View Full Version : Do IRL Team Owners Have ANY Control?
I recall a recent IRL race where two of the power brokers (Penske and Ganassi) appeared on-screen with the specific purpose of telling the IRL audience that there needed to be one open wheel series. It was odd....kinda like POW's marched in front of the TV cameras for enemy propaganda. It was like they were secretly saying "get us the **** out of here".
I ask the question: Do IRL Team Owners Have ANY Control? Do they have a separate "owners group" or is it forbidden in the IRL charter to form an owners group (for fear there'd be an uprising against the leadership)?
I ask because the IRL is a french fry short from being a happy meal of disgruntled owners NOT HAPPY with the direction of the IRL (and directly the Indy 500). Even the "tow the line" IRL owners MUST be feeling the heat. Answers anyone?
DagoFast
05-26-07, 12:07 PM
Sorry Chief,
I ceased caring about the race or the facility back around 1998. I still held out hope for a fix or settlement of some sort until 2001.
I've taken D's advise and evolved. I'm now rooting for toeknee to retain his iron grip on the track and persue whatever visions he damn well chooses. It's apparent to me now that the gomers were correct and FTG has a destiny to fulfill. I say go, toeknee go! I now derive immense pleasure watching him grind the 500 and all the sacred tarditions in to the ground.
A group of car owners don't mean crap. See, when you realize no group or one other person on this planet could have done the unthinkable or seemingly impossible and killed the Indy 500, you'll have to agree, it could only be destiny.
Insomniac
05-26-07, 12:23 PM
I recall a recent IRL race where two of the power brokers (Penske and Ganassi) appeared on-screen with the specific purpose of telling the IRL audience that there needed to be one open wheel series. It was odd....kinda like POW's marched in front of the TV cameras for enemy propaganda. It was like they were secretly saying "get us the **** out of here".
I ask the question: Do IRL Team Owners Have ANY Control? Do they have a separate "owners group" or is it forbidden in the IRL charter to form an owners group (for fear there'd be an uprising against the leadership)?
I ask because the IRL is a french fry short from being a happy meal of disgruntled owners NOT HAPPY with the direction of the IRL (and directly the Indy 500). Even the "tow the line" IRL owners MUST be feeling the heat. Answers anyone?
The IRL is fully controlled by TG. They have to live with him if they want to race at Indy. It really is that simple. Don't think for a second when Penske makes his annual call for unification he has any intention of leaving the IRL. His money is there, not CC. When he says one open wheel series, he's not willing to put forth any real effort to make it happen. He now wants CC to go away one way or another. If everyone really wanted one series, it probably would've happened by now.
I ask because it's obvious that Indy is taking a savage beating this year. It's mindboggling how these egotistical $$$centric owners just happily fall inline for the soup de jour served by Tony. Have you ever heard a complaint aired publicly? What, do they sign a non-disclosure agreement w/ gag order?
Insomniac
05-26-07, 03:59 PM
I ask because it's obvious that Indy is taking a savage beating this year. It's mindboggling how these egotistical $$$centric owners just happily fall inline for the soup de jour served by Tony. Have you ever heard a complaint aired publicly? What, do they sign a non-disclosure agreement w/ gag order?
What are they going to complain about? They're exactly where they want to be. Tony bucks and the Indy 500 keep the back markers happy enough.
They say what Honda pays them to say.
miatanut
05-26-07, 04:37 PM
Tony is in the process of burning Mindy to the ground. At some point, it will be too painful for the teams that matter to stay and they will move. It is also painful for them to eat crow and come back to CCWS, which helps to delay when this will happen.
Personally, I think the atmosphere is too poisoned on both sides for resolution anytime soon. If the team owners on both sides decided to get together and do a new, improved version of CART, and got the Amigos on board with it, the problem would be solved overnight.
Until it's so painful that the team owners on both sides decide to do that, AOW will continue it's slow painful slide. The only good news is that IMS is falling faster, so when things DO get straightened out, IMS won't have the whole sport by the short hairs, as it has for decades.
