Is there a "model year" for TV stuff ?

[Winston Wolfe]

Throwing it out there for the OC folks who may be in the know on TV viewing devices such as LCDs and Rear Proj LCDs and stuff...
Cars have a model year which typically begins in Aug\Sept of each year, and new models are intro'd and running changes are made, etc...
Does anyone know if there is a similar industry standard time frame for the TV segment?
I am currently "in the market" and watching prices fall dramatically on a couple of the LCD and Rear Proj LCDs units I've been drooling over, and the local Best Buy sales jockey and his manager didnt know about my "model year" question, but told me they "are blowing out all of the old merchandise right now" and the prices DO actually prove that...
Anyone ? Anyone ?...:confused:

Also, anyone got any strong feelings either way on a 42"-46" LCD 1080p screen vs. a 50"-52" Rear Proj LCD 1080p unit in terms of experience, usage, or ownership of one ? - I am ready to buy if this is the "season".... Thanks!

[KLang]

I don't think there really is. It seems to me new models are brought out throughout the year depending on the manufacturer. Some seem to like to have their new stuff available before the big trade show in Vegas. While others introduce new products at the show but they don't ship until later.

I will be in the market for a new set later this year. If I were buying today it would be between the Sharp 52" LCD panel and the JVC 56" D-ILA rear projector.

[G.]

Throwing it out there for the OC folks who may be in the know on TV viewing devices such as LCDs and Rear Proj LCDs and stuff...
Cars have a model year which typically begins in Aug\Sept of each year, and new models are intro'd and running changes are made, etc...
Does anyone know if there is a similar industry standard time frame for the TV segment?
I am currently "in the market" and watching prices fall dramatically on a couple of the LCD and Rear Proj LCDs units I've been drooling over, and the local Best Buy sales jockey and his manager didnt know about my "model year" question, but told me they "are blowing out all of the old merchandise right now" and the prices DO actually prove that...
Anyone ? Anyone ?...:confused:

Also, anyone got any strong feelings either way on a 42"-46" LCD 1080p screen vs. a 50"-52" Rear Proj LCD 1080p unit in terms of experience, usage, or ownership of one ? - I am ready to buy if this is the "season".... Thanks!
Some manufs. throw out new models every month it seems. They change a bell or a whistle and they have a new model. [conspiracy on] they do this so that you cannot comparison shop between stores. <cough> Sony <cough> [conspiracy never turns off]

I went with a 46 inch LCD. Viewing angle was key to me. Projections just don't have it, but that works just fine for some rooms. Not mine.

[rosawendel]

with tv's the big push is to get them out the door by the superbowl.

[Insomniac]

Throwing it out there for the OC folks who may be in the know on TV viewing devices such as LCDs and Rear Proj LCDs and stuff...
Cars have a model year which typically begins in Aug\Sept of each year, and new models are intro'd and running changes are made, etc...
Does anyone know if there is a similar industry standard time frame for the TV segment?
I am currently "in the market" and watching prices fall dramatically on a couple of the LCD and Rear Proj LCDs units I've been drooling over, and the local Best Buy sales jockey and his manager didnt know about my "model year" question, but told me they "are blowing out all of the old merchandise right now" and the prices DO actually prove that...
Anyone ? Anyone ?...:confused:

Also, anyone got any strong feelings either way on a 42"-46" LCD 1080p screen vs. a 50"-52" Rear Proj LCD 1080p unit in terms of experience, usage, or ownership of one ? - I am ready to buy if this is the "season".... Thanks!

Generally speaking, manufacturer's roll out new models every year to replace old ones. Sometimes the changes are minor, sometimes they aren't. They generally seem to "increment" the model numbers if the TV is similar, but they don't identify it by year. They should all have a manufacture date though.

If you like a particular model, try to find out when it was released. There should be a replacement coming about a year later and if you're close to that year, the announcement of the new model has probably been made.

Prices are dropping fast, but it's not so much that a new model is coming (the old ones would be deeply discounted to move the remaining units) but more because of how fast the technology is moving, reductions in cost to manufacture, increased competition and increased sales.

I'm guessing you have the terminology a little off, but if you're considering a RPTV, you don't want an LCD or CRT based one. The current best technologies are DLP and LCoS (SXRD from Sony and D-ILA from JVC). All of these displays (RPTV, LCD, Plasma) and resolutions (720p, 1080i, 1080p) have their advantages and disadvantages. You need to know which suits you best given the environment you'll be placing the TV and what you will be watching on it.

[dando]

WW, generally new models are introduced @ CES in January. Availability for those models vary, but manufacturers generally try to have them widely available for the holiday season in Q3 and Q4. As such, this is generally the time of the year for retailers to try to blowout the old models so that they can stock the new models.

Not sure I get your question about the LCD vs. rear pro LCD....do you have some specific brands or models you're looking @? As far as I'm concerned, LCD is LCD. The question should be LCD vs. DLP vs. plasma vs. rear projector. The market place is beginning to sort itself out, and it looks like LCD will be the dominant format for HDTV. In general, you should go for the screen size you can fit in your room or cabinet, and make sre you have enough viewing distance in your room as well.

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

with tv's the big push is to get them out the door by the superbowl.

Right. Retailers load up for big sales between Thanksgiving and the Superbowl. Now they are dropping prices to move leftover inventory.

I did work for Thomson as few years ago. They make CRTs for just about every manufacturer. The TV business is driven by a view factors. First, the move away from CRT to various competing formats, crushing cost pressures, and retailer driven supply chain.

