FF2000 no more?

[pchall]

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20507

I'm not sure how to respond to this.

BTW, this thread will go to Ladders as well, but it will get more hits here.

[pchall]

http://www.apexspeed.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20507

I'm not sure how to respond to this.

Aging chassis, ancient engine. Times change.

[NismoZ]

All I can say is thanks to a forum poster who gave me some warning but still sad in a way. $$$$$$... such is life in racing... and economics. Sure could tell something was up.:( (read "Don't Screw This Up", below.)

[NismoZ]

I'd suggest combining in "Ladders" as there was previous discussion there on this topic.

[formulaben]

I'd suggest combining in "Ladders" as there was previous discussion there on this topic.

+1, yo.

[Peter Olivola]

The Cooper Series is history. Jon informed staff and the teams last weekend. There will be an east coast and a west coast series for similar cars. The west coast series has been feeding into the Cooper Series (both Jay Howard and J.R. Hildebrand ran there before Cooper,) but the east coast series has been more club racing oriented. I would expect that to change but the bulk of the east coast competitors will probably still be clubbies. Both series are run independently.

There is now an acute vacume at the entry level. Barber, Pro Formula Mazda and FBMW are substantially more expensive than the Cooper Series. I would expect something to develop over the next two years to fill the gap.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I would expect something to develop over the next two years to fill the gap.

Only to become progressively more expensive and price itself out of the market, more than likely.

[stroker]

Has anyone done a legitimate study on the:

1. entry cost
2. maintenance cost
3. performance

of the minor open-wheel roadracing series? I don't pay much attention to any of the SCCA classes or ladder pro series, but I'm curious.

[NismoZ]

It's tough to keep the people with more resources from using them or going where they can. Aussie V-8 is going through the same thing. It's a nightmare trying to monitor a spending cap of sorts but they're going to try. I had a thought that Mazda and Barber might be the entry now but I have no ideas as to cost. Would be nice if that works out for those who can't run a US "F-3" program subsidized by:tony: (?)

[Peter Olivola]

Cost was not a factor in this situation. If anything, Jon was better able to maintain the cost of the Cooper Series than any of the other feeders. There are some interesting opportunities on the horizon. Who and how are big questions, but there's an excellent chance that Jon will be the one to find a way.


Only to become progressively more expensive and price itself out of the market, more than likely.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Cost was not a factor in this situation. If anything, Jon was better able to maintain the cost of the Cooper Series than any of the other feeders. There are some interesting opportunities on the horizon. Who and how are big questions, but there's an excellent chance that Jon will be the one to find a way.

I wasn't saying that F2000 was becoming too expensive, I was just stating that whatever replaces it is likely to follow the same slippery slope as Star Mazda, Atlantics, etc.

[mueber]

To me the essential problem with auto racing in North America is that there is so much of it that, if you aren't a racing driver or a team owner by now, it's because you haven't bothered to get out of bed. If you want cheap amateur racing, that's what the SCCA is for--Hi Milka.

Let’s consolidate a few of these open wheel series, at both the bottom and the top :) , and make it "hard" to be “successful” in auto racing. Perhaps we will be taken seriously again.

[Peter Olivola]

The fundamental problem with this drum beat call for consolidation is that the people who pay for these things, have the vision, go out on a limb, organize, etc., are prototypical American entrepreneurs. Everyone thinks they have a better idea. No one is willing to give up anything to accomplish it.

Operationaly it's a very different story. The various sanctioning body stewards think of ourselves as a fraternity. While we know who writes the checks, we also know that we have to work together on a mixed group weekend. Deals are made and remade on an almost hourly basis.

The thing about a deal is, everyone has to get something and few of the entrepreneurs are willing to give each other a "win."


To me the essential problem with auto racing in North America is that there is so much of it that, if you aren't a racing driver or a team owner by now, it's because you haven't bothered to get out of bed. If you want cheap amateur racing, that's what the SCCA is for--Hi Milka.

Let’s consolidate a few of these open wheel series, at both the bottom and the top :) , and make it "hard" to be “successful” in auto racing. Perhaps we will be taken seriously again.

[FCYTravis]

This is sad news :(

I had a great time working in the Cooper Series... the drivers and team owners (often one and the same) and series officials were class acts and great people. Everyone cared about the racing. Grassroots semi-pro racing at its best, IMO. Too bad Jon couldn't make it work for another year. Peter's right - this leaves a huge void out there at the bottom of the scale, as the rest of the "cheap" contenders have rapidly priced themselves right out of town (*cough*carbon Star car*cough*)

Another era comes to an end. RIP, Zetecs.

[FCYTravis]

Aging chassis, ancient engine.
The chassis might have been slightly aging, but changing everything around every couple of years is what drives costs up. Ditto for the engine - and the DOHC fuel-injected Zetec architecture was hardly ancient. It was also bulletproof-reliable and fairly cheap.

Unfortunately, it wasn't sexy, and neither are tube-frames. Sexy, carbon cars are what get us half-million-dollar Star Mazda seasons.

Anyone else remember when the pro Star Cars were cheap outboard-shocked aluminum monstrosities? :(

[Easy]

Anyone else remember when the pro Star Cars were cheap outboard-shocked aluminum monstrosities? :(


They had 50 car fields right up to the last race of that spec.



The USFF2000 Championship was one of about 2 formula car series that had a realistic view of where formula car racing sits on this continent. The ending of this series is a sign of where the sport sits more than anything else. While every other series saw costs go up as the sports popularity declined, Jon Baytos made his playground a more and more affordable one. This series has a special place in my heart and I am saddened that it is gone.

And where else could you spend well under $100k, finish 5th in points and race talent like Jay Howard? Oh and get $35k back after selling the car.

[formulaben]

I seem to recall a West and East series...

[Peter Olivola]

Correct. Dan Andersen and Mike Foschi consolidated the two USAC series into USFF2000 which Jon Baytos eventually bought.


I seem to recall a West and East series...

[stroker]

This is probably a useless suggestion, but what the hell.

Seems like AMA Superbike/Supersport/etc. has pretty full fields, usually made up with a mix of a handful of factory rides and a slew of privateers. Is there any way that arrangement could be done in the minor AOW forumlas?

[Sean O'Gorman]

This is probably a useless suggestion, but what the hell.

Seems like AMA Superbike/Supersport/etc. has pretty full fields, usually made up with a mix of a handful of factory rides and a slew of privateers. Is there any way that arrangement could be done in the minor AOW forumlas?

Sure.

Make people want to watch formula car racing. Motorcycle riders watch motorcycle racing because they can identify with it. Find enough people to be able to identify with rich kids racing in front of nobody, and make the cars as cheap as a motorcycle, and you're all set.

[trauma1]

The chassis might have been slightly aging, but changing everything around every couple of years is what drives costs up. Ditto for the engine - and the DOHC fuel-injected Zetec architecture was hardly ancient. It was also bulletproof-reliable and fairly cheap.

Unfortunately, it wasn't sexy, and neither are tube-frames. Sexy, carbon cars are what get us half-million-dollar Star Mazda seasons.

Anyone else remember when the pro Star Cars were cheap outboard-shocked aluminum monstrosities? :(

travis how much more did the Dallarra raise the cost ,and is more cost effective to run atlantic than ff2000 with the new chassis they wanted

[Peter Olivola]

You have that exactly reversed.


travis how much more did the Dallarra raise the cost ,and is more cost effective to run atlantic than ff2000 with the new chassis they wanted

[Spicoli]

You have that exactly reversed.

http://www.macula.tv/gallery/Illustration/gallery/unicorn/unicorn.jpg

[trauma1]

You have that exactly reversed.

sorry how much more did the cost of racing in the series go up with the new chassis, was it a substantial increase or affordable for the teams

[Easy]

sorry how much more did the cost of racing in the series go up with the new chassis, was it a substantial increase or affordable for the teams

It would have still been less money than STAR Mazda or even FBMW.

[trauma1]

what are the budgets for fbmw and star mazda

[Peter Olivola]

$250,000 and up.


what are the budgets for fbmw and star mazda