How does Daytona 500 qualifying work, now?

[Fio1]

I know the first 2 are locked in, but how those the provisionals & top 25 in points deal work with Thursday's 125's? Basically, what chance does AJ Almond Eater have?

[pchall]

I know the first 2 are locked in, but how those the provisionals & top 25 in points deal work with Thursday's 125's? Basically, what chance does AJ Almond Eater have?


There's an arcane formula: 43 - [2 + top 35 cars on owner's points + former champions' provisionals] = WGAF that Dinger is screwed and needs to be one of the two best placed non owners points/non champions' provisional cars if he escapes being run over on the first lap of his qualifier. :yuck:

YMMV

[TKGAngel]

pchall's got it right. No one's officially eliminated, but some cars are more in than others right now.

[Accipiter]

The top two are from the top 35 in owners points, so... 43 - 35 - 1 (almost guaranteed to be Dale Jarrett or Bill Elliot) = 7 open slots up for grabs in the twin 125s for the remaining 25 drivers who include:

6 60 *Boris Said SoBe No Fear Energy Drink Ford 185.212 48.593
14 *Sterling Marlin Waste Management Chevrolet 184.945 48.663
70 *Johnny Sauter Yellow Transportation/Haas Chevrolet 184.850 48.688
00 *David Reutimann# Domino's Toyota 184.419 48.802
36 *Jeremy Mayfield 360 OTC Toyota 184.351 48.820
23 *Mike Skinner Bill Davis Racing Toyota 184.324 48.827
55 *Michael Waltrip NAPA Auto Parts Toyota 183.899 48.940
39 *Regan Smith Ginn Resorts Chevrolet 183.865 48.499
4 *Ward Burton State Water Heaters Chevrolet 183.464 49.056
15 *Paul Menard# Menards/Peak Antifreeze Chevrolet 183.426 49.066
84 *A.J. Allmendinger# Red Bull Toyota 182.856 49.219
34 *Kevin Lepage Makoto Dodge 182.711 49.258
37 *Bill Elliott R&J Racing Dodge 182.708 49.259
83 *Brian Vickers Red Bull Toyota 182.508 49.313
78 *Kenny Wallace Furniture Row Chevrolet 182.500 49.315
13 *Joe Nemechek CertainTeed/Ginn Resorts Chevrolet 182.474 49.322
44 *Dale Jarrett UPS Toyota 182.061 49.434
71 *Frank Kimmel Fast Track Driving School Ford 181.693 49.534
49 *Mike Bliss BAM Racing Dodge 181.539 49.576
4 *Eric McClure Hefty Brand Chevrolet 181.269 49.650
30 *Stanton Barrett Bad Boy Power Drink Chevrolet 181.163 49.679
27 *Kirk Shelmerdine Lilly Trucking of Virginia Chevrolet 181.127 49.689
72 *Brandon Whitt# Dutch Quality Stone Chevrolet 180.473 49.869
74 *Derrike Cope Royal Adminstration Dodge 180.353 49.902
58 *James Hylton Retirement Living TV Chevrolet 179.637 50.101
9 *Mike Wallace Miccosukee Resorts Chevrolet 171.305 52.338

[extramundane]

WGAF

The most accurate and succinct summary I've seen yet.

[jonovision_man]

7 open slots up for grabs in the twin 125s for the remaining 25 drivers who include:


Wow, that's pretty crazy... sure hope 'dinger can drag that Red Bull car into the show, would make it a little more worth watching.

So JPM is in, then, just because he has the right owner?

jono

[Andrew Longman]

Wow, that's pretty crazy... sure hope 'dinger can drag that Red Bull car into the show, would make it a little more worth watching.

So JPM is in, then, just because he has the right owner?

jono

Yes JPM is in because Ganassi (specifically the #42 car) finished in the top 35in owner points. Beyond the front row, the rest will be set onthe grid according to their finish in the twin 150s.

Outside of the guarenteed top 35 the remaining 8 spots are filled with past champion Jarrett, and the top three qualifiers on time from yesterday (Said, Sauter and Marlin). that leave four spots open to be filled by the top four finishers among the 22 remaining entries in the the twin 150s.

Got it? Clear as mud.

[cameraman]

That's just stupid. WGAFX10

[High Sided]

remember watching cartoons as a kid and you had cartoon adds teaching correct english with music, conjunction something whats you function? well speed/nascar had the same 10yr old song/dance/cartoon explaining the 500 starting grid yesterday.

[Accipiter]

4 spots? Insane.

BTW, I hear Dale Jarett has orders from Toyota to run around the back and take the Champions provisional to give the other 'yoda cars their best possible chance to get in.

[Indy]

Hahahahahahahahahaha...

Wait, wait...

No, wait...

Hahahahahahahahahaha...

[jonovision_man]

Yes JPM is in because Ganassi (specifically the #42 car) finished in the top 35in owner points. Beyond the front row, the rest will be set onthe grid according to their finish in the twin 150s.

Outside of the guarenteed top 35 the remaining 8 spots are filled with past champion Jarrett, and the top three qualifiers on time from yesterday (Said, Sauter and Marlin). that leave four spots open to be filled by the top four finishers among the 22 remaining entries in the the twin 150s.

Got it? Clear as mud.

Why not the fastest 43? :p

Nah, too simple.

jono

[Sean O'Gorman]

Its never been the fastest 43, but prior to the 35/8 rule, it also wasn't possible to finish top 10 in a Twin 125 and still not make the field.

[Sean O'Gorman]

"This is the most difficult car I've ever had to drive." -A.J. Allmendinger

NASCAR. Harder than it looks.

[manic mechanic]

remember watching cartoons as a kid and you had cartoon adds teaching correct english with music, conjunction something whats you function? well speed/nascar had the same 10yr old song/dance/cartoon explaining the 500 starting grid yesterday.

Was that one called "Dysfunction Junction"?? :rofl::rofl:


NASCAR's system right now smacks of a modified 25/8! Ya see, Tony..Just because you originate it don't mean you'll be anything but INFAMOUS for it, and that distinction DEFIES geography!!! :gomer:

manic

[pchall]

"This is the most difficult car I've ever had to drive." -A.J. Allmendinger

NASCAR. Harder than it looks.

Harder than Grand Sham or just stuck in 1967?

[Methanolandbrats]

"This is the most difficult car I've ever had to drive." -A.J. Allmendinger

NASCAR. Harder than it looks. That is the paycheck talking. He's been transformed into a neck. If you buy it, just move to southern Alabama and buy a double wide.

[Andrew Longman]

That is the paycheck talking. He's been transformed into a neck. If you buy it, just move to southern Alabama and buy a double wide.

Or he's trying to explain away why he is so slow.

In fairness, the Red Bull cars are just slow, or so it would seem.

I don't see him making many races.

[emjaya]

"This is the most difficult car I've ever had to drive." -A.J. Allmendinger

NASCAR. Harder than it looks.

Poor lil' critter.The little fella is used to driving open-wheelers.Cars that are lightweight, can handle both right and left-handed corners and brakes that will stop on a dime as well. :)

Now he's driving a fat tank that is set up to turn left on a fast, steeply banked oval plus with bad brakes to boot. :shakehead

It probably is the most difficult car A.J has had to drive, a POS is like that. :rolleyes:

[Andrew Longman]

Given how rarely the pole winner is even competitive in the race, the fact that 35 cars are ensured a spot, and that almost every team is setting up their cars to run well in traffic in the race (rather than try to win pole) its actually amazing anyone cares about pole day.

[Sean O'Gorman]

That is the paycheck talking. He's been transformed into a neck. If you buy it, just move to southern Alabama and buy a double wide.

Oh, so you've driven both vehicles?

[pchall]

Oh, so you've driven both vehicles?

Mister Two autox boy lays down the smack! :rofl: :laugh:

[Sean O'Gorman]

And Mr. "I sit on the Internet and criticize drivers who are vastly more talented than I'd ever be behind the wheel" has nothing of substance to come back with.

Tell me, why is AJ's opinion irrevelent? Because it doesn't fit your narrow-minded and unfounded view of what a race car driver is?

[Sean Malone]

I don't doubt Mr O'Gormans statement of NASCAR being harder than it looks. It looks pretty damn easy from my comfy couch. But they are 3400lb cars with little downforce going just a tick under 200mph.

That said, they are engineered to do that. They are also engineered to allow a driver to race for four hours i.e. large comfortable steering wheel with a 4:1 ratio lock to lock so that a quick jerk on the wheel doesn't send the car off to the wall. On plate tracks their foot is to the floor the entire time so there is one less thing to worry about. They only shift coming in and out of the pits so that's one less thing to think about. They have spotters to help them get through traffic so that's one less thing to think about. Seems pretty cushy compared to hundreds of shifts per race, multiple G's in the corners and no spotters of an open wheel race.

Harder than it looks? Probably. But what are you comparing it too? Driving to work? Drag racing? Rocket science? Brain surgery? A Champ Car?

I wonder if AJ would have the same opinion if he were to drive one of the front runners car.

To use AJ's comment as a chisled in stone fact that NASCAR = the best drivers in the world is foolish.

[extramundane]

Oh, so you've driven both vehicles?

Since you've driven one of everything, perhaps you'd like to provide us some insight into the differences? Thanks Sean! U r0x0rz!

:rolleyes:

[Sean O'Gorman]

No I haven't, but I'm also not the one spouting off about which ones are "easy", and which ones are hard.

[Brickman]

The Twin 125's are gone, and have been since 2005.

It's the Gatorade 150's.

Here's all the blah blah blah

"2005-Present


The top 35 car/driver combinations from the previous year's owner points, excluding the two drivers of the front row, are split among the two races. Odd numbered points positions are entered into the first race of the Duel, even-numbered points positions are entered into the second race of the Duel.

The remaining entered cars that were not part of the top 35 in previous year's points split among the two duel races, in an odd-even fashion. The odd ranked cars enter the first duel race, the even ranked cars enter the second.

After the participants are determined for the two duel races, the lineups are still based on speed rank.

The top 35 drivers from previous season's points, along with the two drivers who qualified for the front row (if not from the top 35) are locked into the Daytona 500 starting field, regardless of finishing position in the Duel races.

The two non-top 35 finishers from each Duel advance to the Daytona 500, with positions 3 to 38 (depending on how many front row starters were in the top 35 in previous year's owner points) starting positions determined by Duel finish. Drivers from the first Duel start on the inside and drivers from the second Duel on the outside.

The remaining four positions (or two if the two front row starters were not from the top 35, or three if one of the front row starters was not from the top 35) are filled by the fastest non-35 cars in Bud Pole Qualifying.

The most recent past Nextel Cup champion entered not in the field takes the 43rd slot. If there is none, the next fastest car in Bud Pole Qualifying takes the slot."

[extramundane]

No I haven't, but I'm also not the one spouting off about which ones are "easy", and which ones are hard.



NASCAR. Harder than it looks.

http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/646/shootingfishbarrelsmallmn5.gif

[chop456]

:laugh:

[Ankf00]

that was glorious.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Weak.

[nrc]

Weakhttp://www.mromelettemd.com/corporate/images/faceeggs.jpg

[Sean O'Gorman]

Yeah, not quite. I was using a title contender in Champ Car (who hasn't won anything in NASCAR yet) as the basis for my statement, you guys have what again?

[extramundane]

Yeah, not quite. I was using a title contender in Champ Car (who hasn't won anything in NASCAR yet) as the basis for my statement, you guys have what again?

Wives/girlfriends.

[RichK]

:laugh:

[nrc]

Yeah, not quite. I was using a title contender in Champ Car (who hasn't won anything in NASCAR yet) as the basis for my statement, you guys have what again?

None the less, you've been arguing a point and then directly contradicted yourself by trying to claim that you weren't arguing it.

I don't know or care whether a stock car is easier or harder to than any other race car. I'm not making that argument either way. What I do think is that AJ Almendinger has sold himself out for money and he now desperately needs to be accepted in his new series if he hopes to keep cashing those checks. There's no reason to believe that what AJ says about NASCAR is anything but self-serving PR fodder. When says something not in his own financial best interest, then you might have something worthy of basing an argument on.

[KLang]

I wonder if he still gets paid if he never qualifies for a race?

[Sean O'Gorman]

There's no reason to believe that what AJ says about NASCAR is anything but self-serving PR fodder.

So the fact that he faces three times as many drivers as before, most with more credentials, in cars that are by design difficult to drive is nothing but self-serving PR fodder?

I know its hard for you guys to grasp, but some drivers prefer new challenges where the ability to succeed is highly questionable, as opposed to staying in the same environment forever. Even if it is about the money, A.J.'s choice was certainly a risky one and he should at least be respected for that.

[nrc]

So the fact that he faces three times as many drivers as before, most with more credentials, in cars that are by design difficult to drive is nothing but self-serving PR fodder?
Now you're back to arguing what you claimed you weren't arguing. I never argued whether it was harder or not.

My point is that AJ is saying what serves his own interests. Argue that point. Your personal opinion that NASCAR is more difficult and why isn't really relevant.

[TKGAngel]

I know its hard for you guys to grasp, but some drivers prefer new challenges where the ability to succeed is highly questionable, as opposed to staying in the same environment forever. Even if it is about the money, A.J.'s choice was certainly a risky one and he should at least be respected for that.

Yay, Dinger gets a cookie for going to NASCAR. ;)


I wonder if he still gets paid if he never qualifies for a race?

I wonder if his contract has a high base salary for showing up, but then Dinger only gets a small percentage of the prize money he wins. Boy would be stupid to have it the other way around.

[pchall]

Yay, Dinger gets a cookie for going to NASCAR. ;)

I wonder if his contract has a high base salary for showing up, but then Dinger only gets a small percentage of the prize money he wins. Boy would be stupid to have it the other way around.

Only his agent knows, and I bet he's already banked the really big check.

[Sean Malone]

Well, there's a certain Columbian rookie who has out performed 40~ other drivers so far. I wonder if he thinks his grandmother could drive them.

If AJ was sitting 4rth right now his comments would be more valid. As it is, they aren't and Mr O'Gorman is trying to manipulate things for his own agenda.

[pchall]

No I haven't, but I'm also not the one spouting off about which ones are "easy", and which ones are hard.


Asked to rank his Daytona win, Mario simply says “it was a good race,” while Higgins admits the performance earned everyone’s “grudging respect” for the versatile virtuoso who would win Sebring’s 12-hour sports car race two weeks later.

Ironically, this Sunday features a similar scenario with open-wheel warrior Juan Montoya taking on the boys of Daytona for the first time.

“He’s done a plate race and, as long as he doesn’t get bored, I mean he’s just got to exist and stay patient. There’s going to be 50 cars around him and no escape.

“But he can drive as good as anybody.”

The rest of Miller's commentary on Andretti at Dayton in 1967 is to be found here:

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/35358/

[Sean O'Gorman]

So hes guaranteed a win then?

[Ankf00]

Well, there's a certain Columbian rookie who has out performed 40~ other drivers so far. I wonder if he thinks his grandmother could drive them.

If AJ was sitting 4rth right now his comments would be more valid. As it is, they aren't and Mr O'Gorman is trying to manipulate things for his own agenda.

This new Irish Sean is waaaaay cooler than OC's old Irish Sean... :thumbup: :D

[oddlycalm]

I wonder if he still gets paid if he never qualifies for a race? Not for long I'm guessing. Anyone know if Red Bull have a team in lawn mower ice racing....? :\

On the positive side I've heard he's got that business about referring to all the drivers by car number and talking about himself in 3rd person down solid though. :thumbup:

It still cracks me up to think this poor kid was deluded enough to call PT and jabber about what kinda airplane he was gonna order. :shakehead

oc

[B3RACER1a]

LOL. :gomer:

Anyone else think that a good driver can effectively communicate with the team to setup a car and then drive it well? This is what this is about.

I know plate racing is a little different...but still.

[TKGAngel]

Tomorrow's qualifying races just got a little more interesting. Mikey Waltrip is having the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica thrown at him and his team, as a fuel additive substance (rumored to be jet fuel at one point) was found inside the intake manifold. Mikey's primary car has been confiscated, he's been fined 100 driver points and $100,000, and Mrs. Mikey has been fined 100 owner points. His crew chief has been suspended by NASCAR and will be fired by Waltrip Racing.

Meanwhile, Toyota is sending a letter to all of its teams saying that Waltrip has used up 2 of Toyota's 3 strikes. The next team that screws up will have its manufacturer's support revoked.

Right now, it looks like the struggles of Dinger and Vickers are the least of Toyota's worries!

[Insomniac]

I find it hard to believe that overall, a stock car is more difficult to drive than a Champ Car. However, I find it entirely believable that particular stock car is harder for AJ to drive than his previous Champ Cars. Well, at a minimum, it's harder to keep up with the leaders, but not because stock cars are harder to drive than champ cars.

[NismoZ]

.

[jonovision_man]

Tomorrow's qualifying races just got a little more interesting. Mikey Waltrip is having the entire Encyclopedia Brittanica thrown at him and his team, as a fuel additive substance (rumored to be jet fuel at one point) was found inside the intake manifold. Mikey's primary car has been confiscated, he's been fined 100 driver points and $100,000, and Mrs. Mikey has been fined 100 owner points. His crew chief has been suspended by NASCAR and will be fired by Waltrip Racing.


That's throwing the book at him? He still has a chance to qualify for the race, despite cheating in qualifying? :shakehead

In F1 when BAR-Honda was found cheating in a far less obvious act they not only lost their points from that event but received a 2-race ban beyond that.

It's clear NASCAR isn't all that concerned by cheating in the sport... or they're fudging the penalty based on it being Waltrip.

jono

[TKGAngel]

That's throwing the book at him? He still has a chance to qualify for the race, despite cheating in qualifying? :shakehead

Its throwing the book in NASCAR-speak. I think NASCAR realizes that its hands are tied in this age of multi-million dollar sponsorship deals. NASCAR can penalize the off-track people all they want, but pulling a car/driver would probably violate someone's contract.

[oddlycalm]

Nothing better illustrates the fact that NASCAR has a primarily commercial rather than a racing focus that their BS qualifying system. What ever happened to the fastest cars that show up on a given weekend make the show?

On the cheating jonovision is right on the money as well. All this amounts to is a big pre-race publicity fest at the expense of the team's sponsors. If you really want to discourage cheating sitting them down for a couple races is the way to get their attention, not putting them back out there and focusing more attention on their sponsors.

NASCAR was never my favorite form of racing, but 1960's technology wasn't a blatant anachronism in the 60's and 70's and the fastest guys actually made the show. They may have achieved a stunning commercial success but it's been at the expense of the racing.

oc

[KLang]

The 'Nascar Scandal' is a top story on most news websites at the moment. Will it have any effect on the ratings for the race?

I haven't watched in years. I am tempted to tune in to see how Montoya does but likely won't.

[Andrew Longman]

The Toyota angle on this also has interesting PR value.

The top Toyota team gets nabbed and it gets them lots of attention. And it feeds all the Toyota haters who will forever be talking about how they cheated in their first race and are probably still cheating.

At least commerically, racing and Nascar especially is fueled by hate.

[jonovision_man]

Its throwing the book in NASCAR-speak. I think NASCAR realizes that its hands are tied in this age of multi-million dollar sponsorship deals. NASCAR can penalize the off-track people all they want, but pulling a car/driver would probably violate someone's contract.

Maybe that's what needs to happen, then.

F1 is just as much about the multi-million dollar sponsorship deals... Honda spends hundreds of millions every year for the exposure, to miss a few races cost them some of that. Not to mention earned them some negative exposure being associated with cheating... but the FIA is separate from the commercial interests of the sport and the team, so the penalty is less influenced by those things. NASCAR has no such separation, and I can't help but think that clouds their judgement.

jono

[rosawendel]

Nothing better illustrates the fact that NASCAR has a primarily commercial rather than a racing focus that their BS qualifying system. What ever happened to the fastest cars that show up on a given weekend make the show?

On the cheating jonovision is right on the money as well. All this amounts to is a big pre-race publicity fest at the expense of the team's sponsors. If you really want to discourage cheating sitting them down for a couple races is the way to get their attention, not putting them back out there and focusing more attention on their sponsors.

NASCAR was never my favorite form of racing, but 1960's technology wasn't a blatant anachronism in the 60's and 70's and the fastest guys actually made the show. They may have achieved a stunning commercial success but it's been at the expense of the racing.

oc

post of the day, right here.

[coolhand]

Sitting him out wont help anything, he is likely to putt around the back the of the field getting laughed at, that is worse punishment

[Fio1]

This makes absolutely no sense anymore! It's like F1 now, Nascar makes it imposible to start a new team with this B.S qualifying system. Now, everyone is just going to buy each other out. If you finish top 35 in points, you can sell your team for 20 million dollars. 90% of the hardcore nascar fan will not be able to figure this out, what are they thinking? :shakehead :thumdown: :saywhat:

[pchall]

Now, everyone is just going to buy each other out. If you finish top 35 in points, you can sell your team for 20 million dollars. 90% of the hardcore nascar fan will not be able to figure this out, what are they thinking?

your emoticons should be :rofl: :thumbup: :p

The more confused the NASCRAP fans get, the better.

[Fio1]

your emoticons should be :rofl: :thumbup: :p

The more confused the NASCRAP fans get, the better.

Oh ya, that's right! :rofl:

You know Daytona 500 qualifying is confusing when it becomes an SAT question in North Carolina....