Ford news

[nz_climber]

Dang, Kiwifan is rich!!!

You a kangaroo roper or something:rofl:

:rofl: those kangaroo roper's sure get paid heaps

yeah the fords down here are pretty different to what you folks get up north.. maybe someone up there should import a few!! also we have holden (GM)down here that make some alright cars - but kiwifan would never mention that :P http://www.holden.co.nz/vehicle/commodore/

[Kiwifan]

Ha ha, thanks for the kind words Ziggy. (nice to have you back btw.)

I do love my car. 6 Speed gear box, leather seats, awesome sound yadda yadda yadda....

Rich? N'ah. Lucky? Yep. Own a small grocery store and service station workin' up to 14 hours a day at the mo. Sigh, can't get staff. Anyone want a job? ;) Anyhow..traded the old car for 20 and paying the rest off over 3 years at 10% but it's worth it! All that and I get to go to Surfers! And I've seen the new car on the track. Told ya I was lucky.

Then there was Aaron. You knob. :) I met your bother, he's nice. Lol. Holdens? Sigh. :shakehead

If you want to see the whole Falcon Range try here. http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137385365703&pagename=FOA%2FDFYPage%2FDefault1024&c=DFYPage

Take care all,

Rusty.

[nz_climber]

Ha ha, thanks for the kind words Ziggy. (nice to have you back btw.)

I do love my car. 6 Speed gear box, leather seats, awesome sound yadda yadda yadda....

Rich? N'ah. Lucky? Yep. Own a small grocery store and service station workin' up to 14 hours a day at the mo. Sigh, can't get staff. Anyone want a job? ;) Anyhow..traded the old car for 20 and paying the rest off over 3 years at 10% but it's worth it! All that and I get to go to Surfers! And I've seen the new car on the track. Told ya I was lucky.

Then there was Aaron. You knob. :) I met your bother, he's nice. Lol. Holdens? Sigh. :shakehead

If you want to see the whole Falcon Range try here. http://www.ford.com.au/servlet/ContentServer?cid=1137385365703&pagename=FOA%2FDFYPage%2FDefault1024&c=DFYPage

Take care all,

Rusty.

haha - you know i don't support the red team.. just winding you up abit :P

You do have a nice car thou, will have to compare next year when my chevron (lotus 7 replica) is in the south island..

[JoeBob]

All of which are related to practicality. I suppose I could've stated my opinion more clearly, but I think you get what I'm saying.

I don't think you can separate practicality from emotion. Volvos for years have played on the "if you love you're family, you'll keep them safe in a Volvo" emotion. Toyota plays to similar emotions with the Camry (heck, Chrysler too with their minivans) - "If you love your family, you'll get a nice, safe, reliable car so you can have more money to spend on them."

And there were no threats, Sean... just a suggestion that this might be the point where you want to stop talking. More friendly advice than threat, really.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I don't think you can separate practicality from emotion. Volvos for years have played on the "if you love you're family, you'll keep them safe in a Volvo" emotion. Toyota plays to similar emotions with the Camry (heck, Chrysler too with their minivans) - "If you love your family, you'll get a nice, safe, reliable car so you can have more money to spend on them."

Ugh, I hate to quote Ank of all people, but I think he summed it up best:


for the purposes of this discussion it sure isn't. rational vs. emotional. head vs. heart. style vs. substance.

And I will back down a bit on my stance on the unions. Its just my opinion that when a anycompany is doing poorly, the employees shouldn't be entitled to the same security that they have when things are going well. Yes I know that management is probably making millions while the stock price tanks, but you wont stay in that position for very long without results.

[WickerBill]

Yes I know that management is probably making millions while the stock price tanks


UPPER management. The top 5% of a company are the ones who don't seem to have any tie between their compensation and the P/E of the company.

