Big boy football

[nrc]

Four days to kickoff. Are you ready for some football? :D

[ferrarigod]

nfl = irl of football. :gomer:

[RaceGrrl]

Roethlisberger isn't ready for some football.

What's it gonna be next month? Wisdom tooth surgery?

[nrc]

nfl = irl of football. :gomer:
Faster, harder, better. Explain the logic underlying your premise?

[Stu]

Faster, harder, better. Explain the logic underlying your premise?

i went to a college game on saturday.

made me realize why it was only the 2nd college game ive been to in my entire life. :thumdown:

[Stu]

http://www.kusi.com/home/3815221.html

Don't worry all you Bungle fans, this time its only a FORMER Bengal in trouble with the law. :rofl:

[Insomniac]

Four days to kickoff. Are you ready for some football? :D

I definitely am. Been watching the Patriots all off-season and would like to see them actually play a game and see how they look.

Any interest to do an OC Suicide Pool for bragging rights on OC? :)

I'd volunteer to keep track. For those who don't know, it's pretty simple. You choose one team each week to win. If they win, you stay in and if they lose, you are out. You can't pick the same team more than once. Last man or woman standing wins.

[WickerBill]

I'm in, sleep-deprived dude!


Go Broncos

[racer2c]

I can't wait to watch the Redskins lose all year! :thumbup:

[spinner26]

I prefer college and minor league sports to the "pro" levels as the kids play harder and want to be there.

The "pro athletes" act as though you /we, the fans owe them something, they are WAY overpaid and do not go 100%. I'll use T.O. as just one example.

[WickerBill]

Two words... Marcus Vick....


I think Peyton Manning, Carson Palmer, Marvin Harrison, Daunte Culpepper, Drew Brees, and 85-90% of the rest of the guys in the NFL might disagree with your overarching assessment....

[devilmaster]

I think I'm ready for another rollercoaster season of Clay Ford's personal plaything....

although it just seems wrong to put 'big boy football' and his team in the same sentence....

[ferrarigod]

Faster, harder, better. Explain the logic underlying your premise?

well i put a gomer.....but i do like ncaa more. nfl is constantly a predictable 24-17 score. Seems every game is in that range. Everything is too even for me. I don't like the salary caps and the way it leaves everyone so equal.

I also feel no indentification with an NFL team. The college you go to, or your family went to is why you cheer, I don't think there is a great deal of care for NFL teams unless you are in Green Bay, Buffalo or Cleveland. Plus college games are so much fun to go to. The crowd is younger, drunken, and loud as hell. It just seems like everyond in the stadium has something on the line.

There is a reason that college stadiums are larger and constantly filled to capacity. Its just my cup of tea. Just joking about the IRL thing, didn't ya notice the gomerrrrrr???

[Ankf00]

Might as well rename the NFL "The Bill Walsh League," since only a handful of teams have the balls & creativity to move beyond the Walsh Offense.

Stu: you went to see Bowling Green vs. Wisky, that's like me condemning the entire league after seeing Lions @ Browns :gomer: (sorry Steve...)

and parity blows, "yay, we're all average! That's SUPER!" :p And sometimes it is nice to see players who do make mistakes...

It's like F1, yea it's the best and the baddest, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the most action packed or entertaining, well, beyond empowering you to dish even more Cleveland smack, if more is even humanly possible. So I guess that in itself is quite the redeeming quality.





That said, Eli's gonna stomp a mudhole in all y'all this year :p w00t!!!1!!111one1oneone

[Stu]

Stu: you went to see Bowling Green vs. Wisky, that's like me condemning the entire league after seeing Lions @ Browns :gomer: (sorry Steve...)But thats how 90% of college football games are.

And the fact is, if I follow a small school they get no respect and likely get blown out a lot.

If I follow a big school, they win by 40 all but 2-3 times a year.

Obviously I'm exaggerating, but either way I'm asleep by the 2nd half.

[Ankf00]

After all the games I was switching between on Saturday, 90% is a gross overexaggeration, yes not every game is competitive, but with 7 networks showing games all day long, you can find at least 3-4 good ones every saturday if not more.

But then again, the final score isn't the only thing that keeps me interested in football.

