ALMS vs. Grand Am Times

[chop456]

Qualifying Times - Miller Motorsports Park - Tooele, Utah
ALMS P1 Frank Biela Audi R10 2:21.553
ALMS GT1 - Tomas Enge Aston Martin DBR9 2:34.953
Grand-Am Scott Pruett Riley Lexus 2:37.998

Track announcer:

"And it's another track record! Audi revolutionizes sports car racing...again!"

vs.

"Look at him go - these cars sure are...uh...affordable, and......there's lots of them! They run into each other quite a bit, too!"

"Prototype". :laugh:

Discuss. ;)

[nissan gtp]

numbers tell the storyl :D

nascar-ization :thumdown:

[JT265]

You guys are downright disgusting!!!! :mad:


How could you in all fairness and honesty denigrate the motives and ambition of the omnipotent France family, and especially those of the Grand American?

You do realize don't you that the Grand American is the future of motorsports in this country, yea the world in fact. This is why it is called the Grand American.

Motorsport isn't about how fast you can go, it's NOT about engineering, it certainly doesn't begin to describe any sort of advancement in speed or aerodynamics you fools!!!! :mad:

It's all about the Grand American. Pay attention!






















:laugh: :laugh:

[matthole]

Grnad Sham is crap. Garbage. Calling those pigotypes 'sportscars' isn't just wrong, it's fraud.

Hope the France fambly goes broke propping that garbage up. :thumbup: The 'crowds' they attract are earl-riffic!

It is a good place for Cheever to be kept away from the general population though. :laugh:

[JT265]

Grnad Sham is crap. Garbage. Calling those pigotypes 'sportscars' isn't just wrong, it's fraud.

Hope the France fambly goes broke propping that garbage up. :thumbup: The 'crowds' they attract are earl-riffic!

It is a good place for Cheever to be kept away from the general population though. :laugh:

See? There's a silver lining behind any cloud! :cool:

[Sean O'Gorman]

The fact that you stated "Audi wins again" and made no mention of the drivers just shows how irrelevent the actual racing is in ALMS. Its a damn parade. BORING.

[matthole]

The fact that you stated "Audi wins again" and made no mention of the drivers just shows how irrelevent the actual racing is in ALMS. Its a damn parade. BORING.

You obviously didn't see the race. :gomer: :rolleyes:


Even if your outrageous lies had any merit (which they don't), none of that changes the FACT that Grand Scam is 169% crap. Garbage. Worthless. Rubbish. An abomination. Fred Nation. An affront to decency.


Did I mention that Grand Sham sucks? :saywhat: :thumbup:

[JT265]

The fact that you stated "Audi wins again" and made no mention of the drivers just shows how irrelevent the actual racing is in ALMS. Its a damn parade. BORING.


Great post SeanO, spot on!!! :thumbup:

You see, this has always been my bitch about the space program, they focus waaay too much on technology instead of the drivers. Why, I bet you can't even name the last 10 drivers of a space shuttle. Where's the competition? Back in the old days of the Apollo or Gemini programs, at least they would make them hit the ocean and it would be a crapshoot as to whether they made it to the ship or drowned.

"Swim ya bastards, SWIM!!" :laugh:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Even if your outrageous lies had any merit (which they don't), none of that changes the FACT that Grand Scam is 169% crap. Garbage. Worthless. Rubbish. An abomination. Fred Nation. An affront to decency.


Did I mention that Grand Sham sucks? :saywhat: :thumbup:

Fact? :rolleyes:

If you aren't going to think on rational terms I'm not going to bother.

[RTKar]

The fact that you stated "Audi wins again" and made no mention of the drivers just shows how irrelevent the actual racing is in ALMS. Its a damn parade. BORING.

I see ALMS as a series still developing, so it'll be short of cars and reasonably predictable for the time being. Bring on the likes of Bentley,Maserati & a factory Ferrari, etc... I'd rather see a great series develop over time than an instant disposable tube framed happy meal. Affordable GA may be, but relevant to motorsports, I'm not so sure.

[JT265]

Fact? :rolleyes:

If you aren't going to think on rational terms I'm not going to bother.

Don't be hatin' SeanO. It's never stopped you before. ;)

[Sean O'Gorman]

I see ALMS as a series still developing, so it'll be short of cars and reasonably predictable for the time being. Bring on the likes of Bentley,Maserati & a factory Ferrari, etc...

ALMS has been "still developing" since 2000, right when Audi showed up and ruined things. The series was in great shape in 1999, it was the best series around IMO. The WSC cars were great, much faster than the Daytona Prototypes but still easy to be competitive if you had an R&S or Ferrari and two fast drivers. Then Panoz had to ruin it with his illusion of thinking anyone in the U.S. would care about Le Mans.

Tell me, if each class found one or two more factory teams, how does that improve the series? Theres still only 6-8 prototypes in each class, 6-8 GT1s, and many less privateers, especially in GT2. Privateers don't show up to spend millions of dollars to get beat by technology they can't obtain, so the series would implode yet again once the series became dependant on the factories.

Honestly, the easiest way for the Daytona Prototypes to have never been a factor is if there was somewhere for those teams to race in ALMS. But there wasn't, because the ALMS isn't for the competitors, its for Don Panoz's Le Mans fantasy. :rolleyes:

[Methanolandbrats]

GrandAm is the Applebees of motorsport. It sucks, but there is a full plate and it does'nt cost much.

[chop456]

Fact #1: I never said "Audi wins again". That is a fabrication on your part and shows the lengths that the dishonest fans of the desperate, morally bankrupt series will go to. And JDS Uniphase criminal something something. :p

Fact #2: Nobody cares about "accessibility" except for the teams and apparently you. :D I couldn't care less if some club racer can go buy an FR500 and go big time road racing and I couldn't care less if they don't have the money to step up and buy an RS Spyder. There will always be a top level. Pretending you're there doesn't make it so, nor does it make people show up to the races. I'm not a participant, and Grand Am being focused on them doesn't amount to a hill of beans, IMHO. "For the competitors". :laugh: Grand Am is the motorsports equivalent of the homely girl that gives everyone a shot. It's cheaper and it might be fun while your eyes are closed, just don't go around telling your friends she's a supermodel.

