View Full Version : Robin Miller suggests KK et al cut bait and sell to TG!!!
Last two grafs of this column. (http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/35621/)
But maybe it's become too expensive, even for guys with their wealth. Or maybe they've simply lost interest. Maybe this would be a good time to cut a deal and cut their losses.
Call Tony George, sell him your assets and save money, if not open-wheel racing.:eek:
Methanolandbrats
02-25-07, 08:15 PM
Makes sense. I said years ago KK was a businessman who bought distressed assets and turned them for a buck. Happy racing!
Sean O'Gorman
02-25-07, 08:27 PM
Might as well at this point.
B3RACER1a
02-25-07, 08:51 PM
Only if TG isnt in charge and they dont use the IRL cars and go back to a good variety of road courses, street races, and ovals. :gomer:
doppelganger
02-25-07, 09:20 PM
If Robin Miller is right my love of racing is over and I'll find another way to spend my $$$.
The fact that we're having this discussion is painful.
Might be best to watch the ship sink.
TG and his league have become the USAC of old, let it continue to bleed.
I think more and more of what can start up from a fresh group with fresh ideas, instead of the same old used up tired retreads and gimmics.
Professional road racing in NA will ride high again, I have no doubt, it just needs the room to clear out, once again.
Spicoli
02-25-07, 09:58 PM
Well, its pretty obvious there's trubble.
KK & GF not getting along is the root from what i have heard, and Steve Johnson (did he used to be Stefan johansson? :saywhat: ) is doing a piss-poor job is another esounding comment. Has no clue what goes on, what needs to be done.
:clubracing! :
Anyway, at some point it just comes down to this:
GF & KK have to spend a *****oad f money. when that stops, we are done. Seems they aren't getting along and we may be done here.....or not.
so, in conclusion, things suck, and we have no clue what will happen next. :D
Professional road racing in NA will ride high again, I have no doubt, it just needs the room to clear out, once again.Yeah, but we'll all be crotchety old men (and women) talking about the old days.
"Back in My day, we had..."
Yeah, but we'll all be crotchety old men (and women) talking about the old days.
"Back in My day, we had..."
This crotchety old man doesn't think it would take too long. Sometimes what is seen and is held on to as the the last great hope is really the last great roadblock.
CCWS Five year plan
Year 4 Summary
Goals achieved:
New Chassis - Check
Revived Atlantics - Check
In-house engine supplier - check
Failures:
8-10 Team owners capable of purchasing said new chassis and in-house engines to run at least 16-18 cars total without additional in-house financing for a full season.
No series sponsor.
No paying TV contract.
Musical chairs driver lineup.
Complete lack of corporate sponsor interest.
Venues that come and go like the wind changes direction.
First it's a North American series, then East Asia and then Euro. Which is it?
Katherine isn't panning out like Danica did.
Only American star bolts for Nascar.
Replace former series sponsors pace cars with a 2 seater race car from another series that might possibly be faster than the race cars in our series.
You've now spent waaaay more than I could possibly ever get back for you on this whole deal, you've reached the point of no return. You'll now begin running out of money at a rate approaching a John Force qualifying run.
Bail out!
Bail out!
Signed
KK's ever loyal bean counter.
Insomniac
02-25-07, 10:20 PM
I don't see how that saves OWR. Would TG actually combine it all together and make it look like pre-split CART with respect to races? Will the DP01/turbo be the car over the anchors? I think most of us on this side of the fence would love to get the diversity back and Indy, but those cars are terrible. At this point, if selling to TG = killing CCWS, OWR in NA is dead to me as far as I'm concerned. I'll only be watching F1.
BTW. I wonder if I'll hit 3000 posts before this thing tanks? :tony:
Robin's tough love might wake some people up.
Boatdesigner
02-26-07, 12:25 AM
If Champ Car was sold to Tony, I wouldn't watch even if they did use the DP01. I would just find something else to do with my time. One question though, if you were GF and the marketing guy had failed to bring in a sponsor in three years, would he still work for you? Maybe he has incriminating pictures of GF with a podium girl or something.:shakehead
Wow!
Hate to say it, but he is 100% correct.
Sean Malone
02-26-07, 01:23 AM
Makes sense. I said years ago KK was a businessman who bought distressed assets and turned them for a buck. Happy racing!
Make a profit? Hell, I think I could buy Champ Car.
FCYTravis
02-26-07, 03:00 AM
Robin speaks The Truth.
FCYTravis
02-26-07, 03:02 AM
One question though, if you were GF and the marketing guy had failed to bring in a sponsor in three years, would he still work for you?
Even a marketing genius can't make chicken salad out of chicken ****.
CCWS is a piss-poor marketing vehicle right now, full stop.
CW was in full meltdown until Steve Johnson got on there and posted that everything was hunky-dory and they had nothing to worry about. Now there are a lot of told,,,,,, you,,,,,,,, so's........ flying around. I hate to say it, but that group is as delusional as TF.
Insomniac
02-26-07, 09:23 AM
If Champ Car was sold to Tony, I wouldn't watch even if they did use the DP01. I would just find something else to do with my time. One question though, if you were GF and the marketing guy had failed to bring in a sponsor in three years, would he still work for you? Maybe he has incriminating pictures of GF with a podium girl or something.:shakehead
I personally feel the on track product > who owns it/politics behind the scene. That's how I ended up with CC after the split.
Maybe the statement was vague and just meant the staff was having no luck. Or it could be the same guy. How many real sponsors are in the series? CDW? The rest seem to be affiliated with the owner of the car.
Insomniac
02-26-07, 09:27 AM
CW was in full meltdown until Steve Johnson got on there and posted that everything was hunky-dory and they had nothing to worry about. Now there are a lot of told,,,,,, you,,,,,,,, so's........ flying around. I hate to say it, but that group is as delusional as TF.
Man, the CEO should not be posting on bulletin boards. It seems like for all the things they've done, they're right back at amateur hour.
CW was in full meltdown until Steve Johnson got on there and posted that everything was hunky-dory and they had nothing to worry about. Now there are a lot of told,,,,,, you,,,,,,,, so's........ flying around. I hate to say it, but that group is as delusional as TF.
Johnson's on there? I heard Gentilozzi stops by from time to time. That speaks volumes, doesn't it? They need to quit wasting their time on fan sites and get the series on its legs. Leave wasting time on forums to professionals like us. :p
Last two grafs of this column. (http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/35621/)
:eek:
Miller is just gearing up for his annual pre Indy merge or die campaign. Robin should get over Indy like the rest of us have. Tony George and a few thousand gomers have killed it.
Miller is just gearing up for his annual pre Indy merge or die campaign. Robin should get over Indy like the rest of us have. Tony George and a few thousand gomers have killed it.
Yep. :thumbup: I noticed his complaint about scheduling the China race in May.
Man, the CEO should not be posting on bulletin boards.
Why? He has only posted a couple times and he's trying to put down a Miller inspired fan revolt. All the boards have been pretty ugly this off-season.
If you aren't concerned, you aren't paying attention.
jonovision_man
02-26-07, 11:55 AM
Only if TG isnt in charge and they dont use the IRL cars and go back to a good variety of road courses, street races, and ovals. :gomer:
The IRL is due for updated cars anyway. The DP-01 clearly rocks, that could easily be the platform for a new IRL car. Who knows.
The IRL has added road/street races each of the last couple years.
From none just a few years ago to:
- St. Pete
- Watkins
- Mid-Ohio
- Belle Island
- Sears Point
ChampCar has better events than those IMO, so in a buy-out situation you'd have to imagine Long Beach, Toronto, Road America, possibly Edmonton, Cleveland... there'd have to be a bunch of consideration given to each race on the schedule. It'd probably come down to which events have the most solid footing, best promoters, etc.
I can't imagine the IRL being too keen on continuing the overseas events... other than keeping their Motegi race. Although if you ask me, that should move to Suzuka!!! :)
Personally speaking, I've been watching both series for the last few years. I appreciate the philosophy of ChampCar, and I love the races ChampCar runs. But if enough of that can be incorporated into a single series with a great big awesome grid and solid events, I'd take it. I'm tired of the mediocrity and struggle for survival.
jono
Spicoli
02-26-07, 12:02 PM
Johnson's on there? I heard Gentilozzi stops by from time to time. That speaks volumes, doesn't it? They need to quit wasting their time on fan sites and get the series on its legs. Leave wasting time on forums to professionals like us. :p
agreed Stevie.
What kills me is that they listen to certain,,,posters,,,and take it as the pulse of the fans. "Us" couple thousand diehards on the boards aren't what's at stake....what's at stake is the general population understanding what CCWs is all about.
:clubracing:
ChampcarShark
02-26-07, 12:14 PM
:cry: :cry: the sky is falling again... :cry: :cry:
Sean Malone
02-26-07, 12:19 PM
:cry: :cry: the sky is falling again... :cry: :cry:
The sky has already fallen. The question is, can the pieces be reused.
TKGAngel
02-26-07, 12:21 PM
Why? He has only posted a couple times and he's trying to put down a Miller inspired fan revolt. All the boards have been pretty ugly this off-season.
IMO, waiting until the NASCAR furor dies down to make announcements sounds a little fishy. But if saying that is all it takes to make people believe all is sunshine and roses with the series, TPTB may just be on to something. :\
Insomniac
02-26-07, 12:32 PM
Why? He has only posted a couple times and he's trying to put down a Miller inspired fan revolt. All the boards have been pretty ugly this off-season.
Because the CEO of a company should not be responding to articles by posting on a bulletin board. Make an official statement if you must, otherwsie shut up and run the business.
Because the CEO of a company should not be responding to articles by posting on a bulletin board. Make an official statement if you must, otherwsie shut up and run the business.
Good point. CEOs shouldn't be interested in using the Internet to attract fans. I don't know of any CEOs that are blogging and you'd never see Bill Gates on line plugging Microsoft.
Because the CEO of a company should not be responding to articles by posting on a bulletin board. Make an official statement if you must, otherwsie shut up and run the business.
I've seen Mark Cuban post at avsforums and other places. I don't see anything wrong with it. Are you sure your problem with it isn't WHERE he is posting?
"Us" couple thousand diehards on the boards aren't what's at stake....what's at stake is the general population understanding what CCWs is all about.
All of this other BS aside, the above statement is the truest thing I've read in a long time. :thumbup: :thumbup:
Why preach to the converted or to the haters?
Insomniac
02-26-07, 01:15 PM
I've seen Mark Cuban post at avsforums and other places. I don't see anything wrong with it. Are you sure your problem with it isn't WHERE he is posting?
Definitely not a problem with where he's posting. I don't even care about other forums. I never even look at them. I know Cuban has a blog, and I haven't really seen his posting on AVS Forums so I can't really comment on him or what he's saying. In this case, the CEO of CC has spent time to "calm down" some fans who hang out on a forum. To me, it's concerning that he spends his time doing this. How is this in the best interest of ChampCar? If he has a response to RM, then he should either sit down for an interview or release an official statement. He and the rest of the organization should be spending their time focusing on strengthening ChampCar, not posting on forums to calm people down.
If CC was doing fine, I probably wouldn't complain about it, but they aren't.
Insomniac
02-26-07, 01:18 PM
Good point. CEOs shouldn't be interested in using the Internet to attract fans. I don't know of any CEOs that are blogging and you'd never see Bill Gates on line plugging Microsoft.
Right, so Steve Johnson posting on a ChampCar dedicated forum is attracting fans? What purpose did it serve to do that? To respond to rumors and conjecture and opinion from RM or fans on a forum? I'm sure all CEOs with their blogs do that. They respond to everything that is said about their company.
Spicoli
02-26-07, 01:33 PM
All of this other BS aside, the above statement is the truest thing I've read in a long time. :thumbup: :thumbup:
Why preach to the converted or to the haters?
Exactly. :D
i'm good, right?
Seriously, the average person here in Indy would be hard pressed to name 3 drivers COMBINED in IRL or CCWS. I do that little execrise all the time when benchracing. Oh, but they sure can name 3 nascar drivers.
Another fun one is trying to describe what CCWs is without the use of the word Indy.
Also fun is ask them where they hold races - either IRL or CCWS, and beside Indy, they usually don;t have a clue.
You've got a guy who i am sure is an OK guy, but he only knows clubracing, right? So what's he gonna turn it into- Clubracing! wEeeeeeh. :gomer:
Oh well, until we hear otherwise, its just us kids watching. Hope that's enough to please the sponsors.
Spicoli
02-26-07, 01:34 PM
Right, so Steve Johnson posting on a ChampCar dedicated forum is attracting fans? What purpose did it serve to do that? To respond to rumors and conjecture and opinion from RM or fans on a forum? I'm sure all CEOs with their blogs do that. They respond to everything that is said about their company.
Its evident that he's in over his head.
The skeptic in me sees the alignment with ABC/ESPN, jetisoning of FORD and BRIDGESTONE and the buck stops here owners attitude perfectly in step with the beginning of the CART dark days. Almost being positioned for a failure it seems.......or the dreaded M word which might be exactly why these changes are taking place.
They respond to everything that is said about their company.
They respond to rumors and untruths via the nets. It's much better than issuing a press release, which means that media that didn't originally report the rumor are now aware of the rumor are now aware of it because of the release.
couple thousand diehards on the boards aren't what's at stake....what's at stake is the general population understanding what CCWs is all about.
A) your biggest customers - the ones who spend the most money, are always the most important and should never be neglected.
B) the people who talk the most about a product are called "influencers" in marketing lingo. Marketers spend a fortune to find them. The idea that Champcar is doing something wrong by speaking to influencers would get you a falling grade in Marketing 101.
C) It's a niche sport. Always has been - except for the 500 - and always will be.
Insomniac
02-26-07, 02:51 PM
They respond to rumors and untruths via the nets. It's much better than issuing a press release, which means that media that didn't originally report the rumor are now aware of the rumor are now aware of it because of the release.
Really? Bill Gates comments on every Vista rumor? The developer blogs comment on and reveal everything everyone would like to know about Microsoft products? Mark Cuban tells us the salaries and contract information of his players?
Is it better than not respondng at all? In this case, he wasn't even asked about it, he instead volunteered to answer the rumors to a forum. And he certainly didn't stumble on it either. How much time does he spend there? If it was my company, I would not want my CEO doing that. I know it's not my company, but from my perspective it doesn't look good that he felt it was a good idea to respond, especially on an internet forum.
Sean Malone
02-26-07, 03:24 PM
I think it's silly and unprofessional for the president of any company to respond to business rumors via fan message boards. I don't care if they are "influencers". Those same people are also the the ones propagating the said rumors.
Comparatively, using Bill Gates bloggin about rumors is silly too. Although MS does use hired staff to blog about rumors such as Major Nelson (a product group director who maintains a blog about all things Xbox360) and there is another one for the Zune.
FCYTravis
02-26-07, 03:37 PM
A) your biggest customers - the ones who spend the most money, are always the most important and should never be neglected.
The "customers" in Champ Car are not the fans. They aren't paying the bills. Not even close. Steve's "customers" at this point are the team owners. They're the ones spending the most money by far - millions and millions of dollars - to put on a show. Steve's job is to find a way for those team owners to make a profit (or at least break even!) running Champ Cars. Judging by the number of announced teams/sponsors, it's not working out too hot right now.
If the series doesn't make itself a profitable enterprise for team owners, they can have 100,000 screaming fans show up and it won't matter, because there won't be any transporters in the paddock.
Jeebus that's depressing. :( The straws are beginning to get a bit heavy on this fan's back. :\
-Kevin
Really? Bill Gates comments on every Vista rumor? The developer blogs comment on and reveal everything everyone would like to know about Microsoft products? Mark Cuban tells us the salaries and contract information of his players?
Is it better than not respondng at all? In this case, he wasn't even asked about it, he instead volunteered to answer the rumors to a forum. And he certainly didn't stumble on it either. How much time does he spend there? If it was my company, I would not want my CEO doing that. I know it's not my company, but from my perspective it doesn't look good that he felt it was a good idea to respond, especially on an internet forum.thing is on his blog, mark cuban has gone into excruciating detail on the finances and salaries of his players and how they have impacted his management decisions.
i don't think the two are mutually exclusive. he should call up robin and directly respond, as well.
Insomniac
02-26-07, 04:20 PM
thing is on his blog, mark cuban has gone into excruciating detail on the finances and salaries of his players and how they have impacted his management decisions.
His blog isn't a daily read for me, but I thought that was one thing he never revealed or commented on was the salaries of his players. I guess that must've changed. But his blog isn't in response to rumors. He talks about various topics that he has comments on and things he has a great deal of knowledge about.
And like I said, if ChampCar was doing fine, I probably wouldn't care. But to me, they aren't doing so well and this doesn't make them look any better.
Yep. :thumbup: I noticed his complaint about scheduling the China race in May.
Robin is really worried that if he has to go to Zuhai he won't be able to get a track dog and tenderloin at the track. ;)
Miller has spent years telling us how badly TG runs the IRL, now he wants the whole show to be run by him. :saywhat:
Spicoli
02-26-07, 05:09 PM
A) your biggest customers - the ones who spend the most money, are always the most important and should never be neglected.
B) the people who talk the most about a product are called "influencers" in marketing lingo. Marketers spend a fortune to find them. The idea that Champcar is doing something wrong by speaking to influencers would get you a falling grade in Marketing 101.
C) It's a niche sport. Always has been - except for the 500 - and always will be.
OK, lets play. :D
A. OK - using your logic, who spends the most money is sponsors and teams. What's being done to attract them? How's that workin out? ford - gone. B-Stone - gone. etc....Yoda, Honda, etc
B. Influencers? You mean people who get free food, free hardcards, and latch on to driver's mom's for rides to races? :D check! Oh, and when did it become professional to respond to rumors via Internet sites? Shouldn't that job be best handled by EMauk and his staff? Uh - yep. To me, influencers would be people like engine manufacturers, tire companies, title sponsors...not dorks on the Web. 100 of us is importnat, say even more important than Al Speyer? Dan Davis?
C. Niche sport? I'm sure that Gerry and Kevin are REAL comfortable with that title. niche sports ain;t gonna cut it with the expenses it takes to run a car competitively in CCWS.
And I'll trhow in the absolutely CRAP job they have done on stability/consistently
IN FIVE SHORT YEARS WE HAVE EXACTLY ONE DRIVER THAT IS STILL WITH THE SERIES. PAUL TRACY. AND ONLY SEVEN OF THE EVENTS FROM THAT YEAR REMAIN.
Take a little peek here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_CART_World_Series_Season
Yeah, I know, alot has happened since then. But can you HONESTLY tell me these guys have gotten it right? It's still better than eARL, but c'mon.
like Dick Smack over at Smackforum said:
"Sucks to get beat by the biggest moron in racing history." (or sumptin like that).
[/bloggy/rant]
RHR_Fan
02-26-07, 05:14 PM
BTW. I wonder if I'll hit 3000 posts before this thing tanks? :tony:
You average about 2 posts a day so I say go for it. :D :tony:
~Nicole
jonovision_man
02-26-07, 05:23 PM
IN FIVE SHORT YEARS WE HAVE EXACTLY ONE DRIVER THAT IS STILL WITH THE SERIES. PAUL TRACY. AND ONLY SEVEN OF THE EVENTS FROM THAT YEAR REMAIN.
Take a little peek here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_CART_World_Series_Season
Yeah, I know, alot has happened since then. But can you HONESTLY tell me these guys have gotten it right? It's still better than eARL, but c'mon.
like Dick Smack over at Smackforum said:
"Sucks to get beat by the biggest moron in racing history." (or sumptin like that).
KK may have better business accumen than TG, but he didn't have Indy.
TG milks Indy, then feeds the IRL the "milk". From a business perspective, he always held the Ace in the deck. It makes it much easier to get teams and sponsors if you have a race that hundreds of thousands of people will be at, with more people watching on TV than the entire CCWS season TV audience combined.
I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that the IRL without Indy is profitable or healthy... even with it it's a struggle. Not as bad as CCWS's struggles, but still not exactly thriving.
jono
Tony George
02-26-07, 06:24 PM
Exactly. :D
i'm good, right?
Seriously, the average person here in Indy would be hard pressed to name 3 drivers COMBINED in IRL or CCWS. I do that little execrise all the time when benchracing. Oh, but they sure can name 3 nascar drivers.
Another fun one is trying to describe what CCWs is without the use of the word Indy.
Also fun is ask them where they hold races - either IRL or CCWS, and beside Indy, they usually don;t have a clue.
You've got a guy who i am sure is an OK guy, but he only knows clubracing, right? So what's he gonna turn it into- Clubracing! wEeeeeeh. :gomer:
Oh well, until we hear otherwise, its just us kids watching. Hope that's enough to please the sponsors.
He was a NHRA bigwig before leading the SCCA,,,
Miller has spent years telling us how badly TG runs the IRL, now he wants the whole show to be run by him. :saywhat:
As depressing as the article is, that is the only item I can really take issue with ... :mad:
However, he has always been too Indycentric for my tastes. I'd still buy him a beer, but with a pinch of resentment after that sign off.
Oh, and when did it become professional to respond to rumors via Internet sites?
Well this lawyer though it was important in 1998.
http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Aug/1/130891.html
Dealing with False Internet Rumors: A Corporate Primer
By Blake A. Bell of Simpson Thacher & Bartlett, LLP
First and foremost, the company must be cyber-savvy and well-informed to avoid being caught off guard. Assign personnel to monitor pertinent Internet chat rooms, message boards, Usenet newsgroups, Web pages and other Internet sites where the company is likely to be mentioned.
Using the Internet To Reply To Rumors
Marketing experts and public relations firms often urge corporate clients to respond to cybergossip before it spirals out of control. Often they urge clients to go so far as to participate in Usenet newsgroups, message boards and chat rooms to add the company's view to the overall mix of information.
stroker
02-26-07, 09:05 PM
I can't argue with much of Robin's rant, but if, and it's a big IF, there's a merger due in '08 then I'd expect CC to tread water for one more year. Otherwise, they need solve their cranial-rectal impaction problem.
I can't argue with much of Robin's rant, but if, and it's a big IF, there's a merger due in '08 then I'd expect CC to tread water for one more year. Otherwise, they need solve their cranial-rectal impaction problem.
FYI, AR1 has a rumor up saying Miller has been fired by CC.
jonovision_man
02-26-07, 11:03 PM
I'm feeling something weird about Robin Miller.
It almost feels like... respect...
Can't be. Can it? :saywhat:
jono
Insomniac
02-26-07, 11:11 PM
Well this lawyer though it was important in 1998.
http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Aug/1/130891.html
Dealing with False Internet Rumors: A Corporate Primer
By Blake A. Bell of Simpson Thacher & Bartlett, LLP
First and foremost, the company must be cyber-savvy and well-informed to avoid being caught off guard. Assign personnel to monitor pertinent Internet chat rooms, message boards, Usenet newsgroups, Web pages and other Internet sites where the company is likely to be mentioned.
Using the Internet To Reply To Rumors
Marketing experts and public relations firms often urge corporate clients to respond to cybergossip before it spirals out of control. Often they urge clients to go so far as to participate in Usenet newsgroups, message boards and chat rooms to add the company's view to the overall mix of information.
And a corporate officer should be doing this?
Insomniac
02-26-07, 11:12 PM
FYI, AR1 has a rumor up saying Miller has been fired by CC.
Bad for CC to do that over an article. I hope it's not true.
grungex
02-26-07, 11:15 PM
FYI, AR1 has a rumor up saying Miller has been fired by CC.
He's calling it 'fact' now, confirmed by Miller.
Spicoli
02-26-07, 11:25 PM
Well this lawyer though it was important in 1998.
http://library.findlaw.com/1999/Aug/1/130891.html
Dealing with False Internet Rumors: A Corporate Primer
By Blake A. Bell of Simpson Thacher & Bartlett, LLP
First and foremost, the company must be cyber-savvy and well-informed to avoid being caught off guard. Assign personnel to monitor pertinent Internet chat rooms, message boards, Usenet newsgroups, Web pages and other Internet sites where the company is likely to be mentioned.
Using the Internet To Reply To Rumors
Marketing experts and public relations firms often urge corporate clients to respond to cybergossip before it spirals out of control. Often they urge clients to go so far as to participate in Usenet newsgroups, message boards and chat rooms to add the company's view to the overall mix of information.
Right. but I said EMauk should have handled it, NOT SJ. Especially if YOU (SJ) are the one at the crux of the arguement/discussion/rumor.
I suspect you DO agree with everything else I wrote? :D
Insomniac
02-26-07, 11:56 PM
He's calling it 'fact' now, confirmed by Miller.
Amateur hour continues...
redmist
02-27-07, 12:26 AM
Bad for CC to do that over an article. I hope it's not true.
maybe it was the other way around, robin saw the writing on the wall and threw a few haymakers on his way out the door.
TorontoWorker
02-27-07, 12:39 AM
Amateur hour continues...
Yes but WHO is the amateur here in this situation? I read his piece and wondered if he had all his facts before he decided to start typing. The slam against the SCCA people running some operations was telling in that there sounds to be much more going on here between Miller and Champ Car then meets the eye. Is it possible that he was already fired before this article was posted at Speed.com? So far both are not saying.
This isn't the first position he has been fired from if in fact it is true and it won't be the last one either judging by his seasonal rants. I'm waiting for Speed to dump him soon - you can see the tension between him and Dave on windbag when he is on.
I don't know what to make of him quite frankly as I only can judge him on what he writes and from what I hear him say on TV. While he IS entertaining, it's really in a train wreak kinda way. I'm not going to say that he is the PT of OW racing reporting - (more like Mario D.) but I will say that sometimes he comes across as a "wronged ran fan", although one with a powerful outlet such as Speed.
His greatest fault? He's not very professional. There were very different ways to say what he wanted to say without hurting feelings or insulting people.
There are few peope around here that couldn't find a few things we would like Champ Car to change - but it was such a crass attack on people that pay him a cheque once a month that you really have to wonder if he had already been told that he wasn't needed any longer. I figure ESPN will be writing some Champ Car articles soon and as Speed is no longer involved with Champ Car...
Someone had hurt feelings and lashed out.
Don't get me wrong - I like anyone who TG hates, but Miller seems to be his own worst enemy.
My 2 cents for what it's worth.
I always admired Champ Car for giving a forum to a guy known for calling 'em like he sees 'em. I felt it was a sign of integrity. Now they have stooped to TG's level, IMHO.
I suspect Miller's latest diatribe was in response to him being fired. Not the other way around. Time will tell, maybe.
I suspect Miller's latest diatribe was in response to him being fired. Not the other way around. Time will tell, maybe.
:shakehead
Insomniac
02-27-07, 10:06 AM
Yes but WHO is the amateur here in this situation? I read his piece and wondered if he had all his facts before he decided to start typing. The slam against the SCCA people running some operations was telling in that there sounds to be much more going on here between Miller and Champ Car then meets the eye. Is it possible that he was already fired before this article was posted at Speed.com? So far both are not saying.
This isn't the first position he has been fired from if in fact it is true and it won't be the last one either judging by his seasonal rants. I'm waiting for Speed to dump him soon - you can see the tension between him and Dave on windbag when he is on.
I don't know what to make of him quite frankly as I only can judge him on what he writes and from what I hear him say on TV. While he IS entertaining, it's really in a train wreak kinda way. I'm not going to say that he is the PT of OW racing reporting - (more like Mario D.) but I will say that sometimes he comes across as a "wronged ran fan", although one with a powerful outlet such as Speed.
His greatest fault? He's not very professional. There were very different ways to say what he wanted to say without hurting feelings or insulting people.
There are few peope around here that couldn't find a few things we would like Champ Car to change - but it was such a crass attack on people that pay him a cheque once a month that you really have to wonder if he had already been told that he wasn't needed any longer. I figure ESPN will be writing some Champ Car articles soon and as Speed is no longer involved with Champ Car...
Someone had hurt feelings and lashed out.
Don't get me wrong - I like anyone who TG hates, but Miller seems to be his own worst enemy.
My 2 cents for what it's worth.
Didn't we, and most of all CC, know all this already? His style and past are no secret. If they dumped all the writers for their site, then I can see maybe some other group will be doing the writing. As it seems now, only RM has been fired.
Insomniac
02-27-07, 10:08 AM
maybe it was the other way around, robin saw the writing on the wall and threw a few haymakers on his way out the door.
Maybe, but given the past, I'm inclined to believe it's the other way around until I find out otherwise.
jonovision_man
02-27-07, 10:14 AM
I think they've made a mistake... of all the racing journalists out there, there isn't anyone with as big of an audience as RM has who has been as much of a ChampCar booster.
Sure, he said some negative things, but does anyone think that came from anywhere but his gut? He calls it like he sees it... if anything he's been overly generous to ChampCar over the years.
OK, KK. It's time. Put out an 18+ car fully-funded grid and show us how wrong RM was.
jono
I suspect Miller's latest diatribe was in response to him being fired. Not the other way around. Time will tell, maybe.
FWIW, I was told a month ago that the new TV deal had nothing for Robin, and he wasn't happy about it.
So, there may be something to the above.
:shakehead
Hey, just my opinion. Worth about as much as anyone else's. ;)
I had a feeling he was already gone when I first read that article. The article seemed to me to be just a rehash of all the forum rumors. No new content. Didn't really need to be written at all.
Don't get me wrong - I like anyone who TG hates, but Miller seems to be his own worst enemy.
You might be correct about that.
Back when the Indy Star was what could be the journal of record for motorsports results and reporting Miller had a pretty good deal there since he was actually paid to work full-time on a motorsports beat -- a rare thing in the US. But when the paper was "Gannet"ized things seemed to go down hill for him as a reporter with all the cut-backs and policy changes and his commentaries clearly didn't fit with the new regime. Has he even done any real reporting since he was let go by the Star? All I seem to ever see from him is commentary and talking head stuff these days.
Hesketh
02-27-07, 11:22 AM
The IRL is due for updated cars anyway. The DP-01 clearly rocks, that could easily be the platform for a new IRL car. Who knows.
The IRL has added road/street races each of the last couple years.
From none just a few years ago to:
- St. Pete
- Watkins
- Mid-Ohio
- Belle Island
- Sears Point
ChampCar has better events than those IMO, so in a buy-out situation you'd have to imagine Long Beach, Toronto, Road America, possibly Edmonton, Cleveland... there'd have to be a bunch of consideration given to each race on the schedule. It'd probably come down to which events have the most solid footing, best promoters, etc.
Not sure where the correlation is there. While the IRL car is ugly, the new Panoz is incredibly overweight. We drop ovals with the expectation of a nimble, super-fast road course car, and we end up with something heavier than the Lola?? But everyone's already praising it like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. How do you know the Panoz "clearly rocks"?
Hesketh
02-27-07, 11:24 AM
OK, lets play. :D
B. Influencers? You mean people who get free food, free hardcards, and latch on to driver's mom's for rides to races? :D check! Oh, and when did it become professional to respond to rumors via Internet sites? Shouldn't that job be best handled by EMauk and his staff? Uh - yep. To me, influencers would be people like engine manufacturers, tire companies, title sponsors...not dorks on the Web. 100 of us is importnat, say even more important than Al Speyer? Dan Davis?
Mauk is so busy whispering in paper's ear, I don't think he has time to make rebuttals on forums. Apparently, however, SJ does. What does that tell you?
The only people paper influences are the blindly loyal koolaid-drinking wannabes who are chasing after the golden hard card: if oragami-boy can get one, surely any other uber fan can too, right? :shakehead
Hesketh
02-27-07, 11:29 AM
I don't think anyone would seriously suggest that the IRL without Indy is profitable or healthy... even with it it's a struggle. Not as bad as CCWS's struggles, but still not exactly thriving.
jono
Sadly, I see increasingly less difference between the two series every day: minor differences in specifications and schedule, but both series are run by egotistical rich guys and both have fewer and fewer fans. Neither is healthy, as you correctly state.
TorontoWorker
02-27-07, 12:00 PM
You might be correct about that.
Back when the Indy Star was what could be the journal of record for motorsports results and reporting Miller had a pretty good deal there since he was actually paid to work full-time on a motorsports beat -- a rare thing in the US. But when the paper was "Gannet"ized things seemed to go down hill for him as a reporter with all the cut-backs and policy changes and his commentaries clearly didn't fit with the new regime. Has he even done any real reporting since he was let go by the Star? All I seem to ever see from him is commentary and talking head stuff these days.
Wasn't there an issue of viewing porn online in the workplace when he left the Star...
TorontoWorker
02-27-07, 12:08 PM
We drop ovals with the expectation of a nimble, super-fast road course car, and we end up with something heavier than the Lola??
I have to wonder if the DP01 was built with ovals as a backup plan if there is a merger. If you build a tub and running gear as light as possible there is no going back if the two series merge. A little extra weight and what I am sure are already designed oval package (but perhaps not built) could be rolled out in time for a 08 start up for a merged series.
Built a light weight F1 style car that cannot handle high G oval impacts and you end up having to design/build new cars or god forbid use what the IRL have at oval only events.
I don't think an extra 250lbs to make the car a two way car is too much to ask. Other then crappies - who the hell else will even notice??
jonovision_man
02-27-07, 12:26 PM
Not sure where the correlation is there. While the IRL car is ugly, the new Panoz is incredibly overweight. We drop ovals with the expectation of a nimble, super-fast road course car, and we end up with something heavier than the Lola?? But everyone's already praising it like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. How do you know the Panoz "clearly rocks"?
I may have overspoke somewhat... we haven't seen it in a race yet. But in testing it looked pretty fantastic from what I saw. Sounds like laptimes should fall, the car is designed with the right things in mind (overtaking, cost).
I thought it was the same weight as the Lola?
Oh yeah, and it's beautiful. :)
jono
Wasn't there an issue of viewing porn online in the workplace when he left the Star...
No, no, no, no, no. He sent emails with profanities in them.
Other then crappies - who the hell else will even notice??We will.
Opposite Lock
02-27-07, 12:33 PM
I don't think an extra 250lbs to make the car a two way car is too much to ask.
Is that from the on-board starter?
:gomer:
No, no, no, no, no. He sent emails with profanities in them.
Correct.
:shakeheadwhy the shakiehead, Cam? Spill it. What do you know?
Robin Miller is more entertaining than a Champcar race, so I'm pissed off at this move.
Warlock!
02-27-07, 01:02 PM
Robin Miller is more entertaining than a Champcar race, so I'm pissed off at this move.
:D
TorontoWorker
02-27-07, 01:11 PM
We will.
But your certifiable like me so "we" don't count.:)
Racing Truth
02-27-07, 01:20 PM
A) your biggest customers - the ones who spend the most money, are always the most important and should never be neglected.
B) the people who talk the most about a product are called "influencers" in marketing lingo. Marketers spend a fortune to find them. The idea that Champcar is doing something wrong by speaking to influencers would get you a falling grade in Marketing 101.
C) It's a niche sport. Always has been - except for the 500 - and always will be.
:saywhat: Query: Who the H=LL do the mental degenerates at ChampCarOrgies err Fantasies, err Fanatics "influence?" Fellow mental degenerates? Commatard wannabes? Paranoid delusionals?
These tools probably couldn't influence the parents they still live with. Besides, these people aren't going anywhere, so why fight for them?
"Base politics" only gets you so far. Just ask Howard Dean and Karl Rove.
Insomniac
02-27-07, 01:26 PM
Not sure where the correlation is there. While the IRL car is ugly, the new Panoz is incredibly overweight. We drop ovals with the expectation of a nimble, super-fast road course car, and we end up with something heavier than the Lola?? But everyone's already praising it like it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. How do you know the Panoz "clearly rocks"?
You must be confused. CC did not drop ovals to make room for the DP01. They dropped them because they had only 1 left and no one was showing up to it.
The DP01 was designed to also race on ovals. Not road course/street circuits only.
Spicoli
02-27-07, 01:53 PM
:shakehead
i'm hearing he wrote the article, and THEN he got the pink slip. But that's what I have heard second hand, from someone who would know.
However, it seems to me that he'll prolly still write for Speed, and prolly still get into the races, I guess? :p
and my man Hesketh is on a roll! :D:thumbup:
i'm hearing he wrote the article, and THEN he got the pink slip. But that's what I have heard second hand, from someone who would know.
@ least he went out with a bang. :thumbup:
-Kevin
Andrew Longman
02-27-07, 02:47 PM
Tough, grumpy room.;)
The last few years, since he left the Star, Robin seems to have been promoting himself as more of a "personality" than a journalist. Getting noticed seemed more important than actually reporting news and analysis.
I'm OK with that to a point. This whole business is about promotion and the entire news industry seems more interested (because I guess the public is) in entertainment than news. (see Smith, Anna Nicole, etc.). In other words, how else is he supposed to earn a check?
Since CC didn't apparently slot him in at ABC, who previously fired Robin, I guess Robin will hang out at Speed to bash the racing being shown over on the Disney networks. Makes sense.
As for how fd up CC is or is not. I'll wait for the season. I learned about five years into the split how to keep the D&G from ruining what little fun I have.
:Just ask Karl Rove.
Ask Gore and Kerry if base politics work.
I'm sure Steve would chat with you guys too, if you could just resist the temptation to write "Spicoli licks donkey balls" for ten minutes, but its a free country. You gotta do what you gotta do.
Insomniac
02-27-07, 04:51 PM
I'm sure Steve would chat with you guys too, if you could just resist the temptation to write "Spicoli licks donkey balls" for ten minutes, but its a free country. You gotta do what you gotta do.
I'd prefer it if he would spend less time worrying about chatting with us to respond to rumors and more time on keeping CC around.
I'm sure Steve would chat with you guys too, if you could just resist the temptation to write "Spicoli licks donkey balls" for ten minutes, but its a free country. You gotta do what you gotta do.See, here's the thing, I don't want to speak for the mods or other board members, but we don't really want "insiders" posting here. When those guys show up, the whole place turns into one big @$$ kissing contest and pretty soon the ,,,,,,s are flying. I love that on OffCamber we can discuss Champ Car's flaws without being vilified by other board members or pacified by "Everything-will-be-alright" posts by the PTB. :thumbup:
Ed_Severson
02-27-07, 04:59 PM
While the IRL car is ugly, the new Panoz is incredibly overweight. We drop ovals with the expectation of a nimble, super-fast road course car, and we end up with something heavier than the Lola??
Not really looking for an argument here, but why does it matter? I understand that to some degree it matters because it was advertised that way, and I understand the natural racer's desire to have a lighter car with more power and stickier tires, but really ... from an operational point of view, what difference does it make? Even with a heavier car, you can still go faster by making gains in the L/D department and the Panoz has achieved that. I'll be surprised if we're not breaking track records regularly in good weather this season -- not by monster increments or anything, but by a tenth or two, maybe a bit more. If we give the fans a faster car, and it plays more nicely with itself than the Lola did in traffic, aside from the obvious credibility loss in not delivering what we advertised, does it really make any difference to the consumer?
Well KK is off the slopes and back to work.
http://flightaware.com/live/flight/N144KK
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