Any chemists here...?

[oddlycalm]

The Register loves to stir the pot, but they published an article that basically holds that practical binary liquid bombs are a movie plot fantasy, not reality. Anyone know enough on the subject to comment? Anyone want to make up a good story?
Binary liquid explosives; movie fantasy or reality? (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/)

oc

[G.]

The Register doesn't write at a 6th grade level. :thumbup: That's about all that I know.

[racer2c]

"You won't hear about those fellows until it's too late. Our official protectors and deciders trumpet the fools they catch because they haven't got a handle on the people we should really be afraid of. They make policy based on foibles and follies, and Hollywood plots."

:thumdown: I question the validity of this statement.

[Ankf00]

The Register loves to stir the pot, but they published an article that basically holds that practical binary liquid bombs are a movie plot fantasy, not reality. Anyone know enough on the subject to comment? Anyone want to make up a good story?
Binary liquid explosives; movie fantasy or reality? (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/17/flying_toilet_terror_labs/)

oc
McGyver does it. :gomer:

[racermike]

I used to in Chemistry in HS like to put magnesium on that little spatula, and put over the bunson burner.

[nrc]

The story is a red herring. Whether or not binary liquid explosives are practical doesn't change the fact that liquid explosives can and have been hidden in carry on items in sufficient quantity to do real damage. It's a very real threat. We can develop a way to deal with it or sit around waiting for terrorists to develop it and then point fingers once it happens.

[Ankf00]

The story is a red herring. Whether or not binary liquid explosives are practical doesn't change the fact that liquid explosives can and have been hidden in carry on items in sufficient quantity to do real damage. It's a very real threat. We can develop a way to deal with it or sit around waiting for terrorists to develop it and then point fingures once it happens.
We just need to clone 1 Jack Bauer for every airport & airplane in the world. :cool:

[dando]

Die Hard 3, man. ;)

-Kevin

[cameraman]

Concentrated hydrogen peroxide - check
Stock sulfuric acid - check
Acetone - check
Coldroom stir plates, filtration equipment, vacuum drying gear - check x3

Well hell, you mean I have been working in a bomb lab for the last 20 years without knowing it?

Just about every single lab here has all of those reagents in liter+ quantities and all the gear. It just never occurred to any of us that we could build bombs too :rolleyes: Generally we try to avoid blowing **** up.

Nice of the Reg to link to the paper with the recipe & instructions. Now anybody here can do it :shakehead

[eiregosod]

Ramzai Yousef did set off one of these bombs in an airplane before.

[eiregosod]

Nice of the Reg to link to the paper with the recipe & instructions. Now anybody here can do it :shakehead

sulphuric acid & acetone can be sourced from anywhere



I like this line from The Register :D

"Or at least that's what we're hearing, and loudly, through the mainstream media and its legions of so-called "terrorism experts." But what do these experts know about chemistry? Less than they know about lobbying for Homeland Security pork, which is what most of them do for a living"

:laugh:

[cameraman]

30% hydrogen peroxide is as common as dirt in laboratories.

btw Yousef used at nitroglycerin based bomb. Not this stuff.

[eiregosod]

30% hydrogen peroxide is as common as dirt in laboratories.

btw Yousef used at nitroglycerin based bomb. Not this stuff.

I post corrected then. *hangs head in shame*

[cameraman]

The Reg is correct in that it would be rather difficult to make the stuff in an airplane. Acetone stinks and the fumes from stock sulfuric acid will get your attention in a hurry. I can't imagine anyone having them open in an aircraft cabin for the hours it would take the reaction to occur without somebody, hell everybody, noticing. If this really was their plan, these guys are not the brightest lights out there. Although if you mixed them together rapidly you would have a boiling, noxiously fuming, highly corrosive mess on your hands.

[eiregosod]

The Reg is correct in that it would be rather difficult to make the stuff in an airplane. Acetone stinks and the fumes from stock sulfuric acid will get your attention in a hurry. I can't imagine anyone having them open in an aircraft cabin for the hours it would take the reaction to occur without somebody, hell everybody, noticing. If this really was their plan, these guys are not the brightest lights out there. Although if you mixed them together rapidly you would have a boiling, noxiously fuming, highly corrosive mess on your hands.

The guy calling the shots on the UK end , Dr. John Reid, was talking of 'mass murder on an unimaginable scale'.