NASCAR filling a need, doing what's right, creating affordable motorsport and saving the whales. I think we have a pretty good idea of what they're about, and helping people doesn't seem to be a big part of it.

Competition adjustments are lame. If I had my way, Audi and Corvette would win by 10 laps every time out. :D

[Fio1]

I was at Miller this weekend for the G-A race.

Here's what I noticed vs ALMS:

When you look at an ALMS car (LMP or GT) up close it looks absolutely gorgeous! Clean, everything is tip-top, alla F1 or Champcar. A DP has fiberglass body work repair that looks pretty cheap, duct tape, chicken wire and the lines are not 100% (where body work meets tub). I was actually very surprised how cheap they look. Up close they really look like shht! The Porsche GT3 Cup cars that race in Grand-Am on the other hand look great, as long as they haven't been beat up.... But, the numbers make Grand-Am great for TV and having 3 cars in a 5 second gap after 9-hours speaks for it self!

Even a GT1 ALMS car looks more like a propper racing car then the DP's, there are no arguments out of anybody who's seen both up close. But, the fact that you have such a who's-who in racing in DP's and the fact that the races are usually very competitive attracts a lot of interest, incluging myself. I love the ALMS cars, but prefer the Grand-Am racing. Kind of like an F1 fan at the USGP can enjoy a night at IRP the night before the USGP. Therefore, I'd rather see ALMS live and G-A on TV.

[RTKar]

If I want "For the masses,contrived racing", I'll tune into NASCAR. Grand Am is just another contrived series to me...let's appeal to the masses...BOOGITY,BOOGITY on a road course I like the idea of knocking the big dog off his perch; In F1..beat Ferrari/Schumi, In the CART of old, beat Penske, and in ALMS, beat Audi & Corvette. It's a call out to other mfg's...come beat us. Racing ebbs and flows, it's constantly evolving, the story always changing overtime. Each individual race isn't the only storyline, it's the evolution of mfg's, teams, & drivers. Car counts may not be as indicative of success as one may think. A bunch of mediocre "players" doesn't make a good series In our instant gratification society we generally want what's perceived as the best now and want it often. The current side by side mentality in racing is an example of that. Not all finishes can be a photo finishes despite what Bill France thinks. Once it becomes commonplace, it loses it's appeal...think Hanford device.

I'd rather be at IRP or watching some guys slug it out on clay.

[extramundane]

Tell me, if each class found one or two more factory teams, how does that improve the series? Theres still only 6-8 prototypes in each class, 6-8 GT1s, and many less privateers, especially in GT2. Privateers don't show up to spend millions of dollars to get beat by technology they can't obtain, so the series would implode yet again once the series became dependant on the factories.


Personally, I'd be quite satisfied with 6-8 competitive cars per class. I still find it hilarious that GA is hyped as the most competitive series, with the proverbial "level playing field" yet only 6 of the ~30 DP teams managed to win, and 4 teams won all but 2 of the races.

But you're right, screw that GT2 class where privateers can't compete! Maybe after Flying Lizard win the championship this year, they can go to Grand Am GT and not win against the Factory P&M-built GTOs and the Porsche-supported Tafel cars. That would be totally r0x0rz!!!!

[cameraman]

Grand Am is too "contrived" in comparision to ALMS? What a load. ALMS is as contrived a form of racing as there is out there with weights, fuel supply and every other damn regulation changing whenever somebody gets a wild hair. ALMS is contrived expensive racing and Grand Am is contrived economy racing.

As for who put on the most enjoyable race weekend at MMP this summer, that would have been the AMA.

[Rob]

I still find it hilarious that GA is hyped as the most competitive series, with the proverbial "level playing field" yet only 6 of the ~30 DP teams managed to win, and 4 teams won all but 2 of the races.

CCWS and IRL are virtually spec series, but they are each dominated by 3 teams. The cream rises to the top no matter where you are.

[Fio1]

My biggest problem with Grand-Am is how they run things. They mickey mouse the rules to make sure their 'friends' win. They would do anything posible to make sure Bergmeister didn't win the title. And, in GT if Pontiac GTO doesn't win, there is a problem...

Also, the fact that you have to buy shht fuel and shht tires at high prices bothers me as well. The Sunoco Fuel messes up fuel tanks. A Porsche team has to replace the tanks twice a season at $6,500 a pop because the fuel sucks and eats up the foam. These tanks should last for years, not months if you ran propper fuel. That $6,500 does not include the labor to install the darn things (1 day job+ for 3 guys). The hoosiers are over-priced and suck. You can't double-stint them at Daytona and walk away with a $30,000 tire bill. At least at sebring, Le Mans, SPA or Nurburgring you can double and tripple stint the tires and can also get tire sponsors. Here you can't. You buy the tires at retail price. Think about how much money a low-budget team can save if they land a tire sponsor? :eek:

Grand-Am is like Nascar, a monopoly. :shakehead doesn't that go against the whole concept of the United States of America?

[RTKar]

Grand Am, at best, will reach a plateau of motosports mediocrity while a series such as ALMS can develop something awe inspiring. You'll never see the innovation of a Bruce McLaren or Jim Hall in GA...never see a GT 40, a Chapparal, the wonderful McLarens of days gone by, an R8 nor an R10.

[extramundane]

CCWS and IRL are virtually spec series, but they are each dominated by 3 teams. The cream rises to the top no matter where you are.

The difference is that nobody's pimping CCWS as a place where everyone can win. Plus, the fanatical devotion to Roger Edmondson reminds me of only one,,,other,,,place.

[coolhand]

*waits for the jan ******* of grand am to post*

edit--why is ******* filtered?

[Peter Olivola]

Is anyone besides Porsche having fuel cell problems?

Oh, and is there any other series employing as many drivers?


My biggest problem with Grand-Am is how they run things. They mickey mouse the rules to make sure their 'friends' win. They would do anything posible to make sure Bergmeister didn't win the title. And, in GT if Pontiac GTO doesn't win, there is a problem...

Also, the fact that you have to buy shht fuel and shht tires at high prices bothers me as well. The Sunoco Fuel messes up fuel tanks. A Porsche team has to replace the tanks twice a season at $6,500 a pop because the fuel sucks and eats up the foam. These tanks should last for years, not months if you ran propper fuel. That $6,500 does not include the labor to install the darn things (1 day job+ for 3 guys). The hoosiers are over-priced and suck. You can't double-stint them at Daytona and walk away with a $30,000 tire bill. At least at sebring, Le Mans, SPA or Nurburgring you can double and tripple stint the tires and can also get tire sponsors. Here you can't. You buy the tires at retail price. Think about how much money a low-budget team can save if they land a tire sponsor? :eek:

Grand-Am is like Nascar, a monopoly. :shakehead doesn't that go against the whole concept of the United States of America?

[Fio1]

Is anyone besides Porsche having fuel cell problems?

Oh, and is there any other series employing as many drivers?

Ya, a lot of Grand-Am cup teams have had to replace fuel cells as well as the GT BMW's.

Define employement? Bringing $30 to $40,000 per race for a DP ride or $15,000 for a GT seat, does not qualify as employement in my book.

[cameraman]

Grand Am, at best, will reach a plateau of motosports mediocrity while a series such as ALMS can develop something awe inspiring. You'll never see the innovation of a Bruce McLaren or Jim Hall in GA...never see a GT 40, a Chapparal, the wonderful McLarens of days gone by, an R8 nor an R10.

So what? You will never see a McLaren, Renault or Ferrari in Champ Car either.

[FCYTravis]

I still find it hilarious that GA is hyped as the most competitive series, with the proverbial "level playing field" yet only 6 of the ~30 DP teams managed to win, and 4 teams won all but 2 of the races.
Many more teams than that had a chance, but threw it away. Often repeatedly. Like ours. :cry: :laugh:

[FCYTravis]

Plus, the fanatical devotion to Roger Edmondson reminds me of only one,,,other,,,place.
Fanatical devotion to Roger Edmondson? You haven't spent much time in a Grand-Am paddock... don't judge Champ Car by its most rabid fanatics, and don't judge Grand-Am by that yardstick either. There's a lot of people in Grand-Am who have "issues" with series management, and who have ideas to improve it. They just know that whining about it on a Web forum won't change anything. Unlike, say, Tractioncontrolgate :rofl:

[FCYTravis]

Grand-Am is like Nascar, a monopoly
How in God's name is Grand-Am a monopoly? Did Bill France put a gun to Tracy Krohn's head and force him to run DPs?

[RTKar]

So what? You will never see a McLaren, Renault or Ferrari in Champ Car either.


Comparing what passes for CC these days...hardly a strong series that bills itself as the end all of motorsports. CART though, had McLaren in the early days, we also saw Porsche for a time, while Ferrari ran at Indy way back in the days before CART. Not to mention CART'S zenith years with Benz, Honda, Toyota, two tire mfg's and several chassis.

[Peter Olivola]

Since there are many, many other cars, some very low bucks (not necessarily in GrandAm,) using Sunoco without a problem, I'm more inclined to think there is a problem with certain fuel cells.

Employment for a race car driver is driving race cars. Whether the money comes from the first sponsor ("oh, dad...") or somewhere else is immaterial. Drivers working are in a better position to move up than drivers not working regardless of funding source.


Ya, a lot of Grand-Am cup teams have had to replace fuel cells as well as the GT BMW's.

Define employement? Bringing $30 to $40,000 per race for a DP ride or $15,000 for a GT seat, does not qualify as employement in my book.

[Fio1]

Employment for a race car driver is driving race cars. Whether the money comes from the first sponsor ("oh, dad...") or somewhere else is immaterial. Drivers working are in a better position to move up than drivers not working regardless of funding source.

In that case, I would say the series you are involved in 'employees' more drivers, SCCA.

Grand-Am is a great series in the fact that there are a lot of cars. The problem is the way they run things. They change rules in the middle of the season. If you are on the mailing list, you'll get a rules update before every race! Sometimes 10 rules are changed, mostly due to engine or weight. AIM motorsports bought a Riley-Lexus and were planning on going racing, when G-A disallowed the 5-liter Lexus motor? Now what? :shakehead

If you were at miller this weekend and saw the cup race you would know that. Usually they throw a caution with no hesitation. On this track a caution would be 20-25 minutes long. So, they said they would do everything in their power not to throw a caution. And, they didn't. The problem is, on lap 3 a Cobalt had a huge shunt, I though it rolled. The ambulance took 3 minutes to reach the driver. Luckily, it wasn't bad. Another Cobalt blew a motor and a bunch of cars went off because of the oil slick. Oil was left on the track the whole race. And finally, my favorite, a Nonnamacker Porsche went off the last corner and sent a tow truck to get him out. Well, the tow truck managed to get him deeper in the gravel. Then they sent a flat-bed, who stayed inches off the racing line on the exit of a corner for 10 minutes before they gave up and left the Porsche in the gravel trap. This was the biggest cluster f*** that I have ever seen in so called pro racing. It reminded me of the GT race I did in Guatemala! If this race was nine hours long like the Rolex race, they would have had a manadory yellow at half way to refuel the support vehicles (ambulance, tow trucks & flat beds). It was hilarious watching them cross the track going to get different cars who ended up going off.

[NismoZ]

Yeah, employment figures are what brings me out to the track. Those Team Corvettes are way faster than a DP and those Audis are HISTORY...that's why I go.

[Peter Olivola]

I'm not "involved" with any SCCA series, BTW. Neither the Cooper Series nor IMSA Lites is SCCA sanctioned, but I knew what you meant.

My issue is with the hypocracy shown in the knocks on GrandAm. Like it or hate it, and I think the DP's are hideous, the series is clearly filling a need for competitors. My view was born over 38 years ago and has only strengthened over time; racing is about the participants. It doesn't matter whether anyone shows up to watch. Those who want to race will do so if, in the words of my first racing mentor, "they have to walk barefoot in the snow the entire length of the Pennsylvania Turnpike."