[Dr. Corkski]

College football is pro football without a salary cap.

[jcollins28]

nfl = irl of football. :gomer:

Hmm guess you have never heard of something called the NCAA?

[Insomniac]

I prefer college and minor league sports to the "pro" levels as the kids play harder and want to be there.

The "pro athletes" act as though you /we, the fans owe them something, they are WAY overpaid and do not go 100%. I'll use T.O. as just one example.

That's a pretty wide brush and your example is T.O., that must've been a difficult name to come up with. How about half a teams worth of names (26 players)?

After watching college football this weekend, you can just see the level of competition and skill isn't even close. Ever wonder why no one runs the option in the NFL?

Plus, did anyone feel like the college games were longer when they're supposed to be shorter this year?

[Insomniac]

I think I'm ready for another rollercoaster season of Clay Ford's personal plaything....

With a new coach, I think it will be an interesting year in Detroit. Way too early to say, but I think they could slip into the playoffs given the division they play.

[Insomniac]

well i put a gomer.....but i do like ncaa more. nfl is constantly a predictable 24-17 score. Seems every game is in that range. Everything is too even for me. I don't like the salary caps and the way it leaves everyone so equal.

I also feel no indentification with an NFL team. The college you go to, or your family went to is why you cheer, I don't think there is a great deal of care for NFL teams unless you are in Green Bay, Buffalo or Cleveland. Plus college games are so much fun to go to. The crowd is younger, drunken, and loud as hell. It just seems like everyond in the stadium has something on the line.

There is a reason that college stadiums are larger and constantly filled to capacity. Its just my cup of tea. Just joking about the IRL thing, didn't ya notice the gomerrrrrr???

Those are a lot of good points about the atmosphere. I definitely agree there. A lot of NFL teams have rich, yuppie season ticket holders who dont get very excited like the die hard fans.

However, NFL teams have large followings mostly just based on the region they're in.

I don't know how anyone could feel the level of play is better at the college level though. A 24-17 NFL game will almost always have more excitement than a typical college blow IMO.

[Insomniac]

Might as well rename the NFL "The Bill Walsh League," since only a handful of teams have the balls & creativity to move beyond the Walsh Offense.

What??? There is no way that many teams run the west coast offense in the NFL. What do you want to see more of, the option?

[nrc]

What??? There is no way that many teams run the west coast offense in the NFL. What do you want to see more of, the option?

Run and shoot! :gomer:

[WickerBill]

Everyone who throws short passes is called west coast these days, and it is completely false. I can only think of a few teams running a true west coast offense this season... Lions, Seahawks, and (I'm assuming, with Norv Turner) San Francisco. The "west coast" thing that Atlanta, Denver, Houston, and New England run are west coast in name only; they resemble Walsh's offense in the same way Mountain Dew resembles Gatorade. Not necessarily worse, just different.

[nrc]

I prefer college and minor league sports to the "pro" levels as the kids play harder and want to be there.

The "pro athletes" act as though you /we, the fans owe them something, they are WAY overpaid and do not go 100%. I'll use T.O. as just one example.

I love college ball, but watching the NFL makes it clear that it is what it is - the best of the best.

I don't have any love for problem guys like T.O. There are very few guys in the NFL who are far enough above the norm that they can afford to continue creating those kinds of problems.

The counterpoint is guys like Carson Palmer. Palmer signed a huge deal back in December before his injury. He could have taken it easy and come back mid season or even next season. Instead he worked his butt off and he'll be out there on opening day.

[Insomniac]

Everyone who throws short passes is called west coast these days, and it is completely false. I can only think of a few teams running a true west coast offense this season... Lions, Seahawks, and (I'm assuming, with Norv Turner) San Francisco. The "west coast" thing that Atlanta, Denver, Houston, and New England run are west coast in name only; they resemble Walsh's offense in the same way Mountain Dew resembles Gatorade. Not necessarily worse, just different.

I can't even define New England's offense. They change it up week to week like their defense. I've seen them go west coast with the short passing, I've seen then do the power running and I've seen plenty of screens as well.

I'd put Tampa Bay (Gruden) and Green Bay (McCarthy) on the WCO list.