[cameraman]

Their goal was to bring down a dozen or more planes at once, that fits the "mass murder" bill quite nicely.

That does not mean that their plan was guaranteed to work.


The real problem with all this is the advertising of the technique. Here is a cheap and easy way to make enough of a potent high explosive to take out a city block. Now a bunch of people who otherwise would have never known to look for a paper on chemical decomposition have the instructions for making a serious high explosive.

There are many more dumb terrorists than there are smart ones. Making life easier for the dumb ones isn't too bright.

[racer2c]

Once the plane was in the air they could convey their intentions and have all the time they required. I don't see why it would be a race against time or a situation where they need to hide aroma’s until they were ready. That's Hollywood.

[dando]

Once the plane was in the air they could convey their intentions and have all the time they required. I don't see why it would be a race against time or a situation where they need to hide aroma’s until they were ready. That's Hollywood.
Air Marshall?

-Kevin

[racer2c]

Air Marshall?

-Kevin


One would hope. Do they have them on all international flights now?

I have a cousin who has 15 years as a small town police officer. After 9/11 he had a calling to be an air marshall but didn't make the cut. That tells me that the ones who made it are damn good. Which is reassuring. But you never know if they are there or not.

[dando]

One would hope. Do they have them on all international flights now?

I have a cousin who has 15 years as a small town police officer. After 9/11 he had a calling to be an air marshall but didn't make the cut. That tells me that the ones who made it are damn good. Which is reassuring. But you never know if they are there or not.
Supposedly domestic airlines were targetted, so one would assume that air marshalls would be on the planes. Wasn't there an air marshall on the plane in Flightplan? :gomer:

-Kevin

[racer2c]

Supposedly domestic airlines were targetted, so one would assume that air marshalls would be on the planes. Wasn't there an air marshall on the plane in Flightplan? :gomer:

-Kevin

:D

/sidebar. There is an actor in that movie named Sean Bean. Now logically speaking his name should be pronounced phonetically, Seen Bean, or Shawn Bawn not Shawn Bean. Silly English language. And what's with the name Sean anyway? I hate names without consonants. Sean isn't a name it's a sound. :gomer:

[eiregosod]

:D

/sidebar. There is an actor in that movie named Sean Bean. Now logically speaking his name should be pronounced phonetically, Seen Bean, or Shawn Bawn not Shawn Bean. Silly English language. And what's with the name Sean anyway? I hate names without consonants. Sean isn't a name it's a sound. :gomer:

*ahem* *cough* , you'd need to go into gaelic pronounciaion of the word 'Seán' to get your answer.

*cough*


:D

[racer2c]

*ahem* *cough* , you'd need to go into gaelic pronounciaion of the word 'Seán' to get your answer.

*cough*


:D

Gaylick. That's not right either. :thumdown:

I apologize for dumping in your thread OC. Sorry. :(

[Ankf00]

http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=westmall&Number=4413922&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=all

^^^ bunch of political crap but a couple of chemist dudes giving their thoughts...

[TravelGal]

There are many more dumb terrorists than there are smart ones. Making life easier for the dumb ones isn't too bright.

Unfortunately, there are many more dumb newspaper people than there are smart ones also.

[ChampcarShark]

OT


http://forums.hornfans.com/php/wwwthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=westmall&Number=4413922&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=all

^^^ bunch of political crap but a couple of chemist dudes giving their thoughts...


Of course the Dept. of Homeland Security reflexively bans business travelers from bringing toothpaste on board, once again insuring us against yesterday's (wildly exaggerated) threat and doing nothing to really make us safer.

This reminds me of my IT department, they are trying to prevent viruses from entering the system by blocking and restricting our internet access, while the network is wide open at the server level.

Back on Topic. As long as mcGyver does not turn into a terrorist I feel safe taking a flight anywhere inthe world.

[oddlycalm]

Whether or not binary liquid explosives are practical doesn't change the fact that liquid explosives can and have been hidden in carry on items in sufficient quantity to do real damage. I'm appalled that all liquids haven't been banned, along with most other items, since the hijacking spree in the 1970's. There are a host of practical and general security reasons to get rid of all the crap people insist on dragging onto a plane, and that would solve the issue for good. Airlines can either stock the plane with sufficient fluids or suffer a loss of customers.

My interest in the article was specific to whether the alleged plot was actually real.

oc