Basically, Best Buy doesn't want to compete with Curcuit City on the same model so they order a slightly different model from say, RCA, than their competitors, and vice versa. Its how all the big retailers manage competition for everything from matresses to stoves.

So while there isn't really model year, the need to make cheaper and cheaper models that are ever more slightly different means that manufacturers are coming out with new models all the time. Big "platform" changes happen less often but probably happen about once a year, timed to the big holiday season.

[G.]

Right. Retailers load up for big sales between Thanksgiving and the Superbowl. Now they are dropping prices to move leftover inventory.

I did work for Thomson as few years ago. They make CRTs for just about every manufacturer. The TV business is driven by a view factors. First, the move away from CRT to various competing formats, crushing cost pressures, and retailer driven supply chain.

Basically, Best Buy doesn't want to compete with Curcuit City on the same model so they order a slightly different model from say, RCA, than their competitors, and vice versa. Its how all the big retailers manage competition for everything from matresses to stoves.

So while there isn't really model year, the need to make cheaper and cheaper models that are ever more slightly different means that manufacturers are coming out with new models all the time. Big "platform" changes happen less often but probably happen about once a year, timed to the big holiday season.Yeah. ^^^^ That's what I said.

Only without pesky facts and stuff to get in the way.:gomer:

(good post , AL)

[Joelski]

Watch industry news sites for developments and forecasts. Things like TFT, DLP, 1080p are announced months ahead of implementation. Doesn't seem like anything earthshaking is on the immediate horizon.

Look for HDMI inputs (2 or more); that's the biggie thing. It's going to take a while to fully deploy 1080p telecasts, as most equipment is 720p to 1080i at best. HDMI has better bandwidth tolerance than the short-lived DVI cables which could be a bottleneck in the future as fiber optic invades the home. Consider inputs for a tuner box (cable cards don't currently de-scramble the premium channels), a HiDef DVD player/recorder, and maybe a TiVo box. Better home theater recievers should have these as well as Fiber and Audio coax inputs so the reciever can properly switch sources. Read-up, learn yerself reel guud and go spend some cash!

[Joelski]

Basically, Best Buy doesn't want to compete with Curcuit City on the same model so they order a slightly different model from say, RCA, than their competitors, and vice versa. Its how all the big retailers manage competition for everything from matresses to stoves.



Another trick of big box stores is to sell a second tier item as their top-of-the-line model so they seem to be offering a discounted price. Research your purchase at the manufacturer's websites so you know what models are best, middle and low-end.

[nrc]

Another trick of big box stores is to sell a second tier item as their top-of-the-line model so they seem to be offering a discounted price. Research your purchase at the manufacturer's websites so you know what models are best, middle and low-end.

Yep, that's your best bet. I've seen cases where there's no "marketing" information for a model on a manufacturer web site but they have all the information in the support area. You'll also find if a big sale is on a model being replaced with something else.

Sometimes these are good buys because the next model coming has some trivial change you don't care about. In fact, I've gone looking for discontinued models on some items because the earlier model was actually better.

[Insomniac]

It's going to take a while to fully deploy 1080p telecasts, as most equipment is 720p to 1080i at best.

Just want to note 1080p will never be broadcast (at least for a long long time) because it is not in the ATSC standard. That will come from HD-DVD, Blu-Ray, video games, etc. I'd be surprised if cable channels went past 1080i/720p in the near future given the bandwidth capacities for cable/satelite.


HDMI has better bandwidth tolerance than the short-lived DVI cables which could be a bottleneck in the future as fiber optic invades the home.

DVI had the same bandwidth as HDMI until the new HDMI 1.3 spec came out. Until then, HDMI was basically DVI + Sound combined into one connector. You'd probably have a hard time finding a current HDTV model that doesn't have HDMI, so it's probably a non-issue anyway.


Consider inputs for a tuner box (cable cards don't currently de-scramble the premium channels)

This is not true about cable cards. CableCARD 1.0 can not do two way interaction so things like video-on-demand are out. But premium channels and sports subscriptions are no problem. You won't be able to order PPV with your remote, but can call it in.

[Joelski]

This is not true about cable cards. CableCARD 1.0 can not do two way interaction so things like video-on-demand are out. But premium channels and sports subscriptions are no problem. You won't be able to order PPV with your remote, but can call it in.

And just as worthless to anybody who wants to utilize their TV beyound the basics.

[Insomniac]

And just as worthless to anybody who wants to utilize their TV beyound the basics.

You mean utilize their cable TV service to the maximum?

[Joelski]

You mean utilize their cable TV service to the maximum?


Yes. Why would you not want high quality service, including interactive menus and PPV after suffering the expense of an HDTV? That's like hooking analog cable to your 1080i set.

[Winston Wolfe]

THANKS, Fellas !!!!:cool:

I knew I could count on the OC group for some relevant commentary and worldly knowledge on my TV viewing dilemma.

Here are the two devices I have narrowed it down to - which is based on 1080p must have, then viewing size, and then overall size (it needs to fit in an already built TV niche \ cabinet area - and I DON'T want to hang anything on the wall). I already have the surround sound system set up I want, so no worries there. I have done my DD on the innernet, checked a few at the stores, and comments from the sales thugs at the stores got me thinking about the "model year" stuff.

Sony KDS-50A2000 - SXRD, HDTV 1080p - rear prjection unit. Really nice picture, two HDMI inputs, good viewing angle, all of Sony's higher end tech inside, good looking box, max dimensions of what will fit into the cabinet area, etc. Problem: room has "morning sun" and it may be reflective on the screen. Other than that, I have been drawn to this set since I first started looking at Xmas time.

Sony KDL-40V2500 - LCD HDTV 1080p - nice unit, good looking, meets all dimension requirement, 2 HDMI inputs, great viewing angle (174 degrees I believe)... this unit is also available in a 46" size as well, but it at the high end of the pricing spectrum.

Finally - the Sharp Aquos LC-42D62U LCD HDTV 1080p unit. all the same specs and inputs as the Sony, but quite a bit "more affordable". There is also a 46" model (LC-46D62U) that is almost $1,000 less than the Sony 46" model I referenced above.

Anyone have any personel experience with these models ? There are also some nice looking units from Samsung, but I have no previous experience with them as a brand....
Sony models and the Sharp Aquos look really good in the stores when I have seen them, and these units meet the requirements I prefer \ want...
Once again, I appreciate yer input and info !:thumbup:

[nrc]

Yes. Why would you not want high quality service, including interactive menus and PPV after suffering the expense of an HDTV? That's like hooking analog cable to your 1080i set.

It depends on your preferences and cable provider. Some folks don't care about PPV and with some of the obnoxious cable interfaces out there the guide and menus in your TV may be nicer than the cable interface.

CC is a nice solution if you don't want to be forced to tie your new high-end TV to whatever POS cable box the carrier is providing. Of course the best solution for that is to put your cable cards into a HD Series 3 TiVo in which case you still don't need CC capability in your TV.

[nrc]

Sony KDS-50A2000 - SXRD, HDTV 1080p - rear prjection unit. Really nice picture, two HDMI inputs, good viewing angle, all of Sony's higher end tech inside, good looking box, max dimensions of what will fit into the cabinet area, etc. Problem: room has "morning sun" and it may be reflective on the screen. Other than that, I have been drawn to this set since I first started looking at Xmas time.

We have a KDFE50A10 rear projection set and we're very happy with it. I prefer rear projection because to me the direct view LCDs have too much of a "screen door" affect. Sunlight has been less of a problem than I feared. We have a lot of windows in the TV room and it's fine on bright days. It does take a few minutes when you first turn it on to come up to full brightness. There's one hour during dusk during the winter when the sun shines directly in on the screen and we need to draw a couple of blinds.

Honestly, we don't use most of the bells and whistles of the TV itself because the DirecTV w/Tivo provides the guide, etc. I tweaked the settings and have left it alone ever since.

[Joelski]

It depends on your preferences and cable provider. Some folks don't care about PPV and with some of the obnoxious cable interfaces out there the guide and menus in your TV may be nicer than the cable interface.

CC is a nice solution if you don't want to be forced to tie your new high-end TV to whatever POS cable box the carrier is providing. Of course the best solution for that is to put your cable cards into a HD Series 3 TiVo in which case you still don't need CC capability in your TV.

The point I'm trying to make is why spend the money for a viewing experience and limit it with substandard equipment like a CC? I like my cable provider, you obviously like DTV. We both seem to be utilizing the hardware provided to enhance the TV's capability, rather than simply provide signal.

[G.]

Finally - the Sharp Aquos LC-42D62U LCD HDTV 1080p unit. all the same specs and inputs as the Sony, but quite a bit "more affordable". There is also a 46" model (LC-46D62U) that is almost $1,000 less than the Sony 46" model I referenced above.
I just bought the 46 Aquos.

One major issue, which I have yet to resolve, but I will soon: No computer hookup on the Aquos. I need to get a new vid card, or a DB15 to Component translator, or something.

I love the TV. I use Dish as my source.

Now for $0.02.
I read it, I read it, I read it everywhere. The number one complaint about going large, is that you don't go large enough. I based my TV size on the furniture-grade entertainment unit. It fits wonderfully.

BUT...
I can expand the cabinet. Maybe I should have bought larger??

The 46" is perfect for the room, I know this, but I could have gone larger. Maybe I should have...
This WILL happen to you!:\

[nrc]

The point I'm trying to make is why spend the money for a viewing experience and limit it with substandard equipment like a CC? I'm simply pointing out that whether CC represents "substandard equipment" depends on your needs and cable supplier. I certainly wouldn't advise someone to pay extra for a CC set if they use PPV and are perfectly happy with their provider's set top box.

[nrc]

BUT...
I can expand the cabinet. Maybe I should have bought larger??

The 46" is perfect for the room, I know this, but I could have gone larger. Maybe I should have...
This WILL happen to you!:\

Nah, we went with the 50" and it's about as large as I would want short of building a dedicated home theater room.

It's really about the size of the room and the seating distance from the TV.

[Joelski]

I'm simply pointing out that whether CC represents "substandard equipment" depends on your needs and cable supplier. I certainly wouldn't advise someone to pay extra for a CC set if they use PPV and are perfectly happy with their provider's set top box.

Not necessarily "substandard" so much as less capable. I liken it to buying a top of the line set and attatching an aerial. :D what I'd really, really like is a remote that allows me to use all my components INCLUDING the DVR's program guide! :flame: My Sony remote is a seriously cool flipper and it runs almost everything I have, but it doens't talk to the SA 8000 HD Explorer DVR I have. My Time Warner service here is way better than the Insight crap you guys have available in CW. Girlie lives in Pick Town and has the same thing; utter crap.

[Insomniac]

Yes. Why would you not want high quality service, including interactive menus and PPV after suffering the expense of an HDTV? That's like hooking analog cable to your 1080i set.

That depends. You might prefer TiVo, which in this case the Series 3 has dual CableCARD support so that would be your source for guide data. Many people don't order PPV, and even those who do, a phone call is hardly a big hassle. Especially if there is no difference in price if you order by phone. Some people may feel that the ~$8 they save a month on CableCARD vs. a set top box is worth it. The video quality is exactly the same, you only lose some interactivity with CableCARD 1.0. HDTV does not equal VOD, Guides and ordering PPV with a remote. They are separate things.

I simply wanted to point out that premium channels are in no way limited. Basically, all the things you do with regular (read: non-digital) cable can be done with a CableCARD which is significantly cheaper than a set top box.

[Insomniac]

Now for $0.02.
I read it, I read it, I read it everywhere. The number one complaint about going large, is that you don't go large enough. I based my TV size on the furniture-grade entertainment unit. It fits wonderfully.

BUT...
I can expand the cabinet. Maybe I should have bought larger??

The 46" is perfect for the room, I know this, but I could have gone larger. Maybe I should have...
This WILL happen to you!:\


Bill Crutchfield says he's never heard a customer say they wished they bought a smaller TV. :)

[Insomniac]

Nah, we went with the 50" and it's about as large as I would want short of building a dedicated home theater room.

It's really about the size of the room and the seating distance from the TV.

And viewer preference. Just like at theaters, some people like to sit close, some in the back and some in the middle.

Also, definitely look at the TVs at the store from your typical viewing distance. I would recommend buying at a place with a favorable return policy. You may bring it home and find things you don't like when you actually use it for yourself. You probably end up paying more, but there's peace of mind too.

[Insomniac]

We have a KDFE50A10 rear projection set and we're very happy with it. I prefer rear projection because to me the direct view LCDs have too much of a "screen door" affect.

How close were you to see the screen door effect?

[Insomniac]

what I'd really, really like is a remote that allows me to use all my components INCLUDING the DVR's program guide! :flame:

I can partially recommend the Philips Pronto line of remotes. They are so customizable it's crazy. I partially recommend it because I sold mine because I really hated not having the tactile feedback that buttons provide. I did not like looking down at the remote.

There are a lot of learning, universal remotes out there though. Logitech has the harmony line which are pretty advanced and have a lot of buttons. I'm currently using a $15 Philips Learning Universal Remote and it works fine (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000ALPB9).

[Insomniac]

Honestly, we don't use most of the bells and whistles of the TV itself because the DirecTV w/Tivo provides the guide, etc. I tweaked the settings and have left it alone ever since.

Which model DirecTiVo do you have? I'm probably going to be getting HD this fall and am dreading losing my DirecTiVo for the HR20.

[nrc]

My Sony remote is a seriously cool flipper and it runs almost everything I have, but it doens't talk to the SA 8000 HD Explorer DVR I have. My Time Warner service here is way better than the Insight crap you guys have available in CW. Girlie lives in Pick Town and has the same thing; utter crap.

Lot of folks seem to like the Logitech Harmony programmable remotes. The TiVo remote is perfect but I don't care that it doesn't control everything in the entertainment center. I don't mind digging out the Laser Disc remote when we use the player. :)

We may be switching to cable next year since DirecTV has become cable from the sky and won't have genuine TiVo any longer. We have Wow! for teh interwebs and I imagine that's what we'd go with for TV.

[nrc]

Which model DirecTiVo do you have? I'm probably going to be getting HD this fall and am dreading losing my DirecTiVo for the HR20.

We got the HR10-whatever HD TiVo last winter before they switched to all leasing for their boxes. This is great for now but it won't pick up any of the new MPEG4 HD stations they'll be adding in the future. :irked:

Keep in mind that leasing an HR20 from them carries a two year programming commitment. So if you want to consider other options it's best to do it before you make the HD switch.

[nrc]

How close were you to see the screen door effect?

It depends on the set and the size. But for most of them I can see it enough to be annoying at what I would consider minimum viewing distance.

[dando]

Lot of folks seem to like the Logitech Harmony programmable remotes.

d00d, I'd trade my wife b4 I'd give up my Harmony remote. ;) I have 3 I'm using now, and I have an older one in retirement. The 680 (the Media Center version) is killer for Tivo/ReplayTV users, BTW. It has all the hard buttons necessary for the guides, etc. I've been lusting after the 880 (color *drools*), but I haven't bought one since I'm looking @ a dSLR and a DVD recorder. Daddy needs some new toys. :)

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

We got the HR10-whatever HD TiVo last winter before they switched to all leasing for their boxes. This is great for now but it won't pick up any of the new MPEG4 HD stations they'll be adding in the future. :irked:

Keep in mind that leasing an HR20 from them carries a two year programming commitment. So if you want to consider other options it's best to do it before you make the HD switch.

Yeah, I'll have to think hard about it. These price jackings suck and they are now just as bad as cable. I won't change my programming package come March 1 since they are grandfathering the current packages. My equivalent package would be $2 more (after the $3 increase) and I'd lose 10 channels...

My big problem, and it's part of the reason I switched was NFL Sunday Ticket. And I'm hearing, but haven't confirmed, that you can no longer sign up for Sunday Ticket only. (Before the NFL required them to offer it without making you pay for their service.)

In the end, I'll probably stick with them. They seem to be working to improve the HR20 with customer feedback. And I'm seeing people get the receiver free and a year of HD plus other freebies/discounts as well. Probably still be cheaper than cable.

[Insomniac]

It depends on the set and the size. But for most of them I can see it enough to be annoying at what I would consider minimum viewing distance.

Ohhh, okay. I was looking at Plasma's and I could see it a couple feet away. I will be paying close attention to how close I sit now so I will know when I'm ready to buy what to look for.

[dando]

My big problem, and it's part of the reason I switched was NFL Sunday Ticket. And I'm hearing, but haven't confirmed, that you can no longer sign up for Sunday Ticket only. (Before the NFL required them to offer it without making you pay for their service.)


I thought it always was that way? They used to have a lifeline service option for the sports packages, but that went away a few years ago (tho, it may have been grandfathered in). I tried to get that option a few years ago for the March Madness package, but had to subscribe to full service for a month (then I learned that our local affiliate used the HD multicast to broadcast all the games :o).

Anyway, I just read a piece on ESPN.com about the FCC taking a look @ the plan to make MLB Extra Innings exclusive on DirecTV (apparently some chowd fan Senator got his undies in a twist over that). One can only hope that may result in the packages becoming available on both cable and dbs.

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

I thought it always was that way? They used to have a lifeline service option for the sports packages, but that went away a few years ago (tho, it may have been grandfathered in). I tried to get that option a few years ago for the March Madness package, but had to subscribe to full service for a month (then I learned that our local affiliate used the HD multicast to broadcast all the games :o).

Anyway, I just read a piece on ESPN.com about the FCC taking a look @ the plan to make MLB Extra Innings exclusive on DirecTV (apparently some chowd fan Senator got his undies in a twist over that). One can only hope that may result in the packages becoming available on both cable and dbs.

-Kevin

I know that NFLST was that way at some point and it was only that way because that was one of the terms of the deal that the NFL imposed to give them exclusivity. But now that DirecTV is paying $700M/yr for it, they may've gotten out of that agreement. All other sports packages required you to be a subscriber of one of DirecTV's programming packages.

But the price keeps going up every year. I think this year it was $249 ($209 for renewals) and then if you want HD, that's another $99. It's getting hard to pay that much for 10-12 games a year (I'm a Patriots fan and those are the games I care about, so I feel like I'm paying that for the Sunday afternoon games not on TV locally in Wichita (KC Chiefs/Denver Broncos generally get priority on CBS and St. Louis Rams and Dallas Cowboys generally get priority on FOX)). I try not to think about how much I pay. ;)

I don't think Congress will be able to force NFLST onto cable. There are so many agreements out there like that. But, I guess you never know. They do both (NFL and MLB) enjoy antitrust exemptions and them blocking out some people could get them in hot water if enough people in Congress get worked up. To me, they are still making every game of your home team available for free OTA and then you generally have 3 games Sunday afternoon and one Sunday night broadcast free. They're limiting access to all games. Someone would have to argue that they should make that available to everyone even though it's a premium service. Tough sell in my opinion. But sure would be nice if cable companies had it. I wouldn't mind deals to switch back and forth every season. :)

[Insomniac]

Here's what I found searching around. From the AVS Forum, posted on 6/21/2006:


Q: Has anyone had any luck just getting the sunday ticket with no additonal direct TV programming... i.e. Sunday Ticket A la carte? I've heard of that happening before and was thinking of trying it out once my commitment is up

A: I've been doing that for the past 5 years. You have to talk to a manager since the CSR's aren't familiar with that. Actually, I have to this every year at kickoff. My box shows I'm not subscribe. I have to call the 800 number. CSR states I have to have a basic programming package. I tell them I've been doing this for years. They contact manager, then I'm activated. Same 20 min conversation every year.

[Insomniac]

Ohh, and another impediment to switching away, the DVR fee. I'm not going to find anyone who will let you have as many DVRs you want for $6/mo. $800 for a Series 3 TiVo plus $300 for 3 years of service. That's a huge cost. To be fair, it is $5/mo for extra receivers though.

So, my cost breakdown for 2 DVRs (what I have now) and ignoring features:

DirecTV $5.99 for service + $5.00 mirroring fee = $10.99/mo
Cable company's DVR = $9.99 + $9.99 = $19.98/mo
Cable and Series 3 TiVo = $799 + $299 + $799 + $299 = $2,196 for 3 years ($61.00/mo)

[dando]

I know that NFLST was that way at some point and it was only that way because that was one of the terms of the deal that the NFL imposed to give them exclusivity. But now that DirecTV is paying $700M/yr for it, they may've gotten out of that agreement. All other sports packages required you to be a subscriber of one of DirecTV's programming packages.

But the price keeps going up every year. I think this year it was $249 ($209 for renewals) and then if you want HD, that's another $99. It's getting hard to pay that much for 10-12 games a year (I'm a Patriots fan and those are the games I care about, so I feel like I'm paying that for the Sunday afternoon games not on TV locally in Wichita (KC Chiefs/Denver Broncos generally get priority on CBS and St. Louis Rams and Dallas Cowboys generally get priority on FOX)). I try not to think about how much I pay. ;)

I don't think Congress will be able to force NFLST onto cable. There are so many agreements out there like that. But, I guess you never know. They do both (NFL and MLB) enjoy antitrust exemptions and them blocking out some people could get them in hot water if enough people in Congress get worked up. To me, they are still making every game of your home team available for free OTA and then you generally have 3 games Sunday afternoon and one Sunday night broadcast free. They're limiting access to all games. Someone would have to argue that they should make that available to everyone even though it's a premium service. Tough sell in my opinion. But sure would be nice if cable companies had it. I wouldn't mind deals to switch back and forth every season. :)
Yeah, I just found it interesting that the chowd Senator got his undies in a bunch when he found out his Sox prolly wouldn't be available over cable in the near future. :saywhat: NFL, NASCAR, and March Madness are all exclusive to DTV, which in my mind is a short-term grab for cash rather than a long-term build the sport vision. And then top it off with the stoopid NFL Network, and I'm really beginning to get disenfranchised with the NFL. Oh well, more $$$ I'm saving to buy toys instead. :D

-Kevin

[dando]

THANKS, Fellas !!!!:cool:

I knew I could count on the OC group for some relevant commentary and worldly knowledge on my TV viewing dilemma.

Here are the two devices I have narrowed it down to - which is based on 1080p must have, then viewing size, and then overall size (it needs to fit in an already built TV niche \ cabinet area - and I DON'T want to hang anything on the wall). I already have the surround sound system set up I want, so no worries there. I have done my DD on the innernet, checked a few at the stores, and comments from the sales thugs at the stores got me thinking about the "model year" stuff.

Sony KDS-50A2000 - SXRD, HDTV 1080p - rear prjection unit. Really nice picture, two HDMI inputs, good viewing angle, all of Sony's higher end tech inside, good looking box, max dimensions of what will fit into the cabinet area, etc. Problem: room has "morning sun" and it may be reflective on the screen. Other than that, I have been drawn to this set since I first started looking at Xmas time.

Sony KDL-40V2500 - LCD HDTV 1080p - nice unit, good looking, meets all dimension requirement, 2 HDMI inputs, great viewing angle (174 degrees I believe)... this unit is also available in a 46" size as well, but it at the high end of the pricing spectrum.

Finally - the Sharp Aquos LC-42D62U LCD HDTV 1080p unit. all the same specs and inputs as the Sony, but quite a bit "more affordable". There is also a 46" model (LC-46D62U) that is almost $1,000 less than the Sony 46" model I referenced above.

Anyone have any personel experience with these models ? There are also some nice looking units from Samsung, but I have no previous experience with them as a brand....
Sony models and the Sharp Aquos look really good in the stores when I have seen them, and these units meet the requirements I prefer \ want...
Once again, I appreciate yer input and info !:thumbup:
I have friends that have the Aquos and love it. Myself, I'm a DLP guy, but I'll take a closer look @ the newer LCDs when I upgrade in the next two years. IIRC, the SONY LCDs are a rebadge of Sammy's since they caught with their pants down w/o a good flat panel strategy a couple of years ago.

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

Yeah, I just found it interesting that the chowd Senator got his undies in a bunch when he found out his Sox prolly wouldn't be available over cable in the near future. :saywhat: NFL, NASCAR, and March Madness are all exclusive to DTV, which in my mind is a short-term grab for cash rather than a long-term build the sport vision. And then top it off with the stoopid NFL Network, and I'm really beginning to get disenfranchised with the NFL. Oh well, more $$$ I'm saving to buy toys instead. :D

-Kevin

March Madness = Free on the web (http://www.ncaasports.com/mmod). :)

I don't see it as a short term grab for cash though. Both sides have an advantage. The content owners are maximizing the money they get and the purchaser gets exclusivity and locks competitors out.

[Insomniac]

I have friends that have the Aquos and love it. Myself, I'm a DLP guy, but I'll take a closer look @ the newer LCDs when I upgrade in the next two years. IIRC, the SONY LCDs are a rebadge of Sammy's since they caught with their pants down w/o a good flat panel strategy a couple of years ago.

-Kevin

The panels are probably from Samsung, but the rest of the TV Sony makes. This is pretty common. While the panels are built equal, the way they are implemented are not. Two TVs can have the same panel, but it won't mean the picture is the same. Since you're a DLP guy, that would be like assuming all DLP TVs that use the same DLP chip are the same. ;)

[nrc]

Ohh, and another impediment to switching away, the DVR fee. I'm not going to find anyone who will let you have as many DVRs you want for $6/mo. $800 for a Series 3 TiVo plus $300 for 3 years of service. That's a huge cost. To be fair, it is $5/mo for extra receivers though.

So, my cost breakdown for 2 DVRs (what I have now) and ignoring features:

DirecTV $5.99 for service + $5.00 mirroring fee = $10.99/mo
Cable company's DVR = $9.99 + $9.99 = $19.98/mo
Cable and Series 3 TiVo = $799 + $299 + $799 + $299 = $2,196 for 3 years ($61.00/mo)

$799 would be a hard pill to swallow, but I expect it will come down by the time we reach a decision point next winter. Two other factors, I consider TiVo to be an extra value over a standard DVR, and our cable carrier has good deals for bundled services with Internet.

I'm also reluctant to have the new Dish required for MPEG4 installed. We already have borderline line of sight issues with some of our trees and the new dish is bigger, uglier, and has to hit more satellites.

[Insomniac]

$799 would be a hard pill to swallow, but I expect it will come down by the time we reach a decision point next winter. Two other factors, I consider TiVo to be an extra value over a standard DVR, and our cable carrier has good deals for bundled services with Internet.

I'm also reluctant to have the new Dish required for MPEG4 installed. We already have borderline line of sight issues with some of our trees and the new dish is bigger, uglier, and has to hit more satellites.

It has already dropped from from $999. So I think $599 maybe even $499 isn't out of the question by year end. I agree the TiVo software is a pretty big advantage. I had a ReplayTV before I got DirecTV and the TiVo has some features I like that the ReplayTV lacked.

1. The ability to record a show even though it started, as long as it is in the buffer. ReplayTV started the recording when you told it to start.
2. Season Pass. It's just smarter.

However the ReplayTV has a much better buffer (however much space you had on your hard drive) vs TiVo's 30 minutes. ReplayTV's interface was also much much faster. The Grid Guide isn't even an option with TiVo IMO.

It will be hard for anyone to really copy TiVo since they have quite a patent portfolio.

To me, the price would have to be close for me to be willing to pay a premium for TiVo though (assuming the alternative at least isn't a total POS).

[cart7]

I have friends that have the Aquos and love it. Myself, I'm a DLP guy, but I'll take a closer look @ the newer LCDs when I upgrade in the next two years. IIRC, the SONY LCDs are a rebadge of Sammy's since they caught with their pants down w/o a good flat panel strategy a couple of years ago.

-Kevin

Sony LCD's are Sony's. They've dumped Plasma technology to focus on LCD based sets.

I don't really believe any of the current formats of new generation sets are the end run here. There are just too many deficiencies of the current styles, Plasma, LCD and DLP and LCOS rear projectors for the long run. Not to mention they suck power out the wazoo.

Look for SED and Some sort of OLED technology to surpass them in the future.

[Insomniac]

Sony LCD's are Sony's. They've dumped Plasma technology to focus on LCD based sets.

You can call them Sony if you want, but they bought into Samsung. They did not make those panels in house.

http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/07/25/business/samsung.php

[ChampcarShark]

how long till micro$oft starts selling TVs???
Will the M$ TVs have a non MS channel block on them?

Just wandering... :confused:

[Insomniac]

how long till micro$oft starts selling TVs???
Will the M$ TVs have a non MS channel block on them?

Just wandering... :confused:

I doubt MS jumps into that market. Although the barrier to entry seems to be quite low, it's pretty competitive.

[ChampcarShark]

It is a very competitive marquet, I really doub microsoft will enter. But could not resist a little laugh, since microsoft is trying to do everything nowadays.

[dando]

March Madness = Free on the web (http://www.ncaasports.com/mmod). :)

I don't see it as a short term grab for cash though. Both sides have an advantage. The content owners are maximizing the money they get and the purchaser gets exclusivity and locks competitors out.

This was 5 years ago. March Madness wasn't avilable free on the 'net until last year. :)

Exclusive deals are cash up front rather than a revenue share per sub. If it were a revenue share by sub deal, the leagues would be more interested in marketing and investing in the product. Otherwise, it's up to the provider to do that stuff rather than the league. The was a broad discussion of this on Mike & Mike with a few of the ESPN baseball writers a few weeks ago.

-Kevin

[dando]

The panels are probably from Samsung, but the rest of the TV Sony makes. This is pretty common. While the panels are built equal, the way they are implemented are not. Two TVs can have the same panel, but it won't mean the picture is the same. Since you're a DLP guy, that would be like assuming all DLP TVs that use the same DLP chip are the same. ;)

Point was that many peeps view Sony as the defacto standard for displays, but the fact is they took their eye off the ball with their flat panel strategy (or lack thereof). Sharp and Samsung beat them to the market by a bunch. $ony is in a real mess.

-Kevin

[oddlycalm]

They did not make those panels in house. There are only a couple LCD panel makers worldwide. Samsung and LG Philips pretty much own that market. That means for TV's and monitors. Sony not only subs out the panel but on most (all?) of their LCD products they are having them produced for them and private labeled.

oc

[Insomniac]

This was 5 years ago. March Madness wasn't avilable free on the 'net until last year. :)

Exclusive deals are cash up front rather than a revenue share per sub. If it were a revenue share by sub deal, the leagues would be more interested in marketing and investing in the product. Otherwise, it's up to the provider to do that stuff rather than the league. The was a broad discussion of this on Mike & Mike with a few of the ESPN baseball writers a few weeks ago.

-Kevin

Almost all deals in the TV/broadcast industry are that way. Almost all sports leagues and their contracts with TV/Cable have one side assuming the risk and the other getting the money upfront.

[Insomniac]

Point was that many peeps view Sony as the defacto standard for displays, but the fact is they took their eye off the ball with their flat panel strategy (or lack thereof). Sharp and Samsung beat them to the market by a bunch. $ony is in a real mess.

-Kevin

Yes, very big trouble and the poor sales of the PS3 and entrance of lower cost players are not helping either.

[Insomniac]

There are only a couple LCD panel makers worldwide. Samsung and LG Philips pretty much own that market. That means for TV's and monitors. Sony not only subs out the panel but on most (all?) of their LCD products they are having them produced for them and private labeled.

oc

I mean, it's not like any company makes every piece of their TV, but I thought Sony still did the final manufacturing of its products.

[oddlycalm]

Look for SED and Some sort of OLED technology to surpass them in the future. Probably true, but I've been hearing about SED and OLED for years without a glimmer of a product ready for market.

Even progress on something as straightforward as LED illumination for LCD panels and DLP/LCOS rear projects has been glacial. Last time I looked there was only one DLP model with an LED light source and it was expensive and had an inferior picture. A light source that lasts the life of the set seems like a reasonable customer expectation on sets costing $ 1000's.

oc

[KLang]

There are only a couple LCD panel makers worldwide. Samsung and LG Philips pretty much own that market.

Sharp has been touting 'Sharp’s state-of-the-art Kameyama factory' for their newest panels. Is this their own or a joint venture with one of the others?

Not sure who's glass Sony is using but the their latest 1080p XBR models look darn good. I'm just not fond of the 'picture frame' styling for my appliction.

[Insomniac]

Probably true, but I've been hearing about SED and OLED for years without a glimmer of a product ready for market.

Even progress on something as straightforward as LED illumination for LCD panels and DLP/LCOS rear projects has been glacial. Last time I looked there was only one DLP model with an LED light source and it was expensive and had an inferior picture. A light source that lasts the life of the set seems like a reasonable customer expectation on sets costing $ 1000's.

oc

While OLED isn't super new, it wasn't supposed to go into big TVs right away. It's been showing up in more and more cell phones and on some digital cameras. i think it will be a couple more years before anyone sells a TV with an OLED display. But the prototype Sony had at CES this year, WOW.

http://wwww.engadgethd.com/2007/01/08/sonys-1-000-000-1-contrast-ratio-27-inch-oled-hdtv/

1,000,000:1 contrast ratio!

SED has been mired by delays, and now lawsuits. Who knows when that will come around. Supposed to have the promise of CRTs in a much thinner package.

The price on the Samsung LED DLP has come down quite a bit. Seems comparable to Sony SXRD pricing. I'm also surprised that LED backlighting on LcOS/DLP and LCD has been so slow to come out.

[MAXAR RE]

Here are the two devices I have narrowed it down to - ...

Sony KDS-50A2000 - SXRD, HDTV 1080p...

Anyone have any personel experience with these models ?


Howdy Winston, I don't yet own an HDTV (I will rectify that as soon as I get my tax refund!), but I am looking at the two big brothers of the KDS-50A2000 (KDS-60A2000 and KDS-R60XBR2) and my cousin is seriously looking at the 50A2000 as well. My deciding factor is my refund check; the XBR is $500 more than the 60A2000, but has slightly better processing hardware and a beautiful case. All three of these units use the same screen and projector technology, though, so the advantage of the XBR over the A2000's is kinda like being able to go 1-tenth faster per lap than the guy behind you - it only matters when you are racing, not when you are going to the grocery store. (i.e. watching HD content as opposed to standard-def stuff)

The awesome thing about these Sony models is that they have 1920x1080 resolution, which is full HD, and they up-convert everything to 1080p which makes standard-def stuff like DVDs and satellite TV look really nice (compared to many other HDTV's diaplay of stadnard-def signal). Most HDTV sets below 46 inches right now are a lower resolution which prevents them from fully or properly rendering 1080i or 1080p. These three Sonys also have VGA connectors for attaching a computer or Home Theater PC (HTPC), although you need to make sure that your computer's video card can output a 1920x1080 signal.

As for pricing, don't rule out eBay. I plan on buying from a seller called "gear4less" who has 99.7% positive feedback with over 19,000 feedback posts. They sell a lot of HDTVs on ebay, sell 5-year national warranties and offer other accessories at deep discounts as well. I can save over $1100 on the XBR buy getting it off ebay as opposed to buying it at Worst Buy or Circuit Sc*****!

Oh, and don't forget the stand - Sony sells stands designed for each model that 1)securely attach to the TV to keep it from falling over, and 2) make the TV look even more pretty just sitting there.

Good luck, and I hope you really enjoy whichever HDTV you decide is right for you. :)

[WickerBill]

:eek: :eek:

MAXAR, I don't keep track of such things and I don't hang out on the Champcar forum... but is that your first post in, like, 3 years?

[dando]

Almost all deals in the TV/broadcast industry are that way. Almost all sports leagues and their contracts with TV/Cable have one side assuming the risk and the other getting the money upfront.

The model is a bit different when selling subs to a package rather than broadcast rights to games.

-Kevin

[dando]

Yes, very big trouble and the poor sales of the PS3 and entrance of lower cost players are not helping either.

PS3 delay, HD DVD, rootkit, mobile audio player that doesn't play MP3s....the list is seemingly endless.

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

PS3 delay, HD DVD, rootkit, mobile audio player that doesn't play MP3s....the list is seemingly endless.

-Kevin

PS3 delay? You mean from their way early targets?

Did you see Blu-Ray sales are picking up quite a bit of steam on HD-DVD? They're currently outselling HD-DVD by quite a bit and are closing the gap that HD-DVD had. It seems this fight is a long way from over.

[Insomniac]

The model is a bit different when selling subs to a package rather than broadcast rights to games.

-Kevin

Ohhh, so most packages have some type of split of the fees charged to subscribers between the two?

[Insomniac]

I'm not sure how 480i content will look better on 1080p vs. 720p. I'd expect it to look worse. Anyone know of any case where it would look better?

[MAXAR RE]

:eek: :eek:

MAXAR, I don't keep track of such things and I don't hang out on the Champcar forum... but is that your first post in, like, 3 years?

Yeah, I finally managed to crawl out from under my rock. :\ I'll probably be around more now. :tony:

[MAXAR RE]

I'm not sure how 480i content will look better on 1080p vs. 720p. I'd expect it to look worse. Anyone know of any case where it would look better?

I have, at Worst Buy. When it is run through proper hardware (Sony KDS-60A2000) to up-convert the image, it doesn't look THAT bad, compared to how most HDTVs make standard def look.