9-11-01 [Archive] - Off Camber Forums

Gangrel

09-11-06, 07:05 AM

We got married at the end of August, 2001. The morning of Sept 11, 3 weeks after we were marred, I dropped my wife off at the airport for a business flight. She was on a plane en route from O'hare to LAX when I heard that a plane hit the #2 tower. Reports came in that it was a small plane, then changed that it was a jumbo jet. Then the second plane hit. That was when I started to worry.

Ultimately, her plane was diverted to Denver. Hers was one of the last planes to land, and she came in with a fighter escort.

It wasn't until I was able to confirm that she was going to be ok that the magnitude of the rest of what I was seeing hit me. While I was trying to confirm her position and situation, I was at work and only heard what was going on on the radio. My workplace closed, and I got home just in time to see the first dower collapse. I think until then I was in complete disblief.

Spicoli

09-11-06, 07:53 AM

Tough day for all Americans.:(

Don Quixote

09-11-06, 08:18 AM

Amen

Elmo T

09-11-06, 08:25 AM

http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/P200084-1.jpg

http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/P200084-2.jpg

http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/P200084-3.jpg

http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/P200084-4.jpg

Elmo T

09-11-06, 08:27 AM

http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/P200086-1.jpg

http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/P200086-2.jpg

http://www.rcfp.org/moussaoui/jpg/size600/P200085-1.jpg

TKGAngel

09-11-06, 08:31 AM

RHR_Fan

09-11-06, 09:36 AM

Last night I watched the CBS documentary filmed by the two French brothers. Its still as powerful as it was when it was originally broadcast in 2002. I started to tear up at the end when they were playing "Danny Boy" and showing the photos of all of the firemen that died that day.

I watched about the last hour of it too. I still remember asking my mom when she picked me up from school if they found any survivors. After a while, unfortunately, I just stopped asking since the answer was always the same. :(

~Nicole

RaceGrrl

09-11-06, 12:21 PM

dando

09-11-06, 12:36 PM

Spicoli

09-11-06, 12:53 PM

I'll never forget that day. Sadly, it just doesn't feel like 5 years have passed, but when I look @ my daughters, I realize it has. I've sampled some of the coverage being streamed on CNN.com today, and it's just sad to relive it all.

-Kevin

Me too. I forgot how long it was between both the impacts, something like 17 minutes elapsed.

I think it is good for people to revisit the moment; it adds perspective. Education is always good - regardless of your politics.

anait

09-11-06, 02:03 PM

Mr anait had left the TV on when he left for work. Wasn't long before what I was hearing had me wide awake. I spent the rest of the day watching, saw everything live. The horrible feeling when the towers fell...it was like my soul knew, could feel, the loss of life.

RacinM3

09-11-06, 02:48 PM

Feels like yesterday. I'm not a huge flag-waver, but I was a little annoyed as I drove out of my neighborhood this morning about how few people who'd had flags up on the 4th of July, and didn't have flags up today.

People cannot forget those who died that day, and those who were left behind, and those who have been affected by the wars we have gone to since.

I woke up that morning to the TV news showing the first tower on fire. They were talking about a small plane hitting it. I knew the fire/damage was too big for that. I was guessing that maybe they'd hijacked a cargo plane or something...figuring it was just too hard logistically to try to pull it off with a commercial passenger plane. Then I saw the second plane, obviously a passenger jet, hit. Then the horrow sunk in. I left for the office, never really thinking that the towers would collapse. I heard that news via the radio on the freeway on the way in.

Lizzerd

09-11-06, 03:37 PM

I remember it like yesterday. At the time, I was working at home so I was never out of bed before 9:30-10:00. 2001 was also before Indiana went to Daylight Saving Time. I remember waking up at 7:48 (8:48 ET), and for some reason, sprang right out of bed. I turned on MSNBC maybe five minutes later (hoping to seee Imus in the Morning). When I turned the TV on was right at the time they started the special report about a small plane hitting the first tower. I was brushing my teeth when the second plane hit. (Fortunately, I had already done my morning number-two).

I just thought it was odd that I happened to wake up on that morning two hours earlier than I normally would have. Needeless to say, I didn't get much work done that day.

JLMannin

09-11-06, 08:59 PM

My wife called me at 8:00 am and told me that a samll plane had hit the World Trade Center. At work, we did not have internet access on our PC's at the time. My co-worker and I were listening to the radio when the second plane hit. My heart just sank. Our boss came in - we told him what was happening and he thought we were joking.

There was one TV in our wing that had CNN. I walked in and saw the second tower collapse. My first reaction was that it could not be real. Of course, I knew it was real.

My parents were in Vegas - I thought they would flip out. I was really impressed - they kept their cool and waited five days and left the room to get away from the TV. My third child was born on September 25, 2001 - I knew he would grow up in a world radically different from the one I grew up in.

RTKar

09-11-06, 09:20 PM

Lizzerd

09-11-06, 11:53 PM

Wow...five years,

December 7th 1941 brought this isolationist country into WW2. Five years later, December 7th 1946, the worst war this world has ever known was over. I'm not so sure the current enemies of this country, the enemies of anything not radical fundamentalist, will ever be vanquished. It's sobering to think our way of life may be changed forever because of this day five years ago.

The "war" in Europe, particularly Germany, was not really over after the military cease and death of Hitler. They were called Werewolves. **** (I think that word is banned) sympathisers and loyalists to Hitler wreaked havoc on the Allied forces with road side bombs and sniper shootings as they were rebuilding the country. Much like what is happening now in Iraq. And it went on for several years, again much like what is happening in Iraq today. The big difference is that the Allied Forces in Iraq didn't lose hundreds of thousands of lives getting to the same point.

coolhand

09-12-06, 01:12 AM

The "war" in Europe, particularly Germany, was not really over after the military cease and death of Hitler. They were called Werewolves. **** (I think that word is banned) sympathisers and loyalists to Hitler wreaked havoc on the Allied forces with road side bombs and sniper shootings as they were rebuilding the country. Much like what is happening now in Iraq. And it went on for several years, again much like what is happening in Iraq today. The big difference is that the Allied Forces in Iraq didn't lose hundreds of thousands of lives getting to the same point.

Not only that, the Soviets were not done killing people either.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Keelhaul

They were rounded up in Austria and forcibly repatriated. Most were headed for the Soviet zone of Germany in the east, or for Slovenia in the south. Many of the refugees were summarily executed (as revenge for the crimes committed by fascists during the war), sometimes within earshot of the British. The killings at the hand of the Yugoslav forces are known as the Bleiburg massacre.

Among those handed over were White Russians who had never been Soviet citizens including the General Andrei Shkuro and the Ataman of the Don Cossack host Pyotr Krasnov, despite the British Foreign Office policy stated after the Yalta Conference that only Soviet citizens, before September 1, 1939, were to be compelled to return to the USSR.

greenie

09-12-06, 01:13 AM

Chilling stuff - Gangrel, yikes!

