Denver Penalties Poll

[nrc]

Ok, lots of passionate verbage on both sides for and agin Tracy. I hate polls that put words in your mouth so I tried to keep it general. Feel free to elucidate below.

[cameraman]

If he hadn't already been on probation I doubt that they would have done anything but he was on probation so....

[Lizzerd]

Some say that PT made an error in judgement (I agree). Some say that SB gave him room to make the move (I agree). Overall blame for the coming together should be on PT, IMHO, but in the end, I agree with cameraman. If he wasn't already on probation, no penalty would have been levied.

[Gnam]

A penalty's fine, but 25k? Leave a playa somethin' to roll with. Damn!

[cameraman]

Ever seen the man's boat? Not feeling too broken up for him myself.

[racer2c]

About right.

[theunions]

Ever seen the man's boat? Not feeling too broken up for him myself.

And yet he complains publically about Nextel Cup rookie drivers being able to afford their own private jets...

[meadors]

I've always been rather neutral about PT, but have come to enjoy his in your face 'tude. That said, I think his attitude got him in trouble this time, and he is getting a little too cocky. I would have sat him out for one race, just to show some consistancy in the application of the rules. Maybe the fine was enough in most cases, but the way PT scoffed about them not being "able" to sit him out would have been cause to do it.

[grungex]

Unless a strong case could be made that his statements were harmful to the series, to increase his punishment because of said statements would be in direct opposition to the goal of evenhandedness. As it is, there is already a strong perception of bias.

[meadors]

You got a good point there. Maybe my thinking does go against evenhandedness, but on the other hand verbally or inverbally he is showing he has no respect for the rules and that he is beyond reproach.
Kind of like telling the judge who is saying you are in contempt of court that you also think he is an **d**l**

[Indy]

Perhaps a bit light, considering the probation, but close enough.

I think the statements post race should not factor into the decision, but I am sure they will cause him to experience intense scrutiny from this point forward. Not smart.

[Insomniac]

I think it's right. I think normally it would've been written off as a racing deal. He's on probation the punishment should be higher than normal. Also, if the stewards felt it was too much, they should warn him another incident like that and he gets a more severe punishment.

[Insomniac]

I've always been rather neutral about PT, but have come to enjoy his in your face 'tude. That said, I think his attitude got him in trouble this time, and he is getting a little too cocky. I would have sat him out for one race, just to show some consistancy in the application of the rules. Maybe the fine was enough in most cases, but the way PT scoffed about them not being "able" to sit him out would have been cause to do it.

He has to show them who's the boss applesauce. :)

[Insomniac]

Unless a strong case could be made that his statements were harmful to the series, to increase his punishment because of said statements would be in direct opposition to the goal of evenhandedness. As it is, there is already a strong perception of bias.

By that logic, he should just rip everyone and crash and start fights. The publicity absolutely benefits the series.

[grungex]

That is not the least bit logical.

[Ankf00]

Unless a strong case could be made that his statements were harmful to the series, to increase his punishment because of said statements would be in direct opposition to the goal of evenhandedness. as someone said above, call out the power/abilities of those managing and you're ****ing no one but yourself. How does punishing him for his "I'm beyond reproach" statements affect the impartiality of management? The only thing it does is wet fanboy panties. If he doesn't want to be penalized, he shouldn't be so brazen after causing a wreck, nor should he brag about how management can't touch him. He deserves a verbal lashing for the latter.


As it is, there is already a strong perception of bias.mainly amongst the flock of ,,,. The man pulls a boneheaded move while on probation. Admits publicly that he doesn't GAF about any of it now or in the future. Brags about how he has nothing to lose and his rival needs to be the cautious one for precisely that reason. He only receives an extra race of probation as a result?

NHR bias is the last thing you can bitch about as a result.

If you get a speeding ticket, ok, if you get 3 or 4 in a year, there's penalties. You go in front of the judge with a decade long list of incidents, scoff at this year's incidents & ensuing penalties in front of the judge, he bends you over. This is what happens when you're a repeat offender and then brag about it, forget just being contrite. Last year PT got hosed a couple of times, but that was last year. This year it's anything but.

[grungex]

wet your panties and those of every other fanboy

mainly amongst the flock of ,,,.

:rolleyes:

[chop456]

Love hurts. :gomer:

[Ankf00]

Love hurts. :gomer:
Love scars. :gomer: :D

[grungex]

Love stinks. :p

[nrc]

Brags about how he has nothing to lose and his rival needs to be the cautious one for precisely that reason.That's a fact of life anytime a championship contender goes wheel to wheel with someone with nothing to lose but a fight for position. I've heard it said thousands of times and nobody has ever gotten their panties in a bunch over it.

[Insomniac]

That is not the least bit logical.

Neither is weighing whether his statements are beneficial or harmful to the series. It's whether or not those statements are in violation of the rules.

[Ankf00]

That's a fact of life anytime a championship contender goes wheel to wheel with someone with nothing to lose but a fight for position. I've heard it said thousands of times and nobody has ever gotten their panties in a bunch over it.
Except for the fact FaFu has a proven track record of punting people w/ reckless abandon. It can't work both ways, he doesn't get to say "that's racing," while at the same time bragging about how Bourdais has it coming.

[grungex]

Neither is weighing whether his statements are beneficial or harmful to the series. It's whether or not those statements are in violation of the rules.
Which is exactly what I meant in my original post -- if the statements were detrimental to the series then they could be a rules violation. If not, they are irrelevant, albeit unwise. Your extrapolation and flip, however, was in no way a logical corollary to my statement.

