unhappy drivers

[rabbit]

A friend, who knows Sam Hornish and talks to him semi-frequently, told me earlier this week that Sam told him Franchitti and Kanaan have both told him that they made a big mistake and they wish they'd never left CART.

(Just to confirm what we've been hearing for a while)

[DaveL]

Eff 'em.

I guess all of those Honda Yen don't buy happiness. They made their beds, they can lie in them.

[pchall]

Unfortunately, both of them are in hospital beds now. :(

[devilmaster]

Maybe they realized that although he now owns the team, the one thing the owner couldn't buy, was a personality. :shakehead

Steve

[Sean O'Gorman]

Maybe they are now afraid of racing against Hornish after his threats against the ex-CART drivers. Yeah, thats it. :laugh:

[Ziggy]

Note to message board patrons

pchall owes me one key board cleaning!

serious dude, give it some set up!

Ziggy

[pchall]

I've got Castrol SuperClean in a spritzer bottle and plenty of swabs and pads.

Will travel.

Of course, there is the risk that your motorsports library will be looted like a Baghdad museum after I'm there. ;)

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by DaveL
Eff 'em.

I guess all of those Honda Yen don't buy happiness. They made their beds, they can lie in them.

I don't agree with that, Sorry DaveL. If they start to admit that then it is a valuable thing for CART. If they come back, that's an even bigger statement. You had a feeling that many of them would feel this way. The only one that hasn't is Helio Castroneves because he is getting a major ego stroking in the IRL. Unfortunately, my worry is cases like Gil deFerran who always was a class act and who I wanted to see back in CART. Now with his repeated injuries, he is starting to look like Christian Fittipaldi. I am worried that the IRL will wreck these guys careers physically due to the many accidents and then they won't really have many choices. Not all of them want to be there. We honestly don't walk in their shoes and have to think about paycheques, their families and what they consider when thinking about a racing future......And being in a hospital bed is NOT the bed I want them lying in, ever..........
Sorry DaveL, I'm not taking your words out of context here or putting any in your mouth. Nobody think that. Just elaborating for myself. I just don't like the way many write them off because they drive in the IRL. I myself think many of the men that left have talent and would like to see them back in CART again. Better than Lavin........I also think that coming back would make a statement we need in CART.........:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

[DaveL]

Originally posted by RaceChic
I myself think many of the men that left have talent and would like to see them back in CART again. Better than Lavin........

Anyone is an upgrade over Lavin, but that's not the point.

These guys made the decision that they would contribute to the destruction of CART for the benefit of the IRL. You're either part of the problem, or part of the solution. They turned their backs on the fans that supported them, and made sure they left leaving jabs at the organization that made their professional careers. Sorry, I don't forgive and forget that easily. The only driver I'd make an exception to is Dixon because he's racing the Crapwagons because Toyota won't let him do anything else. Dashley and Kanaan had choices, and they chose to help Idiotgrandson put CART out of business.

If they are unhappy, tough noogies. I have no room in my heart for those that made the conscious decision to contribute to the destruction of CART and that includes car owners too.

[Ed_Severson]

While we're chiming in, I guess I'll toss my hat into the ring.

I happen to agree with Dave completely.

I have to admit to being confused about something, though. Exactly how does this alleged admittance by Kanaan and Franchitti that they have screwed up their lives help CART in any way, shape, or form if you have to support CART's business rival to see them, er, race?

Further, I think it's a little disingenuous to fault the IRL for "physically wrecking" anybody's career, particularly when the boneheads in question, not the IRL, made the decision to jeopardize their safety, and completely abandon their integrity in the process.

You're right on one point -- I don't have to consider my racing future like they do. But, on the other hand, I'm 100% certain that these dolts, unlike me, possess the ability to pass on what they consider to be the "wrong" job opportunity.

This crying point gets brought up quite often, but I have yet to see any hard evidence that Kanaan, Franchitti, or any of the other turncoats would be living paycheck-to-paycheck working at Taco Bell or Wal-Mart if they hadn't taken IRL drives. So, please, do us all a favor and spare us the sanctimonious pity.

These guys made the decision to help attempt the destruction of what they claim to love, and the only justification is money, which hardly amounts to justification at all. These are not the actions of honest men -- they're the actions of greedy, self-serving slugs.

Screw 'em!

[Ziggy]

Yahooo!!! Tell it to 'em Ed!!!

Ziggy

[Kate]

Ed is absolutely correct. Lincoln freed ALL the slaves in America in 1863; not one of those boys had a gun in his back to force him into dangerous cars on boring tracks in front of empty grandstands.

However, I have no problem with them admitting that they screwed up big time; that is healthy for anyone who has made a big mistake. The problem I would have is in their expecting any of us to give a flying :cry: or help them in their attempt to pretend they are not free and over 21 and fully capable of making adult decisions, even totally screwed up decisions.

And I include Gil in that, too, because nobody had a gun in HIS back either.

[SteveH]

Screw 'em. If they're unhappy, too bad. Anyone one of them will make more this year than I'll make in a decade - or two. A steady diet of ovals must have them wondering about their future in the sport. Boys, guess what, you've reached your limit. Hope you can still walk when you leave.

[Eagle104]

Drinking the koolaid was one thing...but then spitting it back in our faces was the c(r)apper.

The should have just swallowed and gone on their merry-go-round way.

[Cam]

I am all in favor of them coming back! Now where is that Crow recipe? :p

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by Ed_Severson
While we're chiming in, I guess I'll toss my hat into the ring.

I happen to agree with Dave completely.

I have to admit to being confused about something, though. Exactly how does this alleged admittance by Kanaan and Franchitti that they have screwed up their lives help CART in any way, shape, or form if you have to support CART's business rival to see them, er, race?

Further, I think it's a little disingenuous to fault the IRL for "physically wrecking" anybody's career, particularly when the boneheads in question, not the IRL, made the decision to jeopardize their safety, and completely abandon their integrity in the process.

You're right on one point -- I don't have to consider my racing future like they do. But, on the other hand, I'm 100% certain that these dolts, unlike me, possess the ability to pass on what they consider to be the "wrong" job opportunity.

This crying point gets brought up quite often, but I have yet to see any hard evidence that Kanaan, Franchitti, or any of the other turncoats would be living paycheck-to-paycheck working at Taco Bell or Wal-Mart if they hadn't taken IRL drives. So, please, do us all a favor and spare us the sanctimonious pity.

These guys made the decision to help attempt the destruction of what they claim to love, and the only justification is money, which hardly amounts to justification at all. These are not the actions of honest men -- they're the actions of greedy, self-serving slugs.

Screw 'em!

I knew as soon as I made these statements I'd get it BIG TIME.....
Let's face it, up until the last minute, nobody knew it CART would be here this year. I, just like the next die-hard and loyal CART fan kept on saying that they would be out of pride. Up until the last little bit, we honestly were all concerned. If we as fans were concerned, then how could these drivers not be? Sign up for a ride and then have CART not exist this year and be without a ride? Not a good place to be. Yes, they made the decision to go, but would they really have if things weren't so shaky? I feel it is a legitimate question. I don't presume to know what went through their minds when they made that decision. It is easy for all of us to say it was purely out of love for the almighty $$$$$$, but we don't really know that. So did they pick the "wrong" opportunity? Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?
Give them credit for admitting it. As for "turning their backs on their fans", seriously, how is that? You like drivers, because you like them. I would never follow any of them if they went to the IRL because of the principle of the whole thing, but I would never take it to the level that they deserve any injuries sustained to them in the IRL. They don't need to consult the fans before they sign their contracts. Does it do CART good that they admit the error in going to the IRL??? I really think so. Now that CART is in fact around and doing better all the time, and they say now that there is less uncertainty that they would rather drive in CART..that looks good on CART. Says, "The IRL was a last resort, and now that I have a choice, I want to choose CART". Never a bad thing for CART...... Looks good on the idiot grandson, if you ask me.........

Also, I do not "support" CART's business rival to see Franchitti and Kanaan race. THAT is an assumption. Also, I do NOT follow the IRL in order to follow previous CART drivers. Remember, I did NOT start this thread here about the "unhappy drivers", I just merely responded to it. How is saying anything sympathetic towards these ex-CART drivers that now drive in the IRL any different than the time others waste on obsessing on how they are unhappy with their decisions to go there any different. I just took a different twist on it. We're all CART fans here..........

As for "physically wrecking" their careers, (another point taken from me and used out of context here)..........I was speaking of the fact that I would hate to see any driver get injured to the point of no return in any racing league, whether or not they "chose" to go there and therefore that makes them a "bonehead". I can't despise anyone so much for their decisions that I would wish them ill will because of it. That to me is taking the "I hate the IRL" to a whole new level and really does not make me any better than the IRL fans that follow Tony George at all costs irregardless of the fact that he is destroying open wheel racing in North America. I am just as ticked off as all of you at that. If that makes me "disingenious", I'll take it. As for sparing "all of you" the "sanctimonious pity", sorry that I see it differently and that makes you feel the need to discredit me with words such as "disingenious" and "sanctimonious". When I began my viewpoint, I did so by saying to DaveL that I was in no way attacking him, but that I just dissagreed.
I didn't want to offend him in any way..............:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

Oh dear, here it goes now......................

[DaveL]

Originally posted by RaceChic
When I began my viewpoint, I did so by saying to DaveL that I was in no way attacking him, but that I just dissagreed.
I didn't want to offend him in any way

You didn't.

My issue is with the drivers, not you. They chose to support CART's destruction by contributing to it. If they had the principles of Paul "I'm not driving those crapwagons" Tracy we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Dashley and Kanaan took the money and ran. If they really thought CART wasn't going to be around it is only because they believed what their POS team owner told them...an owner who made his name and fortune in CART and then spent the last 6 months of his tenure there crapping all over it, lying to the fans that supported him, and being an active participant in the effort to put the kibosh on CART for '03. By joining him, they joined the effort to put CART out of business.

As long as those two Crapwagon drivers race in the IRL, their happiness or lack thereof is no concern to me. It was the CART fans that embraced them and the IRL fans who claimed that it was their ilk that was ruining the sport. It was the CART fans who defended them at every turn on the fora, and the IRL fans who mocked them and rejected them. They turned their back on the very fans that made them their names here in the States, and went running to those who derided them.

I'll say it again. EFF 'EM! They could have been part of the solution. Instead they chose to part of the problem.

If Dashley and Kanaan never turn another lap in CART competition again it will be fine with me. The fans owe these two nothing, and their POS car owner even less.

[Cam]

Originally posted by DaveL
The fans owe these two nothing, and their POS car owner even less.

Dave....You owe me a whole new laptop! Not just a keyboard claning! :cry:

[cartmanoz]

I feel sorry for Dario and Kanaan being injured, but they made their own choices and now they have to live with, and suffer the consequences of, those decisions.

Frankly, it won't surprise me if most of the ex-CART drivers are unhappy. I know Scott Dixon was far from happy being forced into the IRL.

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by cartmanoz
I feel sorry for Dario and Kanaan being injured, but they made their own choices and now they have to live with, and suffer the consequences of, those decisions.

Frankly, it won't surprise me if most of the ex-CART drivers are unhappy. I know Scott Dixon was far from happy being forced into the IRL.

I agree with that. Just would never deliberately wish ill will on them.

[RaceChic]

Originally posted by DaveL
If Dashley and Kanaan never turn another lap in CART competition again it will be fine with me. The fans owe these two nothing, and their POS car owner even less.

Now with Wankerdretti, that's a whole other situation....... The wank didn't just take his team and leave, he went out with a few too many shared comments with the media ...............No dignity in that..........:flame: :flame: :flame: :flame: :flame:

[Railbird]

Like it or not, if a sponsor pays the tab Dario and/or Tony will be racing in a series dear to you.

Dixon is on the Toyota hook.

Tracy had an easy choice having Player's persue him for years. If not he would be elsewhere although I doubt he would have badmouthed anyone on the way out.

Chip and Mikey's mouths have pissed me off but it's the Captain's actions that are the real offense.

JMHO

[Ed_Severson]

"Let's face it, up until the last minute, nobody knew it CART would be here this year."

Baloney. They had manufacturers, constructors, a tire supplier, race contracts, existing teams and drivers, and a nice $30 million cushion to fill out the grid. There was never any doubt about whether or not CART would continue. The primary doubt was concern on the drivers' part that the checks wouldn't be as large.

"It is easy for all of us to say it was purely out of love for the almighty $$$$$$ ..."

And, as is often the case where love of money is involved, it's the easy answer that's correct.

"Give them credit for admitting it."

Thus far, I have heard no such admission. All I've seen is a fourth-party rumor on an internet fan forum. I'd like a public admission of idiocy before we progress any further.

"I would never take it to the level that they deserve any injuries sustained to them in the IRL."

Are you implying that on my behalf? :saywhat:

"Does it do CART good that they admit the error in going to the IRL??? I really think so."

How, exactly? Does it bring more people to the track? Increase the TV audience? Attract sponsors? And, again, it should be pointed out that no such public statement has been made, so whatever hypothetical benefit there may be is null.

"Also, I do not "support" CART's business rival to see Franchitti and Kanaan race. THAT is an assumption."

An assumption on your part, apparently, because that's not what I said. For review ...

"Exactly how does this alleged admittance by Kanaan and Franchitti that they have screwed up their lives help CART in any way, shape, or form if you have to support CART's business rival to see them, er, race?"

"As for "physically wrecking" their careers, (another point taken from me and used out of context here)..."

I take exception to "out of context." You said "I am worried that the IRL will wreck these guys careers physically ..." To me, that seems to be a pretty clear implication on your part that whatever career destruction may occur as a result of "racing" in the IRL is the responsibility of the sanctioning body rather than the driver who made a free-will decision to participate in their events. Could and should the cars be safer? Absolutely. But is it the IRL's fault that these knuckleheads consciously jeopardized themselves for money and money alone? Absolutely not.

"I can't despise anyone so much for their decisions that I would wish them ill will because of it."

Me neither. But you won't find me wasting any tears for these soulless golddiggers, either. If you thought it was so damn great to begin with, don't come crying to me when you get an a-arm in the ass. It's not like you weren't warned.

"As for sparing "all of you" the "sanctimonious pity", sorry that I see it differently and that makes you feel the need to discredit me with words such as "disingenious" and "sanctimonious"."

I don't feel any sort of need to discredit anybody in this discussion. I do, however, feel the need to point out the plain and simple truth.

I'm sorry if you have taken exception to my remarks -- that wasn't my intent. As Dave said, my issue is with the drivers, not with you.

But, if you continue to insist upon attempting to justify the decisions these former men have made, or convince me that I shouldn't be angry about it ... well, it won't be a passive response, I can tell you that.

[Lizzerd]

Chill, Ed. It's a discussion, not a fight.

[pchall]

Ed has passion.

Passion will keep the fan base alive.

[Kate]

Confucius said once "It is necessary to do right. It is not necessary to be happy."

I think you do Paul Tracy a disservice by assuming that he would have as few principles as the deserters, if he hadn't had a handle on a job with Players. It's been my impression since the situation at No Longer Kool Green deteriorated to something resembling the Canadian House of Commons or a WWF Extravaganza, whichever may be worse, that PT acted with grace and maturity and refused to take the fight to the public, despite those $300K fines he was reported to have received for saying things in private that his deserter team objected to.

Believe it or not, there are people in the world, and even in racing, whose principles are not for sale to the highest bidder. PT is one of those.

[RaceChic]

Thank-You for your reply. I appreciate you clarifying your position. I was attempting to clarify my original post.

The piece on the injuries being deserved was not clear on my part. It was a response to a poster prior to you. My appologies.

And I believe all of these posts are a discussion about a rumour from a fourth party. We are discussing the implications of this if it became public statement and reality.

I was not blaming any sanctioning body for their injuries. Just that racing in the league is dangerous and would hate anyone to have physical injuries that stop their careers or hinder their lives.
Some people have the attitude that "If you break your neck hitting the wall, you deserve it because you chose the IRL over CART". That's what I don't agree with. That doesn't make it sanctimonious pity. Wasting tears........Sorry. It's my nature.

As for CART being here, up until the last little bit, when anyone went to the website and checked the teams and drivers, the numbers weren't as high as promised. It was concerning. Made me and others that I spoke with worry that it might fall appart at the last minute. Just because you have a sponsor and an engine package doesn't mean it is a done deal. I was worried that it might not happen. My stubborn love for the series doesn't make everything happen. I wish.

Not discrediting anyone but pointing out the "plain and simple truth"? That's what it is when you disagree with them and use words to describe compassion as "spare us sanctimonious pity". "Spare us" on my opinions if they are not like yours? Disagreeing with me about being concerned about "wrecking their careers physically" and implying I was blaming the sanctioning body, okay. That takes my statement to a whole new level. We all talk here about how dangerous it is there and worry about the "big one" happening.

I'm not telling you that you are unjustified with being angry with them. I am also. Just not willing to wish ill will. Yes, they made their beds.............

Don't worry Ed, nothing you have said has given me the impression you are being passive in your responses.....;)
I wasn't attacking you. Responding to the fact that I honestly felt that you were on me in your response. You took me replying to DaveL and personalized it and went right back at me. That WAS my perception if you desire to personalize this. My biggest mistake here, was the fact that I put your post into my second reply. I shouldn't have done that, but made my statements my own only. You did rub me the wrong way. I admit it.:(

Peace.............:)

[Railbird]

You have to look no further that the Jeff Krosnoff tragedy to see that all forms of motorsports present risks that some would find unacceptable. While ovals by their very nature multiply those risks it's certainly not like the roadcourses exist without them.

[rabbit]

Originally posted by Railbird
You have to look no further that the Jeff Krosnoff tragedy to see that all forms of motorsports present risks that some would find unacceptable. While ovals by their very nature multiply those risks it's certainly not like the roadcourses exist without them. Exactly. Look at the last three fatalities in CART. Krosnoff - street circuit, Rodriguez - road course, Moore - superspeedway. Racing is dangerous, regardless of series.

[BlueStang]

Originally posted by RaceChic
Not all of them want to be there.

I know Honda probably did waive a lot of dough in their faces, but I think that Dario and Tony both were good enough to get CART rides, if they'd wanted them, and if there'd been rides available, so I am not sure how they were forced to go somewhere they didn't want to be. I am not sure if Dario's contract with the former Team Green someone tied him to Mikey, but Tony wasn't forced into an IRL ride until he signed on with AGR.

I was also under the impression that Chip let all his drivers go before he made the switch. If that is correct, Dixon didn't have to re-sign, and could have also gotten a ride in CART, if he could find one.

I like Tony and Gil, and would be happy watching them run in either series. Would give me a better chance of watching a CART race and seeing a driver I like win a race, instead of watching a driver I don't particularly like win every race.

Blue