintentional :gomer: comedy ^ infinity.

w00t! Sucketsports will win again! :gomer:

[Ed_Severson]

Best be careful, Ed, you might piss somebody off,,,,,, :D

i cant possible imagine who that would bee ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :gomer:

[Ruben Barrios]

Well let me see.... By this time, PT's Mom's ass must be huge... I mean with so many people kissing it.... I'm sure Porky's ass is full of paper by now...

What irks me is that most of the folks at PT's Fanatics forum are nice people... but when it comes to idolizing it is out of control...

Nelson was considered an idiot... he started posting in that site, now he is a hero...

Neil Micklewright post there, now he is tho authority and the best and most levelheaded team administrator in the face of the earth... His word is bond, mind you he is part of the team in question...

Porky's mom posts there... wow she can bad mouth anyone she wants, and she still gets called a "lady" but no one need counter her because then they get banned...

I just keep looking for a non baised place that can sit down and discuss things without becoming blind servant of Porky's clan....

A place where Champcar also makes mistakes and those can be discussed without being labled as traitors...

I'll keep looking...

[grungex]

I'd say you're already there. I'm not thrilled that you also have a pointless fascination with Paul's weight, but knock yourself out.

[Ruben Barrios]

I don't care about Porky's weight... I call him porky becasue in my country pigs are believed to be dirty creatures (though in reality they are quite clean).

That out of the way... I very much believe that the series would be better off without Porky... There are far better, cleaner, sharper and faster drivers out there...

[grungex]

:rolleyes:

[B3RACER1a]

Tracy has a history of doing things just like this, which is the reason for the probation extension. I can see where the fine came from, especially after the incidents at the last race.

Will be VERY interesting if he is involved in any incidents in the next few races. And statistically speaking, thats a really good probability.

**Note: There are people over at CCF that are placing the blame on SB for "turning into Tracy". LOL! :rofl: **

[Ankf00]

Although it is true he was not then on probation, it was obviously not the first time during the season that he had run into someone, nor was it the first time he had taken out his teammate.
gee, who does this remind me of over the past 13 years? :rofl:

[Fio1]

Well let me see.... By this time, PT's Mom's ass must be huge... I mean with so many people kissing it.... I'm sure Porky's ass is full of paper by now...

What irks me is that most of the folks at PT's Fanatics forum are nice people... but when it comes to idolizing it is out of control...

Nelson was considered an idiot... he started posting in that site, now he is a hero...

Neil Micklewright post there, now he is tho authority and the best and most levelheaded team administrator in the face of the earth... His word is bond, mind you he is part of the team in question...

Porky's mom posts there... wow she can bad mouth anyone she wants, and she still gets called a "lady" but no one need counter her because then they get banned...

I just keep looking for a non baised place that can sit down and discuss things without becoming blind servant of Porky's clan....

A place where Champcar also makes mistakes and those can be discussed without being labled as traitors...

I'll keep looking...

Isn't that funny! My favorite thing is that Gentilozzi posts there and those guys consider his team to be on par with Penske. 4 seconds off the pace or not....And, now some :shakehead are accusing NH of having traction control. :eek: WTF?

Like he would care. But, SeaBass, send your wife on that forum and tomorrow all those guys will love you. :shakehead

[TKGAngel]

Isn't that funny! My favorite thing is that Gentilozzi posts there and those guys consider his team to be on par with Penske. 4 seconds off the pace or not....And, now some :shakehead are accusing NH of having traction control. :eek: WTF?

Like he would care. But, SeaBass, send your wife on that forum and tomorrow all those guys will love you. :shakehead

Doesn't Mrs. B work in PR or something for the Atlantics? She's probably already aware of sites like CCF, OC, etc.

Oh, and does PG even still have a team? When's the last time they did anything noteworthy?

[Insomniac]

Bourdais was over a car length ahead of Tracy going into the turn. He wasn't obligated to do a thing. Tracy went in too far, too fast and the car did not turn so he went straight into Bourdais. It is 100% on Tracy.

