Homestead Indy PRO(?) "Race"

[NismoZ]

Demo derby, flying cars, multi-car pileups, broken bones, helicopter rides, torn up catch fencing...red flagged, mercifully. These cars (and drivers) are oval track approved but the DP01 isn't going to work for The League? (FTG's interview) Perez has 2 broken legs and who knows what else. And Milka can go right to the top because...? Geez, I wish Jay Howard was in Atlantics!

[Sean O'Gorman]

And Milka can go right to the top because...?

Because that is how flotation devices work?

[Chief]

What did you expect? It's a preparatory league for the IRL.

And just think, they have cancelled pre-Indy tests because they don't "need" them.

[NismoZ]

Yep, when (if) their bones mend, they'll be ready!

[Ozarkian]

What did you expect? It's a preparatory league for the IRL.

Yep, and from the sound of things, its working pretty well.

[Jervis Tetch 1]

I'm just glad Perez wasn't gravely injured. You don't want to see that.

[Chitowncartfreak]

From Paddocktalk:

Medical update from Dr. Michael Olinger, IRL medical director provided a medical update last night on the condition of IRL Indy Pro driver Pablo Perez:

"Pablo Perez is in serious but stable condition at Jackson Memorial Hospital. He is undergoing surgery on the lower extremities of both legs below the knee and will undergo a CAT scan later tonight. His injuries will be evaluated following surgery and the CAT scan. "

A further medical update will be given when available, but was not expected until at least today.

[G.]

I'm just glad Perez wasn't gravely injured. You don't want to see that.from speedtv



The 24-year-old native of Argentina was airlifted to Jackson Memorial Hospital and undergoing surgery on both legs Saturday night. His lower extremity injuries were termed “gruesome” by an observer in Turn 2 and it was believed surgeons are fighting to save both legs.
Sound grave to me.

Hope he's ok.:(

[Accipiter]

Here's hoping the kid makes a full recovery.

The IPS tubs are built to the same standard as the IRL cars, are they not?

[Fio1]

:shakehead What happened?:flame:

[Insomniac]

from speedtv


Sound grave to me.

Hope he's ok.:(

Wow, when I read an article on ESPN last night it seemed like he had two broken legs and that was about it. They were talking about him being alert and communicating.

[Peter Olivola]

Which is the same standard as the CCWS tubs. Don't go there.


Here's hoping the kid makes a full recovery.

The IPS tubs are built to the same standard as the IRL cars, are they not?

[Peter Olivola]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2Knfb-BApg



:shakehead What happened?:flame:

[pchall]

That video clip was hideous to watch.

[emjaya]

Nasty.Hope he's ok.

[Insomniac]

Which is the same standard as the CCWS tubs. Don't go there.

Since you bring this up, do you mean safety crash standard wise? Because, from my perspective, that's not the problem, it's the way the car lifts off the ground when air gets under it. I can't remember the last time I saw a ChampCar get air underneath and behave like that.

[jonovision_man]

Very lucky guy... when he hits that post in the fencing... stomach turning.

[dando]

Stable after an initial surgery:

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=1&id=2812083

:thumbup:

-Kevin

[Peter Olivola]

Then you've never seen an open wheel car climb the wheels of another open wheel car. It had nothing to do with aerodynamics. It was a classic wheel climbing incident. Once the car goes beyond 30 degrees, it doesn't matter how it was designed. There is no aerodynamic cure for that angle of attack. Removing the wings wouldn't even make much difference and tunnels won't function at that point.


Since you bring this up, do you mean safety crash standard wise? Because, from my perspective, that's not the problem, it's the way the car lifts off the ground when air gets under it. I can't remember the last time I saw a ChampCar get air underneath and behave like that.

[jonovision_man]

Then you've never seen an open wheel car climb the wheels of another open wheel car. It had nothing to do with aerodynamics. It was a classic wheel climbing incident. Once the car goes beyond 30 degrees, it doesn't matter how it was designed. There is no aerodynamic cure for that angle of attack. Removing the wings wouldn't even make much difference and tunnels won't function at that point.

A few examples from F1:

Jacques hits Ralf:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_0fwE3PRHg

Ralf hits Rubens:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfFro5vH5I8

There are some fatal accidents that follow this, ie. Krosnoff in ChampCar in Toronto. :( I won't post a link to it since it's a fatality, but he basically hits the back of another car and his is shot up into the air.

jono

[nrc]

Which is the same standard as the CCWS tubs. Don't go there.

Does that mean that the answer to his question is, "Yes?"

