LB Discussion Thread

[Insomniac]

Congratulations to Bourdais. Have to say I was quite impressed with the way Servia's/FCR's strategy worked out. He stayed out a few extra laps and made a pretty big jump into second place. Only way he could've gotten past Bourdais was a timely yellow flag (and the assumption he didn't short fill).

The announcing team was better, but at the end of the broadcast it seemed like they won't be working together anymore.

[devilmaster]

The announcing team was better, but at the end of the broadcast it seemed like they won't be working together anymore.

The joy of having a multi-network race deal.... :irked:

[Ed_Severson]

They won't be ... Weber and Dallenbach are headed back to the NBC cryo unit for the time being.

Pretty good race ... very nice job by Servia, gotta give Bourdais big credit for basically walking away from the rest of the field, and good clean racing at the end between Power, Tag, and Wilson.

Nice to see the fueling went much better as well. Still a bit of a venting issue to work out, but it's already lots better than it was a week ago.

Hopefully Figge is alright ... only downside so far today.

[Insomniac]

What are people's thoughts on how close the cars could run? I know for a while I was personally thinking it didn't seem like the new car made it any easier to pass, even with P2P. By the end of the race I wasn't thinking about it.

[Insomniac]

Hopefully Figge is alright ... only downside so far today.

I agree, I hope he is okay as well. I was very surprised when I saw the safety worker straddle the front of the car.

What was up with Dominguez? On the radio they were saying stay in the car and they'll look at it when he gets back and then he's climbing out. Then he also took off from the race.

[nrc]

What was up with Dominguez? On the radio they were saying stay in the car and they'll look at it when he gets back and then he's climbing out. Then he also took off from the race.

I think the car was obviously toast so he got out.

One thing that concerned me about this race was that the dreaded fuel economy run reared it's ugly head and I wonder if the shorter, timed races are going to make that a regular occurance.

[Insomniac]

I think the car was obviously toast so he got out.

One thing that concerned me about this race was that the dreaded fuel economy run reared it's ugly head and I wonder if the shorter, timed races are going to make that a regular occurance.

I think there will always be the fuel economy talk when you can get that extra lap over the next guy. The race itself was 78 laps and the pit window was 30+ laps, so it was 2 stops no matter what. Even if it was Green all the way (85-86 laps) it would be 2 stops.

Mandatory stops didn't help either since they convserved to reduce refueling time.

IMO, the only solution is to move to pressurized refueling rigs to ensure the fuel is filled faster than the tires are changed. Then no one would save fuel.

[Kiwifan]

Can anyone fill me in on how Hallidays race went? No TV and no RD. :( :( :(

Rusty.

PS, I see he didn't finish, "mechanical."

[coolhand]

Did anyone like how they did the start? It was like they said screw it to the the traditional one lets get the cars running for more then on lap

[Insomniac]

Did anyone like how they did the start? It was like they said screw it to the the traditional one lets get the cars running for more then on lap

On TV they said it was supposed to be staggered again. Obviously not even close. I will never understand why they can't get line up right 2 or 3 turns before. They should be going slow enough that they can go 2 wide through a turn and then go on green.

[Gangrel]

I think there will always be the fuel econcomy talk when you can get that extra lap over the next guy. The race itself was 78 laps and the pit window was 30+ laps, so it was 2 stops no matter what. Even if it was Green all the way (85-86 laps) it would be 2 stops.

Mandatory stops didn't help either since they convserved to reduce refueling time.

IMO, the only solution is to move to pressurized refueling rigs to ensure the fuel is filled faster than the tires are changed. Then no one would save fuel.

Nahh...the solution is to learn to appreciate the nuances of strategy in the race. Personally, I cringe every time people complain about fuel economy runs. It is all part of the game, and trying to eliminate it is only dumbing down the rules. Sorry, but strategy is all part of it for me.

[Insomniac]

Can anyone fill me in on how Hallidays race went? No TV and no RD. :( :( :(

Rusty.

PS, I see he didn't finish, "mechanical."

No word on the boradcast, he was just listed as out all of a sudden.

[Insomniac]

Nahh...the solution is to learn to appreciate the nuances of strategy in the race. Personally, I cringe every time people complain about fuel economy runs. It is all part of the game, and trying to eliminate it is only dumbing down the rules. Sorry, but strategy is all part of it for me.

Is it really strategy when everyone is doing it? That's like F1 and the mandatory tire rules. Everyone runs the tires in the same order. Before, fuel conservation was a dial, and it made a big difference at a big cost. I still remember the race in Portland when GdF was running full rich and 2nd place was full lean. Gil was gaining 1s a lap and was able to come in get a quick splash and get back out in front. When Moreno was King of fuel conservation he added the throttle discipline to it and got amazing fuel mileage. Now, "saving fuel" means everyone run a little slower and don't pass. It's not much of a startegy.

[Racing Truth]

Did anyone like how they did the start? It was like they said screw it to the the traditional one lets get the cars running for more then on lap

Yep. Hate to say it but the '02 IRL 500 start (the back end of that field just saw the green:gomer: ) came to my mind. Soon as it (today) happened, I said, "awful start."

[Racing Truth]

What are people's thoughts on how close the cars could run? I know for a while I was personally thinking it didn't seem like the new car made it any easier to pass, even with P2P. By the end of the race I wasn't thinking about it.

I dunno, not a lot, passing wise, seemed to happen until the last 20 mins, other than restarts into T1. Last 20 mins., though...:cool:

[Wabbit]

Was it just Seattle, or was there sound problems everywhere? I was listing to the commentators, and had to try and fill in the audio gaps at times. It seemed to happen through the whole race.

[robot9000]

What happened to Figgy? No race here in the D :rolleyes:

[FCYTravis]

Crashed quite hard in Turn 9, helped out by the safety team and taken off on a stretcher.

[extramundane]

Figge on Figge (http://champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=11480)


Alex Figge #29 Imperial Bank Cosworth/DP01/Bridgestone - "I made a rookie mistake and got caught out by the turbo on the opening laps which set me behind throughout the race. I was working on Dan Clarke, I felt like I had a good rhythm going, we were turning consistently good lap times and I was coming into turn nine I clipped the apex of the curb and got unsettled, I missed the tires and went into the wall. I am fine, they gave me a few x-rays and everything is clear. I am definitely going to be sore for a few days, it was a big hit."

[Insomniac]

Was it just Seattle, or was there sound problems everywhere? I was listing to the commentators, and had to try and fill in the audio gaps at times. It seemed to happen through the whole race.

It cut out at random points for less than a second for me. I didn't miss entire words, only part of them. I have DirecTV.

[Kiwifan]

No word on the boradcast, he was just listed as out all of a sudden.

Thanks Inso! Appreciate that. :thumbup:

Rusty.

[Insomniac]

Figge on Figge (http://champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=11480)

Good to hear. Was a bit worried after one injury this weekend.

[Insomniac]

Thanks Inso! Appreciate that. :thumbup:

Rusty.

Looking at the race report, he did complete 72 laps (out of 78) so it was near the end after the Figge crash, and they went to commercial during that time. I'd guess he pulled into the pits during the commercial and that yellow.


« Lap 71 - YELLOW FLAG #29 FIGGE makes contact with the tires in Turn 9.

„« Lap 72 - #42 HALLIDAY pulls onto pit road.

„« Lap 73 - #42 HALLIDAY is listed out of the race due to mechanical.

„« Lap 76 - GREEN FLAG

[Boatdesigner]

I thought the start was pretty bad. I was wondering why they couldn't all have to be on the pitlane speed limiter on the starting straight until the flag flew. Then they would all be going the same speed and would be able to (hopefully) stay lined up well. Could also be good practice for when the standing starts come along, kind of a rolling standing start!

Also, did anyone else notice the flags under the drivers names in the crawl at the top of the screen? Either Britain has replaced the Union Jack with a white field with a red cross, or someone at NBC doesn't know his flags very well. I thought the flag they showed was from a Scandinavian country (Finland?).

Lastly, didn't see as much passing as I would have liked. It seemed like they were all saving fuel. Surprised no one turned the wick up and took a chance that they would get some well timed yellows. Maybe forced everyone else to race or be left behind.

[The Doctor]

Also, did anyone else notice the flags under the drivers names in the crawl at the top of the screen? Either Britain has replaced the Union Jack with a white field with a red cross, or someone at NBC doesn't know his flags very well. I thought the flag they showed was from a Scandinavian country (Finland?).



That would be the Cross of St. George, the English flag.

http://www.midlandsenglandfans.com/england-flag-05.gif

[STD]

Was it just Seattle, or was there sound problems everywhere? I was listing to the commentators, and had to try and fill in the audio gaps at times. It seemed to happen through the whole race.

Both audio and video breakup here.
Random, but through out the broadcast.

[diamond dave]

What are people's thoughts on how close the cars could run? I know for a while I was personally thinking it didn't seem like the new car made it any easier to pass, even with P2P. By the end of the race I wasn't thinking about it.

(imo)It seemed like they could run closer together but no one wanted to try to pass or P2P too early in the race:saywhat: Radio chatter of "conserve fuel" was heard often:irked:

[Spicoli]

The start sucked. You just knew Bore-Days was going to run from the pack with that start. (HampsTurd must have had a big hissy fit before the race). The broadcast was way improved over last race. Much better. The split lap/time dealy was nice. Showed more action like runs for 2/3/4 with Tags, Swervia, Power, etc. The crowd looked great. One of the best LBGPs in a LONG time.:thumbup:

[Hesketh]

Start was lousy.
Audio broke up through the entire race.
The broadcast team was worse than last week, if that's possible.
Too bad Servia didn't pressure Bourdais on the last restart so we coulda' had a real race.

[Boatdesigner]

That would be the Cross of St. George, the English flag.

http://www.midlandsenglandfans.com/england-flag-05.gif

I thought I remembered that flag from one of the drivers helmets as well. I didn't realize the networks were now recognizing England as being separate from Great Britain. I wonder if this was a choice of the drivers, as the blue flag with the 'X' under Dalziel's name was for Scotland. And everyone accuses Americans of being nationalistic. I hope I don't have to learn all the state flags for the American drivers (all 2 of them)!:)

[Ed_Severson]

Clarke uses the English flag.

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Photos/2007/By400/20070406P_0083.jpg

Wilson and Legge use the British flag.

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Photos/2007/By400/20070414P_0056.jpg

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Photos/2007/By400/20070414P_0060.jpg

And Dalziel uses the Scottish flag.

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/Photos/2007/By400/20070415P_0002.jpg

[Insomniac]

The broadcast team was worse than last week, if that's possible.

I thought the opposite. They added the clock from the beginning. The broadcast team was pronouncing names better and even caught errors in the graphics (which to me, meant they were learning who is in which car). They interacted much better as well. The telemetry graphic worked better, but still wasn't right. It seemed to go "up" fine, but lost track when they went down (perhaps it was set up to keep the high numbers up longer as opposed to only refresh every X amount of time).

It's a shame there will be a new group of people next week.

[Hesketh]

I thought the opposite. They added the clock from the beginning. The broadcast team was pronouncing names better and even caught errors in the graphics (which to me, meant they were learning who is in which car). They interacted much better as well. The telemetry graphic worked better, but still wasn't right. It seemed to go "up" fine, but lost track when they went down (perhaps it was set up to keep the high numbers up longer as opposed to only refresh every X amount of time).

It's a shame there will be a new group of people next week.

I still caught graphics errors.

Oh, they interacted better; they were so busy yukking it up with cornball "jokes," they completely missed action on the track --- never even got back to commenting on it later.

I also noticed Jon (thankfully) caught and corrected mistakes made by the others. It just seemed like they were so focused on clowning around, they forgot there was actually a race going on.

Who's going to be doing it next week? and why?

[Ed_Severson]

Definitely still some issues with the broadcast. Right off the bat, they go in-car with Rahal and Weber says "we're on-board with Servia!" At one point they show Graham going through T1 in 7th gear. I don't think any of them pronounced "Gommendy" the same way twice.

It could have been a lot worse, but there were a bunch of silly mistakes. Beekhuis, as to be expected, was easily the best of the group. I can't say that I'm at all disappointed to know that he will continue to be around while Weber and Dallenbach twiddle their thumbs waiting for NASCAR to come back to NBC.

[Andrew Longman]

It cut out at random points for less than a second for me. I didn't miss entire words, only part of them. I have DirecTV.


Same here, but I attributed it to the Nor'Easter dumping 5 inches of rain on me yesterday.

As for the cars it looked as if the venting problem was solved, though some stops still seemed a bit long.

Also, were there any gearbox problems this weekend. I didn't hear about it.

I'm not worried about Figge's "injury". He hit a ton, the crew was being safe, and in the end he was not actually injured. Don't know what to make of PTs injury.

What do we make of SB comment that the car is hard to work on?

[Insomniac]

Who's going to be doing it next week? and why?

The next race broadcast is on ESPN. It sounded like Jon would be back, but Weber and Wallenbach won't be.

[Insomniac]

Definitely still some issues with the broadcast. Right off the bat, they go in-car with Rahal and Weber says "we're on-board with Servia!" At one point they show Graham going through T1 in 7th gear. I don't think any of them pronounced "Gommendy" the same way twice.

It could have been a lot worse, but there were a bunch of silly mistakes. Beekhuis, as to be expected, was easily the best of the group. I can't say that I'm at all disappointed to know that he will continue to be around while Weber and Dallenbach twiddle their thumbs waiting for NASCAR to come back to NBC.

That's actually what I was referring too. He read the graphic, but then pretty quickly noted that it looked like Rahal's car.

Also, Jon did kind of goof up on Servia's strategy. It wasn't until after the commercial break he explained that he actually was on strategy (technically he had the best startegy since he had 1 stop left like the rest of the leaders and could make his the latest).

[Insomniac]

Same here, but I attributed it to the Nor'Easter dumping 5 inches of rain on me yesterday.

As for the cars it looked as if the venting problem was solved, though some stops still seemed a bit long.

Also, were there any gearbox problems this weekend. I didn't hear about it.

I'm not worried about Figge's "injury". He hit a ton, the crew was being safe, and in the end he was not actually injured. Don't know what to make of PTs injury.

What do we make of SB comment that the car is hard to work on?

It was in the 60s here, after snowing Friday/Friday night...

Reading some articles, Rahal and Jani say they had fueling problems still. I didn't hear about any gear box issues, and I think the only one was Wilson last week, and him getting hit in the back is kind of dubious.

SB comment: :cry:

[Wheel-Nut]

Is it possible to get the field bunched up at LB for the start? Coming out of the hairpin single file and expecting them to get side x side or even staggered is being very optimistic.

Possible solution - slow down the mph on the pace laps?

[FTG]

I think Spickly is right. Unless they're willing to punish SB for not letting everyone else line up, not much is going to change. Personally, I think they preferred getting everyone through Turn 1. If we can get some more cars, hopefully they'll start enforcing better starts.

[tantra]

Re: starts ... If CC determines an acceleration point on the course for getting on the power, then those in the rear will always be left in the dust as the accordian effect will always rule.

If CC attempts to hold the front row up to get a pretty start (as it has been done in some series), there is a good chance that those in the rear ranks will 'bump draft' someone baxk at about row three or four. About the only place I can envision a pretty start is at RA, and I haven't actually seen any there either.

With a spec series, it is quite possible that those who get away cleanly, drive smoothly (and keep it off the walls) will never be passed. The P2P is a major attempt to avoid this happening and lessing the chance of putting on a parade at each event.

Seb proved that driving well (as quickly as others, but more smoothly) will allow a driver to run away from the others using spec cars.

[devilmaster]

It used to be that the pace car held up the field right until pit in.

Then both series got into the habit of letting the pace car leave the field a couple corners from the main straight... Then the back straight... Now i've seen IRL races where the pace car leaves the track one whole lap before they go back green. This leaves too much in the way of brakechecks and little games between drivers. :irked:

I'm with Spicoli on this. I don't believe Seabass waited at all after the hairpin.

Check this vid out. This is from LB 2002. The start is about 15 seconds in. If you look, the red cone hanging from the fence on the right is the 'acceleration line'. At least the front row held off until they got really close to that line. And they got 4 rows near perfect for the start. Thats way more acceptable than the crap from yesterday. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bnz0zxaQvhQ

Oh, and can they add a rule to the CC handbook please.... 4.12 No broadcaster of any format or any employee therein shall interview, discuss, photograph, videotape or in any way shape or form talk to Craig Hampson during any Champcar race weekend.

[Insomniac]

It used to be that the pace car held up the field right until pit in.

Then both series got into the habit of letting the pace car leave the field a couple corners from the main straight... Then the back straight... Now i've seen IRL races where the pace car leaves the track one whole lap before they go back green. This leaves too much in the way of brakechecks and little games between drivers. :irked:

I'm with Spicoli on this. I don't believe Seabass waited at all after the hairpin.

Check this vid out. This is from LB 2002. The start is about 15 seconds in. If you look, the red cone hanging from the fence on the right is the 'acceleration line'. At least the front row held off until they got really close to that line. And they got 4 rows near perfect for the start. Thats way more acceptable than the crap from yesterday. http://youtube.com/watch?v=Bnz0zxaQvhQ

Oh, and can they add a rule to the CC handbook please.... 4.12 No broadcaster of any format or any employee therein shall interview, discuss, photograph, videotape or in any way shape or form talk to Craig Hampson during any Champcar race weekend.

I don't think any driver would hold off accelerating out of the hairpin. It's all about keeping the spot or gaining some and you will get on it as soon as possible.

It would be nice if someone could explain why 1. They can't line up 2 x 2 a couple turns from the S/F straight and 2. Why they can't make the acceleration point the S/F line, which is when the Green flag should be dropped and all cars should be free to accelerate. And the pace car should not pull off until it reaches pit in and the cars should be required to follow it beginning X turns before S/F.

I will never understand why this is so complex.

[koolracer]

I totally agree about the start.

What a mess. I am a race marshall at Mosport, and at the Toronto Grand Prix, and I have seen people who have far less experience do a much better job of lining up for the start. Even the local go-kart club with 7 year olds does a better job than what we have been seeing the past few years.

That being said, all this goes away when we get standing starts........

Another point, about the fuel consuption. I think the Oriol and FCR did an excellent job proving that you can make an extra stop, and run rich and compete with those who are conserving. A point that was not made very well during the broadcast.

[Insomniac]

Another point, about the fuel consuption. I think the Oriol and FCR did an excellent job proving that you can make an extra stop, and run rich and compete with those who are conserving. A point that was not made very well during the broadcast.

Problem is, he only put the hammer down when the cars in fron of him started to pit. He didn't run hard the entire time, only when he had open track. He wasn't doing much passing until then.

[JoeBob]

Someone posted on another forum that da Matta was the "guest starter" and threw the green flag before the official starter gave any direction to. Once the green was out, it was a done deal.

Can anyone confirm that?

[devilmaster]

Someone posted on another forum that da Matta was the "guest starter" and threw the green flag before the official starter gave any direction to. Once the green was out, it was a done deal.

Can anyone confirm that?

I noticed a guest starter, cause the flag waving was not a pro and whomever did it didn't have CC gear on. As for it being CDM, dunno.

[oddlycalm]

I don't think any of them pronounced "Gommendy" the same way twice. My personal favorite was Weber's version which was Gore-Munday. :gomer: I can't imagine the ESPN crew will be an improvement...:rolleyes:

I think the jury is still out regarding whether the new aero package will allow more passing or just closer following. Once Tagliani passed Power using push to pass everyone seemed to go into fuel economy mode and Bourdais disapeared. Up till then Power was staying close to Bourdais.

oc

[Wheel-Nut]

I noticed a guest starter, cause the flag waving was not a pro and whomever did it didn't have CC gear on. As for it being CDM, dunno.

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/content/photos/2007/By800/20070415P_0054.jpg

[Gangrel]

Is it really strategy when everyone is doing it? That's like F1 and the mandatory tire rules. Everyone runs the tires in the same order. Before, fuel conservation was a dial, and it made a big difference at a big cost. I still remember the race in Portland when GdF was running full rich and 2nd place was full lean. Gil was gaining 1s a lap and was able to come in get a quick splash and get back out in front. When Moreno was King of fuel conservation he added the throttle discipline to it and got amazing fuel mileage. Now, "saving fuel" means everyone run a little slower and don't pass. It's not much of a startegy.

Agreed. Those were the days.

Those were also the days when all the online fans started b*tching about fuel conservation, and got CART to pull the dial out of the cars. Guess CART fans couldn't handle or comprehend strategy, eh?

[Insomniac]

Agreed. Those were the days.

Those were also the days when all the online fans started b*tching about fuel conservation, and got CART to pull the dial out of the cars. Guess CART fans couldn't handle or comprehend strategy, eh?

I thought the dial went when they went to Cosworths for the whole field.?At least when they had multiple engines, their fuel usage varied, so there were a lot of factors, but with one engine, they are all on the same playing field. Would having a dial make teams choose different strategies? If so, then maybe they should bring it back. In the end, that seems like the key (more variables). Since it's so hard to pass, all fuel conservation mode does now is slow down the guy behind you, but not enough that they can pass you. They know it, so they convserve fuel as well.

One of the best races last year was Denver, and I'm almost certain it was because of the tires. The teams didn't know the reds would go off that fast before the race. If they did, then they all would've used them at the same time, and only once. As a result, different guys had reds at different times and the grid wasn't fast to slow in the order they qualified.

Nowadays, you're usually as fast in the race as you are in qualifying. Back then, that wasn't necessarily the case. Computers ruined racing.

[Insomniac]

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/content/photos/2007/By800/20070415P_0054.jpg

So it's all da Matta's fault!

[Gangrel]

I thought the dial went when they went to Cosworths for the whole field.?At least when they had multiple engines, their fuel usage varied, so there were a lot of factors, but with one engine, they are all on the same playing field. Would having a dial make teams choose different strategies? If so, then maybe they should bring it back. In the end, that seems like the key (more variables). Since it's so hard to pass, all fuel conservation mode does now is slow down the guy behind you, but not enough that they can pass you. They know it, so they convserve fuel as well.

One of the best races last year was Denver, and I'm almost certain it was because of the tires. The teams didn't know the reds would go off that fast before the race. If they did, then they all would've used them at the same time, and only once. As a result, different guys had reds at different times and the grid wasn't fast to slow in the order they qualified.

Nowadays, you're usually as fast in the race as you are in qualifying. Back then, that wasn't necessarily the case. Computers ruined racing.

They removed the dial when they went to Cossies, but they didn't eliminate the fuel settings. The rule was that the richness the engines were running was to be set before the race, and could not be altered once the cars hit the track.

If you recall, there were actually two dials. One controlled the fuel mixture, the other controlled the turbo boost. Both were used to balance speed and fuel economy, and both were eliminated at the same time.

You are probably right about this being more relevant when there were multiple engines, but PTP seems to work on a similar concept, and I would say that has been a success so far, even with a single engine manufacturer. However, you and I are probably the only two in this forum that look back fondly on the days when fuel mixture could be altered by a dial on the steering wheel. I seem to recall most folks had nothing but choice four-letter words to say about that device.

For the record, Greg Moore's first win at Milwaukee in 1997 was one of the most memorable races in my history as a race fan. He won that race as an economy run, saving himself a pitstop as Mikey went in under yellow. The following year, they altered the race length from 200 to 225 to avoid such an occurrence in the future.

[Ed_Severson]

you and I are probably the only two in this forum that look back fondly on the days when fuel mixture could be altered by a dial on the steering wheel.

Never has a falserer statement been typed. There are at least three of us!

I've always believed that fuel economy, like any other part of the sport, was an integral part of strategy, and if you could straggle around in 15th most of the day whilst saving fuel and making one less stop than everyone else, that option should be available to you. Racing is about getting to the end first, period. If the only thing that mattered was who could run the fastest laps, we'd just hold one big qualifying session and award points based on the best lap time for each driver.

The key, of course, is to be able to run a reasonable pace and still save fuel -- this is something which Bourdais is exceptional at, as we saw yesterday. Frankly, taking away the option to alter the fuel mixture makes this more of an advantage for him, not less of an advantage.

Oh, and the tires are too good too. Bridgestone makes a great product, and I can certainly understand why they don't want drivers complaining about the tires going off in post-race interviews, but if the tires were only at their peak for, say, 30-35 miles instead of 60-65, we would have a lot more interesting races and would add tire maintenance back into the necessary skill set for drivers.

[Gangrel]

Oh, and the tires are too good too. Bridgestone makes a great product, and I can certainly understand why they don't want drivers complaining about the tires going off in post-race interviews, but if the tires were only at their peak for, say, 30-35 miles instead of 60-65, we would have a lot more interesting races and would add tire maintenance back into the necessary skill set for drivers.


Interesting point...perhaps the only thing wrong with the tire compound Bridgestone brought to LV was that it was a mistake. Had they brought a compound that responded that way deliberately, and announced the endurance stats to all drivers before the race, it might have made for a much more interesting race!

[Insomniac]

They removed the dial when they went to Cossies, but they didn't eliminate the fuel settings. The rule was that the richness the engines were running was to be set before the race, and could not be altered once the cars hit the track.

If you recall, there were actually two dials. One controlled the fuel mixture, the other controlled the turbo boost. Both were used to balance speed and fuel economy, and both were eliminated at the same time.

You are probably right about this being more relevant when there were multiple engines, but PTP seems to work on a similar concept, and I would say that has been a success so far, even with a single engine manufacturer. However, you and I are probably the only two in this forum that look back fondly on the days when fuel mixture could be altered by a dial on the steering wheel. I seem to recall most folks had nothing but choice four-letter words to say about that device.

For the record, Greg Moore's first win at Milwaukee in 1997 was one of the most memorable races in my history as a race fan. He won that race as an economy run, saving himself a pitstop as Mikey went in under yellow. The following year, they altered the race length from 200 to 225 to avoid such an occurrence in the future.

In fairness, towards the end, fuel conservation went from the alternative strategy to the dominant strategy. When the front runners started to do it, it hurt the racing. That's why so many were upset. You'd have guys who barely get on the podium winning races based purely on a fuel mixture dial, and as it happened more, people didn't like it.

[Insomniac]

Oh, and the tires are too good too. Bridgestone makes a great product, and I can certainly understand why they don't want drivers complaining about the tires going off in post-race interviews, but if the tires were only at their peak for, say, 30-35 miles instead of 60-65, we would have a lot more interesting races and would add tire maintenance back into the necessary skill set for drivers.

I've always felt the reds needed to be >1s a lap faster and wear out faster. I'd also think that Bridgestone and CC/Drivers can understand what is expected from the tires, and then not rip them.

[Boatdesigner]

How about banning the fuel economy number from the steering wheel? If they couldn't see that they were getting 1.8 mpg, then they would have to come up with a strategy based on how many laps they could do safely without running out. I guess you would also have to ban mileage reports from the pits as well. Didn't someone say earlier that computers have ruined the racing? Maybe we should eliminate car to pit telemetry. You can download it during a pit stop or after the race, but during a race, the driver is on his own. If you couldn't accurately measure the mileage, you may have no choice but to drive as fast as possible.

Why does this seem to be more of a problem in Champ Car than in F1? Maybe because they don't have full course yellows. I have always thought the pits should be closed during a yellow, green flag stops only.

[nrc]

In fairness, towards the end, fuel conservation went from the alternative strategy to the dominant strategy. When the front runners started to do it, it hurt the racing. That's why so many were upset. You'd have guys who barely get on the podium winning races based purely on a fuel mixture dial, and as it happened more, people didn't like it.

Right. I never had a problem with fuel strategy. I had a problem with fuel strategy that was becoming entirely a contest between engine manufacturers and their fuel mapping software. Essentially nobody was following any other strategy. Qualify, get through turn one, dial it back and hold station hoping to beat the driver ahead out of the pits. Repeat ad nauseam.

[JohnHKart]

Hmm, yeah the broadcast team wasn't that great. Weber had such insightful comments as describing a turn one pass by Servia (I think, I don't remember the other driver) as follows, "there's Servia on the right passing Halliday" jeez that's real exciting and insightful , thanks for letting us know. I still don't know half of who's in what car or anything about most of the drivers, or why people like Tagliani changed teams again. I need one of those Racer pre season guides. Since drivers were signed up just before or at Vegas I know that if I bought a program it would have tons empty spaces also and not enough info. I miss the days of getting magazines like On Track, when I really knew my stuff, I guess I haven't been paying attention in the off season like I used to. I didn't just start watching these races either.

JH

[Insomniac]

How about banning the fuel economy number from the steering wheel? If they couldn't see that they were getting 1.8 mpg, then they would have to come up with a strategy based on how many laps they could do safely without running out. I guess you would also have to ban mileage reports from the pits as well. Didn't someone say earlier that computers have ruined the racing? Maybe we should eliminate car to pit telemetry. You can download it during a pit stop or after the race, but during a race, the driver is on his own. If you couldn't accurately measure the mileage, you may have no choice but to drive as fast as possible.

Why does this seem to be more of a problem in Champ Car than in F1? Maybe because they don't have full course yellows. I have always thought the pits should be closed during a yellow, green flag stops only.

I said computers ruined racing because things are so perfect. The chassis, springs, tires, etc. The computer took what was a manual task and simplified it. Now they can find optimum everything, where in the past, you had to make choices. Give up something here, to gain there. Cars would be fast on one part of the track and stink in others. Now they are perfect the whole way around, and if they're off a little, it's not enough for the guy behind you to take advantage.

F1 has the same problems. They may not be radioed over and over to save fuel, and no one in the pit stands are really interviewed, but the guys up front play follow the leader too. And with one tire, that doesn't help. Fortunately in F1 there are still different chassis and engines, but race in, race out, the usual guys are in the usual spots.

[pchall]

Does anyone else think that the PacWest fuel economy gamble at Belle Isle was a great race? For me the anticipation of a possible win for McCaw and the tension were incredible. But that was a bit different than the fuel mixture games later on...

[Insomniac]

Hmm, yeah the broadcast team wasn't that great. Weber had such insightful comments as describing a turn one pass by Servia (I think, I don't remember the other driver) as follows, "there's Servia on the right passing Halliday" jeez that's real exciting and insightful , thanks for letting us know. I still don't know half of who's in what car or anything about most of the drivers, or why people like Tagliani changed teams again. I need one of those Racer pre season guides. I know that if I bought a program it would probably have empty spaces also and not enough info. I miss the days of getting magazines like On Track, when I really knew my stuff, I guess I haven't been paying attention in the off season like I used to. I didn't just start watching these races either.

JH

That's not a product of the booth guys, it's more a product of how little media exposure CC gets. Maybe it would've been nice to have a season preview show, but when about half the field is confirmed a couple weeks before the race, it's hard to make one. CC may've been better served using that first half hour (maybe buy a 2nd one) to discuss the changes in the off season and introduce the drivers instead of the crap they showed.

[Insomniac]

Does anyone else think that the PacWest fuel economy gamble at Belle Isle was a great race? For me the anticipation of a possible win for McCaw and the tension were incredible. But that was a bit different than the fuel mixture games later on...

I agree, and maybe if someone did the "opposite" now, it would be just as exciting. Think about someone starting mid pack with the Bridgestone reds and half a tank of fuel. They'd be free to destroy those tires and have a light load.

[Boatdesigner]

I said computers ruined racing because things are so perfect. The chassis, springs, tires, etc. The computer took what was a manual task and simplified it. Now they can find optimum everything, where in the past, you had to make choices. Give up something here, to gain there. Cars would be fast on one part of the track and stink in others. Now they are perfect the whole way around, and if they're off a little, it's not enough for the guy behind you to take advantage.

F1 has the same problems. They may not be radioed over and over to save fuel, and no one in the pit stands are really interviewed, but the guys up front play follow the leader too. And with one tire, that doesn't help. Fortunately in F1 there are still different chassis and engines, but race in, race out, the usual guys are in the usual spots.

I think we agree Insomniac. I was trying to say that maybe the drivers and the teams have too much information available, due to all the computers. Maybe with less information, there would be more chance of differing strategies.

[Ray Scar]

Never has a falserer statement been typed. There are at least three of us!


4!


I've always believed that fuel economy, like any other part of the sport, was an integral part of strategy, and if you could straggle around in 15th most of the day whilst saving fuel and making one less stop than everyone else, that option should be available to you. Racing is about getting to the end first, period. If the only thing that mattered was who could run the fastest laps, we'd just hold one big qualifying session and award points based on the best lap time for each driver.

The key, of course, is to be able to run a reasonable pace and still save fuel -- this is something which Bourdais is exceptional at, as we saw yesterday. Frankly, taking away the option to alter the fuel mixture makes this more of an advantage for him, not less of an advantage.


Different strategies are one of the ways teams can differentiate themselves and another way for drivers to show how good they are. After all, it's one thing to plan, quite another to execute.

One thing that is usually lost in discussions (both old and new) of fuel strategy is the huge penalty one pays for pitting in these days of pit lane speed limits. Those of us old enough (and still able) to remember when there were no speed limits know that's why teams will most always choose to conserve every drop they can.

The pit stop of today costs so much time it virtually eliminates the possibility of running full out to build a gap, therefore about the only strategy left is to save fuel to maximize the possibility of making it to a yellow or run a lap or two lighter than your immediate opponent.

[Insomniac]

Root for Servia at Houston!


While congratulating his new driver Sunday afternoon, Forsythe beamed: "There are not many guys who could have jumped into a strange car and did what Oriol did today."

Yet the co-owner of Champ Car wouldn't endorse him for the rest of the season.

"I'm not making any decisions yet," he said.

What if Servia wins Houston?

"Then he's definitely got the ride," replied Forsythe.
http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/36752/

[Hesketh]

Root for Servia at Houston!

While congratulating his new driver Sunday afternoon, Forsythe beamed: "There are not many guys who could have jumped into a strange car and did what Oriol did today."

Yet the co-owner of Champ Car wouldn't endorse him for the rest of the season.

"I'm not making any decisions yet," he said.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/36752/


Which shows that GF has learned nothing.

:shakehead :shakehead :shakehead

[KLang]

Root for Servia at Houston!


http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/36752/

Go Oriol! :thumbup: Let's see what he can do with a little more time in the car.

[Insomniac]

Which shows that GF has learned nothing.

:shakehead :shakehead :shakehead

Learned nothing from what?

He has PT hired. Servia is a sub. Mario only has the money/sponsorship for 3 races. To hire Servia would mean it's fully out of pocket for GF.

[Wheel-Nut]

I thought Servia had partial funding but could not get a deal.

[Racing Truth]

Learned nothing from what?

He has PT hired. Servia is a sub. Mario only has the money/sponsorship for 3 races. To hire Servia would mean it's fully out of pocket for GF.

Talent be d@mned!:shakehead

Not yelling at you Insomniac. Just sucks that this sport works that way.

[Insomniac]

Talent be d@mned!:shakehead

Not yelling at you Insomniac. Just sucks that this sport works that way.

Trust me, I'd love talent to win over $$$. I also can't rip into the guy who has dug deep into his pockets to keep ChampCar/CART around this long. If he doesn't want to pony up for another car, that's his choice. I'm guessing with that statement it's only worth it if the guy can win races (ala AJ last year and his willingness to run 2 cars until he went to NASCAR).

[FCYTravis]

Never has a falserer statement been typed. There are at least three of us!

I've always believed that fuel economy, like any other part of the sport, was an integral part of strategy, and if you could straggle around in 15th most of the day whilst saving fuel and making one less stop than everyone else, that option should be available to you. Racing is about getting to the end first, period. If the only thing that mattered was who could run the fastest laps, we'd just hold one big qualifying session and award points based on the best lap time for each driver.

The key, of course, is to be able to run a reasonable pace and still save fuel -- this is something which Bourdais is exceptional at, as we saw yesterday. Frankly, taking away the option to alter the fuel mixture makes this more of an advantage for him, not less of an advantage.

Oh, and the tires are too good too. Bridgestone makes a great product, and I can certainly understand why they don't want drivers complaining about the tires going off in post-race interviews, but if the tires were only at their peak for, say, 30-35 miles instead of 60-65, we would have a lot more interesting races and would add tire maintenance back into the necessary skill set for drivers.
Great post. I couldn't agree more.

[Ruben Barrios]

hope Servia stays at Forsythe and Mario walks...

because of this... Form someone standing in front of Ton Calderon (media relations for Forsythe) and Phill Lepan when Mario crashed...

"Damm Kid he is out for good, let`s bring the other Mexican pepper"... I have no reason to distrust the person who heard this first hand... ***k Forsythe...

He may not be good (or even decent) in their eyes, but that is disrespectfull to Mexico...

[OW]

Race Director was overloaded....
And cockpit audio locked up to a point of killing entire cc login

[Hesketh]

Trust me, I'd love talent to win over $$$. I also can't rip into the guy who has dug deep into his pockets to keep ChampCar/CART around this long. If he doesn't want to pony up for another car, that's his choice. I'm guessing with that statement it's only worth it if the guy can win races (ala AJ last year and his willingness to run 2 cars until he went to NASCAR).

I swear I don't understand fans. First, you guys bitch about lousy ride-buyers. Now, if I'm reading right, you're upset that a team owner dare want a driver who can actually WIN races! Crikey --- what exactly is it you think this sport is about, mate?? Personally, I like winning!

My original point that you were struggling with was that GF kept AJ on the fence about a contract: we'll see after ____. Win. we'll see after ____. Win. we'll see after ____. Win. By the time GF actually showed up at a freaking race and was ready to sign the kid, 'Dinger had an agent who was shopping him around.

Once again, GF has a driver who looks like he can do something with the car. So what does GF say? we'll see after ___. Apparently, he'd rather have a ride-buying wanker (and yes, MD is a wanker) in the seat ... at least until MD pisses him off again and he fires him again.

But now the fans are defending the lousy ride-buyer against a race winner..? :shakehead

[Insomniac]

I swear I don't understand fans. First, you guys bitch about lousy ride-buyers. Now, if I'm reading right, you're upset that a team owner dare want a driver who can actually WIN races! Crikey --- what exactly is it you think this sport is about, mate?? Personally, I like winning!

My original point that you were struggling with was that GF kept AJ on the fence about a contract: we'll see after ____. Win. we'll see after ____. Win. we'll see after ____. Win. By the time GF actually showed up at a freaking race and was ready to sign the kid, 'Dinger had an agent who was shopping him around.

Once again, GF has a driver who looks like he can do something with the car. So what does GF say? we'll see after ___. Apparently, he'd rather have a ride-buying wanker (and yes, MD is a wanker) in the seat ... at least until MD pisses him off again and he fires him again.

But now the fans are defending the lousy ride-buyer against a race winner..? :shakehead

I'm not defending ride buyers over talent. I don't own a team so I don't make those decisions. I understand the climate these guys are operating in and understand that there is little sponsor money. As I said, I'm not ripping the guy who has spent so much of his money to keep CC around for our enjoyment.

Ohhh, you're also not reading right.

[Spicoli]

Ohhh, you're also not reading right.


he does that from time to time. :D


:runs:

[Hesketh]

I'm not defending ride buyers over talent. I don't own a team so I don't make those decisions. I understand the climate these guys are operating in and understand that there is little sponsor money. As I said, I'm not ripping the guy who has spent so much of his money to keep CC around for our enjoyment.

Ohhh, you're also not reading right.

I read right. GF ain't no saint. Yes, he's spent money. But it sure looks like he needs to spend a helluva lot more --- why do the series half-assed? Why the sudden economy kick?

If you enjoy watching MD, I'm glad you're happy with GF's decisions. Personally, I got a lot more enjoyment watching AJ at FCR.

btw, did you know GF is filthy rich? He can afford to run a couple cars out of his pocket.

[Insomniac]

I read right. GF ain't no saint. Yes, he's spent money. But it sure looks like he needs to spend a helluva lot more --- why do the series half-assed? Why the sudden economy kick?

If you enjoy watching MD, I'm glad you're happy with GF's decisions. Personally, I got a lot more enjoyment watching AJ at FCR.

btw, did you know GF is filthy rich? He can afford to run a couple cars out of his pocket.

You clearly didn't. I don't want or prefer ride buyers. Without them, many teams would be operating at a loss without some help, whether it be from KK/GF or their own pockets.

You also act like there were never ride buyers in CART. There was, but there were so many more people out on track it was a smaller percentage.

I'm not calling GF a saint. Also, just because he has money doesn't mean he should spend it. How do you think he got "filthy" rich? It probably wasn't by burning money on a racing series and team that can't turn a profit. What has been on his sidepods the majority of the time since 2004?

Quit boo-hooing that GF won't hand out mega buck contracts. You want to bend things to make him look like the cheapskate, good luck. He was the one buying CART stock as it kept going down. He bought half of CART. He bought half of Cosworth. He bought half of LB and some other races. He gave PT a 5-year contract. He has run Indeck on his sidepods (Save for some short term sponsors like Carona and Telmex) for over 3 years. AJ hired an agent pretty fast. GF hired him after he was fired. How well would AJ have done at DCR? Blame GF for AJ leaving if you want, but it takes 2 to make a deal and AJ wanted the NASCAR $$$. I'm really sorry GF didn't want to pay him $8M for 3 years.

[Brian_R]

With the whole GF AJ thing, I'm still thinking Red Bull had something to do with "driver positioning" and moving AJ along capitalizing on some name recognition to move him to the tin tops. No sense on having several guys in the same series with Red Bull livery when all we seem to warrant is one, two tops.

[grungex]

My original point that you were struggling with was that GF kept AJ on the fence about a contract: we'll see after ____. Win. we'll see after ____. Win. we'll see after ____. Win. By the time GF actually showed up at a freaking race and was ready to sign the kid, 'Dinger had an agent who was shopping him around.

This is complete and utter BS.

[TravelGal]

This is complete and utter BS.

Agreed. Even if you think the timeline is correct, which I do not, the premise that GF had to be at a race to close a deal is absurd. I'm sure he AND AJ own telephones and, gak, even fax machines for signatures.

[Indy]

Great post. I couldn't agree more.

Me, too. Good post, Ed. Houston just proved the same points to be true.

[Indy]

4!



Different strategies are one of the ways teams can differentiate themselves and another way for drivers to show how good they are. After all, it's one thing to plan, quite another to execute.

One thing that is usually lost in discussions (both old and new) of fuel strategy is the huge penalty one pays for pitting in these days of pit lane speed limits. Those of us old enough (and still able) to remember when there were no speed limits know that's why teams will most always choose to conserve every drop they can.

The pit stop of today costs so much time it virtually eliminates the possibility of running full out to build a gap, therefore about the only strategy left is to save fuel to maximize the possibility of making it to a yellow or run a lap or two lighter than your immediate opponent.

Excellent point. I very much miss the days of unrestricted pit stops.

[Hesketh]

Agreed. Even if you think the timeline is correct, which I do not, the premise that GF had to be at a race to close a deal is absurd. I'm sure he AND AJ own telephones and, gak, even fax machines for signatures.

It's not bs. Gerry didn't come to AJ's first two races: i.e., first two wins.

And if you think Gerry's going to do a deal via fax, you don't know Gerry at all.

:shakehead

[Hesketh]

You clearly didn't. I don't want or prefer ride buyers. Without them, many teams would be operating at a loss without some help, whether it be from KK/GF or their own pockets.

You also act like there were never ride buyers in CART. There was, but there were so many more people out on track it was a smaller percentage.

I'm not calling GF a saint. Also, just because he has money doesn't mean he should spend it. How do you think he got "filthy" rich? It probably wasn't by burning money on a racing series and team that can't turn a profit. What has been on his sidepods the majority of the time since 2004?

Quit boo-hooing that GF won't hand out mega buck contracts. You want to bend things to make him look like the cheapskate, good luck. He was the one buying CART stock as it kept going down. He bought half of CART. He bought half of Cosworth. He bought half of LB and some other races. He gave PT a 5-year contract. He has run Indeck on his sidepods (Save for some short term sponsors like Carona and Telmex) for over 3 years. AJ hired an agent pretty fast. GF hired him after he was fired. How well would AJ have done at DCR? Blame GF for AJ leaving if you want, but it takes 2 to make a deal and AJ wanted the NASCAR $$$. I'm really sorry GF didn't want to pay him $8M for 3 years.


Oh, I read your posts correctly: no worries there, mate.

Nowhere did I indicate there haven't been ride-buyers all along. In fact, I don't even necessarily think they're all bad. My point was that certain fans/posters complain about ride-buyers all the time. Then, when GF has an opportunity to have a guy in a seat because he's talented, not because he's a ride-buyer, fans/posters complain again. I was trying to figure it out.

Ok, so you want to save GF some $$. Great. And tell me how that's going to help his team or his series. As I said earlier (if you were paying attention), why go half-measure? It's obvious that this series needs a big injection of cash to turn things around. Why get this far and suddenly decide to go on an economy kick? Makes no sense.

[Insomniac]

Oh, I read your posts correctly: no worries there, mate.

Nowhere did I indicate there haven't been ride-buyers all along. In fact, I don't even necessarily think they're all bad. My point was that certain fans/posters complain about ride-buyers all the time. Then, when GF has an opportunity to have a guy in a seat because he's talented, not because he's a ride-buyer, fans/posters complain again. I was trying to figure it out.

Ok, so you want to save GF some $$. Great. And tell me how that's going to help his team or his series. As I said earlier (if you were paying attention), why go half-measure? It's obvious that this series needs a big injection of cash to turn things around. Why get this far and suddenly decide to go on an economy kick? Makes no sense.

I don't want to save GF any money. I'm not going to tell him how to spend it either or get all bent out of shape when he won't overpay to keep AJ. Negotiations go both ways. He's already running PT out of his pocket, and adding Servia means 2 cars out of his pocket. I'd prefer Servia/PT to Dominguez/PT, but it's not my money or decision to make. During the broadcast yesterday GF said he'd run Servia the whole season if he won. Some may look at it like it wasn't really a big deal because Bourdais was going to win, but Servia was running 2nd, and in racing, anything could've happened to Bourdais.

[Luke]

Also, did anyone else notice the flags under the drivers names in the crawl at the top of the screen? Either Britain has replaced the Union Jack with a white field with a red cross, or someone at NBC doesn't know his flags very well. I thought the flag they showed was from a Scandinavian country (Finland?).



The st.george's flag which is the English flag.
Ps the British flag is the Union flag, the union jack is that flag on ships...

For some reason they don't give all of the drivers the correct flag. Some English drivers have the british flag instead of the English flag. No problem but some do and some don't which is confusing. especially when idiots like zer0 think Scotland is not part of Britian.

[cameraman]

They use the flag the driver requests.

[Luke]

yes well IMHO i just think its confusing, infact especially if they were to use the eu flag...

but hey i'm new to this forum, think i joined back in 2004 but hey everyone. :cool:

[skaven]

but hey i'm new to this forum, think i joined back in 2004 but hey everyone. :cool:

Welcome Yes to America ! ! ! :)

[Luke]

cheerz skaven.. :)

[RusH]

The st.george's flag which is the English flag.
Ps the British flag is the Union flag, the union jack is that flag on ships...

For some reason they don't give all of the drivers the correct flag. Some English drivers have the british flag instead of the English flag. No problem but some do and some don't which is confusing. especially when idiots like zer0 think Scotland is not part of Britian.

What`s up Luke, smacking zer0 I see. :rofl:

You disappeared for a while, welcome back to the innerwebs.

[Luke]

me and zer0 love each other really, christ our war was nearly as bad as zer0 and spicoli :saywhat: :rofl: :D

yeah, i gave up on ten tenths finally.

But I still post at CCF.

Noticed I joined here back in 2004 LOL quite a good forum of true fans so I thought why not start posting?

nice to hear from you rush. :)

[ChampcarShark]

Noticed I joined here back in 2004 LOL quite a good forum of true fans so I thought why not start posting?

It is still a the best forum to get inside info and get together with friends.