Engine Freeze

[Andrew Longman]

So how does that work? How will the FIA enforce no developmen on the engine for the next four year? I can't see how they do this practically. Can't be tearing engines apart looking for special parts that weren't there before, can they? It's not like NASCAR where 90% of the parts are open sourced NASCAR approved.

[peasant]

Any Chance of a link?

[Andrew Longman]

Any Chance of a link?

Sorry no link but the latest issue of Racer mentions that engine guru Martinelli is moving on from Ferrari because the 4 year engine freeze makes his job irrelevant.

[Cam]

Any Chance of a link?

Yo! :) Its a PDF (http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/149730155__2007_F1_SPORTING_REGULATIONS.pdf) so I will post it here for discussions sake.


APPENDIX 4
ENGINE HOMOLOGATION
1. A homologated engine is an engine identical in every respect to either :

(i) An engine delivered to the FIA on or prior to 8 October 2006, such engine having ompleted two race Events during the 2006 Championship season. However, any competitor who is unable to provide an engine which has completed two races at this time may do so on 22 October 2006.

(ii) An engine delivered to the FIA on or prior to 1 March 2007, such engine being identical to one delivered under (i) above but which has been modified by having any of the parts listed below changed :


- Inlet and exhaust ports
- Combustion chamber
- Inlet and exhaust camshafts (including followers)
- Inlet and exhaust valves
- Piston shape and squirt jets
- Piston pins
- Connecting rod small ends and bearings
- Big end bearings and oil flow rate to them


Further changes, for car installation purposes only and which have no direct performance benefit, will also be permitted. Such changes are limited to :


- engine pick-up points to chassis and gearbox
- fluid inlets and outlets
- fixings for engine ancillaries
- electrical sensor installations
- engine ballast weight attachments
- bodywork and skid block fixings

If a competitor intends to modify any of the parts listed above he must provide precise details of the planned changes to the FIA on or before 15 December 2006. Once details have been provided in this way no further changes will be permitted.

(iii) An engine delivered to the FIA after 1 March 2007, or modified and re-delivered to the FIA after 1 March 2007, which the FIA is satisfied, in its absolute discretion and after full consultation with all other suppliers of engines for the Championship, could fairly and equitably be allowed to compete with other homologated engines.

All such engines should be delivered in such a condition that the seals required under Article 87(d) can be fitted. Engines will be held by the FIA throughout the homologation period.

2. The supplier of a homologated engine and/or the team using the homologated engine must take and/or facilitate such steps as the FIA may at any time and in its absolute discretion determine in order to satisfy the FIA that an engine used at an Event is indeed identical to the corresponding engine delivered to and held by the FIA.

3. The FIA, in consultation with the TWG and the engine suppliers, will from time to time issue indicative information as to the tests and inspection procedures to be applied.

[peasant]

Thanks Cam.

So if you've got an uncompetitive motor you're stuck with it for 4 years or you have to buy a competitors. I take it that it's a cost reduction move, but it seems insane, kind of like a spec engine but with absolutely no equality. Or am I not reading that right?

[oddlycalm]

kind of like a spec engine but with absolutely no equality. Or am I not reading that right? You're reading it exactly right, and of course that's why a lot of people are shaking their heads. It is F1 after all...

No doubt about it saving money though. Every engine mfg has let go several high priced people and then there is the savings that will come from the lack of need to always be testing. Still, when you look at what it takes to run a team the cost of the engine development is how much of the budget, particularly if it's amortized over multiple customer teams as it is now for every engine mfg aside from Benz.

oc

[Cam]

particularly if it's amortized over multiple customer teams as it is now for every engine mfg aside from Benz.

oc

Why do you think it is different for MB? :confused:

[cameraman]

BMW doesn't have any customer teams either.

Just to keep track:

Ferrari=> Ferrari, Toro Rosso & Spyker
Renault=> Renault & Red Bull
Honda=> Honda & Super Aguri
Toyota=> Toyota & Williams
Mercedes=> McLaren
BMW=> BMW Sauber

[peasant]

So let's say Ferrari has the fastest homogulated engine. All they have to do is make sure none of their serious competition can buy one or that any that are sold aren't quite in the league with the in house model.- that means 4 years without competition. This seems insane, another one car dominance like the early 2000's guaranteed for 4 years:shakehead
Surely F1 is going to lose a lot of viewers with that.:confused: I just can't fathom what they're thinking, it seems to wacko to be what it reads as.