Bourdais was way ahead and was also quite wide as well. Part of that way ahead was because of that. Regardless, PT was behind him and he braked too late to get through the turn.

[Insomniac]

FCR responds:

Neil Micklewright, Forsythe Racing’s Vice President of Team Operations, expressed frustration with the decision.

“I believe that the penalty imposed to Paul Tracy for the last-lap incident is simply wrong and not appropriate, but we have to accept the decision of the series even if we don’t agree with it,” he said. “That’s the nature of the sport. We eagerly await the penalty that we believe should be handed to Sebastien Bourdais for his part in the incident, including running across a ‘hot’ track and initiating physical contact with our driver.
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/31051/

[race chica]

I guess with Montreal coming up they need all the canadians in the field.

Isnt Montreal in Quebec? Maybe the French will keep their helmats on during the race in case we see Part Trois?

[jonovision_man]

ChampCar needs to better define what being on probation means. Apparantly it means absolutely nothing.

But hey, his probation (which means nothing) has been extended! That'll teach him. :shakehead

The series just proved PT right - CCWS is in such desparate shape for car counts that they can't sit a driver who deserves it. Pathetic.

jono

[Easy]

Safe passing requires both drivers to work together.

Right, you can't just turn in on somebody but when the overtaking car comes in sideways with the rears locked, its his fault.

[Fio1]

Right, you can't just turn in on somebody but when the overtaking car comes in sideways with the rears locked, its his fault.

Exactly. What do you want Bourdais to do, go off line in the marbles to give Tracy room? Who knows if Tracy would have made the corner anyways? And, why should Bourdais understeer into the wall by driving off line because some idiot broke at the 'oh shht sign'?

The picture from Tracy's incar showing Bourdais way infront before the brake zone, tells us everything we need to know about this scenario. Bourdais does not brake early. He didn't in F.Renault when I first saw him, he sure as heck doesn't 10 years later! So, that wasn't the issue. The problem was Tracy outbraking himself in the corner and collecting the car infront of him. :cool:

[RHR_Fan]

Well let me see.... By this time, PT's Mom's ass must be huge... I mean with so many people kissing it.... I'm sure Porky's ass is full of paper by now...

What irks me is that most of the folks at PT's Fanatics forum are nice people... but when it comes to idolizing it is out of control...

Nelson was considered an idiot... he started posting in that site, now he is a hero...

Neil Micklewright post there, now he is tho authority and the best and most levelheaded team administrator in the face of the earth... His word is bond, mind you he is part of the team in question...

Porky's mom posts there... wow she can bad mouth anyone she wants, and she still gets called a "lady" but no one need counter her because then they get banned...

I just keep looking for a non baised place that can sit down and discuss things without becoming blind servant of Porky's clan....

A place where Champcar also makes mistakes and those can be discussed without being labled as traitors...

I'll keep looking...

I do also post there, and agree for the most part with what you saw about "idolizing." I looked at the first page of whatever thread PT's mom started and then I just stopped. I didn't need or want to read it.

I am a bit surprised that SB didn't get something. Didn't he shove first? But yet again I'm not getting my undies in a bundle over it so whatever penalties get handed out I'm fine with.

~Nicole

[Dirty Sanchez]

paper should be penalized for being a tool.

nice smackdown, ed :thumbup:

[theunions]

Doesn't Mrs. B work in PR or something for the Atlantics?

I know she does website work for her hubby. As for Atlantics, there is a "Claire Bourdais" listed in the current Atlantics media guide, published before Long Beach...but technically she wasn't married yet at the point of publication, and the few photos of said person on the series site show Claire wearing sunglasses, so I'm not positive it's the same person...can anyone clarify?

[Easy]

The problem was Tracy outbraking himself in the corner and collecting the car infront of him. :cool:


Which is exactly what I said.

Tracy most likely would have found the tire wall if he hadn't hit Bourdais first.

[Ed_Severson]

I know she does website work for her hubby. As for Atlantics, there is a "Claire Bourdais" listed in the current Atlantics media guide, published before Long Beach...but technically she wasn't married yet at the point of publication, and the few photos of said person on the series site show Claire wearing sunglasses, so I'm not positive it's the same person...can anyone clarify?

