View Full Version : cheating at indy!
Spicoli
05-20-07, 11:43 PM
according to RM, injecting meth into the enmgines. caught by homoco.
let's see what happens, huh?:shakehead
Tony George
05-21-07, 12:06 AM
They are using hillbilly heroin??? :tony: :gomer:
all they have to do is add gasoline to get a hotter fuel load
should make great fodder at the mineshaft this week, the real racers hangout:tony:
all they have to do is add gasoline to get a hotter fuel load
should make great fodder at the mineshaft this week, the real racers hangout:tony:
Miller apparently said they were blowing methanol into the engines. I could see this as a short term way of getting more cooling during a qualifying run so they could close down the radiator air intake a bit more.
Audi_A4
05-21-07, 09:14 AM
forget about methanol they should inject some of that witch brew formula 1 fuel from the early 90's
Ahhem.....14 days later this story breaks? THIS is all they've got? And they handle it "internally" to protect the "SPONSORS"? Well that narrows it down as there's precious few WITH any sponsorship PLUS about eight teams didn't even show in the first week. Then you divide by 2, 3 or 4 cars per team and you have it pretty well narrowed down. Can't ya just see it yesterday after fill day finally ends.....Robert Clarke desperately trying to find media that would care "hey, did i tell ya we caught cheaters 2 weeks ago"?
This is the lamest attempt at publicity EVER! Every wetdream attempted by the IRL ends up with a sack of sheeet in their diapers!!! :D
It's not cheating if it's acknowledged internally. Ask Barry Green.....:shakehead
Miller tells it all in print.
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/37531/
All I'm going to say is that we saw methanol in the fuel and there was also some water involved so obviously it was to help create more power," said Robert Clarke, president of Honda Performance Development.
"I'm not going to say who was doing it or how they were doing it but we stopped it by removing the air temperature sensors from everybody's car.
"And we caught it before qualifying."
According to several mechanics in Gasoline Alley, the air temp sensor was used as a decoy so the methanol could be fed or sprayed directly into the fuel injectors. The air is cooled by raw fuel, which makes the mixture richer and, hence, more powerful.
A funny reading alerted the Honda engineers.
"We saw it in the exhaust temperatures, they were very high, off the scale," said Clarke. "So we informed the IRL and then sent a letter to the other teams informing them of what happened.
and this
Unlike NASCAR, which publicly calls out its cheaters, the IRL opts to keep most of its improprieties in house.
"The primary reasons for doing that is that's more the way things traditionally have been done in open wheel racing," said John Griffin, IRL vice president of communications.
"We prefer to handle it internally and there's always the sensitivity of team's sponsorship relationships."
And I bet IMS/IRL doesn't want much publicity because it would upset their fuel supplier for the public to find out that methanol is the better fuel. What are the odds that Rahal was caught with this on Simmons car? :rolleyes:
Tony's insider whispers in his ear
"We gotta do sumthin' jest liek they did at Daytoner"
Tony - uhhhhhhhhh, cool, uhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Andrew Longman
05-21-07, 10:35 AM
What's this:
In addition to the engine shenanigans, it was also believed the IRL confiscated three or four illegal rear wings following the last race at Kansas City.
So is the tradition in open wheel racing to just take you air sensors and wings away or are their fines and point deductions too?:rolleyes:
Just guessing on the methanol thing. I figure it would be someone stupid enough to think Honda wouldn't notice it on the telemetry and someone unconcerned about his relationship with Honda. Foyt?;)
eiregosod
05-21-07, 11:25 AM
Just shows you how eak the IRL is and how their cajones have slurped up into their abdomen:
"We prefer to handle it internally and there's always the sensitivity of team's sponsorship relationships."
who's ya daddy?
extramundane
05-21-07, 11:36 AM
according to RM, injecting meth into the enmgines.
That's no worse than injecting meth addicts into the drivers seats.
I miss PJ Chesson. :cry:
Unlike NASCAR, which publicly calls out its cheaters, the IRL opts to keep most of its improprieties in house.
"The primary reasons for doing that is that's more the way things traditionally have been done in open wheel racing," said John Griffin, IRL vice president of communications.
"We prefer to handle it internally and there's always the sensitivity of team's sponsorship relationships."
We'll that's because IRL doesn't want to lose 1 or 2 cars over this deal. Imagine if the sponsor read about this and decided to pull the plug? Then TG would have to sponsor 1 or 2 more cars....I'm betting it was the Foyt or Vision cars who got busted.
Wheel-Nut
05-21-07, 12:47 PM
and I have zero clue who it is but my GUESS would be Al Jr.
chop456
05-21-07, 12:48 PM
Pathetic, embarrassing sniveling, typical of a scared child.
Surprising?
Methanolandbrats
05-21-07, 12:49 PM
Who was cheating? If they found hammer marks on the motor it was Foyt. If the offending part was attached with duct tape it was Vision. If they found bottle caps in the footwell it was Al Jr.
Andrew Longman
05-21-07, 01:07 PM
We'll that's because IRL doesn't want to lose 1 or 2 cars over this deal. Imagine if the sponsor read about this and decided to pull the plug? Then TG would have to sponsor 1 or 2 more cars....I'm betting it was the Foyt or Vision cars who got busted.
I think it is more the case that if they say who it is there will be a more focused call for fine, penalties and disqualifications. Take a few cars off the grid and there is little chance they'll be replaced... or they'll be replace with sponsorless cars from Kite, Chesson and the like... or TG himself
TKGAngel
05-21-07, 01:10 PM
I think it is more the case that if they say who it is there will be a more focused call for fine, penalties and disqualifications. Take a few cars off the grid and there is little chance they'll be replaced... or they'll be replace with sponsorless cars from Kite, Chesson and the like... or TG himself
So no publicity is good publicity in this case?
I think it is more the case that if they say who it is there will be a more focused call for fine, penalties and disqualifications. Take a few cars off the grid and there is little chance they'll be replaced... or they'll be replace with sponsorless cars from Kite, Chesson and the like... or TG himself
Since, it was done in practice i don't think they can DQ the team, especially so late in the game.
It's all kept internal because that's where the decisions about what rules apply to which teams are made.
So no publicity is good publicity in this case?
Only after they locked in 33....
stroker
05-21-07, 02:41 PM
See, what we need to do right now is insist on a drug test for all the drivers.
Chitowncartfreak
05-21-07, 02:54 PM
Well, let's see here.
PRIOR TO QUALIFYING: Ganassi drivers are fast
QUALIFYING: Ganassi drivers not so fast.
Hmmmm...
Insomniac
05-21-07, 03:24 PM
Well, let's see here.
PRIOR TO QUALIFYING: Ganassi drivers are fast
QUALIFYING: Ganassi drivers not so fast.
Hmmmm...
Quite a few people here think it's a back of the grid team. I personally would think it was one or more of the front runners who did it, and I'd be surprised if they just started at Indy as well.
forget about methanol they should inject some of that witch brew formula 1 fuel from the early 90's
Toluene tastes yummy :)
Toluene tastes yummy :)
Especiallly in a gasoline cocktail with benzene, methyl ethyl ketone, and ether.
:D
TKGAngel
05-21-07, 03:42 PM
Originally Posted by Ankf00 : Toluene tastes yummy
Especiallly in a gasoline cocktail with benzene, methyl ethyl ketone, and ether. :D
Gives new meaning to fire in the hole. ;)
It's all kept internal because that's where the decisions about what rules apply to which teams are made.
I like a series where all teams are equal, but some teams are more equal than others.
I think they said not one of the top 3 teams (Penske, Ganassi or Andretti).
Spicoli
05-21-07, 03:47 PM
Well, let's see here.
PRIOR TO QUALIFYING: Ganassi drivers are fast
QUALIFYING: Ganassi drivers not so fast.
Hmmmm...
Gan*******'s peeps would never cheat.
Had to be Larry "The Biggest Loser" Curry. boss man say he keep jobby-job.:gomer:
Had to be Larry "The Biggest Loser" Curry:gomer:
Yeah, but do they teach "fluid dynamics thingy" in jail? And, how did methanol get through Bob Cole's elaborate security system of bomb sniffing dogs and beer cooler inpections?
Bob Cole>>> What's that?
Flunky Gomer>>>> Umm, errr...Methanol.
Bob Cole>>> OK...., have a great day sir.
Spicoli
05-22-07, 01:18 PM
Yeah, but do they teach "fluid dynamics thingy" in jail? And, how did methanol get through Bob Cole's elaborate security system of bomb sniffing dogs and beer cooler inpections?
Bob Cole>>> What's that?
Flunky Gomer>>>> Umm, errr...Methanol.
Bob Cole>>> OK...., have a great day sir.
:rofl:
your hate is good. :thumbup:
toymaker
05-22-07, 03:14 PM
Overheard two wrenches on Monday saying that they were cheating when they ran Infiniti's too. Does that help ID?
Overheard two wrenches on Monday saying that they were cheating when they ran Infiniti's too. Does that help ID?
Not really. Don't follow the leege much.
this helps! (http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070522/SPORTS0101/705220439)DRR fined for cheating.
Wheel-Nut
05-22-07, 03:45 PM
and I have zero clue who it is but my GUESS would be Al Jr.
I lose! :D
I lose! :D
EVERYBODY loses when it comes to the earl.
lol at spicoli your hate is good.
Well IMHO to first not mention which teams cheated incase it hurt their sponsors, well ffs, they cheated they should have been banned from the month!
Then again 3 D&R cars would have left them with less than 33, as only 1 car attempted to bump.
:shakehead
A brief look at D&R Racing's practice times before Pole Day and in Quals.
Practice 2
13 15 Rice, Buddy D/H/F 40.4138 222.696 25 29
17 5 Fisher, Sarah D/H/F 40.4965 222.241 27 34
Practice 3
13 5 Fisher, Sarah D/H/F 40.1114 224.375 73 73
18 15 Rice, Buddy D/H/F 40.4707 222.383 31 41
Practice 4
13 15 Rice, Buddy D/H/F 40.1741 224.025 59 66
16 5 Fisher, Sarah D/H/F 40.2314 223.706 62 63
Practice 5 (Pole Day)
18 15 Rice, Buddy D/H/F 40.4707 222.383 31 41
20 5 Fisher, Sarah D/H/F 40.5690 221.844 12 12
Pole Day qual run
16 15 Rice, Buddy D/H/F 40.5638 40.5646 40.6047 40.6005 02:42.3336 221.766 Pole Day Bumped
Qualification Day 2
16 15 Rice, Buddy D/H/F 40.3948 40.3803 40.4007 40.3854 02:41.5612 222.826 2nd Day
21 5 Fisher, Sarah D/H/F 40.5424 40.5814 40.5408 40.5268 02:42.1914 221.960 2nd Day
Hey! it kinda looks like they were cheating with the Divine Miss Fisher's ride as well as Buddy's! Note that the fastest lap comes late in the number of laps run by each on Days 3 and 4 and the speed goes away during Pole Day practice.
Barnhart said officials of the team claimed an inexperienced crew member used an old container of fuel to prior to the car practicing in the middle of the day on May 12. The presence of water in the fuel would support that, he said.
How plausable is THIS? Do they always keep old containers of fuel laying around over there? Where does Ethanol come from.....Back in the old days before ethanol they had a big Valvoline truck pump the tanks with methanol.
What a bunch of horseshiet. Does the IMS brainidiots think we're stupid?
The explanation appears bogus, Chief. Big surprise. The practice results I posted above suggest that D&R was experimenting with the water/methanol injection or just spiking the fuel load on May 10 and 11. Looks like they were busted after Friday and lost the new found speed on Saturday May 12.
BTW, water/methanol injection is really old school stuff. It was used in WW2 fighter planes to provide war emergency power in dogfights.
This article is damage control..."we handle this stuff internally". When Tony said he was going to be "nimble" no one counted on him being so "swift". :laugh:
I could almost believe the milk jug story. AJ always had milk jugs of methanol to fuel his entries gallon by gallon for quals. I always supposed he was using special brew that way and IMS looked away. The problem is a milk jug of methanol would probably soften and melt sitting for a year in a disused garage.
Methanolandbrats
05-22-07, 09:57 PM
A friend of mine did some WKA National Karting and they insisted on fresh fuel every weekend because of water absorption or something like that. I doubt anyone would keep a gallon of year old methanol around for an Indycar.:rolleyes:
From the Indystar article...
Dreyer & Reinbold Racing has been fined $25,000 for an illegal fuel mixture used in one of its cars during the first day of Indianapolis 500 qualifications.
Damn that's like ten cases of Soda Pop.:p
A friend of mine did some WKA National Karting and they insisted on fresh fuel every weekend because of water absorption or something like that. I doubt anyone would keep a gallon of year old methanol around for an Indycar.:rolleyes:
Yes I am a kart racer, (although currently having time off) and the slightest change to the fuel can be a huge advantage, a slightly high octane level and you get seriously quicker lap times.
Get found banned for a year from racing by MSA. They scrutinize after every session.
Seems karting is more professional than the Indy 500 these days. :shakehead
http://www.irl-live.com/indy/en/index.html?http://www.irl-live.com/indy/en/headlines/news/detail/070523085709.shtml
Honda has found more teams cheating than D&R, but none are named. D&G looks like the sacrificial lamb on this episode of Cheaters. Goes into more details than the mystery jug of methanol, including the taking away of the fuel mixture button and giving the driver only two settings for green flag and yellow flag conditions.
That link has mysteriously disappeared.
Sean O'Gorman
05-23-07, 09:39 PM
No it hasn't, the dots were included in the URL.
http://www.irl-live.com/indy/en/index.html?http://www.irl-live.com/indy/en/headlines/news/detail/070523085709.shtml ( http://www.irl-live.com/indy/en/index.html?http://www.irl-live.com/indy/en/headlines/news/detail/070523085709.shtml)
Here's the good stuff from the Racing-live.com story.
Interestingly, the DRR fuel 'mistake' comes on the heels of several fuel related incidents uncovered during practice for the Indianapolis 500. In hindsight, these all cast suspicion that DRR may have been doing other work outside of the rule book.
Early in the Month of May, it was revealed that Honda was taking away all teams ability to adjust their fuel mixture during the race. Instead they would get just two options: one for green flag conditions, and the other for running under a caution period.
The original report indicated Honda had found unexplained detonation at a particular fuel setting and Honda was being cautious by mandating a single fuel flow 'map'. Honda sources indicate this change occurred during the first week of practice and before pole day qualifying on May 12th.
During the final day of qualifying, May 20th, another story surfaced that teams had also had the engine air temperature sensors taken away. Honda, team, and IRL officials confirmed this was indeed the case and indicated the change also happened before May 12th.
Sources (requesting anonymity), have revealed that a team was using the air temperature probe to get methanol in to the engine's fuel injectors. When also mixed with a slight amount of water, this would cool the ethanol (and now illegal methanol) fuel mixture, creating more powerful combustion and thus increased horsepower
TKGAngel
05-24-07, 09:36 AM
Early in the Month of May, it was revealed that Honda was taking away all teams ability to adjust their fuel mixture during the race. Instead they would get just two options: one for green flag conditions, and the other for running under a caution period.
Does this mean that Honda took away the ability of teams to run a fuel-strategy race?
Andrew Longman
05-24-07, 10:20 AM
Does this mean that Honda took away the ability of teams to run a fuel-strategy race?
Hard to say. Since they run around foot to the floor anyway, there is not much chance to breath the engine and do the things a driver might do to save fuel on a road course. Changing a fuel setting doesn't do too much except make you slower.
They can still choose to run in a lower gear to save fuel, but at Indy the only way fuel usually comes into play is if you get out of sequence and catch yellows at the right time. See Danica in 05 or Marco in 06. Both got out front at the end due to pitting out of sequence. Danica looked to be running out of fuel at the end and would not have finished if Bourdais hadn't wrecked. Marco too would not likely have finished if that late caution hadn't come out.
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