If there will ever be a solution to the problem it will require going around TG directly to Mari and the other members of the board of directors. Kevin and Gerry would have to buy the speedway. I don't think that will ever happen, but that is what it would take.
George
Jervis Tetch 1
05-26-07, 07:36 PM
They say what Honda pays them to say.:thumbup:
oddlycalm
05-26-07, 08:26 PM
Do IRL Team Owners Have ANY Control? In a word, no. The only thing the team owners control is whether they race in his league or enter his race, or not. Other than that it's the Idiot In Indiana dictating his whims through Brainfart, just the way he wanted it.
oc
This has nothing to do with split politics....but is every bit about the politics that led up to the split. Or, should I say, the next split. All the components are there...
miatanut
05-26-07, 10:39 PM
This has nothing to do with split politics....but is every bit about the politics that led up to the split. Or, should I say, the next split. All the components are there...
Let's hope! :thumbup:
For at least a couple decades, I have thought a whole month for one race was stupid, because for some, it was often over in the first lap. Sometimes before actually starting the first lap. A whole month wasted.
Then there's weather. A whole month for a race that can't be run in the rain. Some people won't even show up if it might rain. Other folks will get turned-off by the delay and leave. Folks watching on the tube will get bored and turn it off.
When most of the teams are running a lame series few people will buy tickets to watch while there is a competing series that lots of people pay to watch, but they run in it because of one race, and then that race is a rainout, or they get stuffed on the first lap, it's got to make some of them ask themselves "Why are we HERE?"
I hope the weather forcast is dismal, but it clears up nicely at the beginning of the race. Then there will be this permanent record of a race run in nice weather before lots of empty seats. A rain delay before the thing starts might help nicely.
Insomniac
05-26-07, 10:51 PM
Tony is in the process of burning Mindy to the ground. At some point, it will be too painful for the teams that matter to stay and they will move. It is also painful for them to eat crow and come back to CCWS, which helps to delay when this will happen.
Personally, I think the atmosphere is too poisoned on both sides for resolution anytime soon. If the team owners on both sides decided to get together and do a new, improved version of CART, and got the Amigos on board with it, the problem would be solved overnight.
Until it's so painful that the team owners on both sides decide to do that, AOW will continue it's slow painful slide. The only good news is that IMS is falling faster, so when things DO get straightened out, IMS won't have the whole sport by the short hairs, as it has for decades.
Nothing will be solved. They'd be worse off than the first split. Last time they had fans ans sponsors and TG was just starting. The next time there aren't nearly as many fans and sponsors and TG has established a series.
Insomniac
05-26-07, 10:52 PM
This has nothing to do with split politics....but is every bit about the politics that led up to the split. Or, should I say, the next split. All the components are there...
There won't be another split. The teams in the IRL have capitulated to TG. If they change their mind, they close up shop or look at another series.
Insomniac
05-26-07, 10:54 PM
Let's hope! :thumbup:
For at least a couple decades, I have thought a whole month for one race was stupid, because for some, it was often over in the first lap. Sometimes before actually starting the first lap. A whole month wasted.
Then there's weather. A whole month for a race that can't be run in the rain. Some people won't even show up if it might rain. Other folks will get turned-off by the delay and leave. Folks watching on the tube will get bored and turn it off.
When most of the teams are running a lame series few people will buy tickets to watch while there is a competing series that lots of people pay to watch, but they run in it because of one race, and then that race is a rainout, or they get stuffed on the first lap, it's got to make some of them ask themselves "Why are we HERE?"
I hope the weather forcast is dismal, but it clears up nicely at the beginning of the race. Then there will be this permanent record of a race run in nice weather before lots of empty seats. A rain delay before the thing starts might help nicely.
Two decades ago, rain wouldn't dampen Indy at all. Even if the race was postponed to Monday. It was that way until the split.
miatanut
05-27-07, 12:38 AM
Nothing will be solved. They'd be worse off than the first split. Last time they had fans ans sponsors and TG was just starting. The next time there aren't nearly as many fans and sponsors and TG has established a series.
"First split" for me would be teams leaving USAC for CART. Second spit would be a few idiots that went back to IRL. Basically the old USAC with a new name. The first split took the sport to heights never seen before (or since). The second split screwed everything up. The next split would be an attempt to recreate the first split, and I think that would bring back a lot of fans who have given up in disgust.
If most of the teams that mattered left, most of what's left is Tony teams. His ego is big enough he would just keep funding it, but then it would be clear to all but the most extreme gomers that the IRL would be a nothing series.
Then there would be a series that races before stands full of paying customers, and a series full of also-rans with even less attendance than it has now.
Game over.
With the advent of the DP01 I really believed that at least one of the big three IRL teams would have a presence in the CCWS for '07, I'm disappointed. They went to ALMS instead. It's all about Tony, and any solution the includes him is no solution.
"First split" for me would be teams leaving USAC for CART. Second spit would be a few idiots that went back to IRL. Basically the old USAC with a new name. The first split took the sport to heights never seen before (or since). The second split screwed everything up. The next split would be an attempt to recreate the first split, and I think that would bring back a lot of fans who have given up in disgust.
If most of the teams that mattered left, most of what's left is Tony teams. His ego is big enough he would just keep funding it, but then it would be clear to all but the most extreme gomers that the IRL would be a nothing series.
Then there would be a series that races before stands full of paying customers, and a series full of also-rans with even less attendance than it has now.
Game over.
Another split?
Naw, ain't gonna happen.
Penske, Ganassi and even AGR would simply move to another form of racing that pays the bills. CCWS hasn't shown where it can do that. I really doubt any of those guys really give a **** about OW racing anymore to bother with trying to recreate it all over again.
The first split was driven by team owners without interests in any other racing series other than the Champcar racing series. Not so today, Roger and Chippie have cup efforts that make their IRL operations pale in comparison. One is in ALMS, the other GrandAm. AGR is now involved in ALMS. I'd expect them to that form of racing if this whole IRL experiment fell apart.
Oh, and Tony would simply modify the IRL version again to keep cars circling the tracks. He has to have a supply of cars for his May race. As for the old CART fans coming back and filling the stands to watch another split racing series?
I doubt it.
Insomniac
05-27-07, 11:44 AM
"First split" for me would be teams leaving USAC for CART. Second spit would be a few idiots that went back to IRL. Basically the old USAC with a new name. The first split took the sport to heights never seen before (or since). The second split screwed everything up. The next split would be an attempt to recreate the first split, and I think that would bring back a lot of fans who have given up in disgust.
If most of the teams that mattered left, most of what's left is Tony teams. His ego is big enough he would just keep funding it, but then it would be clear to all but the most extreme gomers that the IRL would be a nothing series.
Then there would be a series that races before stands full of paying customers, and a series full of also-rans with even less attendance than it has now.
Game over.
Don't you realize the big piece is the Indy 500? Do you think TG would've had a chance if he didn't own IMS? In your first split, CART got Indy. In the second, TG got it while CART got everything else (basically). It wasn't enough as the viewers/fans/sponsors dropped and most of the top teams headed to the IRL, because of the Indy 500.
Insomniac
05-27-07, 11:45 AM
With the advent of the DP01 I really believed that at least one of the big three IRL teams would have a presence in the CCWS for '07, I'm disappointed. They went to ALMS instead. It's all about Tony, and any solution the includes him is no solution.
ALMS = Honda $$$ for many.
It's still a year away but splits and poisoned atmosphere aside some are predicting 5-6 CC teams/drivers headed to Mndy next season. Most often quoted is Rahal. How recently was it he said he wouldn't go? Now he eagerly discusses the opportunity. Dan Clark is there this morning. Bruno wants to win it. So do a number of others from CC. Only way to win it is to BE there and I think they'd like to go with their CC teams. All speculation of course but even though merge talk is non existent there is a lot being said about CC teams at The 500 in '08. What DOES that all mean?:rolleyes:
stroker
05-27-07, 12:50 PM
The only way I can think of for the team owners to exert any control would be to tell Tony the night before the 500 that unless he signs a deal with CC before the green flag on the next day, they're not running. I have to assume TG/IMS have seen that vulnerability and made the teams sign some sort of document prohibiting that.
If CC, at some point, can become more lucrative than the .1RL then that might have an effect. I'm not holding my breath.
All speculation of course but even though merge talk is non existent there is a lot being said about CC teams at The 500 in '08.
None of that talk is being made by the people calling the shots. The usual May whine being pushed by the press IMO.
Don't you realize the big piece is the Indy 500? Do you think TG would've had a chance if he didn't own IMS? In your first split, CART got Indy. In the second, TG got it while CART got everything else (basically). It wasn't enough as the viewers/fans/sponsors dropped and most of the top teams headed to the IRL, because of the Indy 500.
Actually, they headed to the IRL because of Honda money.
Insomniac
05-27-07, 05:13 PM
It's still a year away but splits and poisoned atmosphere aside some are predicting 5-6 CC teams/drivers headed to Mndy next season. Most often quoted is Rahal. How recently was it he said he wouldn't go? Now he eagerly discusses the opportunity. Dan Clark is there this morning. Bruno wants to win it. So do a number of others from CC. Only way to win it is to BE there and I think they'd like to go with their CC teams. All speculation of course but even though merge talk is non existent there is a lot being said about CC teams at The 500 in '08. What DOES that all mean?:rolleyes:
They help TG with virtually no shot at actually winning the race?
Insomniac
05-27-07, 05:15 PM
The only way I can think of for the team owners to exert any control would be to tell Tony the night before the 500 that unless he signs a deal with CC before the green flag on the next day, they're not running. I have to assume TG/IMS have seen that vulnerability and made the teams sign some sort of document prohibiting that.
If CC, at some point, can become more lucrative than the .1RL then that might have an effect. I'm not holding my breath.
What would that even accomplish? You force him into a deal he doesn't want? Do they really want a partner that is beyond angry? Probably wouldn't be worth the paper it was written on, not to mention he could bring a civil suit against them all for that.
Insomniac
05-27-07, 05:16 PM
Actually, they headed to the IRL because of Honda money.
OK, a mere technicality they went following the Yen. The engine manufacturer went because of Indy, it's the only thing TG and the IRL had.
miatanut
05-27-07, 09:14 PM
Don't you realize the big piece is the Indy 500? Do you think TG would've had a chance if he didn't own IMS? In your first split, CART got Indy. In the second, TG got it while CART got everything else (basically). It wasn't enough as the viewers/fans/sponsors dropped and most of the top teams headed to the IRL, because of the Indy 500.
The big piece WAS the Indy 500, but the old gray mare just ain't what she used to be. That makes it more doable now than it was in 1978.
miatanut
05-27-07, 09:22 PM
Another split?
Naw, ain't gonna happen.
Penske, Ganassi and even AGR would simply move to another form of racing that pays the bills. CCWS hasn't shown where it can do that. I really doubt any of those guys really give a **** about OW racing anymore to bother with trying to recreate it all over again.
The first split was driven by team owners without interests in any other racing series other than the Champcar racing series. Not so today, Roger and Chippie have cup efforts that make their IRL operations pale in comparison. One is in ALMS, the other GrandAm. AGR is now involved in ALMS. I'd expect them to that form of racing if this whole IRL experiment fell apart.
Oh, and Tony would simply modify the IRL version again to keep cars circling the tracks. He has to have a supply of cars for his May race. As for the old CART fans coming back and filling the stands to watch another split racing series?
I doubt it.
I think the big three to persue their other interests is actually more likely, but if they did care about open wheel, they could make things happen quickly.
If Tony remolded IRL into a series that used that modern day front engine roadster concept they had on their web page, that would be something I could actually respect. Then it WOULD be a logical progression from USAC. And CCWS could follow the path Gurney et al laid out. Then there would no longer be a "split". They would be so different the wouldn't be in competition any more. They would have completely different fan bases.
opinionated ow
05-27-07, 09:30 PM
I think the big three to persue their other interests is actually more likely, but if they did care about open wheel, they could make things happen quickly.
If Tony remolded IRL into a series that used that modern day front engine roadster concept they had on their web page, that would be something I could actually respect. Then it WOULD be a logical progression from USAC. And CCWS could follow the path Gurney et al laid out. Then there would no longer be a "split". They would be so different the wouldn't be in competition any more. They would have completely different fan bases.
please dont let that happen....i have nightmares of actually becoming an irl fan
Hard Driver
05-28-07, 12:27 AM
They say what Honda pays them to say.
The only chance for unification is when Honda stops paying.
The only chance for unification is when Honda stops paying.
I don't think that would do it: Tony would run sprints if the alternative was admitting a mistake. I think Honda is going to pay for some of our guys and some of their guys, to run the 500 next year. I'm interested in what else Honda is going to pay for. I'm thinking there's got to be more in it for GF and KK than one big check for one race, but I could be wrong.
jonovision_man
05-28-07, 09:27 AM
I recall a recent IRL race where two of the power brokers (Penske and Ganassi) appeared on-screen with the specific purpose of telling the IRL audience that there needed to be one open wheel series. It was odd....kinda like POW's marched in front of the TV cameras for enemy propaganda. It was like they were secretly saying "get us the **** out of here".
I ask the question: Do IRL Team Owners Have ANY Control? Do they have a separate "owners group" or is it forbidden in the IRL charter to form an owners group (for fear there'd be an uprising against the leadership)?
I ask because the IRL is a french fry short from being a happy meal of disgruntled owners NOT HAPPY with the direction of the IRL (and directly the Indy 500). Even the "tow the line" IRL owners MUST be feeling the heat. Answers anyone?
They used to have a separate group. It was called "CART", and the team owners had a lot more power than they do now.
Even back then they didn't have control over TG, so with even less clout now I doubt they'd be able to knock him from his perch and force a single series...
jono
jonovision_man
05-28-07, 09:28 AM
The only chance for unification is when Honda stops paying.
Honda gets paid for engines, it doesn't pay.
Granted, they do bring some sponsorship money, but I don't think Honda exitting would be an insurmountable challenge for the IRL... they're already buying engines, they'd just buy from someone else.
jono
Good point. Penske, Ganassi, AGR and Rahal left champ Car so they could write Honda checks. :rolleyes:
jonovision_man
05-28-07, 11:06 AM
Good point. Penske, Ganassi, AGR and Rahal left champ Car so they could write Honda checks. :rolleyes:
When they left, Honda was battling Toyota, and they all thought they could deal Champ Car the final blow... so no doubt, the money was flowing.
Now? Why would Honda keep spending money on the teams? There's no manufacturer battle, Honda wins every race.
jono
Insomniac
05-28-07, 11:39 AM
The big piece WAS the Indy 500, but the old gray mare just ain't what she used to be. That makes it more doable now than it was in 1978.
When the stands are empty, the race doesn't draw ratings orders of magnitude over the rest and the purse is all but gone, then it's just another race. Still have a ways to go for that to happen.
Now? Why would Honda keep spending money on the teams? There's no manufacturer battle, Honda wins every race.
jono
So you think Cheap is reaching into his pocket?
Why would Honda keep spending money on the teams?
Couple of possibiities:
1. They are contractually obligated to do so, and it'll stop soon.
2. Subsidizing IRL teams helps sells Accords and Civics. I doubt this, but Honda might believe it.
3. They want to keep the teams around for Plan B to "Unification." That's my bet. I don't know what Plan B is, but if it exists, we should find out what it is soon.
IMO, the IRL owners will exert their power when Honda bails. Until then, the wealthier teams will keep sucking that yen-teat. It is not unlike the situation in CART. They bolted when the yen dried up.
IF Honda bails and IF there is not another manufacturer in line, things could get interesting. At that point, Tony could be forced into a compromise, or, if he has retained any decent advisors (something he is not know for) he could start from scratch with an IRL that should have been in 1997 -- a grassroots series with an American style of racing that rewards innovation and resets the clock on open wheel evolution.
The truth is that there is more room out there for other ways to do things, and to do them successfully, but Tony failed by not differentiating the IRL sufficiently from CART. If he is not willing to do that, he should shut down the League and let the big boys play at the Speedway.
jonovision_man
05-28-07, 12:34 PM
Couple of possibiities:
1. They are contractually obligated to do so, and it'll stop soon.
2. Subsidizing IRL teams helps sells Accords and Civics. I doubt this, but Honda might believe it.
3. They want to keep the teams around for Plan B to "Unification." That's my bet. I don't know what Plan B is, but if it exists, we should find out what it is soon.
Reasonable possibilities... but I think the more likely one is that TG is the one doing the real subsidizing. Remember when Letterman was interviewing ... oh crap I forget who ... but anyway the subject of IRL management came up, and he said (paraphrasing) "we all have an issue with management... but we'll take his money!"
I think Honda pays for sponsorship opportunities where they make some sense, they support the league to a much smaller degree than they once did, and TG picks up the rest.
jono
Honda gets paid for engines, it doesn't pay.
Granted, they do bring some sponsorship money, but I don't think Honda exitting would be an insurmountable challenge for the IRL... they're already buying engines, they'd just buy from someone else.
jono
Some sponsorship money? I don't believe that sponsors are supporting the big teams based on sponsorship value and I don't believe those guys are would be racing there on their own dime.
Even without manufacturer competition Honda has an interest in keeping the major teams in their camp.
jonovision_man
05-28-07, 12:37 PM
I found what I was talking about (thanks JoeBob!). It was Letterman interviewing Paul Newman.
http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showpost.php?p=102793&postcount=8
Dave: Your team is also, this year, racing at the Indianapolis 500.
Paul: Yup.
Dave: And, will you be present?
Paul: At the race? Probably not. I have a problem with the management - but I guess that's uh... I mean, its fairly well know.
Dave (laughing): Everyone has a problem with the management, Paul. But we're still gonna take his money!
jono
miatanut
05-28-07, 04:10 PM
please dont let that happen....i have nightmares of actually becoming an irl fan
IRL would just, in effect, become the top level of asphalt sprint car. You like dirt better anyway. No?
oddlycalm
05-28-07, 05:22 PM
This has nothing to do with split politics....but is every bit about the politics that led up to the split. Or, should I say, the next split. All the components are there... Sorry Chief, but from where I sit all the components are not there. Sadly, there is no Dan Gurney figure today, someone with real integrity who is broadly respected as not only a driver of vast experience but also a constructor and team owner. CART, FOCO and the like all happened in an era when safety was being completely ignored and there was no money going to the team owners. Today the safety situation is completely changed and one way or another the larger teams are receiving plenty of money. I would argue that the EARL still has serious car related safety issues but the gratuitous track and medical team issues are substantially resolved.
Aside from that people know who they are dealing with. TG is a delusional idiot with whom a normal business discussion cannot exist. The quotes from the Newman appearance on the Letterman show are simply the polite public version of what is said every day by the teams owners. TG is a major turd and a fool, but it's his track, his league and those that want to race their and want some of his money are perfectly willing to suck it up and go forward. They don't respect him but they will show up and run.
That's their choice, mine is not to show up, not to watch and not to have anything to do with those that support his jaundiced fiefdom.
oc
opinionated ow
05-28-07, 08:36 PM
IRL would just, in effect, become the top level of asphalt sprint car. You like dirt better anyway. No?
i like dirt better yes, but I like all openwheel short track racing.
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