It is her ... I'm not exactly sure what she does, although I think it is PR work of some sort. At any rate, Claire does work in the Atlantics series.

[cameraman]

I have to agree with Micklewright, why wasn't Bourdais fined or something for running around that corner like an idiot and shoving PT?

[tifosi77]

Hi all, first post here after being encouraged to seek a more civil debate than can be had at CCF. Good to read some familiar names here, too. Thanks to Ed_Severson for the tip!

Okay, clearly the collision between Seb and PT was PTs fault. How a driver can be out of control of his car and not be at fault when said car collects another is beyond me, but there you go.

However, I think that Bourdais should've been sanctioned in some public way for crossing the track to remonstrate with PT. Will Power actually had to get on the brakes when Bourdais started to cross. Google 'Tom Pryce' to see where this sort of thing can lead. I do not think Seb needed a penalty for the pushing/shoving thing. That was an order of magnitude less severe than San Jose - which took place perhaps four-five minutes after the on-track shemozzle, and involved two seperate physical incidents, punches being thrown, drivers being tackled, by standers being drawn in, FCC Verboten Words being dropped left and right, etc... - and simply wasn't a big deal to me. San Jose was 5 each for fighting, while Denver was at worst 2 for roughing, and was more likely not even something the ref would need to blow the whistle for. It was certainly not as worrisome as Bourdais crossing a hot race track.

[G.]

I just keep looking for a non baised place that can sit down and discuss things without becoming blind servant of Porky's clan....

A place where Champcar also makes mistakes and those can be discussed without being labled as traitors...

I'll keep looking...Try offcamber.net.

'Bout the only thing you can't do here is have an appreciation for the Grand Am ;) :gomer:

You can call 'foul' over here on CC anytime, just be prepared to defend it, respectfully. Unless you're dealing with Spicoli. Then respect goes out the window. (Joking, Spicoli!) About the worst you get over here is the rollie-eyes, unless you're an idiot, and you ain't.

I swear, CCF is getting to be WORSE than TF. I'm not kidding. If you discount the usual suspects at TF, you can almost see some nearly balanced discussion. No, I haven't been drinking.

(I cannot put ENOUGH weight to the comment about discounting the usual suspects!)

TF pisses me off, but CCF lowers my IQ. I don't have any more room to go down, dammit!

OT, sort of: If SB hits the brakes, even staying on the racing line, we would be talking about PT's great, bold move that either A). didn't work and put (only) him into the wall, or B). PT's great, bold move that gave him P2.

I'm just saying.

[chop456]

And if my aunt had balls.... :p

[Ed_Severson]

And if my aunt had balls.... :p

... she'd be famous? :gomer:

[RHR_Fan]

And if my aunt had balls.... :p

What kind of aunt do you have there Chop? ;)

[Ankf00]

I think chop is a very compassionate and loving relative for providing emotional support to his new uncle as he goes through his difficult transition period.

I recommend, chop, that you talk to Spicoli. He knows all about the difficulties your old aunt is facing first hand, which I'm sure you already suspected.

[RacinM3]

Bourdais was over a car length ahead of Tracy going into the turn. He wasn't obligated to do a thing. Tracy went in too far, too fast and the car did not turn so he went straight into Bourdais. It is 100% on Tracy.

Look, I didn't assign one ounce of blame on Bourdais. I simply said that safe passing relies on both drivers. Sometimes that means taking into account who is behind you and the likelihood of a bonehead manuever. Sometimes you alter what you're doing to account for that.

It's not a stretch to think that Bourdais had a good idea a banzai move was coming, that's all I'm saying. It doesn't mean I think it's his fault.

Tracy's move was at best ill-advised.

[G.]

And if my aunt had balls.... :p :laugh:

why does,,,, every topic have,,,, to be about,,,, you,,,,, :gomer:

It's good to talk racing for a change. Denver was NOT any sort of a parade.


[eighth-grade mode] Do you have any pictures of your aunt nekkid?