[Insomniac]

Then you've never seen an open wheel car climb the wheels of another open wheel car. It had nothing to do with aerodynamics. It was a classic wheel climbing incident. Once the car goes beyond 30 degrees, it doesn't matter how it was designed. There is no aerodynamic cure for that angle of attack. Removing the wings wouldn't even make much difference and tunnels won't function at that point.

Just last year in Cleveland:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IW_4QaRRYVw

[Fio1]

The guy is lucky to be a live.

This was an accident that can happen in any open wheel series. The problem is making a series where all the cars are stuck together like glue on an oval is a recipe for diaster.

[Rogue Leader]

Reminds me of Brack's accident, except Brack's was more violent, this one was for lack of a better word, more gruesome.

I hope he is ok!

[robot9000]

Then you've never seen an open wheel car climb the wheels of another open wheel car. It had nothing to do with aerodynamics. It was a classic wheel climbing incident. Once the car goes beyond 30 degrees, it doesn't matter how it was designed. There is no aerodynamic cure for that angle of attack. Removing the wings wouldn't even make much difference and tunnels won't function at that point.

Bullchit !

You don't see F1, CC, or Atlantics rocket skyward when they touch wheels. Do they get some air ? Yep! Do they go over each other? Yep!

When there were safety problems in CC, they had a fix designed into the next years updates (or sooner if needed - better/stronger foot boxes, additonal bulkheads, side impact improvement, higher side/head protection. They INVENTED the mobile medical center. ). When the cars did endo's at Le Mans, they (Mercedes?) pulled the cars. I can't think of a series that doesn't put driver safety first. Well, besides the IRL....

The IRL just shrugges their shoulders and walks away. Mario does an imitation of an F18 from hitting STYROFOAM and the league does..........Nothing ! (Well, in fairness they did go visit the state of denial and say the cars were safe. I guess they are if you don't actually try to drive one.)

There are wayy to many IRL drivers that have been chewed up the last 10 years. What series has the same number of people killed, paralized, or so crippled they can't even push pedals in a race car? There is a pattern here -

Bad seating position + engine in your back = broken back. Answer = deny its a problem.

Cars that get Big Air when they crash. Answer = deny its a problem.

Footboxes made of paper mache. Answer = deny its a problem.

Hell, NASCAR denys it has problems, but it eventually came round and (in their way) is addressing some of the issues. What does the IRL need? Sam Hornish (or more importantly to TG and BB - Danica) to be gravely injured before they act? Do they need to sacrafice a sacred cow before they do anything? Or is it okay if the 2nd and 3rd string guys keep getting torn up.

I bet if it was Scotty Goodyear or (Gasp!) Danica in the car instead of Renna/Brack/Schmidt/Zampedrie/Fox/Perez/Junquera/Calkins/Durant/Guthrie/etc, changes would have been on for the next race.

The technology to prevent, or at least fix many of their problems is there. They CHOOSE not to use it. Or they cut corners. They use mandated wing angles the size of billiard tables and now they are regulating the upper rear wing element. Talk about a bandaid !! Or they mount chunks of CF in hopes it 'attenuates' enought energy to keep a drivers spinal bones from breaking. How about a new car ?

Look at what Legg went though at RA. She was going as fast as they do an an oval - she was hauling ***, and she had a very oval like crash. Eveyone thought she was dead. She was waving the the crowd 45 min later.

There is nothing you can do? :rolleyes: :shakehead

Bullcrap :flame:

[Fio1]

I found out more about this kid. His brother races in the World Rally Championship and was due to race in Portugal. His father is well known in South America: http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/10/6JFL.html

I hope he recovers from this.

[Insomniac]

Bullchit !

You don't see F1, CC, or Atlantics rocket skyward when they touch wheels. Do they get some air ? Yep! Do they go over each other? Yep!

When there were safety problems in CC, they had a fix designed into the next years updates (or sooner if needed - better/stronger foot boxes, additonal bulkheads, side impact improvement, higher side/head protection. They INVENTED the mobile medical center. ). When the cars did endo's at Le Mans, they (Mercedes?) pulled the cars. I can't think of a series that doesn't put driver safety first. Well, besides the IRL....

The IRL just shrugges their shoulders and walks away. Mario does an imitation of an F18 from hitting STYROFOAM and the league does..........Nothing ! (Well, in fairness they did go visit the state of denial and say the cars were safe. I guess they are if you don't actually try to drive one.)

There are wayy to many IRL drivers that have been chewed up the last 10 years. What series has the same number of people killed, paralized, or so crippled they can't even push pedals in a race car? There is a pattern here -

Bad seating position + engine in your back = broken back. Answer = deny its a problem.

Cars that get Big Air when they crash. Answer = deny its a problem.

Footboxes made of paper mache. Answer = deny its a problem.

Hell, NASCAR denys it has problems, but it eventually came round and (in their way) is addressing some of the issues. What does the IRL need? Sam Hornish (or more importantly to TG and BB - Danica) to be gravely injured before they act? Do they need to sacrafice a sacred cow before they do anything? Or is it okay if the 2nd and 3rd string guys keep getting torn up.

I bet if it was Scotty Goodyear or (Gasp!) Danica in the car instead of Renna/Brack/Schmidt/Zampedrie/Fox/Perez/Junquera/Calkins/Durant/Guthrie/etc, changes would have been on for the next race.

The technology to prevent, or at least fix many of their problems is there. They CHOOSE not to use it. Or they cut corners. They use mandated wing angles the size of billiard tables and now they are regulating the upper rear wing element. Talk about a bandaid !! Or they mount chunks of CF in hopes it 'attenuates' enought energy to keep a drivers spinal bones from breaking. How about a new car ?

Look at what Legg went though at RA. She was going as fast as they do an an oval - she was hauling ***, and she had a very oval like crash. Eveyone thought she was dead. She was waving the the crowd 45 min later.

There is nothing you can do? :rolleyes: :shakehead

Bullcrap :flame:

In fairness to the IRL, they did implement a change after, I believe Renna's death. They put in something on the undertray, I forget what they called it though, to stop the car from lifting off like that.

[Peter Olivola]

It's really too bad that your emotions are getting in the way of your reasoning and ability to gain knowledge. As a matter of fact, you do see F1, CC and Atlantics to exactly the same thing. What you don't see, except in the case of Jeff Krosnoff, is the cars get trapped together by the wall after making contact at something like 185 MPH.

When road racing incidents like this happen the cars usually separate quickly and they happen at much slower speeds. This physics of this accident were a function of open wheels, speed and the proximity of the wall and catch fence, not the aerodynamic design of the chassis. You can either accept that or continue in your foolish ignorance.


Bullchit !

You don't see F1, CC, or Atlantics rocket skyward when they touch wheels. Do they get some air ? Yep! Do they go over each other? Yep!

When there were safety problems in CC, they had a fix designed into the next years updates (or sooner if needed - better/stronger foot boxes, additonal bulkheads, side impact improvement, higher side/head protection. They INVENTED the mobile medical center. ). When the cars did endo's at Le Mans, they (Mercedes?) pulled the cars. I can't think of a series that doesn't put driver safety first. Well, besides the IRL....

The IRL just shrugges their shoulders and walks away. Mario does an imitation of an F18 from hitting STYROFOAM and the league does..........Nothing ! (Well, in fairness they did go visit the state of denial and say the cars were safe. I guess they are if you don't actually try to drive one.)

There are wayy to many IRL drivers that have been chewed up the last 10 years. What series has the same number of people killed, paralized, or so crippled they can't even push pedals in a race car? There is a pattern here -

Bad seating position + engine in your back = broken back. Answer = deny its a problem.

Cars that get Big Air when they crash. Answer = deny its a problem.

Footboxes made of paper mache. Answer = deny its a problem.

Hell, NASCAR denys it has problems, but it eventually came round and (in their way) is addressing some of the issues. What does the IRL need? Sam Hornish (or more importantly to TG and BB - Danica) to be gravely injured before they act? Do they need to sacrafice a sacred cow before they do anything? Or is it okay if the 2nd and 3rd string guys keep getting torn up.

I bet if it was Scotty Goodyear or (Gasp!) Danica in the car instead of Renna/Brack/Schmidt/Zampedrie/Fox/Perez/Junquera/Calkins/Durant/Guthrie/etc, changes would have been on for the next race.

The technology to prevent, or at least fix many of their problems is there. They CHOOSE not to use it. Or they cut corners. They use mandated wing angles the size of billiard tables and now they are regulating the upper rear wing element. Talk about a bandaid !! Or they mount chunks of CF in hopes it 'attenuates' enought energy to keep a drivers spinal bones from breaking. How about a new car ?

Look at what Legg went though at RA. She was going as fast as they do an an oval - she was hauling ***, and she had a very oval like crash. Eveyone thought she was dead. She was waving the the crowd 45 min later.

There is nothing you can do? :rolleyes: :shakehead

Bullcrap :flame:

[Padre]

also, to use Legge's accident as an example of how safe "our" cars are is weak imho. We are VERY fortunate to still have her with us. It was all about HOW the car went into the fence and what it did after that. Legge's accident looked like Greg Moore's to me, the only difference is the angle of the tub to the wall. :shudder:

Still hoping Perez is OK.

[robot9000]

You guys act like CART never ran an oval. How many ovals did CC run in the same 10 year period the IRL cars been around? Michigan, Fontana, Homestead, Gateway, and Nazerath. The IRL only hit these tracks after CC/CART walked away. You are trying to make this an apples to oranges argument and it isn't.

Did the IRL run more ovals- of course! Did they run faster? No. Did they have more accidents? Maybe. But in that same time period, the Lola's, Renyards, Penske's and Eagles didn't cause the same percentage of serious, career ending injuries on ovals as the IRL has in the same time period.

Who got the same sort if injuries as they get in the IRL cars? How many broken backs? How many chewed up legs? If "That is just the nature of the cars" then there should be some ratio - CC has 40% less because they run 40% less ovals. But that isn't the case. They hit each other and crumple and the drivers walk away. Sure you have tragic accidents like Rodriguze, or even Paul Dana. But how many CART cars went into the fence and chewed up a driver? Sadly, I can think of one - Krosnoff. But even that was due to poor fence placement in reguards to obsticles on a temp street course (IIRC, he hit a lamp post that was not covered by the catch fence. I may be wrong here).

My point is that the IRL seems to do nothing to manage these problems. Its not like this is the first driver in their series to have serious injuries due to disintegration of the lower portion of the tub after hitting the fence. This is at least the 3rd one. How you can just claim this is un avoidable is just obsurd.

[robot9000]

also, to use Legge's accident as an example of how safe "our" cars are is weak imho. We are VERY fortunate to still have her with us. It was all about HOW the car went into the fence and what it did after that. Legge's accident looked like Greg Moore's to me, the only difference is the angle of the tub to the wall. :shudder:

Still hoping Perez is OK.

How is that weak? She backed into a concrete barrier at 100+MPH. The car exploded along the fence. The entire tub was intact. That does not seem to be the case when an IRL car gets in a big crash and it appears the IPS cars are not a lot better.

Moore is a different case I think. If you watch the video (I don't reccomend it) his tub barrow rolls unbelievably fast and hits the concrete barrier squarely and pretty parrallel to the top of the tub. Horrible and I don't think any car is designed to withstand that sort of impact.

Racing is dangerous, no doubt. But people shouldn't be having their legs ripped off for our entertainment. Like the other thread - this is just sport. Just entertainment. Nobody should be dying in these cars with the ammout o of data and the technology we have at hand. The cars in ANY series should put safety first.

Can any series plan for every accident? No! But holey moley, how many cars have to have their foot boxes torn off before someone see's it as a problem? It isn't like we don't have the techlology to fix it!

[Peter Olivola]

Safety and speed cost money. How much are you willing to spend, of your own money, to cover this? This wasn't ICS it was IPS. Unless you're really trying to price the feeder series out of existence you have already demonstrated you have little to no idea what's going on.


Racing is dangerous, no doubt. But people shouldn't be having their legs ripped off for our entertainment. Like the other thread - this is just sport. Just entertainment. Nobody should be dying in these cars with the ammout o of data and the technology we have at hand. The cars in ANY series should put safety first.

Can any series plan for every accident? No! But holey moley, how many cars have to have their foot boxes torn off before someone see's it as a problem? It isn't like we don't have the techlology to fix it!

[Easy]

The IPS car is essentially a World Series by Renault (Nissan) car. The IRL braintrust did not design the specs the way they did the big cars so this instance is not a blame Tony affair. When single seaters touch wheels on high speed ovals, bad things happen.

[chop456]

Safety and speed cost money. How much are you willing to spend, of your own money, to cover this? This wasn't ICS it was IPS. Unless you're really trying to price the feeder series out of existence you have already demonstrated you have little to no idea what's going on.

That's why it's a good thing you're around to know everything for us. :thumbup:

[jonovision_man]

The IPS car is essentially a World Series by Renault (Nissan) car. The IRL braintrust did not design the specs the way they did the big cars so this instance is not a blame Tony affair. When single seaters touch wheels on high speed ovals, bad things happen.

Exactly... the blow-over issue in the ICS is an entirely separate issue. This IPS accident looked like the wheel-to-wheel contact we've seen in every OW series at one time or another.

In the blow-overs, the car took flight on it's own, like a leaf in the wind. There could certainly be a case made that a flaw lead to that (although they did mandate some changes, and we haven't seen one since, so perhaps it's been addressed).

jono

[robot9000]

Safety and speed cost money. How much are you willing to spend, of your own money, to cover this? This wasn't ICS it was IPS. Unless you're really trying to price the feeder series out of existence you have already demonstrated you have little to no idea what's going on.

Geez Pete, thanks for setting me straight. :rolleyes: So safety is secondary to cost?

I know it was IPS, thanks. Heres the deal. In ICS, they have a car, it goes in the air, smashes along the fence, the chassis dissapates the energy, and stuff starts flying. One major problem is the foot box of the tub gets torn off. If it happens once, you fix it. If it happens more than once, well...

So, it is just inconcievable that nobody thought to say, "Hey, we should make sure these things don't happen in the IPS car too". I guess not, since they haven't seen a need to fix it on the IRL cars in the first place. Guess it costs too much money to save drivers legs. Wouldn't want Penske, Chip or Mike to miss any payments on the G5's.

If it was just "One of them oval things" why didn't we see it when CART or CC ran ovals? I don't remember one CC or CART flying in the fence and the drivers legs being at risk. Not since the early to mid 80's.

[Andrew Longman]

Robot:

One very significant difference between CART ovals and IRL ovals has to do with the banking of the typical IRL oval versus the CART ovals. When CART ran Homestead it was nearly flat with four distinct corners. Now it is 22 degrees IIRC. Combined with the heavy downforce these cars make they can run much closer together and side-by-side, making the likelihood of wheel contact and a trip into the fencing much more likely.

When CART ran MIS, Naz, Phoenix, Laudon. Fontana, Gateway, Milwaukee, Chicago, etc. you almost never saw cars side'by'side going into a corner. Passes had to be completed before the turn.

But that doesn't work for NASCAR and NASCAR fans and so the tracks the IRL are forced to race (if they want ovals) mostly have high banking that promotes passing.

Now if you want to jump on TG/IRL for developing and promoting a form of racing that is far more dengerous than it need to be, that's another matter.

[Peter Olivola]

As long as there are different price points there will be compromises. If you're looking for a safe sport, go elsewhere.

Every crash is different. It is neither practical nor effective to apply solutions from one chassis to a different chassis. I'm much more concerned about the line used by the driver. He appeared to take a classic road racing line on an oval track and that's going to create problems every time. That's where the problem needs to be fixed first and that's why IPS exists, to give young drivers a chance to learn how to deal with higher horsepower and ovals. If they were already perfect they'd skip IPS.

There are more frequent car to car incidents in feeder series. That's one of the reasons that both the Cooper Series and Atlantics stopped running on ovals. It's also one of the reasons why the Cooper Series had such a low turnout for Toronto last year. Same problem with the proximity of walls. Contact costs money. The way to save money is avoid contact or avoid racing where contact results in a wall hit.

Again, this wasn't ICS. Your comments about what did or didn't happen in CART are irrelevant.


Geez Pete, thanks for setting me straight. :rolleyes: So safety is secondary to cost?

I know it was IPS, thanks. Heres the deal. In ICS, they have a car, it goes in the air, smashes along the fence, the chassis dissapates the energy, and stuff starts flying. One major problem is the foot box of the tub gets torn off. If it happens once, you fix it. If it happens more than once, well...

So, it is just inconcievable that nobody thought to say, "Hey, we should make sure these things don't happen in the IPS car too". I guess not, since they haven't seen a need to fix it on the IRL cars in the first place. Guess it costs too much money to save drivers legs. Wouldn't want Penske, Chip or Mike to miss any payments on the G5's.

If it was just "One of them oval things" why didn't we see it when CART or CC ran ovals? I don't remember one CC or CART flying in the fence and the drivers legs being at risk. Not since the early to mid 80's.

[Racing Truth]

Andrew mentioned one thing I'll get to shortly, but suffice to say, I'll agree with Peter wholeheartedly.

Robot IS technically right: you wouldn't see that happen in CC. What he neglects to mention is that you never had banking higher than 14 degrees (MIS) in CC. Higher banking=higher speeds=closer compettition=a potential for bad stuff.

On this crash itself, with those small (relatively) cars at those speeds, if they hook wheels, like they did, that's pretty predictable. You put Atlantics (which I wholeheartedly believe are better machines) in the same situation, and you'll get a similar result. Welcome to OW.

You CAN (and perhaps should) blame IPS for creating a pack-racing formula, but that is a separate issue. The "Mario taking flight" issue WAS, IMHO (I think the League would privately admit so too), a car issue. By and large, ICS has rectified it since (Paul Dana was a case of "**** happens).

One more note: While the cars are still ugly and too easy to drive (well, Marco would disagree), anyone who saw more than 60 secs. of green-flag action Sat. night (yes, I saw some of it) can testify that pack racing was NO issue at all. It was a bit boring, but more of a true OW oval race (one team had the setup and dominated).

[robot9000]

While CC raced on flatter tracks, they also raced at higher speeds. Hence the handford billboard and the ratcheding down of turbo boost. I would belive the forces of impact would be similar when it was ford/honda/toyo gunning for each other. Gil's record at Fontana was in a Champ car.

I'm outgunned here so I'll shut up. But I still think theres no excuse for the front of the tub breaking off and exposing the drivers feet on such a consistant basis. The 1st time should have been the last.

[Peter Olivola]

What are you talking about, this was the first time for the IPS chassis.


While CC raced on flatter tracks, they also raced at higher speeds. Hence the handford billboard and the ratcheding down of turbo boost. I would belive the forces of impact would be similar when it was ford/honda/toyo gunning for each other. Gil's record at Fontana was in a Champ car.

I'm outgunned here so I'll shut up. But I still think theres no excuse for the front of the tub breaking off and exposing the drivers feet on such a consistant basis. The 1st time should have been the last.

[Methanolandbrats]

That's why it's a good thing you're around to know everything for us. :thumbup: Exactly, many flock to touch the hem of his garment.

[KLang]

What are you talking about, this was the first time for the IPS chassis.

FWIW according to the gomer Roscoe, posted elsewhere, this was the third time an IPS tub split in two.

[nrc]

You people are saying "you this" and "you that" a bit too much in this thread and if you don't quit it you will find yourself on the pointy end of a thread lock. Whatever that is.

[Peter Olivola]

First time for a footbox separation. The other two were heavy direct wall impacts with the tubs dissipating energy as designed.


FWIW according to the gomer Roscoe, posted elsewhere, this was the third time an IPS tub split in two.

[Accipiter]

Which is the same standard as the CCWS tubs. Don't go there.


Since Champ Car doens't race on high-banked ovals, I'll go there all I want.

[Racing Truth]

Since Champ Car doens't race on high-banked ovals, I'll go there all I want.

That's fine, IFFFFF you then leave car integrity out of it. The philosophy of running on high-banks is certainly questionable. Car integrity, though, is separate.

[Fio1]

His injuries could have happened with any race car in any series. The problem is the cause of the crash, not the affects. Like someone one else said, having pack-racing with open wheel cars is stupid. :shakehead

[Indy]

Pack racing. Pathetically bad racing for the dumbest of fans. Expect more deaths and maimings.

[pchall]

When road racing incidents like this happen the cars usually separate quickly and they happen at much slower speeds. This physics of this accident were a function of open wheels, speed and the proximity of the wall and catch fence, not the aerodynamic design of the chassis. You can either accept that or continue in your foolish ignorance.

This observation makes me think of Christian Fittipaldi's F1 wheel to wheel incident and the ensuing backflip and four point landing. Since it took place on a straight all it made was a brief highlight reel appearance.

Any modern single seater with an undertray will do this trick. The problem is not just the car, but the track it runs on.

[Padre]

How is that weak? She backed into a concrete barrier at 100+MPH. The car exploded along the fence. The entire tub was intact. That does not seem to be the case when an IRL car gets in a big crash and it appears the IPS cars are not a lot better.

Moore is a different case I think. If you watch the video (I don't reccomend it) his tub barrow rolls unbelievably fast and hits the concrete barrier squarely and pretty parrallel to the top of the tub. Horrible and I don't think any car is designed to withstand that sort of impact.

Racing is dangerous, no doubt. But people shouldn't be having their legs ripped off for our entertainment. Like the other thread - this is just sport. Just entertainment. Nobody should be dying in these cars with the ammout o of data and the technology we have at hand. The cars in ANY series should put safety first.

Can any series plan for every accident? No! But holey moley, how many cars have to have their foot boxes torn off before someone see's it as a problem? It isn't like we don't have the techlology to fix it!

It's week because she could have just as easily been seriously injured. Thankfully she was not. All I'm saying is crying "we're better" because we've maimed fewer drivers is not cool. Does the IRL need to work on improving their safety record? ABSOLUTELY! And CC has to remain as diligent as ever because our record to shift in a split second. That's the reality of the sport.

[Easy]

Luciano Burti's Prost F1 shot straight into the air after wheel to wheel with Schu's Ferrari on a GP start. A Formula Nippon driver was killed in the late 90's when he made wheel to wheel contact and went up into the start finish gantry. Open wheel cars + wheel to wheel contact = levitation. Bernie, Tony, Andrew Craig or Kalkhoven, that result will be the same.

I personally find the concept of IPS cars on 1.5 mile high banked ovals extremely scary but this incident doesn't prove "us" right and the irl wrong.

[nrc]

Open wheel cars + wheel to wheel contact = levitation. Bernie, Tony, Andrew Craig or Kalkhoven, that result will be the same. I believe the large wing area the IRL cars use to generate drag and control speeds on high banked ovals contributes the the amount of lift they generate when they find themselves at a positive angle of attack. So I don't believe it's true to claim that who is running things makes no difference. Having someone in charge who thinks that the cars should be running there and that's a safe way to control speeds is part of the problem.

[Racing Truth]

I believe the large wing area the IRL cars use to generate drag and control speeds on high banked ovals contributes the the amount of lift they generate when they find themselves at a positive angle of attack. So I don't believe it's true to claim that who is running things makes no difference. Having someone in charge who thinks that the cars should be running there and that's a safe way to control speeds is part of the problem.

1. Although Easy widened the discussion, the wreck in question is IPS.

2. I won't disagree except this: contact btwn 2 OW cars, such as the original crash in question will, IMHO, end up in a similar result. Are the IRL cars more prone to blow-overs? Yes, but this crash proves nothing of the sort.

3. An even more obvious area of focus ought to be the REAR of the vehicle, with FAR more recent incidents than blowovers.

[Chief]

The IPS and the IRL don't seem to care about how this stuff happens and are slow to change because it's the root of their racing. The more ovals ya run, the more cars will fly and the more engines and feet are gonna get through the grater. I feel bad for the kid Perez but the reality is what REALLY has changed since Davey Hamilton first ripped his legs off at Texas several years ago?

I fear the reality of my question is the IRL has made it MORE LIKELY to occur due to their meddling in trying to produce the closest finishes in open wheel history which is their trademark. Flat bottoms, stronger footboxes, extended noses, body wickers or flashing 50G sidepod impact lights won't change anything IF the sanction body doesn't realise it's at fault for all of this. That, in a nutshell, condemns the entire existance of the IRL. Nero once threw Christians to the lions for the cruel amusement of Nero and those in attendance. Why is this insanity called the IRL any different?

[jonovision_man]

I fear the reality of my question is the IRL has made it MORE LIKELY to occur due to their meddling in trying to produce the closest finishes in open wheel history which is their trademark. Flat bottoms, stronger footboxes, extended noses, body wickers or flashing 50G sidepod impact lights won't change anything IF the sanction body doesn't realise it's at fault for all of this. That, in a nutshell, condemns the entire existance of the IRL. Nero once threw Christians to the lions for the cruel amusement of Nero and those in attendance. Why is this insanity called the IRL any different?

You could make the same argument against any motorsport. Lots of people do, they thing it's all a bloodsport.

You could make ChampCar safer if the top speed was 50km/h. Da Matta would have hit the deer at a harmless speed (or not hit it at all), Greg Moore would still be with us, etc.

The IRL has a certain style of racing, the drivers know it when they climb in the cockpit, they've signed waivers, they've accepted it.

What drivers don't accept is design flaws, or the series not taking action to make the racing as safe as possible... if that's the case, then they deserve criticism. I don't think that's the case.

jono

[Racing Truth]

Again, did the car, AS DESIGNED, fail, or did it do what it was supposed to do? IMHO, the latter occurred, but I would question the cars raison d'etre, running in high banked packs. The car itself, it strikes me, did not fail. If anything, the IPS/IRL philosophy did, sort of.

[JoeBob]

I have SPEED News (or whatever its called this week) on my TiVo, and watched the crashes in slow motion. What was interesting about the first crash that resulted in a chopper ride was that the entire nosecone separated from the car in the initial impact. That really isn't cool, as it can't do any energy absorbtion in secondary impacts if it is bouncing down the track.

I also watched the Perez crash frame by frame. You could clearly see his feet and legs dangling out of the tub as it tumbled across the track. That should not happen. A car vs fencepost collision is not one that should be unanticipated by the designers. We've seen it happen far too many times. (Zampedri, Hamilton, Brack, Briscoe, Renna, etc.) If you're not designing your car to survive that impact, you're doing a disservice to your customers.

[Easy]

I believe the large wing area the IRL cars use to generate drag and control speeds on high banked ovals contributes the the amount of lift they generate when they find themselves at a positive angle of attack. So I don't believe it's true to claim that who is running things makes no difference. Having someone in charge who thinks that the cars should be running there and that's a safe way to control speeds is part of the problem.

Yes, but all open wheel cars go skyward when they touch wheels at high speed.

[nrc]

Yes, but all open wheel cars go skyward when they touch wheels at high speed.

I didn't say that they don't. The question is how soon will they stop gaining altitude. I believe the IRL cars generate more lift when they achieve a positive angle of attack. That means more height and more danger.

[nrc]

1. Although Easy widened the discussion, the wreck in question is IPS.
Yes, I was responding to Easy's remarks, not the IPS accident.

[pchall]

I believe the large wing area the IRL cars use to generate drag and control speeds on high banked ovals contributes the the amount of lift they generate when they find themselves at a positive angle of attack. So I don't believe it's true to claim that who is running things makes no difference. Having someone in charge who thinks that the cars should be running there and that's a safe way to control speeds is part of the problem.

I think you're on to something here. Once the nose is up a bit that B29 wing flap in back takes over and it's all a third grade exercise in lever action.

[opinionated ow]

http://forums.autosport.com/printthread.php?threadid=62970

[robot9000]

Let me ask a very specific question:

Why does the foot area of the tub that surrounds the drivers feet SEEM to have ha higher tendancey to "fail" (Put whatever adjative you want there) than the rest of the tub. My understanding (and I'm sure Peter will correct me, LOL) is that the tub is supposed to encapsulat and protect the driver. The rest of the structure can absorb energy and go flying. But the tub (or whatever its called) should stay in tact. We see the front of the tub came apart in the IPS car. It has come off in an ICS car. But we never see the back fail. Why?

Maybe the answer is "its supposed to" or "better to take a chance on some injured legs than certain death" I dunno. But it seems odd.

There. I've taken the league, Tony, KK, and everything else out of the discussion.

[Chief]

I would suspect that the standards to which the tub (footbox included) are spec'd, manufactured and tested are designed to meet front impacts goals (head-on and angular). This was the specific reason the nose was extended OUT from the first front bulkhead.....so it would absorb engergy and dissipate the crash G's. Think "crumple" zone but made from carbon fiber.

On the other hand.....where the problem appears to stem from is missle-like "stabbing" of the nose (and tub) into a fence that grabs the car and violently spins it like a pivot into other parts of the fence, often including fence posts. That's what shears off the noses and often separates the tub from the stressed engine member. With that violent of an impact fencing just tears apart carbon fiber so you either don't hit it or deal with the circumstances. And remember, carbon fiber was a godsend for car construction because it was tough and didn't collapse like aluminum honeycomb footboxes of years earlier. Tossing them at 200 mph into fences w/ regularity is really something we've only seen since 1996.

They'd have to learn to simulate this experience BEFORE they can do anything else to repair the problem. But, when you factor in $$ cost it's unlikely anyone would do anything about it because of the fact that the OW economy couldn't stand a hit such as this. So, you arrive back at point one again and eventually someone will hold a sanction body negligent for their inability to change the cars for the betterment and safety of the sport. I hate to say it, but, some series are getting dang close to this prophacy as evidence is gathering and gathering.

[cameraman]

They'd have to learn simulate this experience BEFORE they can do anything else to repair the problem. That would be nearly impossible as the banking, walls and fences at each track is different plus the angle and speed the car hits it is different in every accident.

I think it is safe to say that any series' current car would fair very poorly going nose first into a grater at ~200 mph.

[Easy]

Maybe the answer is "its supposed to" or "better to take a chance on some injured legs than certain death" I dunno. But it seems odd.


Pretty much correct. Otherwise it would just rip off at the bulkhead in front of the aperture. Thats what happened to the vintage racer in the ex-Schu Ferrari at Laguna Seca, that was down to bad carbon fiber repair or maintenance. Another problem is that carbon fiber will delaminate in time, weakening the tub. Didn't an Intersport Lola P2 tub fall into two pieces on chassis stands a couple years ago?

[FCYTravis]

Another problem is that carbon fiber will delaminate in time, weakening the tub. Didn't an Intersport Lola P2 tub fall into two pieces on chassis stands a couple years ago?
Yep. One of the EX257s. Chalk that one up to having been crashed and repaired too much, too. That was the car that was absolutely demolished several times... there's a three-foot chunk of its bodywork hanging on my garage wall from when Duncan Dayton crested the hill at Sears Point Turn 5 in practice and centerpunched a Porsche 911 which had spun and stalled in the middle of the track.

[robot9000]

Anyone got a link to Pablo? Its been a few weeks and no news that I saw.

[cameraman]

IPS isn't even mentioned on the CGR web site muchless any information on their injured driver.:shakehead