[Insomniac]

So let's say Ferrari has the fastest homogulated engine. All they have to do is make sure none of their serious competition can buy one or that any that are sold aren't quite in the league with the in house model.- that means 4 years without competition. This seems insane, another one car dominance like the early 2000's guaranteed for 4 years:shakehead
Surely F1 is going to lose a lot of viewers with that.:confused: I just can't fathom what they're thinking, it seems to wacko to be what it reads as.

Don't forget about aero. Also, most people believed the Ferrari engine to be more powerful than the Renault, but Adrian Newey still wanted the Renault engine for the 2007 Red Bull. I think because of its lower center of gravity.

[cameraman]

Did Ferrari homologate one, two or three engines? Do Toro Rosso and Spyker get identical engines or are there three different Ferrari spec engines? Same question for Renault, Toyota & Honda, did they homologate one design or two?

[Andrew Longman]

...and then there is the savings that will come from the lack of need to always be testing. oc


This could actually result in more testing. Much engine development can be done on a dyno, but suspension and tire development generally requires track time. And then there is wnd tunnel time. Take one variable away and team will invest more in another.

This is just stupid

[ferrarigod]

I hate this new engine freeze.
http://www.aet.ca/files/imagemanagermodule/@random4296350bd94a9/LTSA_Frozen.jpg

[ferrarigod]

Surely F1 is going to lose a lot of viewers with that.:confused: I just can't fathom what they're thinking, it seems to wacko to be what it reads as.

Of course I'm serious.

And don't call me Shirley.

[ferrarigod]

why is the interweb so slow today.

double.

[peasant]

Don't forget about aero. Also, most people believed the Ferrari engine to be more powerful than the Renault, but Adrian Newey still wanted the Renault engine for the 2007 Red Bull. I think because of its lower center of gravity.

Fair enough, But if your way of pace for power how much superior does your aero design have to be just to catch up? I wouldn't want a disadvantage like that for four years. If your way down after a year surely you might reconsider you participation over the rest of the period, especially if you have to spend buckets loads just to be mid pack at best.

[peasant]

Did Ferrari homologate one, two or three engines? Do Toro Rosso and Spyker get identical engines or are there three different Ferrari spec engines? Same question for Renault, Toyota & Honda, did they homologate one design or two?

Is that an option? If so :shakehead :shakehead :shakehead





Of course I'm serious.

And don't call me Shirley.

What? Me no understandy

[emjaya]

The F1 site has the engines on the tech analysis page.

here. (http://www.formula1.com/insight/technical_analysis/)

:)

[ferrarigod]

What? Me no understandy

fast forward to 2:27:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q3rXK7NhWN8

or watch the whole thing. one of the. best. movies. ever.

[peasant]

fast forward to 2:27:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=q3rXK7NhWN8

or watch the whole thing. one of the. best. movies. ever.

O.K. Gotcha now.
Supposed to have got the Spec. Edition into my shop last week. Maybe I'll manage to getting around to watching the whole thing for the first time.

[Insomniac]

Fair enough, But if your way of pace for power how much superior does your aero design have to be just to catch up? I wouldn't want a disadvantage like that for four years. If your way down after a year surely you might reconsider you participation over the rest of the period, especially if you have to spend buckets loads just to be mid pack at best.

The thing is, F1 has been almost all about aero these last few years. Renault has won 2 championships with by alla ccounts a weaker (in HP) engine. BMW and Mercedes are reported to have some of the highest HP and they didn't fare so well last year. I think if it ever got to a point where all people said was so and so has the most powerful engine, that's why they're winning, then they may lift the freeze. I just doubt any team will all of a sudden be the best solely because their engine was the best.

[Andrew Longman]

The thing is, F1 has been almost all about aero these last few years. Renault has won 2 championships with by alla ccounts a weaker (in HP) engine. BMW and Mercedes are reported to have some of the highest HP and they didn't fare so well last year. I think if it ever got to a point where all people said was so and so has the most powerful engine, that's why they're winning, then they may lift the freeze. I just doubt any team will all of a sudden be the best solely because their engine was the best.

But its not just HP that might make an engine attractive. Renault supposedly had an advantage because the engine has a low center of gravity. Mercedes and Honda had a disadvantage because they blew up. These are things besides HP I might want to change over the course of 4 years.

[oddlycalm]

But its not just HP that might make an engine attractive. Renault supposedly had an advantage because the engine has a low center of gravity. Mercedes and Honda had a disadvantage because they blew up. These are things besides HP I might want to change over the course of 4 years. Exacly right. If Honda and Benz continued to have engines blowing for the next four years the real losers would be the fans.