Want some?
[/end eighth-grade mode]

[tifosi77]

Look, I didn't assign one ounce of blame on Bourdais. I simply said that safe passing relies on both drivers. Sometimes that means taking into account who is behind you and the likelihood of a bonehead manuever. Sometimes you alter what you're doing to account for that.

It's not a stretch to think that Bourdais had a good idea a banzai move was coming, that's all I'm saying. It doesn't mean I think it's his fault.

Tracy's move was at best ill-advised.
There's no doubt that safe passing requires the work of both drivers. But it remains the overtaking driver's responsibility to make sure there is no contact until such time as he is ahead. At that point, the overtaken driver must then do all he can to make sure the pass is completed cleanly.

I still contend that, given the positioning of the mirrors on a Champ Car and the line Tracy chose to take, Bourdais didn't even see PT until it was too late to do anything.

[skaven]

I still contend that, given the positioning of the mirrors on a Champ Car and the line Tracy chose to take, Bourdais didn't even see PT until it was too late to do anything.

Very nice... :laugh:

and welcome to OC.

[Insomniac]

ChampCar needs to better define what being on probation means. Apparantly it means absolutely nothing.

But hey, his probation (which means nothing) has been extended! That'll teach him. :shakehead

The series just proved PT right - CCWS is in such desparate shape for car counts that they can't sit a driver who deserves it. Pathetic.

jono

I guess it means 3 points and $25k. I can only guess he would've been fine if he wasn't on probation.

[Insomniac]

Exactly. What do you want Bourdais to do, go off line in the marbles to give Tracy room? Who knows if Tracy would have made the corner anyways? And, why should Bourdais understeer into the wall by driving off line because some idiot broke at the 'oh shht sign'?

Not disagreeing with you, but wasn't Bourdais off line and in the marbles? He went around the outside of PT, which no one tried to do in that turn the whole race (as far as I know). And then left anyone room to go inside. Bourdais is obviously not going to run into the wall/tires and I'm not saying he wouldn't make the turn. It's obvious PT wasn't going to make it at that speed with Bourdais right there.

[Insomniac]

Which is exactly what I said.

Tracy most likely would have found the tire wall if he hadn't hit Bourdais first.

Damn, I don't think he was going that fast.

[Insomniac]

It is her ... I'm not exactly sure what she does, although I think it is PR work of some sort. At any rate, Claire does work in the Atlantics series.

They mentioned on one broadcast, I think Houston, that she was doing some PR for an Atlantics team (Newman-Wachs) and she also ran Bourdais' web site.

[Insomniac]

Look, I didn't assign one ounce of blame on Bourdais. I simply said that safe passing relies on both drivers. Sometimes that means taking into account who is behind you and the likelihood of a bonehead manuever. Sometimes you alter what you're doing to account for that.

It's not a stretch to think that Bourdais had a good idea a banzai move was coming, that's all I'm saying. It doesn't mean I think it's his fault.

Tracy's move was at best ill-advised.

I think Bourdais did just that. He knew it was PT and left plenty of room. Which probably seemed logical at the time, but you give him that much daylight, he's going to take it regardless of the outcome.

[jonovision_man]

I guess it means 3 points and $25k. I can only guess he would've been fine if he wasn't on probation.

Possibly.

But I tend to think of probation as a last chance before the ultimate punishment... ie. we could ban you right now but we're giving you one more chance, don't blow it.

Obviously CCWS doesn't see it that way, especially when they're down to 16 cars and the driver in question is Canadian and the next race is in Canada. :saywhat:

jono

[pferrf1]

Looking at the various replays, it looks to me like the collision happened as follows:

1) PT is out of P2P.
2) SB hits his P2P button on the straight and significantly shoots by PT approaching the corner.
3) SB has to get on the brakes a little earlier than PT because he is on the P2P and is approaching the corner at a faster speed than PT.
4) PT knows that SB has to brake earlier and decides he can late brake the corner and not give it up to SB.
5) SB cuts into the corner from the outside 'cause the last time he saw PT he was at least a car length behind him
5) PT locks up his brakes in his effort to out-brake SB and loses control, thus running into the side of SB.

