View Full Version : Don't Screw This Up!
Cooper Tires. Ford. Atlantics. Dallara. VanDieman. $$-Speed ratio. Rumor denied, but will a "proper" F-3 spec Dallara (215hp) run in a series with IRL/IPS? Sounds like CC doesn't like the comparison of a FF-2000 running faster AND being way cheaper than an Atlantic car? The figures I saw make it look like a guy could run 5 Formula Fords for what it takes to run one Atlantic car and then beat 'em!? Will the Cooper Series stick to a 180hp spec engine to keep them slower...and will teams want to run bigger and faster in some other series in bed with the Dark Side? Be careful.
Cooper Tires. Ford. Atlantics. Dallara. VanDieman. $$-Speed ratio. Rumor denied, but will a "proper" F-3 spec Dallara (215hp) run in a series with IRL/IPS? Sounds like CC doesn't like the comparison of a FF-2000 running faster AND being way cheaper than an Atlantic car? The figures I saw make it look like a guy could run 5 Formula Fords for what it takes to run one Atlantic car and then beat 'em!? Will the Cooper Series stick to a 180hp spec engine to keep them slower...and will teams want to run bigger and faster in some other series in bed with the Dark Side? Be careful.
http://www.johnnylunchpail.com/robwebber/uploaded_images/stopmaking-749261.jpg
Honestly, what are you implying?
I imply nothing. I know nothing. I worry that technical and $$ issues within the lower "ladders" may lead to a reorganization of sorts that could affect the quality and standing of the Cooper FF series and in turn it's value to ChampCar. It pains me to see potential top talent, whether they be teams or drivers hinting at a move away from CC and toward The League. Don't think I'd like to see a F-3 spec Dallara FF running faster than a Swift Formula Atlantic either. It may be nothing. I don't think CC will "ban" the Dallara.
So you think that the Dallara FF2000's could potentially be quicker than the new Atlantic's at a much reduced cost and that USFF2000 would become the IRL's official ladder?
OMG!:eek: ...I never thought of THAT!;)
Peter Olivola
11-28-06, 08:38 PM
See: http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20181
Post #8
Whats the basis for the comment that the F3 car would be faster? My math says the Atlantic would still have better power to weight. Specs suggest better brakes and more tire on the road as well, but I can't find enough detail to say for sure.
Whats the basis for the comment that the F3 car would be faster? My math says the Atlantic would still have better power to weight. Specs suggest better brakes and more tire on the road as well, but I can't find enough detail to say for sure.
Even underdeveloped US based F3's have been faster than pro prepped Atlantics (014) on the same tracks despite the power disadvantage. F3 chassis are just more efficient.
If there is any truth to the rumor of Champ Car killing this deal it simply further illustrates their detachment from reality. They had a chance to make the Atlantics a competitive and reasonably budgeted series and instead stuck their head up their asses and pretended it is 1994. Now someone else has developed a reasonably affordable, high-tech and fast series and they want to deny membership in their country club.
Andrew Longman
11-29-06, 12:11 PM
More efficient how?
And how is it done for 1/5th the cost?
I just don't know anything about the Dallara F3. I can see how you can make it look better for less. Looks doesn't equal $. But more power for less money usually means more weight. Car construction is time and materials. Carbon fiber is carbon fiber and the Swift was supposed to be simpler in construction.
Just looking for how Dallara could have produced a quicker car for so much less.
And I can hardly blame CC for frowning on them. Its regrettable but unavoidable.
extramundane
11-29-06, 01:43 PM
It's all imaginary. There's no conceivable way a Dallara backbreak crapwagon-lite could outrun and be cheaper than a CC-approved vehicle. :gomer:
Even underdeveloped US based F3's have been faster than pro prepped Atlantics (014) on the same tracks despite the power disadvantage. F3 chassis are just more efficient. How much faster than an .014? The .016/Mazda package is 3-4 seconds faster than the .014 at most courses.
Another question is where is the difference in cost coming from? The chasis costs are roughly the same (the Dallara will be more after the initial batch), the tires should be the same now, the engine rebuilds? I find it hard to believe that accounts for the alleged 5x difference.
Atlantic officials were able to meet their goal as they developed a car that features a chassis tagged at $79,500 and a complete running race car that costs $175,000 - a figure considered very affordable by modern standards in auto racing.http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=9895
Each [Dallara] rolling chassis has a retail price of over $100,000, but FMI has two new partners on board who, in order to launch the series, will offer the first 26 chassis at a subsidised price of $67,500 to ease the equipment change for clients.http://www.crash.net/news_view.asp?cid=26&id=140200
Makes one wonder, if indeed they prove cheaper and faster, why CC just didn't create the USA F-3 (US Atlantic/F-3) to mirror those in Europe and Asia. I'm sure Elan and Cosworth could be competitive with anyone else. Maybe because it'd look more like an F-1 feeder than a CC ladder!:)
Still looking for real information instead of grassy gnolls and spy planes. Anyone have F3 times from tracks in common with Atlantic?