[oddlycalm]

If the Aussies can build a good FORD, well.....should you import or try harder? ;) Just joking guys, although it is the best car I have ever driven. Right on target actually. Ford and Holden (GM) in Oz have been making interesting cars to high quality standards for years and doing it profitably all along. GM and Ford have both tried bringing some of that sucess back to the States a little piece at a time, as with the GTO, but they always insist on mucking it up before it actually gets to market. Sad.

oc

[oddlycalm]

The tooling and start up procedure for this type of vehicle would be a nightmare. I can only imagine all the government regulations that would have to be jumped through in order to build a factory that could mass produce these types of cars.

America needs to think long term. Especially about the dependency on oil. Agreed that we need to be thinking long term, but there is little evidence that we are or will. It's been 35yrs since the 1st Arab oil embargo, 27yrs since the other shoe dropped, yet a large portion of our population is still driving around in 6000lb. vehicles with pushrod V8 engines made by the US auto companies which are now mortally threatened as a direct result. :gomer: Oh, and in doing so we are also funding our enemies into the mix. :tony:

The reason the tooling wouldn't be a nightmare is because Boeing has spent the last 25yrs perfecting the manufacturing processes and developing a base of machine, tooling and material vendors as well as factory regulations and standards. That's why Mulally running Ford matters.

Sure, there would be some serious investment, there always is anytime you have an all new engine or chassis. On the other hand, the payoff would by huge and it could be applied to vehicles of all sizes. It also eliminates the cost of hauling all that heavy steel from the mill to the plant.

The airlines have been paying close attention to fuel prices because it's a serious part of their operating costs, just like it is for most of us. They aren't insisting that Boeing sell them new 707's, they are demanding radically lighter airframes with much more efficient engines. Do we want the automotive equivalent of a 707?

oc

[Sean Malone]

The new GTO is a strange niche car. Mercilessly panned by the automotive media for being a re-skinned 10 year old Holden with uninspired looks, it’s probably the exact type of car that Mr. O’Gorman is referring too. That said, there is no mistaking this vehicle as a commuter car or utilitarian grocery getter. It’s a niche car and it’s meant to be. I applaud GM for offering it. I can’t go into my local Toyota dealer and ask the sales guy to show me what he has in a two door car, rear wheel drive, 350hp V8 with a five speed and leather. With a dopey expression he would probably say “uh, our pickups have V8’s”.

You see, when a company like Toyota has a business plan that is meant to drive them to be the number 1 automotive company in the world, they need to produce vehicles for the masses. This translates into watered down aesthetics with an emphasis on reliability for a selling point and for 20 years that model has been working just as planned. But say goodbye to any of ‘character’ cars (remember the Supra? Second gen MR2?) and hello to cars that say “I’m not an extrovert. I’m going from point A to point B”.

Take Chrysler as an example of a reworked business model. Competing with Ford and Chevy never worked for them. On the brink of extension more than once they “merge” (in name only) with Daimler and develop a business plan that allows them to build niche cars because with just a 4.7% share of sold automobiles in the U.S., they are a niche builder.
I live a mile away from a Dodge dealer who has five new Chargers on his front line. All painted in retro muscle car colors (Sub-lime, To-red, Top Banana etc) with retro decals that harkens back to the ‘cuda and Super Bee of the ‘70s. With an optional 425hp Hemi and those wild colors that is one car not meant for the masses and Dodge knows this. They know who their customers are and that those people aren’t buying the Hemi Charger to be a commuter car.

After the sellout to Daimler, Chrysler cut their model line down to the basics (after putting Plymouth out of it’s misery). Rule 1, don’t compete with yourself. That has always been the problem with Ford and Chevy, in trying to compete for the head honcho, they competed too much with themselves. Why have five compacts, three midsize compacts, four midsize sedans, two large sedans and three luxury sedans? Rinse and repeat for their truck and van lines and badged lines i.e. Buick, Mercury.

I remember when the new Cougar came out in 2000. My sister had to have one and asked me to accompany her to the dealer for a test drive and to help negotiate. Nice car, fully loaded, fresh styling, affordable…she bought it and was very happy. I took the opportunity to test drive a new Mustang GT. I was amazed how much it differed in interior styling and ‘feel’ than the Cougar. The steering column was the same as I remembered from my Dad’s ’94 Bronco, so were the locks and window switches. It felt 10 years older than it was. They are getting better about styling consistency but they are no where near the Japanese in this regard.


The Japanese manufactures built upon their reputation for reliability, kept their model lines to a minimum and kept a consistent styling across their product line. Unfortunately, as they grew they lost any character they might have had (which wasn’t a lot).

The problem I see for Ford and GM is that it may be too late to change. They are old companies with and old mindset, from their product line to their dealer network. There is still that smell of 80’s Detroit on them. I know waaay too many people who don’t even car shop when they are looking to buy, rather it’s straight to the Toyota or Honda dealer. A good friend of ours just bought a brand new Toyota Sienna, fully optioned. I asked her if she even test drove the competitors, with a **** of her head she proudly exclaimed “nope!”. When you can’t even get people to test drive your cars, let alone buy them…it’s serious.

I do disagree with Mr O’Gorman in terms of buying with your head instead of your heart. Ask any dealer salesperson what the number 1 contributing factor is when people are car shopping and they will tell you it’s looks/color. I have a salesman buddy who has told me about people who walk out when they can’t get their color of choice. That’s pretty silly, but then even when it comes to a commuter car, or minivan to haul the rug rats, the majority of buyers will still tack on the creature comforts that make your time in the car more bearable.

Tooling and unions I’ll leave to the rest of you. I’m just glad that there are Mustangs, GTO’s and Chargers for those of us who want more than a cookie cutter commuter car, but then I’m a car guy.

/blog

[G.]

The new GTO is a strange niche car. Mercilessly panned by the automotive media for being a re-skinned 10 year old Holden with uninspired looks, it’s probably the exact type of car that Mr. O’Gorman is referring too. That said, there is no mistaking this vehicle as a commuter car or utilitarian grocery getter. It’s a niche car and it’s meant to be. I applaud GM for offering it. I can’t go into my local Toyota dealer and ask the sales guy to show me what he has in a two door car, rear wheel drive, 350hp V8 with a five speed and leather. With a dopey expression he would probably say “uh, our pickups have V8’s”.

You see, when a company like Toyota has a business plan that is meant to drive them to be the number 1 automotive company in the world, they need to produce vehicles for the masses. This translates into watered down aesthetics with an emphasis on reliability for a selling point and for 20 years that model has been working just as planned. But say goodbye to any of ‘character’ cars (remember the Supra? Second gen MR2?) and hello to cars that say “I’m not an extrovert. I’m going from point A to point B”.

Take Chrysler as an example of a reworked business model. Competing with Ford and Chevy never worked for them. On the brink of extension more than once they “merge” (in name only) with Daimler and develop a business plan that allows them to build niche cars because with just a 4.7% share of sold automobiles in the U.S., they are a niche builder.
I live a mile away from a Dodge dealer who has five new Chargers on his front line. All painted in retro muscle car colors (Sub-lime, To-red, Top Banana etc) with retro decals that harkens back to the ‘cuda and Super Bee of the ‘70s. With an optional 425hp Hemi and those wild colors that is one car not meant for the masses and Dodge knows this. They know who their customers are and that those people aren’t buying the Hemi Charger to be a commuter car.

After the sellout to Daimler, Chrysler cut their model line down to the basics (after putting Plymouth out of it’s misery). Rule 1, don’t compete with yourself. That has always been the problem with Ford and Chevy, in trying to compete for the head honcho, they competed too much with themselves. Why have five compacts, three midsize compacts, four midsize sedans, two large sedans and three luxury sedans? Rinse and repeat for their truck and van lines and badged lines i.e. Buick, Mercury.

I remember when the new Cougar came out in 2000. My sister had to have one and asked me to accompany her to the dealer for a test drive and to help negotiate. Nice car, fully loaded, fresh styling, affordable…she bought it and was very happy. I took the opportunity to test drive a new Mustang GT. I was amazed how much it differed in interior styling and ‘feel’ than the Cougar. The steering column was the same as I remembered from my Dad’s ’94 Bronco, so were the locks and window switches. It felt 10 years older than it was. They are getting better about styling consistency but they are no where near the Japanese in this regard.


The Japanese manufactures built upon their reputation for reliability, kept their model lines to a minimum and kept a consistent styling across their product line. Unfortunately, as they grew they lost any character they might have had (which wasn’t a lot).

The problem I see for Ford and GM is that it may be too late to change. They are old companies with and old mindset, from their product line to their dealer network. There is still that smell of 80’s Detroit on them. I know waaay too many people who don’t even car shop when they are looking to buy, rather it’s straight to the Toyota or Honda dealer. A good friend of ours just bought a brand new Toyota Sienna, fully optioned. I asked her if she even test drove the competitors, with a **** of her head she proudly exclaimed “nope!”. When you can’t even get people to test drive your cars, let alone buy them…it’s serious.

I do disagree with Mr O’Gorman in terms of buying with your head instead of your heart. Ask any dealer salesperson what the number 1 contributing factor is when people are car shopping and they will tell you it’s looks/color. I have a salesman buddy who has told me about people who walk out when they can’t get their color of choice. That’s pretty silly, but then even when it comes to a commuter car, or minivan to haul the rug rats, the majority of buyers will still tack on the creature comforts that make your time in the car more bearable.

Tooling and unions I’ll leave to the rest of you. I’m just glad that there are Mustangs, GTO’s and Chargers for those of us who want more than a cookie cutter commuter car, but then I’m a car guy.

/blogAhhh, you're a rookie. What do you know?

(Great first post, and welcome!):thumbup:

[oddlycalm]

The new GTO is a strange niche car. Mercilessly panned by the automotive media for being a re-skinned 10 year old Holden with uninspired looks Hey, welcome to the forum.
The puzzling thing about the GTO for many of us wasn't that they chose to bring in a Holden, it was that they chose i that particular model :confused: Also, it looked better before the re-skin IMO. They could have saved $ millions and had a better looking car.

Holden builds some good iron but that isn't one of them. My tastes runs more to what HSV (Holden Special Vehicles) has on the menu.

oc

[Ziggy]

Hello Sean

Enjoyed your post

Im a MoPar guy, and that new "Charger" should be illegal.

Fugly comes to mind. I have seen better lines on a pinewood derby car. I do like the numbers of the GTO, and know a couple of guys who bought them. Again, it is about as appealing as a cold shower....

[Badger]

I think there are enough new GM vehicles that have enough promise to give me hope. Ford on the other hand, has a very bad/bland group of cars.
One of Ford's problems is they seem incapable of designing a good looking new car, that doesn't have to latch onto a design from days gone by. I know some like the look of the Mustang, and the GT, but I see them as freshened up designs from the 60's. This is the car that should of been built instead of the GT.

http://magicd.dk/images/ford%20gt90.jpg

http://images.consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/autoreview/400x266/2006-ford-gt-06114551990002.jpg
At the very least, once Ford decided on the retro look, they should have chosen the best looking version of the GT40, the MK IV.

http://ponycarart.com/images/artwork/AP0002.jpg
I am sure a lot of people (especially among the older crowd) will disagree, but the fact that the GT run is over after only three years, suggests it was not very successful. The retro look will bring in very passionate buyers those first few years, but the buyers not longing for the past will move on to newer fresher designs. The retro designs have short shelf lifes and it will be interesting to see how the current Mustang does in a few years with respect to sales.

I believe J Mays is still the design head at Ford and his ass should have been shown the door years ago. Is there anyone who thinks the current Focus is better looking than a Scion TC? Or the current Fusion looks better than the Mazda 6 on which it is based. The only vehicle I can think of that looks good from a design stand point is the new Edge. So while its design looks good, it is still saddled with an outdated under powered powerplant that most of Fords various products are stuck with. Imagine how stupid Ford must be, to have owned Cosworth for years, and yet they never utilized that partnership.

[Ziggy]

I agree about Ford, as their stuff is very, very bland. I do believe if I remember correctly, Ford gave Duckworth and Costin 100K! Pretty cheap dont you think? Granted, they were on a roll with their DOHC Indy car motor, and it was at it's zenith. Tack on a turbo charger and they got a pretty decent run on what was, in reality, a pretty heavy lump.

but topic for another thread



remember, fuel regulations killed the Offy. Who's name was on the cam covers at this time??????

Open shop? right...............

[nrc]

At the very least, once Ford decided on the retro look, they should have chosen the best looking version of the GT40, the MK IV.I strongly disagree on that point. The MkII is the iconic body style and much more attractive.


I am sure a lot of people (especially among the older crowd) will disagree, but the fact that the GT run is over after only three years, suggests it was not very successful. The retro look will bring in very passionate buyers those first few years, but the buyers not longing for the past will move on to newer fresher designs. The retro designs have short shelf lifes and it will be interesting to see how the current Mustang does in a few years with respect to sales.

I doubt that Ford ever expected the GT to be successful in terms of total sales. How many $150,000 Fords is there a market for? It was supposed to be an image statement. Trouble is that it does no good to give your image a shot in the arm by recalling the glory days if the product on the showroom floor is uninspired and boring.

Even with all the excitment around the new Mustang you can't walk through a Ford showroom without half falling asleep. 500HP Shelby Mustangs don't make an 8 year old Focus design any more interesting. Ford originally targeted the Five Hundred sedan at 50-somethings and they were too boring even for them.


I believe J Mays is still the design head at Ford and his ass should have been shown the door years ago. Is there anyone who thinks the current Focus is better looking than a Scion TC? Or the current Fusion looks better than the Mazda 6 on which it is based. The only vehicle I can think of that looks good from a design stand point is the new Edge. So while its design looks good, it is still saddled with an outdated under powered powerplant that most of Fords various products are stuck with. Imagine how stupid Ford must be, to have owned Cosworth for years, and yet they never utilized that partnership.

I agree completely, but the problem isn't so much Ford as Ford NA. Next year the Focus will get a complete facelift that looks like a Korean built Saturn Ion. Ford NA's solution to the fact that their 8 year old Focus is uncompetitive on anything but price is to drop the only decent engine and throw new sheetmetal on the same 8 year old Focus.

They seem to have forgotten that entry level cars are where people first get excited about a brand. It's where they learn what they like and don't like in a car and it's where they become either excited about their next one or anxious to move on to something else.

Compare that to Ford in Europe where much more attention has been paid to the automobile segment. Even if the styling isn't exciting it's at least reasonably fresh and there's always a model that has something for enthusiasts. Compare the new Mondeo to the Fusion, for instance.

[Ziggy]

excellent post nrc

GT40 is a sweet iconic car. Most folks dont buy books, so they have never seen the MK IV. Back in the day (and this is like '67) there was a guy a block up from me that parked at british racing green GT40 on the street. He drove it to work (and I dont know but one day it was just gone, never to be seen again) It really was a FORD.

The Mark IV was not a production car. How many did they build (my library is in the other room, it's cold and Im not getting up) There could not have been more than 10 of them.

Liked them both. The Mark IV is a way cooler car, but for different reasons. Slipper body work and a complete evolution. Racing brings that out of engineers.

another reason to get a better ladder series eh?

[chop456]

Compare that to Ford in Europe where much more attention has been paid to the automobile segment. Even if the styling isn't exciting it's at least reasonably fresh and there's always a model that has something for enthusiasts. Compare the new Mondeo to the Fusion, for instance.

100% correct. Seems like we talked about this before, too.

http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showpost.php?p=178512&postcount=47