To me, chalk it up to a racing incident with perhaps a touch of blame for over aggressivenes to PT. I think PT f-ed up an over ambitious out braking maneuver. If he wasn't on probation he probably would have gotten nothing. I think the heart of the penalty - regardless of what the press release says - was about him basically saying he would crash out SB if he was near him on the track, and daring CCWS to sit him out with only 16 cars and Montreal coming up. His mouth cost him on this one methinks.

As for SB - if you have the rule in the book about physical contact with another driver, then enforce it.

[RacinM3]

I think Bourdais did just that. He knew it was PT and left plenty of room. Which probably seemed logical at the time, but you give him that much daylight, he's going to take it regardless of the outcome.

You could be right....maybe Bourdais felt he'd given adequate room for Tracy's FU. It's easy to armchair driver the deal.

[grungex]

ChampCar needs to better define what being on probation means. Apparantly it means absolutely nothing.
You could not be more wrong. Do you really think there would have been a penalty for this incident if he had not been on probation? Seabass got away with similar actions numerous times over the past seasons, without so much as a "tsk, tsk you naughty boy". Why does everyone make a quantum leap and assume that being on probation means a suspension will be the next step taken for any transgression, regardless of seriousness? It's certainly not in the rule book, of any series.

[jonovision_man]

You could not be more wrong. Do you really think there would have been a penalty for this incident if he had not been on probation? Seabass got away with similar actions numerous times over the past seasons, without so much as a "tsk, tsk you naughty boy". Why does everyone make a quantum leap and assume that being on probation means a suspension will be the next step taken for any transgression, regardless of seriousness? It's certainly not in the rule book, of any series.

It's possible he wouldn't have been punished for this latest blatantly idiotic move, but coupled with the post-race comments I doubt it. He's been fined for less in the past, remember the clown comments?

I don't think it's a "quantum leap" to suggest that new stupidity while under probation should mean a suspension. As I said in my response to Insomniac, "I tend to think of probation as a last chance before the ultimate punishment... ie. we could ban you right now but we're giving you one more chance, don't blow it."

PT did, and I don't think there's any question he should have been suspended if not for concerns about car count. The series was gutless and didn't do what they should have, what was long overdue.

jono

[Michaelhatesfans]

I swear, CCF is getting to be WORSE than TF. I'm not kidding. If you discount the usual suspects at TF, you can almost see some nearly balanced discussion. No, I haven't been drinking.
The level of a$$ kiss rodeo going on over there right now has reached the point of absurity. :shakehead

[coolhand]

PT should of been forced to sit out a race. But too bad the seriers only had 16 cars running so that wont happen :rolleyes:

[Indy]

Hello all. First post here as well.

I just want to say that having lurked here a bit, I really think this is a nice group of people, and I hope I can add something to the forum.

Regarding the penalties, I am fine with what has transpired, I just want to emphasize again that if anyone from Champ Car is reading this, the series needs to get tough on drivers being out of their cars on the track during green flag conditions. We are all going to recover from our favorite drivers being embarrassed in these incidents, but please let's prevent a real tragedy before it happens.

[grungex]

It's possible he wouldn't have been punished for this latest blatantly idiotic move, but coupled with the post-race comments I doubt it. He's been fined for less in the past, remember the clown comments?

I don't think it's a "quantum leap" to suggest that new stupidity while under probation should mean a suspension. As I said in my response to Insomniac, "I tend to think of probation as a last chance before the ultimate punishment... ie. we could ban you right now but we're giving you one more chance, don't blow it."

PT did, and I don't think there's any question he should have been suspended if not for concerns about car count. The series was gutless and didn't do what they should have, what was long overdue.

jono
The above is purely your opinion, biased in large part by your own determination that PT is is an idiot/moron/jackass/your insult goes here. You, and many others, are still assuming that suspension automatically follows probation, whereas it is quite likely that NOTHING would have been done about this particular incident UNLESS he was on probation.

I'm also appalled at your suggestion elsewhere that Bruno take out PT deliberately at the next race.

[Ankf00]

:cry:
*snip*
I'm also appalled at your suggestion elsewhere that Bruno take out PT deliberately at the next race.
*snip*
:cry:

I'm sure you feel the same way when discussing how "seabass is arrogant and has it coming" :laugh:

[grungex]

I never said anything along those lines, and if PT did it deliberately I would be equally appalled. Nice attempt at transference and deflection, though. Your paintbrush is getting bigger. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[jonovision_man]

The above is purely your opinion, biased in large part by your own determination that PT is is an idiot/moron/jackass/your insult goes here.

Of course it's my opinion, everything in this thread is opinion.

My determination is based on PT demonstrating that he's an idiot/moron/jackass throughout his career. If all the money he's been fined for being an idiot/moron/jackass over the years were put to good use, we could rid the world of hunger.


You, and many others, are still assuming that suspension automatically follows probation, whereas it is quite likely that NOTHING would have been done about this particular incident UNLESS he was on probation.


More should have been done. 3 points is nothing, especially to someone whose nowhere near contention for the championship, it's as close to a meaningless gesture as they could get.


I'm also appalled at your suggestion elsewhere that Bruno take out PT deliberately at the next race.

I'll be happy to discuss it with you there.

jono

[Ankf00]

I never said anything along those lines, and if PT did it deliberately I would be equally appalled. Nice attempt at transference and deflection, though. Your paintbrush is getting bigger. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
paintbrush? I don't need a paintbrush. I can just read all of your hypocritical inanity from the past 2 days.

[Dirty Sanchez]

gotta love fanboys. they are the innernet equivalent of face painters :laugh:

[Ankf00]

Where do the chest painters and the grown-ass adult wearing sports jerseys fit in?

[grungex]

paintbrush? I don't need a paintbrush. I can just read all of your hypocritical inanity from the past 2 days.
This from the guy that has his lips fimrly planted on SB's anus, while fantasizing about fat men. Whatever you say, dude.

[grungex]

I'll be happy to discuss it with you there.

jono
And I'll be happy to discuss it with you here. Up until you made that statement, I had always felt you were the most level-headed, non partisan race fan in all of innerwebdom. Stating that a driver should deliberately crash out another, because you're unhappy with the penalties, has given me reason to think otherwise.

[jonovision_man]

And I'll be happy to discuss it with you here. Up until you made that statement, I had always felt you were the most level-headed, non partisan race fan in all of innerwebdom. Stating that a driver should deliberately crash out another, because you're unhappy with the penalties, has given me reason to think otherwise.

This is irritating, because those comments were made in the context of a bigger discussion on another forum. You haven't even quoted me yet here, so all anyone has to go by is your interpretation of what I said.

A poster said that if not for the championship, NH should park their cars.

I replied:


Absolutely agree.

I'd be tempted to sit Bourdais and Junky, championship or not. And if I'm Junky, AJ's getting put into the wall next race. Fight fire with fire.


Another poster correctly pointed out that is unacceptable, but went on to agree with the sentiment that if the series is not going to punish people then they are leaving themselves open to exactly that kind of response.

To which I replied:


You're right... but a series leaving PT out there after repeated infractions/probation/etc is also beyond unacceptable IMO.

I wouldn't seriously want competitors knocking each other out intentionally, but as you said here:

<the other poster's comments were here>

... exactly right.

I wouldn't blame Bruno, SB or NH one bit if they took matters into their own hands when nobody else has their back. I expect it'll look a lot less intentional, just aggression that may lead to incidents as opposed to actually putting the guy into the wall with intent. But all a consequence of CC's inaction.

As I said, discussing this here is not typically what is done since it's completely out of context, but I think I have captured more or less the spirit of my comments and how they were delivered.

Bottom line: if one of the NH competitors acts like PT did last race, I wouldn't blame them for it one bit, I can't imagine their frustration with the inaction of the series.

jono

[Dr. Corkski]

Everyone is "level-headed" until they pull their nose out of FaFu's crappy-infested mile-wide arse.

[NismoZ]

So, deliberately crashing out an opponent just because you've been PASSED is any different? The reason is far less important than the intent. That was no accident, it was a wreck.

[grungex]

Bottom line: if one of the NH competitors acts like PT did last race, I wouldn't blame them for it one bit, I can't imagine their frustration with the inaction of the series.
Yet you seem completely oblivious to the frustration when Seabass gets away with it time after time, year after year. You obviously have a double standard.

In context, your suggestion is still appalling.

[jonovision_man]

Yet you seem completely oblivious to the frustration when Seabass gets away with it time after time, year after year. You obviously have a double standard.

In all the various iterations of SB vs PT, I can't think of many where I'd blame Bourdais.

I'm sure it frustrates PT greatly to know how many championships he could have won if he hadn't driven like ... well, like PT.

jono

[grungex]

I agree fully with your second statement.

Surely you can remember examples of the first, along with examples of Seabass taking out someone else. Yet Seabass has never, ever gotten so much as a drivethrough.

[Insomniac]

Possibly.

But I tend to think of probation as a last chance before the ultimate punishment... ie. we could ban you right now but we're giving you one more chance, don't blow it.

Obviously CCWS doesn't see it that way, especially when they're down to 16 cars and the driver in question is Canadian and the next race is in Canada. :saywhat:

jono

In my opinion, you can't really accuse Cottman and company of being biased towards PT or being lenient with him. Before the season, when it was said he might be out, this board erupted blaming GF because he was too harsh on PT and not hard enough on Bourdais last year.

It's always an uneviable position to be a referee/umpire/steward. The people behind PT think it was a racing incident and he doesn't deserve any penalty. The people on the other side thing that the fat man should be parked. Cottman came down in the middle somewhere.

I'm personally surprised Bourdais wasn't hit with an undisclosed fine for initiating physical contact with another driver following an incident on track. That seems inconsistent IMO.

Also, I found this part from a recent david Phillips article interesting:


Micklewright makes a couple of valid points, namely that Bourdais did, in fact, initiate the physical contact with Tracy after the accident. Perhaps Cotman and Champ Car should have fined him an unspecified amount of money (as they did PT and Tagliani after their San Jose scrum), if for no other reason than to defuse the sense within Forsythe Championship Racing (and other camps within the paddock) that Bourdais is Champ Car’s fair-haired boy.

[grungex]

:thumbup:

[Insomniac]

It's possible he wouldn't have been punished for this latest blatantly idiotic move, but coupled with the post-race comments I doubt it. He's been fined for less in the past, remember the clown comments?

I think criticizing officials/referees/umpires/stewards pretty much universally gets you a fine. It's just a no-no.

[grungex]

On the one hand it was a tough call. On the other hand . . . not so much. I’m talking about the penalties Champ Car vice president of operations Tony Cotman meted-out to Paul Tracy yesterday in the wake of the contentious conclusion to Sunday’s Grand Prix of Denver Presented by Bridgestone.

<snip>

Predictably, Bourdais and Newman/Haas beat a path to Champ Car vice president of operations Tony Cotman’s door screaming “foul,” while Tracy and Forsythe Championship Racing said, in effect, quit your whining. By docking Tracy three championship points, fining him a cool $25,000 and imposing no sanctions on Bourdais, Cotman left no doubt about his view of the matter.

Let’s make one thing clear. Nobody, not Bourdais, not Newman/Haas nor 99.99% of those who observed the Denver crash accused Tracy of deliberately “taking out” his rival. Viewed in isolation, it was nothing more or less than one driver running out of talent trying to stay ahead of another driver. In other words, just another one of “them racin’ deals.”

<snip>

Predictably – and to his credit – Forsythe Championship Racing vice president Neil Micklewright staunchly defended his driver.“I believe that the penalty imposed to Paul Tracy for the last-lap incident is simply wrong and not appropriate, but we have to accept the decision of the series even if we don’t agree with it. That’s the nature of the sport,” he said in a statement released by the team. “We eagerly await the penalty that we believe should be handed to Sebastien Bourdais for his part in the incident, including running across a ‘hot’ track and initiating physical contact with our driver.”