Most of what's being argued here and on Trackforum, is about the entertainment industry, not racing. Professional racing has made, IMHO, far too many concessions to entertainment as it is. Once upon a time we all wished for TV coverage. We've had it. It's produced some very unpleasant unintended consequences. I'd like to see the entire sport off TV for a decade. The resulting reorganization would force a lot of the changes that most people agree have long been needed.

As for rescue crews and Charlie Foxtrot, you haven't lived 'till you've seen an oval track crew work a road race or the contract wrecker crews at the Mistake by the Lake.


In that case, I would say the series you are involved in 'employees' more drivers, SCCA.

Grand-Am is a great series in the fact that there are a lot of cars. The problem is the way they run things. They change rules in the middle of the season. If you are on the mailing list, you'll get a rules update before every race! Sometimes 10 rules are changed, mostly due to engine or weight. AIM motorsports bought a Riley-Lexus and were planning on going racing, when G-A disallowed the 5-liter Lexus motor? Now what? :shakehead

If you were at miller this weekend and saw the cup race you would know that. Usually they throw a caution with no hesitation. On this track a caution would be 20-25 minutes long. So, they said they would do everything in their power not to throw a caution. And, they didn't. The problem is, on lap 3 a Cobalt had a huge shunt, I though it rolled. The ambulance took 3 minutes to reach the driver. Luckily, it wasn't bad. Another Cobalt blew a motor and a bunch of cars went off because of the oil slick. Oil was left on the track the whole race. And finally, my favorite, a Nonnamacker Porsche went off the last corner and sent a tow truck to get him out. Well, the tow truck managed to get him deeper in the gravel. Then they sent a flat-bed, who stayed inches off the racing line on the exit of a corner for 10 minutes before they gave up and left the Porsche in the gravel trap. This was the biggest cluster f*** that I have ever seen in so called pro racing. It reminded me of the GT race I did in Guatemala! If this race was nine hours long like the Rolex race, they would have had a manadory yellow at half way to refuel the support vehicles (ambulance, tow trucks & flat beds). It was hilarious watching them cross the track going to get different cars who ended up going off.

[Peter Olivola]

Cool cars are a turn on. So are full grids. We live in an era when sports car racing can't seem to produce both simultaneously and that's too bad.


Yeah, employment figures are what brings me out to the track. Those Team Corvettes are way faster than a DP and those Audis are HISTORY...that's why I go.

[Easy]

My issue is with the hypocracy shown in the knocks on GrandAm. Like it or hate it, and I think the DP's are hideous, the series is clearly filling a need for competitors.



What most GA bashers refuse to see or acknowledge, is how similar current day DP racing is to CART in the 90's. A choice of off the shelf chassis and engine combo's available to everyone* and a mix of American and foreign drivers, some of whom were in CART in the 90's or who would have been if they weren't shut out for being American or not bringing enough cash.

[nrc]

What most GA bashers refuse to see or acknowledge, is how similar current day DP racing is to CART in the 90's. A choice of off the shelf chassis and engine combo's available to everyone* and a mix of American and foreign drivers, some of whom were in CART in the 90's or who would have been if they weren't shut out for being American or not bringing enough cash.
Rubbish. That's like saying a Ferrari and a Chevette are similar because they've both got four wheels. There is a funamental difference in philosophy. If you wanted to build your own car and not share it with anyone, you could. It wasn't until the mid '90s that engine supply rules even came into play. It was big league racing and if you didn't have the scratch, well then help yourself to some little league racing. Outside of a few gomers at 16th and Georgetown there was no belief or pretense that it was a game that just anyone should be able to afford to play.

[Sean O'Gorman]

What most GA bashers refuse to see or acknowledge, is how similar current day DP racing is to CART in the 90's. A choice of off the shelf chassis and engine combo's available to everyone* and a mix of American and foreign drivers, some of whom were in CART in the 90's or who would have been if they weren't shut out for being American or not bringing enough cash.

But, but, duh cars are ugly. :gomer:


Rubbish. That's like saying a Ferrari and a Chevette are similar because they've both got four wheels. There is a funamental difference in philosophy. If you wanted to build your own car and not share it with anyone, you could. It wasn't until the mid '90s that engine supply rules even came into play. It was big league racing and if you didn't have the scratch, well then help yourself to some little league racing. Outside of a few gomers at 16th and Georgetown there was no belief or pretense that it was a game that just anyone should be able to afford to play.

Chevette? That's a stretch. And even if they were, 99% of the fun of racing or watching the racing is seeing if one guy in a "Chevette" can beat the other guy. Not watching a TDI car steamroll over an unworthy competitor, who is usually an afterthought when they compete in Grand-Am.

[nrc]

Chevette? That's a stretch. And even if they were, 99% of the fun of racing or watching the racing is seeing if one guy in a "Chevette" can beat the other guy. Not watching a TDI car steamroll over an unworthy competitor, who is usually an afterthought when they compete in Grand-Am.That has nothing to do with what I said.

[Tifosi24]

Well, I am not an expert on this subject by any means, but I do like to watch racing, and over the past few years I can say that Grand-Am has produced a better on-track product. People may argue that it is dumbed down, but when compared to the IRL this level of dumbing isn't to the same level. ALMS is fun to watch because the cars are sexy, but the on-track action is mundane at best over the past few years, which is tragic because as Gorman mentioned earlier the series had a ton of potential in 1999. In fact the Mosport 2000 race still ranks as one of the most exciting races I ever saw on TV (BMW and Audi duel to the finish, while at the same time Viper and Corvette duel to the finish on wet tyres in the dry.) Panoz tied his horse to France and it has hurt him in the long-run.

[FCYTravis]

They change rules in the middle of the season.
And the ALMS doesn't? Have you been following their rules changes debacles, with Audi threatening to quit the series over competition adjustments?

[extramundane]

Many more teams than that had a chance, but threw it away. Often repeatedly. Like ours. :cry: :laugh:

If I was some of the ALMS forum kiddies, I'd argue that there are plenty of ALMS teams with a chance at overall victory, they're just hampered by not actually existing.

But I'm not, so I won't.


Fanatical devotion to Roger Edmondson? You haven't spent much time in a Grand-Am paddock... don't judge Champ Car by its most rabid fanatics, and don't judge Grand-Am by that yardstick either. There's a lot of people in Grand-Am who have "issues" with series management, and who have ideas to improve it. They just know that whining about it on a Web forum won't change anything.

Fair enough. And, yes, you can replace "Roger" and "GA" with "Don" and "ALMS" as needed and still have an accurate statement.

But you've still got Doc Austin, so neener-neener. :o

[FCYTravis]

There are plenty of ALMS teams with a chance at overall victory, they're just hampered by not actually existing.
Hey! Don't be knockin' Shaw Chassis Technologies... that Hawaiian-shirt color scheme is bitchin'! :rofl:

[Easy]

Rubbish. That's like saying a Ferrari and a Chevette are similar because they've both got four wheels. There is a funamental difference in philosophy. If you wanted to build your own car and not share it with anyone, you could. It wasn't until the mid '90s that engine supply rules even came into play. It was big league racing and if you didn't have the scratch, well then help yourself to some little league racing. Outside of a few gomers at 16th and Georgetown there was no belief or pretense that it was a game that just anyone should be able to afford to play.


In CART 1996 you had a choice of any combo of Swift, Reynard, Lola, (maybe) Penske and Honda, Mercedes, Ford, Toyota.

In DP 2006 you have a choice of Riley, Crawford, Fabcar, Picchio (if you have a lot of self hatred) and Toyota, Porsche, Ford, Pontiac, BMW.

And if you can't get your s*** together in DP's you might as well not show up, just like say, Davis Racing, Hemelgarn, Dick Simon, etc. or Brumos, Southard, Spirit of Daytona, etc.

Don't forget a mix of American and foreign born drivers professional racing drivers including 90's CART drivers Scott Pruett, Christi Fittipaldi, Eddie Cheever, Memo Gidley, Alex Barron, Jan Magnussen, Max Papis and 90's CART Indy Lights and Atlantic drivers Mike Borkowski, Michael Valiante, Bill Auberlen, Kenny Wilden, Alex Gurney, David Empringham.

I really don't see that a comparison is "rubbish".

[nrc]

In CART 1996 you had a choice of any combo of Swift, Reynard, Lola, (maybe) Penske and Honda, Mercedes, Ford, Toyota.

In DP 2006 you have a choice of Riley, Crawford, Fabcar, Picchio (if you have a lot of self hatred) and Toyota, Porsche, Ford, Pontiac, BMW.
Or you could say, I'm going to build my very own car with my own engine which nobody else gets. You could build your very own engine with no manufacturer involvement and not offer it to anyone until it was "competition proven". Can you do that in DP?

Not only could you do it, but what you buillt in 1996 would be higher tech than anything you can run in DP a decade later.


And if you can't get your s*** together in DP's you might as well not show up, just like say, Davis Racing, Hemelgarn, Dick Simon, etc. or Brumos, Southard, Spirit of Daytona, etc.

Not really relevant. The difference is the whole notion that a supposedly top level road racing series should be affordable to teams who historically have been running lower level road racing and open wheel feeder series (ironically, sometimes in faster, arguably higher tech cars). Nobody in Indy car decided that they should ban carbon tubs so Hemelgarn could run a full season.


I really don't see that a comparison is "rubbish".
You're declaring two series similar because they share two characteristics that are shared by almost any non-spec racing series. It's a superficial and largely meaningless comparison.

[Easy]

It's a superficial and largely meaningless


As are most CCWS fans reasons for hating DP's.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Or you could say, I'm going to build my very own car with my own engine which nobody else gets. You could build your very own engine with no manufacturer involvement and not offer it to anyone until it was "competition proven". Can you do that in DP?

Not only could you do it, but what you buillt in 1996 would be higher tech than anything you can run in DP a decade later.

No, you can't do that, because it adds no value to a series. In fact, it flat out ruins one. Why would you want to see a successful series ruined? I just don't get it.

And what, exactly, is more high tech about a '96 Indycar vs. a DP? It looks sleeker isn't a valid reason.

[extramundane]

As are most CCWS fans reasons for hating DP's.

What about those of us who hate everything and are just here for the free buffet?

[Dr. Corkski]

What about those of us who hate everything and are just here for the free buffet?Speaking of which, where is my buffet?

I like Grand-Am though, because I know some dude that does PR for a team. Total shill like O'Gorman, except he gets paid to do it. :gomer:

[nrc]

No, you can't do that, because it adds no value to a series. In fact, it flat out ruins one. Sez you.
http://champcar.com/gallery/gallery99/best_of_1999/no_flagburning_here480.jpg


And what, exactly, is more high tech about a '96 Indycar vs. a DP? It looks sleeker isn't a valid reason.They were full carbon tubs with ground effects, engines and transaxles as stressed members, and fairly open suspension specs. A Daytona Prototype has more in common with an 80's era sports racer with its tube frame and semi-monocoque construction than it does with most modern formula cars or prototypes.

[Spicoli]

A Daytona Prototype has more in common with an 80's era Toyota Corolla with its tube frame and semi-monocoque construction than it does with most modern formula cars or prototypes.

me fixedered it fer ya boss-man.:cool:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Sez you.
http://champcar.com/gallery/gallery99/best_of_1999/no_flagburning_here480.jpg

They were full carbon tubs with ground effects, engines and transaxles as stressed members, and fairly open suspension specs. A Daytona Prototype has more in common with an 80's era sports racer with its tube frame and semi-monocoque construction than it does with most modern formula cars or prototypes.

Wow, citing a car that had millions of dollars dumped into it only to be stuck in the back of the pack for its entire existance??

What is the big deal about carbon fiber? Or open suspensions? Can you even notice what kind of suspension the car has as it goes around the track? This "tech" stuff doesn't add to what really matters in a series, which is competitive, driver-oriented racing that more than two teams can actually afford.

[Spicoli]

Wow, citing a car that had millions of dollars dumped into it only to be stuck in the back of the pack for its entire existance??

What is so high tech about carbon fibre? Or open suspensions? Can you even notice what kind of suspension the car has as it goes around the track? This "tech" stuff doesn't add to what really matters in a series, which is competitive, driver-oriented racing that more than two teams can actually afford.

IRL versions 1.a - 5.b(1) ?


Yep, that worked out well. :laugh:

[RichK]

No, you can't do that, because it adds no value to a series. In fact, it flat out ruins one.

Here are a couple pix from 2 series that have yet to be "ruined" by letting teams build their own stuff:

Kenny Roberts Jr. on a Team KR MotoGP bike:
http://www.racesport.nl/images/6468.jpg

Some guy in a red car with "open suspension":
http://images.sportsnetwork.com/auto/getty/2002/schumacher_michael14.jpg

[RichK]

What is the big deal about carbon fiber? Or open suspensions? Can you even notice what kind of suspension the car has as it goes around the track? This "tech" stuff doesn't add to what really matters in a series, which is competitive, driver-oriented racing that more than two teams can actually afford.

If you don't know what the big deal is with CF - do a little research. I hope you were joking/trolling with that statement.

Yes, you can tell what kind of suspension is on a car by the way it performs on a track. Put an "old" 80s rocker-arm suspension on a modern F1 car, and compare how it takes Eau Rouge with the modern-suspended version. Light years difference, and appreciated by race fans around the world.

[Sean O'Gorman]

So 80s F1 sucked then?

[Sean O'Gorman]

If you don't know what the big deal is with CF - do a little research. I hope you were joking/trolling with that statement.

I meant I don't see the big deal about CF since its been around on race cars for so long now. The DP's have carbon fiber bodywork, don't they? When they are going around the track, you can't tell they are tube-framed, so does it really matter?

[FCYTravis]

I don't know why anyone brought up suspension. Every DP has modern, double-wishbone pushrod-actuated suspension with inboard shocks.

Ask any driver who's driven a DP, and you'll find that they consider them to be rather more nimble than they look, and quite fun to drive. With fairly skinny, hard tires and not a whole lot of downforce, they put an element of driver skill back in, because you can't just fling the car into a corner with all four smoking and expect it to catch. You've got to, you know, drive the darn thing, not just aim it and plant your foot to the floor.

Furthermore, the close competition fosters lots of wheel-to-wheel racing, which... surprise, the drivers like to do! It may come as a shock to some people, but the drivers actually enjoy the racing more when they get to, you know, race other cars for position, rather than just tool around all alone.

[FCYTravis]

IRL versions 1.a - 5.b(1) ?
The difference is that open-wheel racing at the time wasn't broken. TG decided his ego couldn't handle being just another track owner.

Sports car racing was most definitely broken at the time Grand-Am was founded, and two separate schools of thought developed as to what would be sustainable: base American sports car racing off some guys in France, or develop a new paradigm that focused on American manufacturers and American privateer teams.

One became the ALMS, and the other became Grand-Am. They've been going their own separate ways ever since.

[racer2c]

I don't know why anyone brought up suspension. Every DP has modern, double-wishbone pushrod-actuated suspension with inboard shocks.

Ask any driver who's driven a DP, and you'll find that they consider them to be rather more nimble than they look, and quite fun to drive. With fairly skinny, hard tires and not a whole lot of downforce, they put an element of driver skill back in, because you can't just fling the car into a corner with all four smoking and expect it to catch. You've got to, you know, drive the darn thing, not just aim it and plant your foot to the floor.

Furthermore, the close competition fosters lots of wheel-to-wheel racing, which... surprise, the drivers like to do! It may come as a shock to some people, but the drivers actually enjoy the racing more when they get to, you know, race other cars for position, rather than just tool around all alone.

The last person to ask an opinion from is a driver. You know, the ol' "space between the seat and steering wheel".

I'll ask a similar question here as I did in the AJ thread. If no one can tell the difference between high tech and low tech than why spend all the money and time with high tech? Well, my stop watch can tell the difference and to me, racing is about going faster than the other guy, not "rules" that make sure everyone is slow and having "fun".

What a sad world of racing it would be if NASCAR owned all of the series. Why question technology is like asking “why question authority”. Take what is given to you and like it!

[nrc]

I don't know why anyone brought up suspension. Every DP has modern, double-wishbone pushrod-actuated suspension with inboard shocks.
So you guys are running a third spring? Interesting. ;)

[Spicoli]

The difference is that open-wheel racing at the time wasn't broken. TG decided his ego couldn't handle being just another track owner.

Sports car racing was most definitely broken at the time Grand-Am was founded, and two separate schools of thought developed as to what would be sustainable: base American sports car racing off some guys in France, or develop a new paradigm that focused on American manufacturers and American privateer teams.

One became the ALMS, and the other became Grand-Am. They've been going their own separate ways ever since.

thanks for the history lesson there Trabbis. :laugh:

At the end of the day, the DPs are fUGLEE. No 2 ways around it.

We agree on fTG and the rest, but i have to believe that the truth of what a proper sports car league/series should be rests ina combo off both series/leagues.


but then, we wouldn;t have anything to beetch about, and OC would not exist, and we would never have had the chance to meet all these nice people like say, Dr. Corkscrewisloose.

[Sean O'Gorman]

The last person to ask an opinion from is a driver. You know, the ol' "space between the seat and steering wheel".

Why on earth would you think that? Without race car drivers, any form of motorsports would just be just some nerdy battlebots competition. http://www.freewebby.com/action-smilies/propeller.gif

[racer2c]

Why on earth would you think that? Without race car drivers, any form of motorsports would just be just some nerdy battlebots competition. http://www.freewebby.com/action-smilies/propeller.gif

Like F1? :) Just kidding...*tap tap* is this thing on?

I was just using the ol' engineer adage regarding the drivers. My point being that 99% of the drivers of any series will find warm and fuzzy's to pour all over it if the checks keep clearing.

[Dr. Corkski]

but then, we wouldn;t have anything to beetch about, and OC would not exist, and we would never have had the chance to meet all these nice people like say, Dr. Corkscrewisloose.Keep feeding my ego like that and I am going to hire a patent attorney. :tony:

[Sean O'Gorman]

My point being that 99% of the drivers of any series will find warm and fuzzy's to pour all over it if the checks keep clearing.

That's an inaccurate statement, when you consider 99% of drivers pay to race. They damn well better be able to find warm and fuzzies to pour on a series if they are spending 6-7 figures on it!

[Fio1]

I love ALMS cars, but prefer Grand-Am races. When both are on TV, I would pick Grand-Am. Seeing it live, I would pay to see ALMS, Grand-Am I would use my hard card (if I didn't have one, I wouldn't go). I don't know how else to put it. Both have their pluses and their negatives. There is not one solution, like there is not one solution to running a country. This arguement can go on for ever.

[racer2c]

That's an inaccurate statement, when you consider 99% of drivers pay to race. They damn well better be able to find warm and fuzzies to pour on a series if they are spending 6-7 figures on it!

Oh, you mean drivers pay to race DP's? Ma Gawd!:eek: Oh, and news flash for ya, even if they obtain sponsorship money to go racing whether it's from daddy or Bubba's Root Beer they is gettin' paid too.:gomer:

[FCYTravis]

but i have to believe that the truth of what a proper sports car league/series should be rests ina combo off both series/leagues.
Then we agree! :saywhat:

Being inside the series, I'd be the last one to tell you that Grand-Am is perfect. It's not - no racing series is. The cars are pretty damn ugly, we agree. They're slower than they should be, we agree. But they've got some things right, like figuring out how to encourage close competition at reasonable prices. Of course, the cost to run at the front is going up... how will Grand-Am respond to that upward pressure? The answer to that question remains to be seen.

We live in interesting times :)

[FCYTravis]

So you guys are running a third spring? Interesting. ;)
Well, how did you THINK we were going so fast all the time? You didn't honestly think it was just raw talent from Gurney and Fogarty, did you? :laugh:

The Unfair Advantage lives ;)

[RichK]

So 80s F1 sucked then?

Nope, those cars were the best in the world at the time, just like now. The fans poured in through the gates back then, just like now.

[oddlycalm]

As for who put on the most enjoyable race weekend at MMP this summer, that would have been the AMA. Agreed. Wasn't there to see those races but I know that you're right from past experience.

ALMS blithely ignores the realities of post-tobacco racing and Grand Am is just another France moto-tainment contrivance designed to squeeze out the competition at the expense of the race fan.

oc

[Ankf00]

What is the big deal about carbon fiber? Or open suspensions? Can you even notice what kind of suspension the car has as it goes around the track? This "tech" stuff doesn't add to what really matters in a series, which is competitive, driver-oriented racing that more than two teams can actually afford.

I'm not a competitor, I'm a spectator. And those of us spectators not doing ins adjustment would beg to differ with your opinion. :)

I mean, to an ins adjuster, it's all just dollars and risk assesment... To us, it's... well... it's nancy-boy stuff you just wouldn't get :gomer:

[NismoZ]

And upon further review...times from Laguna, Mid-Ohio and Utah indicate a DP is faster than only a GT2 car at those tracks. In fact the slowest GT1 car (an old Viper...aren't they cheaper than a DP?) was faster than all the DPs. Something like a 16 sec. gap in Utah, to the R-10s. Yeeow.

[nissan gtp]

Mid-Ohio
The Grand-Am Daytona Prototype (DP) pole this year was 1:20.202
The American Le Mans Series pole was 1:12.378
Champ Car, co-held by Dario and Gil, 1:05.347

The slowest car in the LMP1, LMP2 and GT1 classes was 1:19.941.
So only the little ALMS GT2 cars were slower than a Daytona Prototypes.

Laguna Seca
This year the DP Pole was 1:25.014.
Last year the American Le Mans Series pole was 1:14.195
Champ Car, Helio Castroneves, 1:07.72

The slowest car in the LMP1, LMP2 and GT1 classes was an old Viper, which ran a 1:23.488.
Again, the only cars that were slower than the DPs were the GT2 cars.

[racer2c]

Mid-Ohio
The Grand-Am Daytona Prototype (DP) pole this year was 1:20.202
The American Le Mans Series pole was 1:12.378
Champ Car, co-held by Dario and Gil, 1:05.347

The slowest car in the LMP1, LMP2 and GT1 classes was 1:19.941.
So only the little ALMS GT2 cars were slower than a Daytona Prototypes.

Laguna Seca
This year the DP Pole was 1:25.014.
Last year the American Le Mans Series pole was 1:14.195
Champ Car, Helio Castroneves, 1:07.72

The slowest car in the LMP1, LMP2 and GT1 classes was an old Viper, which ran a 1:23.488.
Again, the only cars that were slower than the DPs were the GT2 cars.


:rofl:

[Spicoli]

why watch anyything else?




http://www.freewebby.com/action-smilies/microwave.gif


http://www.freewebby.com/action-smilies/microwave.g

[Lizzerd]

Mid-Ohio
The Grand-Am Daytona Prototype (DP) pole this year was 1:20.202
The American Le Mans Series pole was 1:12.378
Champ Car, co-held by Dario and Gil, 1:05.347

The slowest car in the LMP1, LMP2 and GT1 classes was 1:19.941.
So only the little ALMS GT2 cars were slower than a Daytona Prototypes.

Laguna Seca
This year the DP Pole was 1:25.014.
Last year the American Le Mans Series pole was 1:14.195
Champ Car, Helio Castroneves, 1:07.72

The slowest car in the LMP1, LMP2 and GT1 classes was an old Viper, which ran a 1:23.488.
Again, the only cars that were slower than the DPs were the GT2 cars.