I got a call that woke me up about this 5 years ago. I had to be in San Diego that day for a hearing the next morning and it was a trip driving down seeing the San Onofre nuke plant under guard by the cops and the AMTRACK rails shuttered. Very few SoCals on the road.

Very erie - my hotel overlooked the airport which was also a trip - nothing happening. The Spanish language stations on the tube showing the people falling out of the towers is imprinted - lady in a green dress, I'll never forget that and wish I hadn't seen it. Such bad luck.

It seems like it was 10 years ago to me.

vancouver

09-12-06, 09:33 AM

It was lunchtime here when the planes hit. (1:45PM)

I remember seeing it all unfold on the BBC lunchtime bulletins. :(

Joelski

09-12-06, 10:24 AM

Hated the whole thing. I was working, and had just finished a fire run when somebody came out to the apparatus bay and told us to come look at the TV. I will never forget the loss of members of the brotherhood, but I really hated having to stand up and be thanked by the community (for what? Not getting killed?) The Fire Service, Law Enforcement, and EMS (largely ignored in all of this), has been a relatively invisible and thankless profession all these years until someone decides to put on a huge, overwhelming thank-you party that none of us could escape. Don't get me wrong, the recognition was nice, if not long overdue, but that's not what any public safety employee takes the job for. I was part of a group that went to NYC to pull relief duty in the weeks that followed the attacks and the magnitude of post-traumatic stress was unbelieveable. I've had the pleasure of being in many big city situations (gun to head, shot at, etc...), and none of my experiences could paralell the look in these guys eyes. The loss is something nobody can imagine or put into words. I did confined space searches for two weeks and I swear to GOD, next time, it's someone else's turn. Some of the people with my crew that did critical incident stress debriefing, will never do it again. It has a wider effect than just ground zero, the field, or the pentagon. The only thing those survivors want is the thing they may never get; justice for everyone responsible for this act.

Don't ever forget.

racer2c

09-12-06, 11:14 AM

I was driving into the office that morning up I95. I was listening to Stern and Robin mentioned that a report just came across the wire that a small plane hit one of the towers. It quickly escalated and just as the reports of the plane hitting the Pentagon broke, I was coming off the elevated HOV ramp to make my connection to the Beltway. On the horizon I saw a huge plume of black smoke and the reality of the situation became ironically surreal. My wife was already at her office in Alexandria but my cell wasn’t connecting (I didn’t know at the time that all cells were down).

I continued on to my office to find my co-workers huddled around the computers watching streaming news from CNN. The first thing they told me as I walked up was, “They just got the Sears Tower, the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and LAX. We’re under attack!”. A few seconds later a female co-worker came running up with tears streaming down her face and said “the New York planes have biological weapons on them”. The various reports based on any rumor someone happened to hear.

I was able to get hold of my wife on my desk phone, she was crying and I told her to calm down, grab her purse and head home. We commuted 75 miles south and the last thing I wanted was the two of us up here and my daughter at home alone. I knew we had to leave quickly in order to get ahead of the inevitable exodus. I would later hear that we beat the rush by about 30 minutes. I had a brand new Eclipse at the time and I literally did over 100 all the way down 95, the only thing on my mind was getting my wife and daughter together with me. Lord only new at that time who was doing this or how far it would escalate.

9/11, a day we’ll always remember where we were, just as people did on Dec 7 ’41 and Nov 22, ’63. That morning is vivid in my memory but another thought that overrides my own situation is thinking of the hero’s who lost their lives in NY, the brave souls in PA and DC. 9/11 is for them.
:(

09-11-07, 01:47 PM

Bump.

m***********s!!!:flame:

Ankf00

09-11-07, 01:53 PM

http://www2.hornfans.com/wwwthreads/images/icons/flag.gif

was dragged out of bed that morning by a dormmate who was a rabid bush hater and would end up serving as an infantry officer in an army intelligence outfit, ended up on the cover of the alumni mag with his essay about his service, one of the only copies I still save.

no one had a clue what was happening, only the guys with 8am's were up by that point, 2 mins of TV watching and then the 2nd one hit. thankfully the couple of fam friends I have that worked in there weren't in the office yet or out of town for biz

dando

09-11-07, 01:56 PM

http://www.groundzerospirit.org/images/splash_firemenw.jpg
(c) 2001 The Record, (Bergen County, NJ).

Never forget!

KLang

09-11-07, 02:19 PM

Never forget. :(

racermike

09-11-07, 02:20 PM

I had a long day ahead of me, and wanted to get to work at 7am to get a head start on some drawings I was working on.

I woke up at 5:15am, but slept in a few more minutes and had the morning ABC news on. I overheard the newscaster saying "this is live footage from NYC, as a small plane is believed to have hit the WTC". I sat up and started watching, amazed at what I was seeing on TV, and from my opionion, it was not a small plane. (at that point, nobody really knew wtf was happening).

I hopped in the shower at 5:45am, and Mark & Brian (syndicated show from LA) were starting their radio broadcast early, and talking about what was happening in NYC (as they were watching their TV in the studio).

I got dressed, still keeping an eye on the TV, and saw the 2nd plane enter the screen and hit WTC2, and nearly collapsed to the floor realizing this was in fact, a terrorist attack of some sort.

I was still gonna head to the office, and was just going to turn off the TV, and head out to catch my Bus, when WTC2 collapsed. I just utterly could not believe what I just saw, and actually wondered if I was dreaming all this, or if it was in fact real.

Everyone on the Bus was listening to their radio's, and talking about other attacks (that were not in fact happening), but the rumors were running rampant that morning. I got downtown, to connect to 2nd bus, and could hear fighter jets circling over the downtown area. Was VERY eerie.

We ended up not getting anything done at the office, as maybe 5 out of the 25 of us showed up. We were the ones that didnt get the phone calls in time from boss to just take the day off.

Looking back today, it still seems like it was all a bad dream, and its very surreal to think about how our lives all changed that day.