Micklewright went on to praise Tracy for what he called an “incredible and heroic” drive into second place after being punted down the order at the first turn (ironically, by Tagliani). “It was the drive of a champion,” he said.Micklewright makes a couple of valid points, namely that Bourdais did, in fact, initiate the physical contact with Tracy after the accident. Perhaps Cotman and Champ Car should have fined him an unspecified amount of money (as they did PT and Tagliani after their San Jose scrum), if for no other reason than to defuse the sense within Forsythe Championship Racing (and other camps within the paddock) that Bourdais is Champ Car’s fair-haired boy.

And I wholeheartedly second most of Micklewright’s characterization of Tracy’s drive. It was nothing short of brilliant, until the last turn of the last lap, that is. For champions do more than just drive race cars fast. They do so while calculating – consciously or not – a myriad of factors involved in any situation. One of the factors involved on the last turn of the last lap at Denver is that Tracy was on probation. And that made all the difference when it came to assessing responsibility . . . and assigning penalties.

David Phillips-SpeedTV (http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/31133/)

[Ankf00]

if for no other reason than to defuse the sense within Forsythe Championship Racing (and other camps within the paddock) that Bourdais is Champ Car’s fair-haired boy.

So basically Bourdais has usurped FaFu's former crown-bearing position in the CCWS palace?


Yet you seem completely oblivious to the frustration when Seabass gets away with it time after time, year after year. You obviously have a double standard. and therein lies the problem, you're pissy over Bourdais because he has supplanted FaFu as "the great one," and the frenchmen's past actions. Therefore FaFu can do no wrong, everything's a racing incident with him, all his wrecks are "almost" misses, if someone squeezed him they should've known better and given him room, if someone gives him room they should've known better and squeezed him, no, better yet, they should've gotten off the throttle and stopped racing altogether for P2 because they know FaFu will wreck his successor without blinking an eye just for an extra position.

First it's not FaFu's fault because he was just racing and why get in a car if you're not going to race? But then it's frenchie's fault because he was racing when he shoud've just been sitting there protecting his championship because it's everyone else's problem that FaFu is a tosser w/ minimal sense and self-restraint.

your logic will only fly in the mental vacuum of that other TF...

[Insomniac]

So, deliberately crashing out an opponent just because you've been PASSED is any different? The reason is far less important than the intent. That was no accident, it was a wreck.

This is interesting. Obviously no one can get into PT's head, but I hope it wasn't deliberate. In that case, it's horrible sportsmanship and quite sad for a driver that I've watched closely since his Penske days. Maybe I don't see it as deliberate because I'm a fan or don't want to believe he'd do that. I mean, I guess it goes back to what you mean by it. He was at the wheel and he did wreck (without the aid of a mechanical failure), so his actions to control the car were deliberate, but were his intentions deliberate in taking Bourdais put? I hope not, and believe they weren't. It's unsportsmanlike and dirty, and there should be no room for people who race like that in ChampCar.

[Insomniac]

In all the various iterations of SB vs PT, I can't think of many where I'd blame Bourdais.

I'm sure it frustrates PT greatly to know how many championships he could have won if he hadn't driven like ... well, like PT.

jono

Not saying PT doesn't cause his fair share, but he did take PT out in Monterrey, with PT giving as much room as he could without actually going on the grass. Someone would have to refresh my memory on Toronto. I know PT lost half his wing to SB, but can't recall if that's because he hit SB or if SB chopped across it blocking. And I think Milwaukee, but there, didn't PT not follow some procedure before pitting?

I think Bourdais races just as hard as PT does, and to claim (which I'm not saying you do) that he is some clean, superior driver is nuts. He's just better at keeping his nose clean (whether that is luck, better starting position, or whatever, he just is). I mean, he went around the outside of the last turn in a turn where you normally pass underneath. That is hard/aggresive racing. I sure wouldn't want it any other way (a.k.a. parades).

[Ankf00]

I don't think it's intentional either. But he said it himself, he has nothing to lose and Bourdais has a championship to lose, so what's the harm of attemping high-risk maneuvers when the worst that can happen is you ruin your enemy's championship chase?