[Ankf00]

Half the league runs evolution of the Walsh WCO. Everyone's copied everyone else to the point where it's all the same.

The only differences you have are the teams running the vertical Gillman/Coryell WCO (completely unrelated to Walsh's offense he created in Cincinatti) like wherever Ernie Zampese is these days and with Detroit w/ Mike Martz. Dallas, NO, NE, NYG, Indy are some of the few others who don't run Walsh's WCO. And there's Norm Chow at Tennessee, he's made such a huge leap from Walsh that Chow gets a free pass.

There is offensive variety that extends beyond the option you know...

The Gillman/Coryell WCO is still used for one, just as some in the NFL use it
Dan Hawkins & Chris Pederson's Chamilion offense at CU & Boise
Mike Leach's Air Raid @ Tx Tech
Lee Hays power running modification to the Air Raid at Baylor
Rich Rodriguez's spread from Clemson, lots of dual barrel shotgun, an example of a run-heavy spread
Randy Hayes own spread at Northwestern
Urban's spread option @ UF, still used by Utah, copied by Gary Crowton at Oregon
LaVel Edwards' modification of Walsh's WCO which has netted a national title & a heisman winner and kind of the inbetween between a Waslh O & Norm Chow
Texas' zone-read spread w/ the Indianapolis Colts passing offense
Penn State pretty much copied Texas' offense offseason before last
Bobby Petrino's spread with heavy use of I-formation running @ louisville
John L Smith took whatever he learned from his time w/ Petrino at L-ville to Michigan State
OU was consistently lined up 4 wide with a between the tackles running game with Chuck Long
Houston Nutt has developed his own mobile qb spread since he left Boise for Arky
Spurrier's Fun n Gun
Norm Chow's vertical un-Walsh WCO is still used at USC
Joe Tiller was one of the first spread passing guys at Purdue 10+ years ago
Hawaii is the homeland of washed up 80's Run & Shoot NFL coaches, TIMMY!!! (chang)
Weis runs NE's offense at ND

Yet you still have some teams (ones with no talent) using the option, the veer, wing t. Miss St, NU, UCLA running various Walsh WCOs

In the NFL you have everyone tweaking the Walsh WCO b/c they're too chicken to innovate or try anything new. It's the same halfback dive on 1st & 2nd with the typical down & distance call on 3rd. The salary cap drives & perpetuates this homogenization. WR's just need to be big so they can handle the hits and get YAC, speed, ups, gaps, not so critical, thus why T.O. is such a huge star. His size is everything. Timing is critical but timing on 18 yard comebacks in the Gillman WCO is more impressive. Walsh created his WCO because he had a qb with no arm. And in the salary cap "parity means everyone wins!" NFL the WCO factors in perfectly, your FA's come in and already know the offense since it's so prevalent in the league.

As NRC said, NFL == faster, better, harder, but more innovative, ballsy, or diverse it most certainly is not.

I like Indy & NE spread w/ free use of shotgun, out of the box thinking.


edit: Norv Turner runs the Gillman/Coryell WCO, learned it under Zampese & Martz learned it under him.

[Ankf00]

I love college ball, but watching the NFL makes it clear that it is what it is - the best of the best. I agree, but for entertainment value I think it's F1 vs. Champ Car. Obviously most people disagree :) The Best vs. actual product on the track/field.


I don't have any love for problem guys like T.O. There are very few guys in the NFL who are far enough above the norm that they can afford to continue creating those kinds of problems.

The counterpoint is guys like Carson Palmer. Palmer signed a huge deal back in December before his injury. He could have taken it easy and come back mid season or even next season. Instead he worked his butt off and he'll be out there on opening day.

another issue I have with the league: Ray Lewis, Jamaal Lewis, Rae Carruth, Randy Moss, the Love Boat. Ray Lewis is involved in a double murder and he's the league's posterboy on defense that very season... :rolleyes:

[Dr. Corkski]

Ray Lewis is involved in a double murder and he's the league's posterboy on defense that very season... :rolleyes:But that was because Trent Dilfer sucks.