[O Gorman mode] "But it's great racing! [/O Gorman mode]

[nrc]

http://www.automobilemag.com/features/columns/0407_vilegossip_lecar.jpg

[cameraman]

Mid-Ohio
The slowest car in the LMP1, LMP2 and GT1 classes was 1:19.941.
So only the little ALMS GT2 cars were slower than a Daytona Prototypes.

The slowest car in the LMP1, LMP2 and GT1 classes was an old Viper, which ran a 1:23.488.
Again, the only cars that were slower than the DPs were the GT2 cars.

If the only thing you are interested in is raw speed why aren't you watching the IRL ovals? They are the fastest thing out there right now.:rolleyes:

And speed does not explain how the AMA bikes put on the best weekend at MMP when they ran far slower on a shorter course. It ain't just top speed, if it was they would have grandstands out on the salt flats...

If you ignore the politics and just watch the cars going round n round, the GA race at MMP was a good time for all five hundred of us who attended.

[racer2c]

If the only thing you are interested in is raw speed why aren't you watching the IRL ovals? They are the fastest thing out there right now.:rolleyes:

And speed does not explain how the AMA bikes put on the best weekend at MMP when they ran far slower on a shorter course. It ain't just top speed, if it was they would have grandstands out on the salt flats...

If you ignore the politics and just watch the cars going round n round, the GA race at MMP was a good time for all five hundred of us who attended.

:shakehead

That's right, I forgot, racing is all about 'entertainment'. :thumdown:

[nrc]

If the only thing you are interested in is raw speed why aren't you watching the IRL ovals? They are the fastest thing out there right now.:rolleyes: Whereas if you're interested in contrived "good racing" you've got the choice of NASCAR, IRL, or GA.

[Easy]

Or you can watch world class talents like Katherine Legge, Nelson Phillipe, Nicky Pastorelli and Dan Clarke do battle in alleys with 8 year old cars.

Champ Car isn't exactly the Gold Standard in terms of talent or entertainment at the moment.

[cameraman]

:shakehead

That's right, I forgot, racing is all about 'entertainment'. :thumdown:

Those LeMans cars you swoon over are absolute pigs in comparision to prototypes of the past so why waste your time watching something so bloody slow as a 2007 LMP1?

I can watch an Atlantics or GP2 race and enjoy it. They are not the fastest nor the most advanced yet the races can be very good. The Miata race at MMP was fun to watch. I liked the all the classes of the AMA weekend. Star Mazda can put on a good show even though they didn't at MMP this year. Even Champ Car manages a decent race on occasion. I can enjoy many different things. You clearly are incapable of enjoying much of anything.

[Sean O'Gorman]

[O Gorman mode] "But it's great racing! [/O Gorman mode]


:shakehead

That's right, I forgot, racing is all about 'entertainment'. :thumdown:


Whereas if you're interested in contrived "good racing" you've got the choice of NASCAR, IRL, or GA.

So tell me, why do you guys even watch racing??? :shakehead

[chop456]

So tell me, why do you guys even watch racing??? :shakehead

Enjoy the WNBA of racing. :gomer:

[extramundane]

So tell me, why do you guys even watch racing??? :shakehead

Beach volleyball, mostly.

[RichK]

I watch for the headlight decals. Adhesive technology is an active hobby of mine. :\

[nrc]

So tell me, why do you guys even watch racing??? :shakehead
Because I enjoy motorsport.

[Spicoli]

So tell me, why do you guys even watch racing??? :shakehead

You been hanging out with Chris Paff lately? :laugh:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Because I enjoy motorsport.

But you don't watch to be entertained, right? And good racing is considered a bad thing?

[NismoZ]

Sure, C-man and NHRA is even MORE exciting because it's faster? Nope. Speed is relative. An average of 108 mph on some CC venues is WAAAY harder to acheive than a top speed, flat out, foot to the floor, 100% throttle lap on a high bank cookie cutter. Compare relative times on the same track with relative cars and you've got something. F-1 crazies have been pointing out for years how much "better" they are than CC because they are so much faster...and about 30X more expensive.:) No, not only interested in raw speed, but I'm in it for the cars too.

[racer2c]

Those LeMans cars you swoon over are absolute pigs in comparision to prototypes of the past so why waste your time watching something so bloody slow as a 2007 LMP1?

I can watch an Atlantics or GP2 race and enjoy it. They are not the fastest nor the most advanced yet the races can be very good. The Miata race at MMP was fun to watch. I liked the all the classes of the AMA weekend. Star Mazda can put on a good show even though they didn't at MMP this year. Even Champ Car manages a decent race on occasion. I can enjoy many different things. You clearly are incapable of enjoying much of anything.

You're a REAL race fan! :thumbup:

[racer2c]

Reality check...

http://www.autoracingdaily.com/images/photos_local/lc11525992596962.jpg

http://www.foytracing.com/IndyCar/2006_reports/photos/14%20car%20in%2006.jpg

http://www.speedtv.com/_assets/library/img/large/99968_cot.jpg

[racer2c]

For the rest of us who don't appreciate GOOD racing there's these....THANK GOD!

http://newsonf1.net/im/06/r26-30r.jpg

http://paddocktalk.com/news/html/modules/ew_filemanager/06images/CCWS/06/dp01test/DP01-sebring-600.jpg

http://www.ln.xinhuanet.com/qichepd/2006-07/31/xin_35070331160839014755493.jpg

[Methanolandbrats]

:thumbup: Racer2c. Tards ain't ever gonna get it.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Awesome, I bet they make for great car shows.

[extramundane]

All I know is that the Mike Schumacher/Sterling Marlin superteam is going to take the DP class into the mainstream spotlight! :tony:

[Indy]

But you don't watch to be entertained, right? And good racing is considered a bad thing?

If I want "good racing" in the sense you mean it, I can go to the local karting track and get the same thing (and participate in it, for that matter).

There are people who throw darts, and there are people who throw the little velcro balls at the fabric "dartboard." If you like the fuzzy little balls, then good for you, but please do not think you can convince us it is real sport.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Of course I won't be able to convince you, you have no concept of reality. :gomer:

There are plenty of current and former CART, Atlantic, ALMS, etc. drivers that drive Grand-Am, are they not really racing?