That night, once the realization set in, I did cry while watching the news coverage, mostly when they were showing clips and playing "Imagine" from John Lennon.

dando

09-11-07, 02:42 PM

Where were you when the world stopped turin'
On that September day,
Out in the yard your wife and children
Or workin on some stage in LA
Did you stand there in shock
At the sight of that black smoke risin' against that blue sky
Did you shout out in anger and fear for your neighbor
Or did you just sit down and cry
Did you weep for the children who lost their dear loved ones
And pray for the ones who dont know
Did you rejoice for the people who walked from the rubble
And sob for the ones left below
Did you burst out in pride for the red white and blue
And the heros who died just foin what they do
Did you look up to heaven for some kind of answer
And look at yourself and what really matters

*Chorus*
Im just a singer of simple songs
Im not a real political man
I watch CNN but im not sure i can tell you
The difference in Iraq and Iran
I know Jesus and i talk to god
And i remember this from when i was young
Fate hope and love are some good things he gave us
And the greatest is love

Where were you when the world stopped turing
On that September day
Teachin' a class full of innocent children
Or diving dow some cold interstate
Did you feel guilty cuz you're a survivor
In a crowded room did you feel alone
Did you call up your mother and tell her you love her
Did you dust off that bible at home
Did you open your eyes and hope it never happened
Colse your eyes and not go to sleep
Did you notice the sunset for the first time in ages
Or speak to some strager on the street
Did you lay down at night and think of tomorrow
Go out an buy you a gun
Did you turn off that violent old movie you're watchin'
And turn on 'I Love Lucy' re-runs
Did you go to church and hold hands with some stangers
And stand in line and give your own blood
Did you just stay home and cling tight to your family
Thank god you had somebody to love

Theres a blood red circle
On the cold dark ground
And the rain is falling down
The church doors blown open
I can hear the organs song
But the congregations gone

My city of ruins
My city of ruins

Now the sweet veils of mercy
Drift through the evening trees
Young men on the corner
Like scattered leaves
The boarded up windows
The hustlers and thieves
While my brothers down on his knees

My city of ruins
My city of ruins

Come on rise up!
Come on rise up!

Now theres tears on the pillow
Darling where we slept
And you took my heart when you left
Without your sweet kiss
My soul is lost, my friend
Now tell me how do I begin again?

My citys in ruins
My citys in ruins

Now with these hands
I pray lord
With these hands
For the strength lord
With these hands
For the faith lord
With these hands
I pray lord
With these hands
For the strength lord
With these hands
For the faith lord
With these hands

Come on rise up!
Come on rise up!
Rise up

rabbit

09-11-07, 05:41 PM

Andrew Longman

09-11-07, 05:47 PM

The first tower was hit while I was on the drive to work. Sometime Imus sportscaster Warner Wolf lives downtown near the WTC and provided gut wrenching testimonial that morning via the phone. At one point in my drive I cover some high ground and could see smoke in the direction of NYC. By the time I got to work the second tower had been hit and it was pretty clear this was terrorism.

I tried to work but left early. I wanted to be home in time to walk the kids home from school. I thought long and hard about how to explain what happened to a second grader and kindergartner. And I thought about the new world they faced.

I had a nightmare at work for the next few weeks. Our workforce was almost entirely distributed at our our client sites and with the airlines shut down I had to figure out how to meet as many client commitments as possible without using airlines to move them around. Failure could have bankrupt the company.

At the same time the thing I remember most in the weeks following was the silence of no aircraft overhead. Just silence except the occasional military craft. I also remember the AWACs causing interference on our TV reception. A reminder even at 2 am that the sentries were out.

In the days and weeks that followed, every few days I'd learn of someone else I knew who lost someone in the towers. The brother of my wife's roommate was a firefighter in WC2. I have friends with kids in an Old Bridge school that lost dozens of parents.

With time we also need to remember that we need to have perspective. This was a spectacular, nearly unprecidented and eye opening terrorist attack on US soil. But our repsonse is questionable. Fighting (militarily) ideology with ideology is not wise. 3000 souls were lost, but we must ensure we don't lose more than souls.

I will never forget, but I will also not forget the principles that many Americans fought and died to defend.

Andrew Longman

09-11-07, 05:48 PM

Words failed me.

And that may be the greatest damage created by Bin Laden

spinner26

09-11-07, 07:25 PM

six years now, THANK YOU to all those who so unselfishly give of themselves to protect this great nation.:thumbup:

NEVER FORGET!

Gnam

09-11-07, 09:03 PM

I was shaken awake by my dad with news that two planes had hit the buildings. My first thought was that I hoped the hijackers weren't Americans. (there's one difference for your class, rabbit)

That day shook me up so bad, that every day for a year afterward, I would turn on the tv as soon as I woke up, to make sure the world was still there. 'cause one morning I woke up and it wasn't.

I'm still surprised at the strength of the emotions pictures of that day bring up. I didn't know anyone on the planes, in the buildings, or their families, but the loss felt close and personal. Then there was the anger. It felt like something was taken from me, and whoever did it was gonna pay, and then their families were gonna pay. Then there was the warm fuzzy feeling that the whole country cared and wanted to help ease the pain.

Funny how one day can make you feel so many emotions all at once.

WickerBill

09-11-07, 11:25 PM

I look at this web archive every 9/11: September 12 newspaper headlines (http://www.newseum.org/todaysfrontpages/default_archive.asp?p_size=110)

The one this particular site used to use as its lead-in to the archive:

http://www.newseum.org/media/tfp_archive/2001-09-12/lg/CA_SFE.jpg

Sorry 'bout the language breach, Boss.

09-11-07, 11:38 PM

I saved all the Chicago Tribs for a while post attack. IIRC, they even did a special edition on the 11th in the evening. Might have to check that.

Edit: I checked. No special section saved, so memory must be off.

But I did save the first copy of The Onion, post-attack. ;) Slightly stronger language than WB's front page.

dando

09-11-08, 12:55 PM

.

:(

Never forget.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_hhTsiN5O4qw/RuaRIRXGHQI/AAAAAAAAAbY/s9f5FTiaJuk/s1600/9-11c.jpg

Elmo T

09-11-08, 03:10 PM

Gnam

09-11-11, 01:51 AM

10 years later and it still hurts. :(

I don't want to watch any of those rememberance specials, but I enjoyed flipping through the construction photos of the new towers rising in Lower Manhattan: http://www.wtc.com/media/images/construction

Something hopeful about new steel going up. :)

Kiwifan

09-11-11, 03:40 AM

Thinking of you guys today.

The USA Rugby Team had a moving Service here in NZ today., our 9/11

dando

09-11-11, 08:37 AM

fvj6zdWLUuk

God bless.

-Kevin

Elmo T

09-11-11, 09:09 AM

From October 2001 by Peggy Noonan - still the finest piece written about the emergency responders that day:

Courage Under Fire (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122409853782837359.html)

So: The firemen were rough repositories of grace. They were the goodness that comes out when society is cracked open. They were responsible. They took responsibility under conditions of chaos. They did their job under heavy fire, stood their ground, claimed new ground, moved forward like soldiers against the enemy. They charged.

Mary

09-11-11, 09:18 AM

Hi everybody.

I don't post here too much, but I knew many of you from SeventhGear, Speedcenter, SpeedNet and even rec.auto.sports.Indy!

Just wanted to post today to tell you all that I will always remember how kind you were to me on 9/11/2001. I was a regular SeventhGear poster in those days. Someone started a thread asking New York area peeps to check in. When I didn't, the posts were increasingly desperate.

When I finally got home that night, something made me take a look (I'd been having computer problems). I think I wanted some normality. Anyway, I saw that thread and replied. I'll never, ever, forget it or you.

So much has changed since then, and so much is the same. I truly miss CART; never really got into Champcar and eventually switched my forum time to Runner's World (I ran a little when I still posted on SeventhGear). I watch F1 (have Monza on now) but just cannot bring myself to even give the IRL, oopos, IndyCar a chance. Had I been a driver or team owner, I would have switched, but as a fan I have no vested interest and don't care to watch. I am a big CART YouTube fan nowadays, though. Kinda sad. I actually check here at least once a week, and will likely continue to, but I seldom post. Those of you with more gumption than me, keep fighting the good fight.

9/11 victims - RIP. We will never forget you.

Mary

KLang

09-11-11, 09:33 AM

Haven't forgotten. :(

I am avoiding the TV today. The memories are still so vivid I don't really need a reminder.

dando

09-11-11, 09:46 AM

gjc2

09-11-11, 11:02 AM

I have so many images in my mind of that day. I live and work in the suburbs of New York City. I remember the cars parked at the Long Island Rail Road stations for days, the plume of smoke from ground zero. I know people who never came home. In the weeks after, my mother said it reminded her of World War Two, when wherever you went there was someone who lost someone. About a month before I was in city near the WTC for dinner with my significant other, she had never been to the top of the towers, I suggested we go to Windows on the World, she said "we’re not dressed for it, maybe next time". Whenever I went over the Verrazano Narrows Bridge I would look at the skyline, from that vantage the towers dominated the view, only recently have I started to look again. I also know people who would have been in the towers if not for a “quirk of fate”. When we left work that day I said tomorrow would be worse, we would start hearing about people we knew, and it was.

Insomniac

09-11-11, 12:58 PM

Thanks for posting guys. I thought maybe I was a weirdo for just avoiding all these things on TV. It's all seared into my brain. It doesn't seem like it happened 10 years ago.

Andrew Longman

09-11-11, 12:59 PM

Indy

09-11-11, 09:40 PM

Brilliant post, Andrew.

nrc

09-11-11, 10:04 PM

God bless those that were lost, those that have suffered loss, and those that have served. Maybe we haven't gotten everything right in the aftermath but our challenge is to never forget and never stop trying.

Andrew Longman

09-13-11, 06:53 PM

Brilliant post, Andrew.Thanks. That makes me feel less isolated.

Brilliant? I don't do brilliant.

But this was a great interview and a good use of your 60 minutes. http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/11884

Really. If the day or event means anything, I have almost no quarrel with his POV (which I only saw last night)

Elmo T

09-13-11, 08:49 PM

And I will be suspicious of those who want to glomb onto the service of others and/or wallow in faux self importance or national self pity.

There were so many invitations to special services over the past week. I decided earlier on not to attend any. Though well intentioned - many seemed self-serving. There were speeches, blessings of fire apparatus, memorial dedications with WTC steel, politicians blowing hot air, talk of brotherhood by 18yo firefighters, etc, etc, etc. I pay my respects at the Fallen Fighters Memorial each time I am on the campus of the National Fire Academy. I will do just that when teaching there this weekend.

While I may be a firefighter, I could never align myself with what those responders and citizens did that day. They were in a class by themselves. We've all paid our respects - time to look forward.

RaceGrrl

09-14-11, 06:50 PM

Video about the boatlift on 9/11/01 that rescued those stranded by the attacks.

MDOrzF7B2Kg

Racing Truth

09-14-11, 08:34 PM

Ten years ago, that was a bad weird day. I remember thinking at the time, the weight of my responsibilities around how I "showed up" walking Melissa and Trevor home from school, trying to find the right way to explain what happened, and was certainly going to happen in the next days and months, even years to their young mind.

But I also remember feeling far worse on the one year anniversary. To this day, while I don't know exactly what our response should have been as a nation, I am pretty sure we didn't and still aren't getting it right. That depressed and scared me more than anything that happened on 9/11 itself.

I felt that again at a football game on Friday night, in a town that lost a lot of parents. The remembrance seemed too self serving. Too off point. Like we really did lose something that day, not because it was taken, but because we allowed ourselves to not hold onto it and hold something much cheaper instead.

Look, I'm not trying to offend anyone and I don't want to get all political -- actually I think this is far bigger than that. The lost sense of purpose, humanity, universal truth, service, optimism, hope and opportunity and possibility, has hurt far too many people I know in really severe ways. And I think it has hurt the nation tremendously.

For me, I want to honor this day by making it as normal and full of promise as I can.

But I won't forget either those who served and fell that day. Or their loved ones. I know too many personally. And I will be suspicious of those who want to glomb onto the service of others and/or wallow in faux self importance or national self pity.

This might be one of the most challenging posts ever at OC. Challenging, but basically right. I, for one, could only watch so many of the rememberances last week. Maybe it was the national self-pity/importance to it. Don't get me wrong, memorials are appropriate (I think the Ground Zero one is very well done) and I get that 10 yrs. is an important date. And yet...

And yet, did 9/11 change us or, more sobering, did we allow it to do so? I think this story (if true) (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/09/flying-while-half-arab-and-half-jewish-this-one-is-shocking/244984/) rather suggests the latter. More than that, it suggests that we didn't so much surrender to the security state as we did embrace it and ask for it. Perhaps it's understandable, but make no mistake, broadly speaking, the choice was ours.

To be sure, we got some things right. There has never been a violent reaction to American Muslims, for one, something to be truly applauded. No spree of Mosque torchings, etc. I'm not sure if Western Europe would have reacted so well. But we did lose things too.

Our innocence is one casualty, but many would argue that started 11/22/63. More than that, I fear, we lost perspective. We thought 1989-'01 was "The End of History." The Cold War was over, unipolar hegemony ruled the day, pesce for all. That was arrogant. But it was equally arrogant (or an overreaction) to say on 9-12-01 "The world changed." Fundamentally, it did not. Terrorism, even Islamist terrorism, had existed long before then (ask the Brits, Israelis, etc) and yet, we now decided that policy and culture should be viewed almost solely through a 9/11 lens.

Obviously, it was a very important event, but it was our choice to let it affect us in such an all-encompassing way. It's no wonder we all made some poor decisions.

Time and distance have given us some of that perspective back. That's a good thing, folks, not a bad thing. Never forget, yes, but also, move on, with our lives and as a nation.

racer2c

09-14-11, 11:06 PM

This might be one of the most challenging posts ever at OC. Challenging, but basically right. I, for one, could only watch so many of the rememberances last week. Maybe it was the national self-pity/importance to it. Don't get me wrong, memorials are appropriate (I think the Ground Zero one is very well done) and I get that 10 yrs. is an important date. And yet...

And yet, did 9/11 change us or, more sobering, did we allow it to do so? I think this story (if true) (http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/09/flying-while-half-arab-and-half-jewish-this-one-is-shocking/244984/) rather suggests the latter. More than that, it suggests that we didn't so much surrender to the security state as we did embrace it and ask for it. Perhaps it's understandable, but make no mistake, broadly speaking, the choice was ours.

To be sure, we got some things right. There has never been a violent reaction to American Muslims, for one, something to be truly applauded. No spree of Mosque torchings, etc. I'm not sure if Western Europe would have reacted so well. But we did lose things too.

Our innocence is one casualty, but many would argue that started 11/22/63. More than that, I fear, we lost perspective. We thought 1989-'01 was "The End of History." The Cold War was over, unipolar hegemony ruled the day, pesce for all. That was arrogant. But it was equally arrogant (or an overreaction) to say on 9-12-01 "The world changed." Fundamentally, it did not. Terrorism, even Islamist terrorism, had existed long before then (ask the Brits, Israelis, etc) and yet, we now decided that policy and culture should be viewed almost solely through a 9/11 lens.

Obviously, it was a very important event, but it was our choice to let it affect us in such an all-encompassing way. It's no wonder we all made some poor decisions.

Time and distance have given us some of that perspective back. That's a good thing, folks, not a bad thing. Never forget, yes, but also, move on, with our lives and as a nation.

To me "never forget" is, of course, for those who lost their lives on that tragic day, but also for the soldiers who continue to die and fight against a faceless enemy. Mostly, however, it's a reminder that the faceless enemy is still there. It's easy to 'move on' from Monica Lewinski, but 9/11 should stay a part of the very fabric that makes up this great country. Never forget.

Indy

09-15-11, 07:48 AM

This is really what terrorism is all about, right? Manipulating a population through fear into acting against their interests.

It is indeed a shame that we responded so predictably, so fearfully. I suppose I share the unease with the memorials and rememberances because I think they celebrate a great victory over us.

Still, and I am holding back tears while typing this, I remember seeing shots on one of the networks of firemen regrouping after the first building collapsed and heading back to the site to try to save more people. Selflessness like that should be recognized.

TKGAngel

09-15-11, 02:04 PM

Though well intentioned - many seemed self-serving. There were speeches, blessings of fire apparatus, memorial dedications with WTC steel, politicians blowing hot air, talk of brotherhood by 18yo firefighters, etc, etc, etc.

Like the mayor of my esteemed city that thought adding his name & title to the 9/11 decal on newly dedicated apparatus was appropriate and wouldn't cause a fuss? (Note to Mr. Mayor: it was not and it did.)

Elmo T

09-15-11, 02:22 PM

(Note to Mr. Mayor: it was not and it did.)

:shakehead

http://i54.tinypic.com/2dcfuk7.jpg

dando

09-11-12, 11:43 AM

Never forget. :(

-Kevin

Elmo T

09-11-12, 01:01 PM

Getting out of my work truck this AM, I was approached by a young man - maybe in his late 20's. Asked if I was the Fire Marshal (casual atmosphere here - not in uniform on most days). I said that I was - fully expecting a complaint about something.

I was amazed when he said quite simply "Thank you..."

I won't ever put myself in the category of all those who made sacrifices that day - civilians, emergency workers, families, everyday people. That said, I was thrilled that someone who was just a kid that day remembers. :thumbup:

Andrew Longman

09-11-12, 02:08 PM

I'm teaching these days - junior high and high school English at a small private school. This morning I tried to talk to my seventh and eighth graders about 9/11. Only a handful of them remember that morning. And none of them can remember what the world was like before that morning. I tried to describe just how much it changed things. Words failed me.Looking back through the thread I was struck that it was started six years ago on the five year anniversary. And by the above.

My daughter is now a Senior in HS. Last year she had three teachers who became teachers as a direct result of 9/11.

One was a TWA long haul pilot who lost his job after the airline industry collapsed following 9/11. He chose to become a chemistry teacher and started an aviation program for the school district. He started in July teaching my youngest (now 13) to fly.

Another was an accountant who worked in the WTC but got out that day. He vowed never to go back and instead do something he thought was more meaningful. He became a history teacher hoping to seed his love of history into a few kids. FWIW my daughter wasn't one of them. I thought he was great but she just thought he was a nut who doesn't understand that not everyone is in love with history. (Well I tried. My youngest still likes to watch the History Channel with me... so long as it is about engineering or the like).

Another was a Princeton educated PhD chemist earning big six-figures at one of the evil NJ pharma companies. She too thought she should be doing something more important, quit and became a science teacher (apologies to anyone who has some love for pharma companies but my experience has been, well, not good. Let's just say curing disease and saving lives isn't IMO a top priority)

Yeah, the world changed. Some bad. Some good. As a country IMO we lost our collective mind for a few years, but we are starting to get it back. While I don't think we should ever forget, particularly the acts of bravery that day by so many, I am actually glad to hear that many of the memorials this year will be toned down. And I am glad that the political parties and politicians are doing far less to exploit it. But I also personally know countless people who were so traumatized by that day, or by who they lost, or by how close they came to dying themselves that they fell into years of depression and substance abuse. Many were killed by it. More eventually lost everything that was important to them. Yet some more are still to be killed by it. Some, but sadly not many have recovered.

But I do think it is appalling that Bloomberg, Cuomo and Christy can't get their act together and finish the friggin memorial at ground zero. It has become an anti-memorial to the American Spirit and what was lost (and should have been gained) that day. And I think it is appalling how we've treated the health of first responders who were there that day or spent months on the pile of rubble that was left.

Elmo T

09-11-12, 02:34 PM

While I don't think we should ever forget, particularly the acts of bravery that day by so many, I am actually glad to hear that many of the memorials this year will be toned down. And I am glad that the political parties and politicians are doing far less to exploit it.

This.

We should never forget - but that doesn't mean we need to relive it each year.

Fire departments in the area work very hard to access pieces of WTC steel to make the next memorial. Noble, I guess, but to what end? I am ashamed to say that for many of the firefighters I know, the constant "Remember the 343", etc, etc is less about paying respects than it is some sort of weeping widow mob mentality thing.

I don't have a 343 sticker on my car, or my helmet, or a 343 tattoo. I didn't attend of the many services today. The local schools had quite a few. I don't need to constant reminders to never forget.

Rex Karz

09-11-12, 05:58 PM

Though 11 years have gone by since that day, I'm finding it harder and harder to even think about what happened. Maybe it's because there are now stories that this person decided on his/her own to leave their tower. There was also a show on TV today about some reporter who tried to find the name of the person who was photographed jumping off the WTC. Never really got to positively ID the person, but is reasonably certain they know the person's name. You know, all of these little details that on this day were a matter of life and death, details that are only now coming out.

A lot of us should live to a time when a grainy video of that day is shown to those who were either too young to remember or were not yet born. I remember years ago meeting someone who wasn't born until about 10 years or so after JFK was killed. And I remember Nov. 22, 1963, with probably about as much clarity as I remember Sept. 11, 2001. When I met this person, at first I was truly shocked that "anyone" could be alive that did not remember the JFK assasination. But then I realized that, yes, time continues, no matter what.

In an emotional sense, I closed the door on the death of JFK a number of years ago. But I still can't do that for 9/11. Maybe it's because so many died, rather than just one person, even if that person was the President.

Those who were alive on Dec. 7, 1941, likewise remember that day too, though now their numbers are shrinking. One day those people, and the rest of those who also remember these other really awful days in our nation's history, will be gone too. And it will then be the task of the historians to debate the causes, effects, and details.

To all who perished eleven years ago (except for those few who committed mass murder) may you all rest in peace. As long as we are alive, we will not forget.

Indy

09-11-12, 06:48 PM

This.

We should never forget - but that doesn't mean we need to relive it each year.

Fire departments in the area work very hard to access pieces of WTC steel to make the next memorial. Noble, I guess, but to what end? I am ashamed to say that for many of the firefighters I know, the constant "Remember the 343", etc, etc is less about paying respects than it is some sort of weeping widow mob mentality thing.

I don't have a 343 sticker on my car, or my helmet, or a 343 tattoo. I didn't attend of the many services today. The local schools had quite a few. I don't need to constant reminders to never forget.

I am with you on this one. I don't make a point of visiting my brother's grave on the date of his death, and I don't understand while people insist on grieving by a date on the calendar. Were people obsessed with Pearl Harbor on December 7, 1952? I don't think so, and it seems that we have lost some fortitude since then.

What really irritates me is that the military/surveillance state is now taken for granted. Everyone says not to forget 9/11, but they can't seem to remember that they used to enjoy considerably more freedom under our constitution. Maybe I will start a movement to "Remember the Bill of Rights."

Indy

09-11-12, 06:49 PM

I should probably pre-emptively apologize for the above comments. They were cruel and insensitive, and I wouldn't want to offend anyone.

Or end up on the president's "kill list."

Andrew Longman

09-12-12, 01:07 AM

I should probably pre-emptively apologize for the above comments. Nope. Not here anyway. I doubt it I am alone, given polling numbers that seem to be pretty duplication and repetitive. People know who to blame.

And especially since you have a personally relevant gravestone in your life, your grief is entirely your business and should not be the source of political advantage/grandstanding or popular shoulder-chip-carryng resulting in a popular distraction from the really important issues of the nation.

RaceGrrl

09-11-13, 01:41 PM

dando

09-11-13, 01:49 PM

Thanks, Grrl. I went looking for this thread, but got distracted (squirrel!). ;)

http://wapc.mlb.com/play/?content_id=18652293&topic_id=16401516

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvj6zdWLUuk

nrc

09-11-13, 02:13 PM

What really irritates me is that the military/surveillance state is now taken for granted. Everyone says not to forget 9/11, but they can't seem to remember that they used to enjoy considerably more freedom under our constitution. Maybe I will start a movement to "Remember the Bill of Rights."

Bares repeating now more than ever. I don't understand this obsessive desire to be protected from every minuscule threat. We want the government to protect us from everything except, it would seem, that same government violating our privacy and kicking down our doors.

dando

09-11-13, 02:17 PM

Bares repeating now more than ever. I don't understand this obsessive desire to be protected from every minuscule threat. We want the government to protect us from everything except, it would seem, that same government violating our privacy and kicking down our doors.

The same peeps that are NIMBY card carriers. :\

Elmo T

09-11-13, 02:35 PM

cameraman

09-11-13, 02:39 PM

Please protect us from the unknown boogeyman. :saywhat:

There are times that I wonder if we've all lost our heads a bit. Our local PD is buying an MRAP.

Are IEDs that much of an issue back east?:rolleyes:

dando

09-11-13, 03:30 PM

Please protect us from the unknown boogeyman. :saywhat:

There are times that I wonder if we've all lost our heads a bit. Our local PD is buying an MRAP.

On Topic - I took this photo adjacent to the National Fallen Firefighters Memorial. A larger than life statute celebrating ordinary firefighters who did their job:

http://i42.tinypic.com/2dbpb1s.jpg

:thumbup: :thumbup:

The girls and I walk past our local PD/FD homage on the way to the theater/Columbus Commons (what was a mall). I ask them to give respect every time.

Meanwhile, my brothers on two wheels respect...

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/sep/11/2-million-bikers-roar-dc-honor-911-protest-muslim-/

Elmo T

09-11-13, 03:36 PM

Gnam

09-11-13, 04:15 PM

A 9-11 memorial was built in town this summer between a city parking lot and the Kohl's department store. They dedicated it today. It's made up of half a dozen steel columns sticking vertically out of the ground with frosted glass panels mounted between them. On each panel are the names of the victims organized by location: Tower 1, Tower 2, Pentagon, Flight 93.

The beams are HUGE. Hard to believe anything could bend or break them, but the ripped and torn edges prove otherwise. It is a very nice memorial that effectively brings back memories of the jagged steel beams pointing up out of that smoking debris pile, but something feels off.

The memorials for the victims are in New York and at the Pentagon and in a field in Pennsylvaina. They connect the visitor with the site of the actual events and provide a perspective that where once all was chaos, there is now peace, or at least order. In comparison, these satellite memorials in cities and towns across the US, complete with remains from the Towers stuck in the ground like some trophy, offer no perspective only spectacle. "Remember 9-11! Look, look at the big beams! As seen on TV!"

A more cynical view of the memorials is that their purpose is not to remind us of the victims (for who could ever forget that morning?) but to remind future generations that they could be next. That, and Kohl's is having a 50% Off Fall Sale. :p

Never forget. Hug your family. :)

cameraman

09-11-13, 04:37 PM

Lots of federal money being pushed to locals.

Unless you are with the NIH/NSF:irked:

So there is a dedication going on today of the Utah September 11th and Serviceman Memorial at the Utah State University Botanical Center. It is quite the large memorial but I can't find a decent photo of it. Lots of pictures of veterans and fire/police at the memorial but none of the memorial.

It's a kneeling NYFD fire fighter holding a baby looking at the sky...

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/Cynops/statue.jpg

Why a reversed US flag on the shoulder of the turnout gear? FDNY doesn't have that on their gear.

Elmo T

09-11-13, 05:23 PM

Why a reversed US flag on the shoulder of the turnout gear? FDNY doesn't have that on their gear.

Flags are "reversed" to appear that they are moving with the direction of the person/object. Person viewed as marching from my left to right - the flag will appear reversed.

Now why to add it? :rolleyes:

Like the unnecessary political correctness of changing the race of the original firefighter 911 statue. :rolleyes:

nrc

09-11-13, 05:23 PM

Gov't surplus apparently. We already have a Bearcat and 2 APC's. That is not counting used armored cars they have too. That is countywide not a single PD - if that matters.

Lots of federal money being pushed to locals.

I found it really chilling during the Boston Marathon bombing events to see police roaming the streets in camouflage with the city in a state of essentially martial law.

I've read good reviews of this book but I'm not sure it would benefit my mindset.

538 (http://www.amazon.com/Rise-Warrior-Cop-Militarization-Americas/dp/1610392116)

Andrew Longman

09-11-13, 07:00 PM

I just spent 13 days in the wilderness at Isle Royale National Park- an island 60 miles out in the middle of Lake Superior with nothing much but moose, wolves, red squirrels, snow shoe rabbits and Mosquitos. It was my sixth trip there but first in many years.

The rangers all are pretty nerdy wildlife geeks who do a few years of volunteer work before getting a permanent job... Except this time I had a "cop ranger" walk into my campsite all bad ass confrontational with his bulletproof vest and 9mm Glock wanting to see my permit. And he had the most tricked out bad ass boat he cruised around in. Pissed me off no end.

Funny thing is over the two weeks I was there I ran into him a few times and he softened, I found out he went to NMU as I did, he asked me for a favor, and told me he was not really happy being a bad ass cop ranger.

But post 9/11 there is homeland security money for this and an expectation that cop work has to be done a certain way. Even on an island 60 miles in the middle of a 48 degree lake

Tifosi24

09-11-13, 07:33 PM

I didn't realize Isle Royale is the front of the war on terror. But, if money's given to you, or must be spent, it will get spent. See portable smart board in my office paid for with federal dollars.

Elmo T

09-11-13, 08:06 PM

The money was flowing, not as much nowadays. PD>FD>EMS as the money goes.

We had this make the news last year - local FD on the Delaware River with a $1M fireboat. Which they sunk.

Fire volunteers' dream boat is a major drain (http://articles.philly.com/2012-07-30/news/32924329_1_dream-boat-armored-car-union-chiefs)

What's a tiny volunteer fire company in Bensalem doing with a $1 million taxpayer-funded fireboat tricked out to troll the Delaware River for blazes, bodies, terrorists, and IEDs?

Nothing, besides preening for festival crowds and crashing into objects seen and unseen.

The tale of how the dysfunctional Union Fire Company won a wad of Homeland Security money to buy a state-of-the-art terror-taming boat screams post-9/11 planning at its nuttiest.

We've always had SWAT (we call it SERT). Now we have heavily armed and equipped SERT - as noted in my earlier post. SERT has a unit trained specifically for hazmat/WMD incidents. SERT guys in chemical "moon suits".

We also have MIRT - a lesser tactical PD unit designed for crowd control at major incidents. MIRT has an array of chemical weapons detection equipment that nearly rivals my hazmat team. And they getting their own chemical protective suits. And riot gear.

My hazmat team has benefitted too - grant money has paid for two of our trucks. But the trucks are used for all hazmat calls - they are not limited use. My rationalization I guess.

I can absolutely create the scenario where it would be needed. But using realistic and proper risk assessment.....:saywhat:

So how did we get this from a handful of terrorists hijacking planes?

chop456

09-12-13, 01:20 AM

I just spent 13 days in the wilderness at Isle Royale National Park- an island 60 miles out in the middle of Lake Superior with nothing much but moose, wolves, red squirrels, snow shoe rabbits and Mosquitos. It was my sixth trip there but first in many years.

Great place. Minong or Greenstone?

Wife and her dad have been many times. I did 8 days in 2004 and plan to do it again. You don't realize how big a moose is until there's one staring at you from 40' away.

Andrew Longman

09-12-13, 01:30 AM

Great place. Minong or Greenstone?.Both. Never did Feldstone and many of the outer islands. Saving that for when I can no longer walk and can only kayak. My favorite place on the planet. I am a better person when I am there.

Rogue Leader

09-12-13, 01:57 PM

I wish my fire dept could get some of this federal grant money. We are volunteer, and we actually did respond into NYC to the trade center. We have to fight for every penny. At least people actually liked us for a few months, then they went back to the usual cutting off the fire truck, and saying that we spend all our money on beer and parties and are useless and unprofessional. For the record, I have over 1000 hours of formal training alone over the past 15 years, done on my own time, not including the countless hours we put in on our own practice/trainings.

Short version of a long story that I probably posted somewhere in here, went to the WTC for a day, got very sick a couple years later (pneumonia twice, constant sinus problems), sinus surgery in 2010, the WTC program monitors my health every year, never felt better.

Elmo T

09-12-13, 02:42 PM

I wish my fire dept could get some of this federal grant money. We are volunteer, and we actually did respond into NYC to the trade center. .

All volunteer FD here - though 4 departments in County now have career folks in daytime with SAFER money paying the costs (for now). Not sure how it pans out in the long term for them.

The boat in that link went to a volly department.

The majority of the grant money coming into the area here comes to the regional task force (don't say terrorism task force anymore :rolleyes:). We are part of the 5 county task force that includes Philly. We also get UASI money.

Aren't you all chasing down AFG money?

Rogue Leader

09-12-13, 03:45 PM

All volunteer FD here - though 4 departments in County now have career folks in daytime with SAFER money paying the costs (for now). Not sure how it pans out in the long term for them.

The boat in that link went to a volly department.

The majority of the grant money coming into the area here comes to the regional task force (don't say terrorism task force anymore :rolleyes:). We are part of the 5 county task force that includes Philly. We also get UASI money.

Aren't you all chasing down AFG money?

We did manage to get a grant some years ago for a training trailer, its got a propane system to simulate live fire. In the past 10 (i guess) years we have had it, the maybe 7 or 8 times it actually worked right it was great. Most of the time its broken, it was built like crap and the company behind it is good at band-aids.

I don't know the full story as I don't handle the money side of it, but from what I do know we are usually denied it for various reasons (budget is to big, stuff like that) meanwhile they forget the fact that everything from water to electric to vehicle maintenance costs more here (hence the budget size).

On a side note, I have friends who live in Doylestown, they run the Rally Baby race team in Lemons and hang out at the Penn Taproom, I went there last december to hang out with them, good times.

Elmo T

09-30-13, 08:40 AM

Are IEDs that much of an issue back east?:rolleyes:

Apparently they are sending them out all over the place. Original cost was $600K - $1M. I hear local cost is $1500.

Headed to OSU game? The campus PD will be well protected:

Ohio State University Acquires Military-Style Armored Truck (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/18/ohio-state-university-armored-truck_n_3949750.html)

http://i44.tinypic.com/2popheq.jpg

But with an absence of IED's buried in the roads of Columbus, Ohio, what does OSU need this thing for?

Campus Police Chief Paul Denton told The Huffington Post that it's a "multi hazard kind of response vehicle." He cited a number of scenarios where it could be useful. Among them: natural disasters, like tornadoes and derechos, or bomb threats and shootings.

dando

09-30-13, 08:55 AM

Elmo, you need to see some of the other 'gadgets' the CPD has for gameday. :saywhat: Flipping insane. That being said, those measures are needed to keep Don Q. and his posse from burning couches and dumpsters. :gomer: :p

'Fun' story...when I was attending tOSU circa 1986, I was with a group of friends on The Oval after The Game (we like our The :)), and a paper bag landed in the middle of the group. Tear gas. :saywhat:

Andrew Longman

09-30-13, 05:09 PM

The Yankees (and Phillies) play 81 home games every year to huge drunken and disorderly crowds and nothing has ever happened to suggest a scenario is even possible that would require something like this. Even NYC in general which actually as been attacked repeatedly by terrorists wouldn't ever have been helped by such a "tool". Perhaps, just perhaps, getting hit by another 250 year storm like Sandy would require a half dozen to wade through flooded areas.

There is such a thing as boys and their toys and there is such a thing as Homeland Security Personal and their pork. This has to be worth more than $1500 as scrap. especialy if you add in the cost of maintenence and storage.

IMHO giving authorities these things only contributes to the militarization of our police and increases the likelihood they will be used when more reasonable tactics would actually be more effective and less likely to prompt an commesurate response from whoever you are trying to police. Emphasis on "police", as in the public, not "defeat" as in an opposing force.

I went to Yankees games in the 70s when it really was a zoo and nothing ever really happened, even when fans would occasionally mob the field. It was fine. NYC cops knew how to handle a crowd by dealing with only the most threatening and actually arresting few of them. They would cajole, use humor and if that didn't work you might eventually get threated with a smack down. We would mock the Phillies who would trot out several dozen of Mayor Rizzo's "Raiders" on horseback to line the field in the ninth inning to intimidate people from running on the field.

We've come a long way when today cops think they need $million 19 ton behemoths. I guess they didn't see what happened to the LAPD armored assault carrier in Die Hard.:gomer: rant off.

Gnam

09-30-13, 07:12 PM

Some corners of the internet say the militarization of the police is designed to desensitize the public to seeing military equipment on the street. If people get used to cops looking like soldiers, they won't be as surprised when they start acting like UN controlled New World Order storm troopers. ;)

The question is will tOSU keep the desert paint scheme, paint it all black, or in white/red/grey team colors? :gomer:

dando

09-30-13, 09:40 PM

Apparently they are sending them out all over the place. Original cost was $600K - $1M. I hear local cost is $1500.

Headed to OSU game? The campus PD will be well protected:

Ohio State University Acquires Military-Style Armored Truck (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/18/ohio-state-university-armored-truck_n_3949750.html)

http://i44.tinypic.com/2popheq.jpg

BTW, not to be trite, but this reminds me of Die Hard. 'We're going to need to get some more FBI guys.'. ;) For years that was a tradition to watch before Xmas. :)

RaceGrrl

09-30-13, 09:59 PM

"Four dead in Ohio" :(

Andrew Longman

09-30-13, 10:10 PM

"Four dead in Ohio" :(i appreciate your humor (or was it not an attempt) but Kent State was a traumatic event of my youth. I guess the event sorta makes my point. And walking today through Penn Station NYC past cops and NG with body armor and M4s 12 years after 9/11 makes me and everyone I know uncomfortable. Reminds me of seeing soldiers with machine guns in the Instabul airport as a kid. much Creepy. We are better than Turkey.

RaceGrrl

09-30-13, 10:35 PM

It was not an attempt at humor. It was a dead serious remark made because Kent State is something *I* remember as well. I may have only been a child at the time but I remember the headlines and news coverage of it. I am extremely uncomfortable with the militarization of our law enforcement officers. I thought the fairly obvious point was that if the National Guard cannot be trusted not to shoot citizens, then campus police are no more trustworthy.

Gnam

10-01-13, 12:12 AM

Mrs. Boss is wise.

To be honest, though, if I could buy one of those trucks for $1,500, I totally would. :D

Andrew Longman

10-01-13, 06:30 AM

I thought the fairly obvious point was that if the National Guard cannot be trusted not to shoot citizens, then campus police are no more trustworthy.Sorry. It was obvious.
I was just tired and distracted by events of the day. Excellent point crisply made.

Elmo T

10-01-13, 08:34 AM

It is not just the police ramping up their capabilities. They absolutely are doing this with mostly grant money and discounts on MRAPs, etc. Boys and their toys is probably not a bad assessment. But there is also a push to be prepared. Prepared for active shooters, terrorists, WMD, IED's, speeding cars on your street, bank robbers, molesters, and all other forms of evil.

But it is everywhere - not just PD. I saw the conductor on the NJ Transit train wearing a radiation detection pager. Those big ball games? I guarantee the police and security are wearing them too. I know they are in Philly.

FD "special ops" are getting new hardware. Mass decontamination trailers and vastly increased technical rescue capabilities. The Urban Search and Rescue Teams (I think each state has at least one) are highly trained and well equipped. Grants have provided fire boats, WMD detection equipment, robots, and $ to fund the salaries of new firefighters and police officers.

Schools all have locking sally ports. Lock down drills are as common as fire drills. Schools get active shooter training.

Commercial and industrial centers have increased security. I had to pass through an explosives detection portal monitor before I could travel up in the CN Tower this summer.

We moved past "stranger danger" with our kids - every community fair has a booth to get your kids fingerprinted. Which, IMHO, only helps ID the body :saywhat:. They are making bulletproof wipeboards and bulletproof backpacks for kids.

Free flu shots are given on a specific day here - and that day is more about testing the health department's capability for handling a pandemic than it is the flu shots. You will see a heavily armed police presence exercising their security function at the flu shot day.

Home security systems with web cameras, remote monitoring, increasing carry permits, etc, etc, etc. I could go on and on.

BUT - why? What is the fundamental change? I don't buy the conspiracies and I won't lay blame on the agencies themselves. I feel the pressure (a responder, as a gov't worker, as a civilian) from the community and gov't to be prepared for anything and to make attempts to be 100% safe.

Do we REALLY want to live this way - spend our money this way - live in fear of the boogie man in all his forms (both natural and man-made)?? :(:confused: