Are hybrids as energy efficeint as they say?

[coolhand]

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188


The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

I knew for awhile that the powerful batteries they used are just toxic dumps but I did not know the path that Toyota went to having them made :eek: Plus the new EPA standards were changed in part to the hybrid phenomenon. Nothing like spending a lot of money on a "Pious" only to be supporting chemical waste.

[coolhand]

Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage

http://clubs.ccsu.edu/recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188


The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care. Unfortunately for them, their ultimate ‘green car’ is the source of some of the worst pollution in North America; it takes more combined energy per Prius to produce than a Hummer.

I knew for awhile that the powerful batteries they used are just toxic dumps but I did not know the path that Toyota went to having them made :eek: Plus the new EPA standards were changed in part to the hybrid phenomenon. Nothing like spending a lot of money on a "Pious" only to be supporting chemical waste.


So, if you are really an environmentalist - ditch the Prius. Instead, buy one of the most economical cars available - a Toyota Scion xB. The Scion only costs a paltry $0.48 per mile to put on the road. If you are still obsessed over gas mileage - buy a Chevy Aveo and fix that lead foot.

[Sean Malone]

Yes.

[Sean Malone]

No.

[emjaya]

No.

Damn, I was going to do the same thing.:rofl:

[coolhand]

did not notice that, i edited the OP and it made a copy?

[nrc]

did not notice that, i edited the OP and it made a copy?

Somehow you ended up with two threads which I combined. I'm guessing you clicked the back button to edit the post and it actually took you back to the the create thread form.

But on the original topic - no, I don't think so. I've read that the EPA is revising the fuel economy tests and it will probably reduce the mileage ratings for most hybrids.

[coolhand]

Thanks boss

[nrc]

Story on the new fuel economy testing starting with 2008 models.

http://www.edmunds.com/advice/specialreports/articles/118986/article.html


Hybrid fuel economy will drop
In general, in order to get the highest window sticker possible, ultrahigh fuel economy vehicles like hybrids have, more than any other class of vehicle, been developed and tuned around the idea of doing well on the FTP and HFET test cycles. Reports from consumers that hybrids don't get anything close to the label values are an illustration of how unrealistic the outgoing tests have been, and illustrate the need for a realistic test method since manufacturers will "teach to the test" as much as they can.

[Ankf00]

TDI, bitches. 'specially w/ the new low sulfur fuels :cool:

[Andrew Longman]

I've been to Sudbury and it is indeed a scary place. It looks like the moon.

However, the EPA ratings and issues of battery disposal aside, the piece makes a thin or at least unsupported argument.

Where does the cost per mile come from? What's do bad/different about shipping material and parts all over the world to make a Prius? What is so much more energy intensitive about making a Prius? What makes them think a Prius will last only 100K miles and a Hummer 300K? 45mpg is still a heck of a lot better than whatever a Hummer gets. As a company Toyota is a whole lot greener and more efficient than GM.

I'm not buying a hybrid but not because it isn't green enough.

[coolhand]

Where does the cost per mile come from? What's do bad/different about shipping material and parts all over the world to make a Prius? What is so much more energy intensitive about making a Prius? What makes them think a Prius will last only 100K miles and a Hummer 300K? 45mpg is still a heck of a lot better than whatever a Hummer gets. As a company Toyota is a whole lot greener and more efficient than GM.

The cost in terms of energy it takes to send the parts around the world to make it when the Hummer is made in one place. That is what I got out of it. Also it claims the Hummer lasts longer then the prius so over time it it more efficient

[KLang]

I wonder how many Hummers will see 300k? My guess would be not many.

Don't see any yet, but I would be interested in seeing a rebuttal article.

Edit: According to This Link (http://ccsucarclub.com/index.php?page=members), the author of the article drives a '69 Cougar and a '95 Trans Am. Predisposed to dislike hybrids perhaps?

[Ankf00]

the intro sentence shows all:


The Toyota Prius has become the flagship car for those in our society so environmentally conscious that they are willing to spend a premium to show the world how much they care.

maybe they're spending it b/c the tax credit is nice, maybe they like being able to last longer on a single tank, maybe they get it b/c they like the looks, or they like the quietness while sitting in traffic.

how does he know?

300K for a hummer is laughable. And seeing as I logged 50K miles in 2 years driving around Tejas, I'd say that gas savings through that or a TDI would show up quicker for me than 5 years.

[Ankf00]

counterpoint to the hummer is green article: http://ww.autobloggreen.com/2006/10/05/oh-so-a-hummer-is-not-greener-a-prius/


As with any model, it is critical that the methodology is valid, the assumptions are sound, and the data accurate. The CNW study makes several assumptions which undermine the conclusions arrived at. Without a scientific peer review, it is impossible to comment on any of these factors.

What is clear, however, is that the conclusions appear to be very different from the results of several other rigorous, scientifically-reviewed studies of the lifecycle impact of vehicles (e.g. Argonne National Laboratory, Massachusetts Institute of Technology).

Example 1: These studies conclude that the majority (80-85%) of the total lifetime energy use of a vehicle comes from the driving stage, with the remainder coming from the remaining stages of a vehicle life, whereas the CNW study shows these percentages to be reversed.
Example 2: Two Toyota models mentioned in the report, the Scion xA and xB sold only in the USA, are engineered with the same processes, built on the same assembly line, transported and shipped together, distributed through the same dealer network, have the same engines and transmissions, are about the same weight (within 50 lbs.), and have very similar fuel consumption ratings (one just over 35 mpg combined, the other just below 35), yet the CNW study shows the lifetime energy use of these vehicles to be very different (53 per cent).
Example 3: The CNW study states that hybrids require more lifetime energy than even large SUVs. Toyota's internal analysis does conclude that there is more energy required in the materials production stage for a hybrid, but that this is overwhelmingly made up for in the driving stage (the 80-85% stage), causing the hybrid to have a significantly lower lifetime energy use.
There are also basic factual errors in the report, for example CNW claim that the hybrid batteries are not recycled.

[Spicoli]

Prius.


It's like driving a PT Cruiser, only more stoopider.:gomer:

[Ankf00]

also, what of the the costs of mining, processing, and transporting the bulk materials for the much more massive hummer? and consider the exploration, drilling, storage, transport, refining, & final transport cost of the extra gas the Hummer consumes. then there's the environmental cost of the emissions, road maintenance for the damage of all that extra tonnage...


you'd think that dude would have the presence to cite the CNW study he's gleaning his info from, which would add some credibility to the opinion column... up until the CNW bit gets debunked

[Insomniac]

It's hard to believe everything this guy says. He comes across as biased against hybrids throughout the article.

He does raise a good point in that there is a big cost to the environment to produce a Prius.

However, he did make a pretty big mistake. The Hummer (H3) that costs $1.949 per mile over it's life only had an estimated life of 207,000 miles. The H2 costs $3.027 per mile with an estimated life of 197,000 miles and the H1 costs $3.505 per mile with an estimated life of 379,000 miles. The Prius at $3.249 per mile has an estimated life of 109,000 miles.


Finally, the “Estimated Life in Miles” is based on historical data as well as manufacturer information and real-world life-cycle information that average the miles over comparable historic models as well as a CNW analysis of repair and replacement as well as scrappage records. In effect, the miles figure here is a realistic approximation of the likely life-cycle of the individual models.

[Insomniac]

Also, if you want to see the old/new EPA numbers for cars back to 1985:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

[Opposite Lock]

maybe they get it b/c they like the looks

un-possible.

[Ankf00]

un-possible.

if people will buy Aztecs and Elements, anything is possible.

[oddlycalm]

TDI, bitches. 'specially w/ the new low sulfur fuels :cool: I agree for the most part but it's not a one application world.

Hybrids shine in urban/suburban driving where they can take advantage of regeneration during braking and the torque from the electric motor launches the car well. For lots of short trips they are also good regardless of where you live, but they suck for highway driving where you're at the mercy of the 76hp pea shooter engine. Anyone that's driven a hybrid up the long steep grades we have in the West knows that one size does not fit all.

TDI is much better for highway driving and for urban driving where the trips are longer. Warmup time is the big limitation in my experience, particularly if you live anywhere winter happens. Modern synthetic lubes have helped a lot and so have ceramic parts, but if 90% of your trips are short ones it's not the idea setup.

BTW, the opinion article is unsupported rubbish.

oc