Dallara makes an entirely new F3 car every three years and updates every year. This design has been constantly developed against other manufacturers for the last 15 years and has been the best F3 chassis in the world for most of that time. The car has been continuously refined to beat other makes not just designed and built. That's how it becomes a more efficient chassis aerodynamically and mechanically.
The $79k roller price for an 016 is probably a bit misleading since you have to buy the Cosworth and they are charging $96,000 for it which sounds astronomically high for a 4 banger that you can get in CSR trim for about $10,000, maybe less. The initial cost comparison is tough because its not apples and oranges. Ones is a spec car made for one series, the other is made to a set of rules for several series around the world.
The new Atlantic will likely be faster than an F3 at most tracks. The old Atlantics were only a couple seconds shy of an F3 at Laguna Seca. The additional hp of the new Cosworth should offset that at most tracks.
Yeah, but doesn't Cosworth still "own" the engines and maintain them? Maybe that's why the higher cost? Buy car, buy engines + maintainence? Just guessing. Geez, a CSR with $86,000 worth of upgrades could be pretty quick!
diamond dave
11-29-06, 08:42 PM
maybe Panoz doesn't want a dallarda in the CC ladder series:\
isn't the VD chassis builders under the Panoz/Elan family?
Beacause of all the road cars Dallara sells? I doubt it. This is after all a marxie pile of steaminess. The most likely explanation is that they haven't moved enough Dallara's or will not be able to have all the engine refitments done in a reasonable enough time. Can't start the season with only 9 cars and can't switch cars mid-stream so you have to postpone a year. And FF2k has never been an official CC ladder series, nor do I think they would seek Champ Car sanctioning as the fees are so high. They've always run with a mix of CCWS, ALMS, Grand-Am, IRL, etc..
This is after all a marxie pile of steaminess.
And he changed the rumor to false a couple days ago. :laugh:
Yes, Atlantics are an "official" feeder to CC because CC OWNS it, but that isn't what worries me. The unofficial ladder or feeders are just as important. I'm not aware of too many top drivers who started in Formula Atantic. I'm very happy to hear and learn about all the technical stuff but my original concern remains. I do not believe the rumor is made up, can see exactly why CC doesn't want the 2000s running too fast, and can see teams who actually want to do that exploring an alternative. I can also see a competing series exploiting any unhappiness within what I will call a "CC sphere of influence" to their benefit, selling of course speed and economic advantage. "They" have already demonstrated their interest in FF, Mazda and BMW drivers. Keep FF detuned Zetecs at 180hp and let them compete to move UP to Swift Atlantics. (have to say I was disappointed when CC decided to cap the Atlantics at 300 hp when the IPS was at 450. Do we have any lap comparisons there?)
True, the squashed rumor addressed the BAN of the Dallara by CC, (don't know how they'd do that anyway) not whether in '08 some might be looking for a place to run faster F-3 spec 215hp FF-2000s. Of course I think it said at League "road courses" so I don't know how much of a threat that'd be anyway.
True, the squashed rumor addressed the BAN of the Dallara by CC, (don't know how they'd do that anyway) not whether in '08 some might be looking for a place to run faster F-3 spec 215hp FF-2000s. Of course I think it said at League "road courses" so I don't know how much of a threat that'd be anyway.
Well, like I said, the organizer of this F2k series has traditionally sought being at big events under a variety of headliners. As pointed out in the Apexspeed thread, FMI doesn't really deal with the CCWS but individual promoters.
As far as a perceived threat to the Atlantic series in '08, maybe they should have thought about designing their new spec to compete in an open marketplace where you won't always have a $2,000,000 prize to draw drivers and their bank accounts. If someone comes up with a better mousetrap CCWS better respond or expect to be back at 11 car grids.
In any event, the ladder system as it was getting defined in the mid 90's has been blown up. There is no path, if you've got the cash just do a year of FBMW and jump into Coyne ride. If not, be really god damn good at driving or really good at relieving people of cash for no returns.
diamond dave
11-30-06, 07:39 PM
Keep FF detuned Zetecs at 180hp and let them compete to move UP to Swift Atlantics. (have to say I was disappointed when CC decided to cap the Atlantics at 300 hp when the IPS was at 450. Do we have any lap comparisons there?)
I think 300hp is all you'll get out of the 2.3L without turbo. Isn't it's redline at 8-9K? Thought I read where it's (2.3) stroke is longer than a F1 motor's - hence the low redline for a racing motor.
I wish Atlantic would upgrade to Ford's new 3.5L V-6 or atleast the 3.0 V-6
Yep. The turbo 4 is what I was hinting at. I've read the current engine is just about maxed out.
trauma1
12-06-06, 03:55 PM
isn't the VD chassis builders under the Panoz/Elan family?
yep
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.