View Full Version : Forsythe advocates E85 for Champ Car
http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2007/the_way_it_is_no60.html
"It's an alternative fuel that burns cleaner," Forsythe [said]. "I mean, who else burns methanol? It's not a friendly smell and today you've got to burn something that has a green look. The diesel Audi is cool. That's great to see, and even the ALMS is making the move to ethanol. As far as I'm concerned, the time has come for E85 on the road and in racing."
Politics, economics, and ecological arguments about ethanol as a motor fuel aside, racing with E85 could mean Champ Car raising the fuel mileage target to around 3.0 mpg. E85 has about 70% of the energy gallon for gallon to gasoline while methanol has about 50%. With a 35 gallon fuel cell that could mean one stop fuel strategies for many of the races and teams needing to decide if tire only stops are possible.
opinionated ow
05-21-07, 10:53 PM
bugger off. methanol is racing fuel. lets not get gomerific here.
bugger off. methanol is racing fuel. lets not get gomerific here.
Tell that to Forsythe, not me. I'm trying to be an dispassionate observer here.
opinionated ow
05-21-07, 11:35 PM
Tell that to Forsythe, not me. I'm trying to be an dispassionate observer here.
sorry mate, not directed at you. just pissed off with this "evironmental" (my bum) pandering that everyone is doing.
ferrarigod
05-22-07, 01:54 AM
:rolleyes: jesus.
cameraman
05-22-07, 02:10 AM
E85 burns cleaner than 100% methanol in a turbo charged engine?
And you will note
It's not a friendly smell and today you've got to burn something that has a green look.
It doesn't have to actually be green, it just has to look the part:shakehead
Forsythe owns an interest in 14 Ethanol plants. He's the boss and can do what he want's to.
I don't know that I care what fuel the cars run. <shrug>
Andrew Longman
05-22-07, 09:35 AM
Is E85 water soluable? One feature of methanol I always thought was important is how easy it is to put out a fire with just a bucket of water.
Green issues aside, I always love the smell of methanol in the morning (warm up).:D
jonovision_man
05-22-07, 09:45 AM
Forsythe owns an interest in 14 Ethanol plants.
Ahhh. Makes sense then.
Ethanol had some promise, I still think there is something to be said for the environment when you look at the full lifecycle of the carbon. The carbon in the plant comes from the air (photosynthesis), and when you burn it you return it to the air. Compare that to fossil fuels which introduce new carbon to the air that was previously burried deep in the ground.
However when you look at the actual numbers, there's no it can be produced in the amounts required to fuel even a small part of North America. Not to mention the pressure that will be put on food prices and supplies world-wide when good farming land is being used to create fuel for our cars instead of food... or the subsidies required to make it economically viable.
Nice idea, though. Too bad.
jono
Green issues aside, I always love the smell of methanol in the morning (warm up).:D
It is a nostalgia inducing aroma, isn't it? E85 in the morning would beat bio-diesel at dawn in my book, though.
Isn't anybody interested in speculating about how this would change the racing?
As I wrote above... racing with E85 could mean Champ Car raising the fuel mileage target to around 3.0 mpg. E85 has about 70% of the energy gallon for gallon as gasoline while methanol has about 50%. With a 35 gallon fuel cell that could mean possible one stop fuel strategies for many of the races and teams needing to decide if tire only stops are worth it.
I hope they would reduce the size of the fuel cells so the number of pit stops wouldn't be reduced. Nowadays that is often where much of the action is. :(
Yep, less fuel = less weight = faster cars! Speed and sound trump smell in my book. 25 gal. tanks sounds about right. To offset the energy loss can the turbo simply be boosted? How much weight saving in 10 gallons?
Gerry is a salesman with a (heavily) vested interest and a series owner so if the idea works there, fine but people who see corn based ethanol production as our salvation are either farmers or politicians. Lower fuel prices or reduce our foreign dependence?...take your pick. Reduce foreign dependence AND lower overall fuel costs? I don't think we have the patience OR the guts, but those of us with long memories can hardly feel sorry for ourselves. "Energy self-sufficient by the year 2000!" Remember THAT state Of The Union speech?
corn ethanol is negative net energy.
there are many sources of ethanol which are positive net energy.
the pit stop thing might be nice in that as the tires wear down, more exact control must be exercised, less room for error
i dunno...
Tifosi24
05-22-07, 11:58 AM
Granted Champ Car doesn't have a real presence in the Midwest anymore, but E85 would have a significant cross-promotion potential in this region (again something Champ Car isn't the best at.) Using E85 instead of 100% like the other side makes more sense from a branding standpoint, as many people in this part of the world hear about E85 frequently. As Ank pointed out, corn based ethanol is not the solution, but being involved with E85 would allow for cooperation with universities and other research institutions and could creat more publicity for the brand. I think it also holds some potential from an on-track angle because of the smaller fuel tanks it could possibly allow. We'll see what happens.
Insomniac
05-22-07, 12:24 PM
I'm all for it. I'd like to see the fuel tank made small enough that the time to fill the tank is less than the time to change the tires.
cameraman
05-22-07, 12:32 PM
If it means fewer gallons per pit stop that would be great. Champ Car fueling is ALMS-slow at the moment, anything that speeds the stop times would be welcome. A safe & reliable pressurized fueling system would be nice. The ability to do a 2 second splash & go stop would improve the racing, a splash & go looks to be impossibly slow this year.
Wheel-Nut
05-22-07, 12:36 PM
What would the other 15% be? Gasoline?
What would the other 15% be? Gasoline?Red Bull.
DagoFast
05-22-07, 12:41 PM
If it means fewer gallons per pit stop that would be great. Champ Car fueling is ALMS-slow at the moment, anything that speeds the stop times would be welcome. A safe & reliable pressurized fueling system would be nice. The ability to do a 2 second splash & go stop would improve the racing, a splash & go looks to be impossibly slow this year.
Yeah, if ChampCar makes the switch to tonyfuel they won't even have to fix the fuels cells or the vents! They can only get 20 gallons in there now! :gomer:
Let's see, save money on parts and unka Gerry owns 14 E85 plants? :win/win!
:yuck: :yuck:
cameraman
05-22-07, 12:53 PM
Yeah, if ChampCar makes the switch to tonyfuel they won't even have to fix the fuels cells or the vents! They can only get 20 gallons in there now! :gomer:
A "safe and reliable pressurized fueling system" would by definition include fuel cells and vents that actually functioned:rolleyes:
Methanolandbrats
05-22-07, 01:22 PM
Methanol smells great. He's wrong. Motorsports uses so little fuel, who the hell cares what they run on. They're supposed to go fast, not save the Planet. The turbo sound combined with methanol fumes, cooked brake pad dust and a little scorched oil is the potpourri of ChampCar.:thumbup:
Brian_R
05-22-07, 01:49 PM
Liking ChampCars on E85 is like admitting you'd rather have "New" Coke.
Andrew Longman
05-22-07, 01:51 PM
The turbo sound combined with methanol fumes, cooked brake pad dust and a little scorched oil is the potpourri of ChampCar.:thumbup:
You left out the brats and beer.:D
Don Quixote
05-22-07, 02:05 PM
This is painful. Leave it alone I say. Switching from meth to eth is a step backwards, and all for appearances. Biodiesel or hydrogen fuel cells would be more interesting, imo. JF should run for Senate, where he could nurture his conflicts of interest to their full extent.
Methanolandbrats
05-22-07, 02:52 PM
They have a successful formula. Just stay the course and grow the series.
They have a successful formula. Just stay the course and grow the series.
Successful formula by what standard? The only growth we're seeing is in the series irrelevance.
Liking ChampCars on E85 is like admitting you'd rather have "New" Coke.
Ewwww. That just brought back some painful memories.
DagoFast
05-22-07, 03:23 PM
A "safe and reliable pressurized fueling system" would by definition include fuel cells and vents that actually functioned:rolleyes:
Dood, I'm not bustin' on you.
It's Unka Gerry that deserves the: :gomer:
Methanolandbrats
05-22-07, 03:31 PM
Successful formula by what standard? The only growth we're seeing is in the series irrelevance. I said successful formula, not series. The faithful like turbos, methanol and a variety of courses and the faithful is the basis for growth. At this point, they can not afford to piss off the faithful.
This is painful. Leave it alone I say. Switching from meth to eth is a step backwards,
seeing as methanol can be toxic, and C2H5OH is Shiva's most glorious creation, I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
cameraman
05-22-07, 04:33 PM
I don't recommend that you try drinking E85 anytime soon....
I guess it is a matter of "define forward." For who? For how long? If running E85 helps CC attract interest, sponsors and their cash and even gives the perception of social responsibility, then engineer and GO for it. Series rules changes come and go. Make the best moves NOW. Heck, even get KK to build an eth plant that processes rice or switchgrass to deflect the current trend to bash (correctly so) corn use. "Champcars run on rice husks!":) Think one of the Amigos would walk if that happened?:D . If we think GF is thinking anything but bottom line on his business investments then I'd say we are wrong. A comet could come streaking for earth to destroy all living things and Gerry would call his broker and shout "SELL!" If the E85 strategy helps CC in the short term, good. As a national solution to our energy needs? No way. I don't own a race series. I don't own 10-50% interest in 14 ethanol plants. I have driven automobiles since 1964 however and ALL of my daily drivers have given me 30+ mpg and I watch how much I drive. WE are the solution, not E100, 85, or 10 (which is what I have had to use for YEARS!) Maybe the "Hybrid Synergy Drive Bio-Diesel 500" would help us focus a little. No need to place all the blame on the fuel source. Just be prepared to pay a lot more for that energy independence (feed costs, meat costs, milk costs etc. etc.) than for foreign oil.
Don Quixote
05-22-07, 06:52 PM
seeing as methanol can be toxic, and C2H5OH is Shiva's most glorious creation, I'm going to have to disagree with you there.
The real pros, i.e. sterno drinkers, build up a tolerance to the methanol over time. :D If anyone switches to corn sqeezins it should be NASCAR.
Insomniac
05-22-07, 09:13 PM
I said successful formula, not series. The faithful like turbos, methanol and a variety of courses and the faithful is the basis for growth. At this point, they can not afford to piss off the faithful.
The faithful can't be the basis for growth. They're the ones hanging on through all this. They need mored viewers in addition to retaining the ones left (faithful).
Methanolandbrats
05-22-07, 09:51 PM
The faithful can't be the basis for growth. They're the ones hanging on through all this. They need mored viewers in addition to retaining the ones left (faithful). The faithful keep you in business while you search for a way to grow. If change does not attract new fans and alienates the faithful, you are out of business.
Forsythe should hook Champ Car up with BP Bio Fuels.
http://www.technologyreview.com/Energy/18443/
... Philip New, president of BP Biofuels, a recently created company within the giant British oil producer, thinks it has a solution: butanol. While butanol, like ethanol, can be made from corn starch or sugar beets, its properties are a lot more like gasoline than like ethanol. That means it can be shipped in existing gasoline pipelines. And it contains more energy than ethanol does, which will improve mileage per gallon.
Last month BP announced that it will be working with the University of California, Berkeley, on a $500 million, 10-year program, part of which will be devoted to research on improving biofuels such as butanol. And last year BP announced a partnership with DuPont to develop new technology for making butanol. DuPont will provide expertise in biotechnology. Technology Review spoke with New about the company's plans at a recent energy conference at MIT.
I've run butanol/gasoline mixes in small ignition two strokes. A good motor fuel, but expensive in gallon can lots when sold as an industrial solvent or paint thinner.
Insomniac
05-22-07, 11:45 PM
The faithful keep you in business while you search for a way to grow. If change does not attract new fans and alienates the faithful, you are out of business.
They haven't been able to do anything to keep the faithful or grow the series noticably since the split. I doubt changing fuel will change anything.
cameraman
05-23-07, 12:35 AM
A good motor fuel, but expensive in gallon can lots when sold as an industrial solvent or paint thinner.
Butanol makes more sense than ethanol especially since you can ferment it using anything that you can make ethanol from plus wood and leaves (grasses).
opinionated ow
05-23-07, 12:41 AM
Butanol makes more sense than ethanol especially since you can ferment it using anything that you can make ethanol from plus wood and leaves (grasses).
butanol smells like off cheese. we once sprinkled some in the playground as a joke...it worked a treat:rofl:
cameraman
05-23-07, 12:43 AM
I work with it every day. The **** stinks.
Yes, but is it as super-delicious as hydroxidemifcated ethane? That's the clincher.
Retaining methanol just to keep the 4000 (and shrinking) remaining faithful fans would be the height of stupidity. Therefore, I fully expect Champ Car management to pursue that course.
Do we honestly give a damn what laboratory made fuel is used as long as it is an internal combustion engine?
Methanolandbrats
05-23-07, 12:05 PM
Retaining methanol just to keep the 4000 (and shrinking) remaining faithful fans would be the height of stupidity. Therefore, I fully expect Champ Car management to pursue that course.
Do we honestly give a damn what laboratory made fuel is used as long as it is an internal combustion engine?
Your're right. Who need tradition, just use great big rubber bands all twisted up in a big ****ing ball for power and I bet within three years the TV ratings will upstage the NFL.
the sport is dead and worthless if the fart juice in the gas tank constitutes "tradition"
Sean O'Gorman
05-23-07, 01:07 PM
Your're right. Who need tradition, just use great big rubber bands all twisted up in a big ****ing ball for power and I bet within three years the TV ratings will upstage the NFL.
Again, what does it matter?
Spicoli
05-23-07, 01:13 PM
E85 = Steal ethanol sponsorship from the :gomer: s and bring back rahole. :thumbup:
jonovision_man
05-23-07, 01:13 PM
Again, what does it matter?
Methanolandbrats just doesn't want to have to change screen names. ;)
Personally, I don't care. I've been to a lot of races and most of the time I have no idea what they're putting in tanks, especially for support races. Could be rat carcasses for all I care. As long as the cars go fast and sound great, makes no difference.
And who could possibly be against GF getting a little richer on government subsidies? ;)
jono
Methanolandbrats just doesn't want to have to change screen names. ;)
He could change it to E85andcornydogs. :p
Jag_Warrior
05-23-07, 06:04 PM
the sport is dead and worthless if the fart juice in the gas tank constitutes "tradition"
These days, it seems that's about all that's left. I hope they stick with round wheels. If they ever move to square ones, I'm outta here! That's my line in the sand!
Sean O'Gorman
05-23-07, 06:18 PM
These days, it seems that's about all that's left. I hope they stick with round wheels. If they ever move to square ones, I'm outta here! That's my line in the sand!
What if its done to bring back the Canadian crowd?
The last thing Champ Car needs to do is imitate IRL gimmickry.
Put on good races, and they will come.
DagoFast
05-24-07, 10:39 AM
The last thing Champ Car needs to do is imitate IRL gimmickry.
Put on good races, and they will come.
No! Surely you jest? It couldn't be that simple! I mean, there's fluid dynamic thingy's and IPO's and stuff.
jonovision_man
05-24-07, 11:07 AM
These days, it seems that's about all that's left. I hope they stick with round wheels. If they ever move to square ones, I'm outta here! That's my line in the sand!
It's the DP-02!
http://radio.weblogs.com/0105910/images/square_wheels.jpg
jono
TU Homer
05-24-07, 11:49 AM
Anyone remember the LED lights on the wheels, used for sponsorship? That was pretty cool.
-TU
Anyone remember the LED lights on the wheels, used for sponsorship? That was pretty cool.
-TU
That was Toyota for Newman/Hass. And yes it was :cool: .
If Cosworth is building a crap wagon engine as rumored, it's probably just so they can have all their engines running the same fuel which will cut costs.
jonovision_man
05-24-07, 12:31 PM
If Cosworth is building a crap wagon engine as rumored, it's probably just so they can have all their engines running the same fuel which will cut costs.
It would only truly cut costs if it's the same engine... NA anyone?
Side question - Anyone know if Cosworth is still pursuing F1? Or is that completely dead?
jono
the methanol fueling systems are already designed, it's not like they're pouring any money into further development.
switching to E85 with the same engines would be new design/development cost, not a savings.
If they want just a environmental PR campaign ploy that also helps out an owner's portfolio, have at it.
E 85 is not the answer to any question in any way, and the limited use on some weekends by a few race cars with low MPG figures does nothing at all.
Only a :gomer: would buy into it. Last time I looked they have.
Running the team's and CC support and road transport on used cooking oil would be a better ploy.
Ploy being the bottom line?
Smelling like French Fries, Fried Chicken ect. might fit in very well. Recycled cooking oils by McDonalds, KFC, ect. think of the sponsorship opportunities. No trans fat and eco friendly.
Oh, and get Nick Fry to market it...
:rolleyes:
Jag_Warrior
05-24-07, 07:54 PM
Cosworth ran a bio-ethanol 2.65 turbo XDE in a Reynard LMP900 chassis at Sebring four or five years ago. And if I'm not mistaken, the engine ran on a 98% ethanol mixture.
It was dog slow, but it sure made a nice diecast. :cool:
Jag_Warrior
05-24-07, 08:13 PM
Side question - Anyone know if Cosworth is still pursuing F1? Or is that completely dead?
jono
I dunno. I read that the better part of the F1 race engineering staff was either laid off or had left. But I don't know if there is still a goal of getting back into F1 or not. Most of what's left in Northampton seems to focus on road car and other engineering support services... which is a little odd (to me): a year or so ago, I read that Pi Group's road car division was sold by Kalkhoven and Forsythe... to a South African firm maybe? I haven't read anything about that since then though.
It would only truly cut costs if it's the same engine... NA anyone?
Side question - Anyone know if Cosworth is still pursuing F1? Or is that completely dead?
jono
Cosworth layed off all most all of the F1 staff. If somebody needs an engine for 2008 and has the money (ie ProDrive) I suppose Cosworth could get the program going again and be competitive, especially since F1 went with freezing the development spec for engines towards the end of 2006. Despite what Frank said, it was the Williams chassis that sucked.
ALMS and crapwagons run ethanol. It doesn't make any sense to be the odd man out. Two fuels is more expensive than one, even if some people don't understand the financial concept of investing now to save later.
Plus, Honda still wants competition. Cosworth is probably the only one willing to compete with them, and if Honda wants to compete in ethanol that'll happen because Honda has got the bucks.
Andrew Longman
05-25-07, 10:46 AM
Sure, but Honda surely would rather compete against a badged competitor. Competing against a company that doesn't sell cars doesn't do them nearly as much good. Ford (or someone) needs to be on the Cosworth valve covers
extramundane
05-25-07, 10:50 AM
ALMS and crapwagons run ethanol.
ALMS doesn't run ethanol. They did mandate an 10% ethanol blend, but most of the field has managed to weasel out of it through loopholes. I know Rahal's running it, but he may be the only one.
Sure, but Honda surely would rather compete against a badged competitor. Competing against a company that doesn't sell cars doesn't do them nearly as much good. Ford (or someone) needs to be on the Cosworth valve covers
The rumor going around is that the badge will be offered for free.
More hints of closer ties next year as Mindy approaches.
Graham Rahal believes some Champ Car teams could sell additional sponsorship based on competing at Indianapolis.
"I think the idea of Champ Car going to Indy next year with five or six drivers, or however many it may be, would be great for the Champ Car World Series," he said. "It would be good for the sponsors involved with those drivers because they would get the best of both worlds. They would get the Indy 500, which is the best in the IRL, and they would get Long Beach, Las Vegas and all our big events in Champ Car."
ALMS doesn't run ethanol. They did mandate an 10% ethanol blend, but most of the field has managed to weasel out of it through loopholes. I know Rahal's running it, but he may be the only one.
Fair enough. But Honda's got the big money in that league, so they would change if Honda wanted it. I'm not a big ALMS fan, and I haven't heard much about Cosworth in that league lately, but there were rumblings about Cosworth and ALMS a while ago.
ALMS and crapwagons run ethanol. It doesn't make any sense to be the odd man out. Two fuels is more expensive than one, even if some people don't understand the financial concept of investing now to save later.
there's are existing providers of methanol with no supply constraints, a fuel used by already designed and developed engines which only require maintenance costs, there's nothing to save even neglecting sunk costs.
the possible advantage is in the fuel properties and its bearing on competition, as pchall posted originally, and the PR angle.
jonovision_man
05-25-07, 12:41 PM
More hints of closer ties next year as Mindy approaches.
Graham Rahal believes some Champ Car teams could sell additional sponsorship based on competing at Indianapolis.
"I think the idea of Champ Car going to Indy next year with five or six drivers, or however many it may be, would be great for the Champ Car World Series," he said. "It would be good for the sponsors involved with those drivers because they would get the best of both worlds. They would get the Indy 500, which is the best in the IRL, and they would get Long Beach, Las Vegas and all our big events in Champ Car."
It's a nice idea, but in practice it's going to be tough to compete against the full-time IRL teams who work with the car all season. Heck, even most of the full-time teams in the IRL can't keep up!
Of course that shouldn't be an issue for Graham Rahal... :)
jono
TU Homer
05-25-07, 01:32 PM
More hints of closer ties next year as Mindy approaches.
Graham Rahal believes some Champ Car teams could sell additional sponsorship based on competing at Indianapolis.
"I think the idea of Champ Car going to Indy next year with five or six drivers, or however many it may be, would be great for the Champ Car World Series," he said. "It would be good for the sponsors involved with those drivers because they would get the best of both worlds. They would get the Indy 500, which is the best in the IRL, and they would get Long Beach, Las Vegas and all our big events in Champ Car."
And it also means several of those CCWS drivers going to Mindy would also get a ride in Kansas City or better yet, Montegi. Otherwise, too tough to compete.
-TU
Yep. The owners might be doing dumb things because they're dumb, but that's not the only possiblity.
extramundane
05-25-07, 02:06 PM
Fair enough. But Honda's got the big money in that league, so they would change if Honda wanted it.
Doubt it. The resistance to the 10% ethanol blend has been pretty strong. The Germans (who put more money in than Honda) aren't too keen on the ethanol blends, and I can't imagine they'd go for straight eth.
I'm not a big ALMS fan, and I haven't heard much about Cosworth in that league lately, but there were rumblings about Cosworth and ALMS a while ago.
The ALMS/Cosworth thing turned out to be a scam. Cosworth has sold exactly zero LMP engines at this point and is actively looking for a manufacturer to badge it (sound familiar?).
"I think the idea of Champ Car going to Indy next year with five or six drivers, or however many it may be, would be great for the Champ Car World Series," he said. "It would be good for the sponsors involved with those drivers because they would get the best of both worlds. They would get the Indy 500, which is the best in the IRL, and they would get Long Beach, Las Vegas and all our big events in Champ Car."
Déjà vu of a crap idea all over again. ;)
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