[devilmaster]

Everyone who throws short passes is called west coast these days, and it is completely false. I can only think of a few teams running a true west coast offense this season... Lions

Pffffft. shows how much you know. The Lions haven't run any type of offense since Millen got here. They ain't gonna start now. :gomer: ;)

[WickerBill]

Okay, good point dm, was assuming a Martz-style slant route/drop the ball to the back offense, but you could well be right.

:)

[Ankf00]

Martz runs a Walsh offense? :confused: I think you mixed it up WB.

What Martz runs was originally called the "west coast offense" b/c that's what the Chargers & San Diego State ran. The name was eventually, and inappropriately, applied to SF's Walsh offense. Think it has something to do w/ SI's Dr. Z & some AP wire report...

The only thing in common between Martz & Walsh is "WCO" in name (edit: and the emphasis of timing, but one is vertical w/ a spread, other the opposite)

[WickerBill]

He never said it was WCO, but when he was OC (not head coach so much) in StL, he was more true to the core principles of the WCO than most are today; those being timed routes, slants against zones, RB as primary receiver, and variable formations executing the same play.

If you are blinded by his time as head coach and his de-evolution into the chuck-it-and-hope style that more suited Bulger, go back and watch some of those 1999 games and notice how familiar a good deal of it looks.

From everything I've read on Kitna/Williams/Jones this preseason, it looks like Mike is heading back to quite a bit of that style.

I'm not saying he's Bill Walsh, or even that his 1999 offense would pass Walsh's muster, but when Atlanta is called "west coast", we need to start revisiting reality of what west coast means.

[Insomniac]

Rich Rodriguez's spread from Clemson, lots of dual barrel shotgun, an example of a run-heavy spread

Since he's coaching at my alma mater, Rich Rodriguez started the spread offense at Glanville State, moved to Tulane and then Clemson.

Everything else, may or may not be right, I don't pay that much attention to college football. :)

[Insomniac]

He never said it was WCO, but when he was OC (not head coach so much) in StL, he was more true to the core principles of the WCO than most are today; those being timed routes, slants against zones, RB as primary receiver, and variable formations executing the same play.

No doubt it relied on the same principles as the WCO, but it didn't rely on short passing. It was precise routes and timing. I believe Bill Belichick also said that he never ran the same play twice. It might look the same, but never is. The Patriots game plan in SB XXXVI was to beat up Marshall Faulk, jam the WRs and mess up the timing because Martz was unpredictable as far as what would happen given a formation.

[Ankf00]

you're right, I forgot about how Rodriguez conned the NFL into thinking Shaun King was a good quarterback :D

[Ankf00]

SI article from '99 while Martz is StL OC. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/dr_z/news/1999/10/28/inside_football/


But that's kid stuff compared to the way I feel about the term "West Coast Offense." I've belabored the subject many times before. But here it comes again, this time keyed by a very interesting conversation I had the other day with the current darling of the offensive coordinator set, St. Louis' Mike Martz, who has put together the NFL's most dynamic attack. We talked about the Real West Coast Offense, the one he coaches.

There are three practitioners of the Real West Coast Offense, three men whose roots go right back to the beginning -- to Sid Gillman of the San Diego Chargers in the 1960s, and before him, Francis (Shut-the-Gates-of-Mercy) Schmidt at Ohio State.

The current trio is composed of Martz, whose offense ranks second in the NFL; Washington's head coach and offensive coordinator Norv Turner , whose attack ranks first, six total yards ahead of Martz's offense; and Ernie Zampese, whose Patriots attack ranks No. 5 in the NFL in yardage. There is a very strong connection here, and it goes back to Gillman.

"I was a San Diego high school kid in those days," Martz says. "I used to love to sit in old Balboa Stadium and watch Gillman's offense at work. I mean, it was just so great to look at -- Lance Alworth and Gary Garrison, and John Hadl throwing the ball all over the place. Paul Lowe and Keith Lincoln running. It was an awesome experience."

Which brings us back to Mike Martz and the Real West Coast Offense, as practiced with much success in St.Louis and Washington and New England.

"I couldn't have had two better mentors than Ernie and Norv," Martz said the other day. "We talk all the time. Ernie's the guy who really expanded the system, who put a twist on it. He kept finding different ways to get guys the ball, off different formations. But certain basic principles still apply.

"It's such a timing-oriented system. You want to get the ball downfield, yes, but you want to get it out quickly, and the timing portion is critical. There are no shades of gray. You've got to run in and out of your breaks -- boom, like that -- and you've got to be exactly where you're supposed to be."

I congratulated him on the trade that brought in running back Marshall Faulk, who, in the last two weeks, has supplied a nice change of pace to an offense that was beginning to look one-dimensional in favor of the pass.

"That's another thing that's critical to the system," Martz says. "Power running. You've got to be able to run the ball when you go to a three-wide receiver set, and you've got to run with power. By that I mean behind zone blocking, which is a big departure from the San Francisco system. Theirs was man-blocking, with a lot of cut-blocks and misdirection. Ours is straight power. Not many people realize this, but if we hadn't have gotten Marshall we were prepared to go with another excellent zone-blocking runner, Robert Holcombe. It takes a certain type, a guy who can run with power, who's good at picking his way through. Stephen Davis is doing that in Washington now, and that's a big reason why their offense is so good. Terry Allen 's starting to come around in New England.

At first Walsh was quite upset by the misnomer. "Call it the Walsh Offense, or the Cincinnati Offense," he said, "but not the West Coast Offense. That's something completely different."

[Tim]

Another year of watching the Packers coming in last in the NFC north. As long as the Bears win it and not the Vikings I think I'll survive.

[Insomniac]

Ernie Zampese...yikes. There's a name I thought I'd never see. The guy who ruined Ben Coates' career...

[Insomniac]

you're right, I forgot about how Rodriguez conned the NFL into thinking Shaun King was a good quarterback :D

I blame Tony Dungy. :)

[Ankf00]

watching '94 CU vs. Mich, looks like there's a few names in this match-up that would pique Insomniac's interest ;)

[TKGAngel]

I'll be happy if the Bills finish at .500 for the year.

[Insomniac]

watching '94 CU vs. Mich, looks like there's a few names in this match-up that would pique Insomniac's interest ;)

I love Kordell Stewart, it's a shame he's no longer with Pittsburgh. :) The only other guy I can think of is Ty Law.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Another year of watching the Packers coming in last in the NFC north. As long as the Bears win it and not the Vikings I think I'll survive.

Yeah, because you know how Green Bay has been forever plagued with a bad team. :rolleyes:

[devilmaster]

Yeah, because you know how Green Bay has been forever plagued with a bad team. :rolleyes:

Hey ya! screw you Tim, I'm a Lions fan! http://www.mnsi.net/~smicalef/baghead.gif ;)

[Ankf00]

I love Kordell Stewart, it's a shame he's no longer with Pittsburgh. :) The only other guy I can think of is Ty Law.

Fauria's on the receiving end of a few of Kordell's passes to keep the comeback drive alive :)

[Sean O'Gorman]

Hey ya! screw you Tim, I'm a Lions fan! http://www.sportsinferno.com/forums/images/smilies/lions.gif ;)

And another thing Tim, what's so bad about the Vikings? Like you wouldn't go along with them if they invited you out on their bye week.

http://www.phatpimpclothing.com/hi/phatpimp/images/ex_party_smoot_new.jpg

[Insomniac]

Fauria's on the receiving end of a few of Kordell's passes to keep the comeback drive alive :)

Ahhh, I think he was a long time Seahawk before the Pats picked him up.

[Ankf00]

Texans picked up Ron Dayne :shakehead

[dando]

I saw it live and I've seen the replays, but there is no way in hell I could call this helmet-to-helmet. :saywhat: :irked: It was shoulder to helmet plain and simple. Plus, the notion of fining players for plays that didn't result in a penalty is bogus...exception being a play that is not witnessed directly.

-Kevin

[nrc]

Link (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2582288)

I saw it live and I've seen the replays, but there is no way in hell I could call this helmet-to-helmet. :saywhat: :irked: It was shoulder to helmet plain and simple. Plus, the notion of fining players for plays that didn't result in a penalty is bogus...exception being a play that is not witnessed directly.
Your link wasn't visible because it had no text in it.

I think the league should be free to fine players if there is a serious oversight by the officials.