While there is no doubt this will save money in one area it is a stupid rule as the teams will just spend the money on aero or something else.

oc

[Insomniac]

But its not just HP that might make an engine attractive. Renault supposedly had an advantage because the engine has a low center of gravity. Mercedes and Honda had a disadvantage because they blew up. These are things besides HP I might want to change over the course of 4 years.

Maybe everyone will end up with the same/best engine by 2010. ;)

[Insomniac]

Exacly right. If Honda and Benz continued to have engines blowing for the next four years the real losers would be the fans.

While there is no doubt this will save money in one area it is a stupid rule as the teams will just spend the money on aero or something else.

oc

The engines all teams gave the FIA made it through 2 race weekends. They should not be blowing up.

[Cam]

The engines all teams gave the FIA made it through 2 race weekends. They should not be blowing up.

Wonderful! Where they all competitive? :saywhat:

[Insomniac]

Wonderful! Where they all competitive? :saywhat:

I just can't imagine the disparity is so much so that aero can't fix it. I mean, we know Honda, M-B and BMW made powerful engines, so even if they dropped it back a few HP to improve reliability, they have strong engines. Renault won with a weaker engine than Ferrari. Cosworth is out. I'm pretty sure Toyota was competitive as well. The aero rules will constantly be changing over the 4 years as well. I don't think it will be stagnant, but I do agree that they'll just spend the money elsewhere (aero). The only real way to control costs are spec parts. If a team has the money, they'll put it towards R&D on any part to make it faster.

[pchall]

I wouldn't mind some disparity between the engines (as long as Ferrari isn't shafting its customers by 50 HP). But Bernie and Max aren't really addressing the really problem, and that's the aerodynamic package. It really hasn't worked for years and is arguably the largest cause of bad racing -- way beyond the effects of the narrowed track and grooved tires. Vestigial wings with only single planes and one flap, no diffuser, no splitter, and a real flat bottom from the first bulkhead to the engine mount would go a long way to restoring the WDC to a driver's contest instead of aero wars and budget size battles.

[Insomniac]

I wouldn't mind some disparity between the engines (as long as Ferrari isn't shafting its customers by 50 HP). But Bernie and Max aren't really addressing the really problem, and that's the aerodynamic package. It really hasn't worked for years and is arguably the largest cause of bad racing -- way beyond the effects of the narrowed track and grooved tires. Vestigial wings with only single planes and one flap, no diffuser, no splitter, and a real flat bottom from the first bulkhead to the engine mount would go a long way to restoring the WDC to a driver's contest instead of aero wars and budget size battles.

Let's see where they go from here. They had the split rear wing idea, which the fans hated, but may've improved racing. Something drastic has to be done to the aero. With computers and 24/7 wind tunnels you can quickly tweak the car to make it better and better while also making the air behind it worse and worse.

[formulaben]

Bring back the tunnels.

[Cam]

MEH! Just install sprinklers on every track. Turn 'em on at random times and random volumes.:D

[oddlycalm]

I just can't imagine the disparity is so much so that aero can't fix it. Assuming the other teams don't work on aero just as effectively....

The entire effort is a farce because, as Pete indicated, the engines were only part of the cost and not the one that effects overtaking. Limiting engine and tire costs will have a predictable effect as teams spend whatever savings they realize on aero development.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

The core issue to cost containment is that teams will spend whatever they have to win (assuming they have aspirations for winning).

So long as F1 sponsorship/participation throws off so much money, many teams will spend it. So what's wrong with that?

Nothing so long as the money being spent is not beyond the value that sponsorship and participation genuinely creates. When the engine manufacturers get involved they start to spend even more lavishishly for reasons of corporate pride and secondary benefits that make little sense for any other participant.

How to limit manufacturer spending and involvement? Tough question no one has answered but slightly different than trying to control costs. I have serious doubts about this being the right answer though.

[TrueBrit]

Yet another stunning example of why, as an engineer and technical guru, Max Moseley makes a great lawyer....

[Insomniac]

Assuming the other teams don't work on aero just as effectively....

The entire effort is a farce because, as Pete indicated, the engines were only part of the cost and not the one that effects overtaking. Limiting engine and tire costs will have a predictable effect as teams spend whatever savings they realize on aero development.

oc

The aero seems to be different depending on the engine though. For example, dropping a BMW in a Renault, even though say maybe it has 50 more HP may not make it better than the Renault engine.

[Indy]

Calling it F1 is a violation of truth in advertising. I suppose I should be thankful to have seen it while it lasted.

I think the implications for racing are dire. What they should have done, IMO, is mandate decreasing displacements with no other restrictions (except for safety technologies), and let the series remain the pinnacle of automotive development. Now it will become Eurotrash NASCAR, the pinnacle of automotive marketing.

I think my next car will be a TDI.

[Insomniac]

Calling it F1 is a violation of truth in advertising. I suppose I should be thankful to have seen it while it lasted.

I think the implications for racing are dire. What they should have done, IMO, is mandate decreasing displacements with no other restrictions (except for safety technologies), and let the series remain the pinnacle of automotive development. Now it will become Eurotrash NASCAR, the pinnacle of automotive marketing.

I think my next car will be a TDI.

Sadly, it will still be the pinnacle. NASCAR isn't going to challenge anyone technolgically and neither OW series in NA is close.

[oddlycalm]

Yet another stunning example of why, as an engineer and technical guru, Max Moseley makes a great lawyer.... Agreed, and Max is long past his sell date.

The most disappointing aspect of all of this is that the FIA had a mandate to make some serious changes in the aero spec that would have led to more overtaking, similar to what we see in GP2, and instead they suggested that idiotic split wing then when that was stillborn they made a left hand turn and froze engines...:shakehead :thumdown:

oc

[Andrew Longman]

Now it will become Eurotrash NASCAR, the pinnacle of automotive marketing.

How true.

Audi's diesel will now show more innovation than you will find in F1.

[eiregosod]

Regarding overtaking:

Massa is quaoted to have said that the new Bridgestones do not allow for easy overtaking because the cars are more unstable through the corners. The hard rubber compounds are having a big effect on the handling.


The only other series to try an engine freeze like what Max proposeis the EARL. In 2003 when the Chevy engine was underpowered and suffered from a major design flaw, Chevy had to put up with a terrible engine for the 2003 Indy 500. The guys who cut the checks at Chevy were not impressed. Any F1 manufacturer with a crap engine is doomed for the next 4 years.

Standing in the dole queue is not the idea of a good time for those unemployed engine gurus. Mario Ilmor has already built a MotoGp engine. Where will these guys wind up? MotoGp, WRC, Sheik-n'bake GP?

[oddlycalm]

Regarding overtaking:

Massa is quaoted to have said that the new Bridgestones do not allow for easy overtaking because the cars are more unstable through the corners.
-snip-
Any F1 manufacturer with a crap engine is doomed for the next 4 years.
-snip-
Standing in the dole queue is not the idea of a good time for those unemployed engine gurus. Agreed on all points. Max swings and misses again.

1) The harder tires will wear better and will create fewer marbles/clag, but will work against overtaking making on track passes for position more scarce and passing lapped cars riskier. Look for Bridgestone to bring on the orange sidewall option tires in an attempt to bring more attention to themselves.

2)Any mfg with a crap engine with no hope in sight will very likely exit F1when faced with the prospect of running as a backmarker for four years. It also means that the prospect of new mfg's entering the series is remote, because they would be stuck with their first revision engine for the duration of the freeze.

3) Very likely the mass talent exodus from F1 teams resulting from the engine freeze won't be seen as a good thing in retrospect.

4) Even if Mario Illian is successful in MotoGP, where are the broader benefits? There are no Ilmor production bikes to apply the technology to.

oc

[peasant]

[QUOTE=oddlycalm;179168]Agreed on all points. Max swings and misses again.


2)Any mfg with a crap engine with no hope in sight will very likely exit F1when faced with the prospect of running as a backmarker for four years. It also means that the prospect of new mfg's entering the series is remote, because they would be stuck with their first revision engine for the duration of the freeze.

/QUOTE]

This is what would worry me most if I was F1, and why the whole thing seems so f**king crazy.

By the way has there been any move to improve the 'Dirty air" issues at all?

[G.]

2)Any mfg with a crap engine with no hope in sight will very likely exit F1when faced with the prospect of running as a backmarker for four years. It also means that the prospect of new mfg's entering the series is remote, because they would be stuck with their first revision engine for the duration of the freeze.

3) Very likely the mass talent exodus from F1 teams resulting from the engine freeze won't be seen as a good thing in retrospect.
All the talent will come over to the States in order to run the world's pinnacle autorace, the earl500.

tHats' what I thimk.:gomer:

[Cam]

All the talent will come over to the States in order to run the world's pinnacle autorace, the earl500.

tHats' what I thimk.:gomer:

I thought it was the aero dept. they needed help with. And I will see your :gomer: and raise you a :tony: