Mikey Waltrip Cheating Question. [Archive]

Andrew Longman

02-15-07, 01:03 PM

NASCAR is being hush-hush about what he actually did but what is being reported confuses me.

Jet fuel or a jet fuel like substance in the manifold wouldn't boost power would it? Jet fuel is essentially kerosene. How would that boost octane as is being reported?

It also being said that the substance "oxygenated" the fuel and that would boost octane.

Now I'm no chemist or engineer, but I understand octane does not add energy or oxygen to fuel. Rather it slows combustion to make it burn more completely which releases more energy. Adding oxygen also causes more complete combustion.

I figure some smart person around here might be able to make sense of this or at least offer a better hypothesis of what they actually tried.

oddlycalm

02-15-07, 01:47 PM

No idea what they tried, but adding oxygen definately adds power, witness the nitrous oxide bottle fad. Octane delays ignition so all it really allows you to do is run higher effective compression or more spark advance.

What is clear is that it's Five Hunnert time and there is desperation has set in for some.

oc

robot9000

02-15-07, 03:11 PM

Octane is a characteristic of a fuels resistance to catching fire. The higher the octane, the more resistant it is to lighting off. So why use it? In higher compression engines, you don't want the heat from compression acting like a spark plug and detonating your air charge before the piston is where you want it. We call this knock or pre detonation. It can be as harmless as the knock you get in your truck when its hot out, to blowing a hole thought your piston/engine.

So, I don't think anything was added to increase Octane. More likely the substance was an oxygenate. Like nitrous, you get some chemical formula that allows an O2 molecule and a billion of his closest friends to combine with the gasoline, and you get a more powerful charge and a bigger bang. Bigger bang means more power. More power means faster car.

Not sure that Kerosne is of much use in the O2 reguard....

pchall

02-15-07, 03:17 PM

Not sure that Kerosne is of much use in the O2 reguard....

Kerosene will do squat.

Benzole and Nitrobenzene would be a couple of old fashioned additives for racing gasoline. Benzole has an acrid smell when cumbusted but does not oxygenate the fuel, while Nitrobenzene has a bitter nutty smell and has the NO2 in the CH chain that would oxygenate.

I learned about these blending gas for an Ohlsson .19 spark ignition two stroke and still use the tricks (and others) when I really want to abuse one of my chainsaws. :D

stroker

02-15-07, 04:07 PM

Sounds like some F1 mechanics from 10 years ago have migrated to Nascrap.

Wally

02-15-07, 04:17 PM

In any event I am getting quite a kick out of it. Particularly the heart burn Toyota and Mikey must be feeling.:laugh:

devilmaster

02-15-07, 05:40 PM

AP reporting that it was rocket fuel.

In the old days, didn't they use the 'shine to thin out the mixture?

I'll leave that to pete. :runs: ;)

Ziggy

02-15-07, 08:54 PM

"nitrous oxide bottle fad."

It's not a fad, it's a science

I think pchall is onto something.......

Badger

02-15-07, 08:59 PM

Any ideas how they would increased the fuel flow that would be needed to take advantage of an oxygenate? Is the answer you simply run the carb rich, and when the oxygenate hits it, it has the effect of leaning out?

Does anyone actually believe the MW story of his daughter asking him why he cheated. I almost cried.

gjc2

02-15-07, 09:02 PM

STD

02-15-07, 09:40 PM

Andrew Longman

02-15-07, 11:56 PM

There are some substances that will throw off a little bit of oxygen when heated, I've heard Sterno is one of them. If you can increase the oxygen content of the air charge just small amount you'll get a boost in horsepower especially if you jet the carburetor a little richer.

One rumor has it as sterno. I believe that is alcohol based and not sure how that would work to push more Oxygen into the engine

eiregosod

02-16-07, 12:51 AM

Hydrocarbons were said by NASCAR not to be the make up of the substance found. Knowing NASCAB I would not count on it as fact.

Toluene - aka methylbenzene or phenylmethane has been used in many ways over the years, most known, would be the additive that pushed the turbo era F1 engines to 1000 + HP
Xylenes?
Phenols?

The super goo sounds like something that could easily come from current F1 Tech. As far as I know they check out the fuel, not the resulting residues after combustion.

'CAB said that they didn't know what the substance was. CAB is holding back the development of the cars until the technology is understood clearly. makes sense why 'cab is stillin the 1960s.

If the substance is a reside of toluene, then 'cab cannot test for armoatic compounds. :gomer: :gomer:

Accipiter

02-16-07, 12:14 PM

Does anyone actually believe the MW story of his daughter asking him why he cheated. I almost cried.

Hell, I don't believe Toyota's story that they were ignorant of what was going on.

pchall

02-16-07, 01:15 PM

Does anybody actually believe that Jeffy Gordon's car could lose an inch of ride height, gain the handling and speed to win his qualifier, and that it was unintentional and just a part failure?

"We feel it was unintentional and actually fairly unsafe," said NASCAR competition director Robin Pemberton.

:laugh:

NismoZ

02-16-07, 02:18 PM

"Fairly unsafe?"...they mean like lowering the air pressure at the right front?

TKGAngel

02-16-07, 02:23 PM

Found this gem on cnnsi.com

At a bit past 2 p.m. Wednesday, Michael Waltrip Racing team director Bobby Kennedy was escorted from the NASCAR hauler to the gate leading out of the garages. When Kennedy reached the gate, he was issued a pat on the back by NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton. Asked about the severity of the penalty, Pemberton said there is a general understanding among the teams that they should never mess with tires, restrictor plates or fuel.

Wouldn't a team lowering a tire-pressure to a non-manufacturer recommended level (as is rumored to have happened before) be considered messing with the tires?

dando

02-16-07, 02:35 PM

Found this gem on cnnsi.com

Wouldn't a team lowering a tire-pressure to a non-manufacturer recommended level (as is rumored to have happened before) be considered messing with the tires?

Tire pressures have always been tweaked as part of the setup. I believe this refers to the practice of soaking tires, which was rumored to be a practice of Evernham and Gordon several years ago.

-Kevin

High Sided

02-16-07, 03:19 PM

Jet fuel or a jet fuel like substance in the manifold wouldn't boost power would it? Jet fuel is essentially kerosene. How would that boost octane as is being reported?

could be aviation fuel, av gas. maybe not, "Waltrip’s car was found to have an unidentified, gel-like performance additive, which NASCAR inspectors have sent out for laboratory analysis." http://www.speedtv.com/articles/nascar/nextel/35428/

KLang

02-17-07, 09:14 AM

Larry King had on Darrell Waltrip and Rusty Wallace last night to talk about this. Intruded on the Anna Nicole Smith coverage. :gomer:

I think this whole 'cheating' deal was a big PR stunt.

gjc2

02-17-07, 11:52 AM

I think this whole 'cheating' deal was a big PR stunt.

That's the first thing I thought.

Andrew Longman

02-18-07, 09:44 AM

I think this whole 'cheating' deal was a big PR stunt.

Well if it wasn't it certainly worked out well for them.

Mike Joy was on for about 30 minutes with Mike and the Mad Dog (WFAN stick and ball show in NYC) on Friday. I was shocked they were talking about racing and even they said they would never have done it if there wasn't "all this huge scandle going on".

Joy kinda disappointed them when he said that pushing the rules is really just part of the sport and no this wasn't like a steroid scandle in baseball or even a doping scandle in cycling.

Rogue Leader

02-18-07, 10:41 AM

Well if it wasn't it certainly worked out well for them.

Mike Joy was on for about 30 minutes with Mike and the Mad Dog (WFAN stick and ball show in NYC) on Friday. I was shocked they were talking about racing and even they said they would never have done it if there wasn't "all this huge scandle going on".

Joy kinda disappointed them when he said that pushing the rules is really just part of the sport and no this wasn't like a steroid scandle in baseball or even a doping scandle in cycling.

Probably because the stereoid and doping scandals if found true get many of those guys stripped of their medals/titles, and basically thrown out of the sport.

TorontoWorker

02-22-07, 12:18 AM

There is no such thing as "rocket fuel" per say. It's a media term used when they don't wish to do a little googling to find out that there are hundreds of different chemicals that can be used in a controlled energy release.

One would guess that any product that would allow for an increase in temp/pressures inside the cly's without the risk of damaging engine knock would certainly be welcomed...

One thing I'm not sure on - can anyone comment to: Does NASCAR limit timing settings or are they free?

Accipiter

02-24-07, 06:08 PM

Check it out. They're mystifyed!

"Basically, our internal investigation is on-going," Norris said Saturday as teams continue preparations for Sunday's Auto Club 500 at California Speedway. "We checked everything - every fluid, oil, lubricant, whatever, that was on that truck in Daytona [and] sent [it] to a lab for testing to make sure that it was what it was supposed to be, what the label on the containers said it was. And everything checked out.

"We have asked as many questions as we can of our employees, in as many ways as we can. And we still don't know [how it happened].

Hyder, Norris said, continues to maintain that he has no idea how the substance came to be in the car's fuel system. And, he said, he has not been informed what that substance was, although NASCAR officials say they have closed their investigation and will not announce their findings.

http://www.scenedaily.com/stories/2007/02/19/scene_daily600.html