If they take a look at the hit on Green I don't see them doing anything. Green waited until the last second to start his slide, Geathers was already coming forward and then he gets a push. He's a defensive end, not an acrobat.

http://assets.bengals.com/assets/default/gallery060910-12.jpg

[Insomniac]

Text (http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2582288)

I saw it live and I've seen the replays, but there is no way in hell I could call this helmet-to-helmet. :saywhat: :irked: It was shoulder to helmet plain and simple. Plus, the notion of fining players for plays that didn't result in a penalty is bogus...exception being a play that is not witnessed directly.

-Kevin

It was such a violent collision, I thought that has to be a fine. But then playing it back, it looks like the guy started to lower his shoulder just before or right as Green went to slide. I think it was made worse by the Chiefs player shoving him down and towards Green. I'm glad he was only knocked out/concussed.

[nrc]

NFL sez no foul, no fine. Good to see the NFL show some sense rather than just reflexively "protecting the quarterback". QBs need to start their slide before contact is imminent.


Anderson said a review of the play in Kansas City showed Green started "a late slide" as Geathers prepared to tackle him. At the same time, Geathers was blocked in the back by a Chiefs player, was no longer in control of his body and twisted in order to avoid driving his helmet into Green or hitting him helmet-to-helmet.

http://sports.myway.com/news/09132006/v9356.html

[Insomniac]

NFL sez no foul, no fine. Good to see the NFL show some sense rather than just reflexively "protecting the quarterback". QBs need to start their slide before contact is imminent.

http://sports.myway.com/news/09132006/v9356.html

I'm glad to hear this. The intent was for the QB to be able to give up, not get every last yard and avoid the hit.

[dando]

Your link wasn't visible because it had no text in it.


I must have hit a space or something to remove the linkage, as the text for images and linkies remain highlighted with the new boardware. Also, I noticed that I can no longer edit that post. Did the time for editing posts become shorter with the update?

My post was regarding a column by John Clayton, where he referred to the contact as head-to-head. Interstingly, the head-to-head references have since been removed:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2582288

:saywhat:

Glad to see the NFL made the right call on this play. I still don't think fines should be levied on plays like this that are clearly seen by the refs and no call is made. If they take action against the player, the ref should be given a black mark as well.

-Kevin

[racermike]

Again .. this season is a waste of everyones time now :D :D

Just give us the Lombardi Trophy RIGHT now!

http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/839bfd69-8632-4da8-8887-c48d1e4a2cb6.jpg

[Tony George]

AFC>>NFC Deal with it, Jabronis. :D

[Insomniac]

Again .. this season is a waste of everyones time now :D :D

Just give us the Lombardi Trophy RIGHT now!

http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/839bfd69-8632-4da8-8887-c48d1e4a2cb6.jpg

It's a gret pick up, but it's only Week 2. Wait to make sure Deion Branch gets through the season. :)

[Ankf00]

All your Lombardi Trophy are belong to us.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y155/insectwarfare/Tecmo_super_bowl0000.gif

[dando]

Again .. this season is a waste of everyones time now :D :D

Just give us the Lombardi Trophy RIGHT now!



This after you just beat the Lions 9-6? :saywhat: Better be concerned about that OL. This weekend's litmus test vs. the Cards should be interesting.

-Kevin

[rabbit]

This after you just beat the Lions 9-6? :saywhat: Better be concerned about that OL. This weekend's litmus test vs. the Cards should be interesting.

-Kevin

[Roy Williams logic]In all fairness, Seattle almost scored 43 points.[/Roy Williams logic]

[dando]

[Roy Williams logic]In all fairness, Seattle almost scored 43 points.[/Roy Williams logic]

And The OSU almost beat UT last year. ;)

-Kevin

[Dirty Sanchez]

Again .. this season is a waste of everyones time now

Just give us the Lombardi Trophy RIGHT now!

http://espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/839bfd69-8632-4da8-8887-c48d1e4a2cb6.jpgoooops :gomer: :tony: :gomer:

[Ed_Severson]

http://www.sneakmove.com/uploaded_images/super_bowl_shuffle-773485.jpg

[racermike]

http://www.sneakmove.com/uploaded_images/super_bowl_shuffle-773485.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5cWj1jdZmw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBx42qIvCUk