[Insomniac]

Except for the fact FaFu has a proven track record of punting people w/ reckless abandon. It can't work both ways, he doesn't get to say "that's racing," while at the same time bragging about how Bourdais has it coming.

SB has been in the series for almost four years and he has had his share of incidents. I can think back as far as Germany when he and Mario were driving on grass.

[grungex]

Here's an interesting post from Neil:



The press release is a verbatim reproduction of my own comments and feelings.The failure to achieve a 2nd place finish at Denver was, in fact, a crushing blow for everyone on the Team, particularly given the sterling efforts of PT and his crew after the first corner mis-hap. That said, had PT not tried to keep his 2nd place, on the last corner of the last lap, I would have slapped him myself. Only in extraordinary circumstances will we (PT and Forsythe Racing in general) settle for anything less than the best we can do. None of us felt that 3rd was the best we could do.

I would not change anything about PT's driving style or aggressiveness. Absolutely, he makes some mistakes, and San Jose was just plain boneheaded, but to change even one iota of PT would be to lose all of him. He's too good to lose.

You speculated in your note about the outcome of the race in the event that PT had backed off or settled for 3rd place. I wonder what the outcome would have been if SB had backed off and settled for 3rd place. Clearly, SB is way ahead in the Championship and finishing 3rd instead of 2nd would only have helped his Championship aspirations. I see no reason that either one should settle for less than they think they can achieve, although one of them clearly had more to lose. We all make choices and live with their consequences.

In closing, I would like to say that I think SB is a fabulously talented driver and as such, I have the utmost respect for his talent. However, he does seem to presume that his mere presence on the race track is akin to a God given right to be allowed to pass by any car he sees ahead. It doesn't work like that.

Neil M.
Long Live ChampCar

:thumbup: :thumbup:

[Insomniac]

Which is exactly what I meant in my original post -- if the statements were detrimental to the series then they could be a rules violation. If not, they are irrelevant, albeit unwise. Your extrapolation and flip, however, was in no way a logical corollary to my statement.

Saying you can do whatever you want is detrimental. It undermines the stewards and makes a mockery of the rules. It's not a violation of rules AFAIK.

It's also good PR since now they have a "bad boy" who stirs up trouble and throws out sound bites the media eat up.

[chop456]

I can think back as far as Germany when he and Mario were driving on grass.

That was Tomas Enge.

[grungex]

It was Mario. Both were blocking the crap out of each other, but only Mario was penalized. Hmmm.

[Insomniac]

It was Mario. Both were blocking the crap out of each other, but only Mario was penalized. Hmmm.

Bourdais was penalized too. They got 5s or something added to pit stops.

[grungex]

I don't think so. Pit stop times:

Sebastien Bourdais
39.813
40.903
41.149
41.046
39.515

Mario Dominguez
40.639
41.094
1:05.440
40.840
38.991


Bourdais’ chief competition came from the dueling Mexicans, Dominguez and Jourdain, each of whom recovered from penalties to challenge for the win before falling short. Jourdain was given a 15-second delay for causing a pit-lane accident that eliminated Patrick Lemarie on Lap 27, but he was able to work his way back into contention with the help of a Lap 83 yellow for debris.

By that time, Dominguez had also been penalized. The 26-year old, who has shown dramatically improved form in 2003, took the lead for the first time on the 35th lap. But in his zeal to keep the top spot, Dominguez resorted to weaving tactics, several times nearly putting Bourdais into the inside wall on the pit straight.

On Lap 55, Champ Car officials issued the Herdez Competition Team a warning for excessive blocking, and when the field pitted at the end of the third 27-lap stint on Lap 81 – with Dominguez still in the lead – he was held for an additional five seconds by a CART official for continued blocking.

[Insomniac]

I don't think so.

That's what I get for going by my memory. :)

[Brian_R]

Here's an interesting post from Neil:



:thumbup: :thumbup:

Neil calls it like everyone sees it :) :thumbup:

[Ankf00]

Neil calls it like everyone sees it :) :thumbup:
:laugh: not according to the poll up above.

[extramundane]

Neil calls it like,,, everyone,,, sees,,, it :) :thumbup:

Fixed it for you.

[grungex]

That's what I get for going by my memory. :)
At least you have a memory... :D

[Ed_Severson]

I'd have to agree with Micklewright here.

After having seen the video, there's no doubt about the fact that Tracy lost it at the surface change going into the last corner. He was not going to make the corner after that, whether Bourdais was there or not. On the other hand, it's not as if he drove in like a bat out of hell ... it was a legitimate move for position, and he just made a mistake on a part of the track he may not have actually driven all weekend. It could have happened to any driver on any lap; it just so happens that it happened to Tracy on the last lap, with Bourdais right in front. No biggie.

If Tracy wasn't on probation, that goes down as a racing incident and nothing else. Since he was on probation, he was assessed a penalty, but not one that would've been consistent with a ruling that Tracy took an unjustifiable risk. And again, as I mentioned a few days ago, it's possible that some of this penalty is the result of Tracy's earlier mixup with Dominguez (which I still haven't seen, so I could be wrong about that).

[Turbodog]

You go in front of the judge with a decade long list of incidents, scoff at this year's incidents & ensuing penalties in front of the judge, he bends you over. .



I bet the judges takes notes also ;)


LOL@ bend you over :gomer: