McLaren investigated for team orders at Monaco! [Archive]

Insomniac

05-28-07, 11:36 AM

What garbage. :thumdown:

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39420

I'm against "team orders" that involve changing positions, like Ferrari were doing back in the Schuey dominance days.

But that isn't what this was, there's nothing wrong with instructing your drivers to hold their positions. Especially at a place like Monaco, where crashing on an overtaking manouver is quite likely!

jono

Seems like you want to give McLaren a pass. If Hamilton was faster, they were basically telling him not to pass. Sure, technically nothing changed, but it's possible it could've if they didn't tell him to quit trying. I'm wondering why he didn't know better before they had to tell him twice. You say one thing publicly about no team orders, and it's even more clear now that there are. I thought there was earlier in the season when they pulled Hamilton in early despite him leading, and this just confirms it. Alonso #1, Hamilton #2. No different than Ferrari with Schumacher.

Edit: This is the article (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=6&id=2884740) that I read, which is what elicited the response above.

Ankf00

05-28-07, 12:06 PM

hamilton was the championship leader, logic would dictate that mclaren would tell alonso to pull over.

Insomniac

05-28-07, 12:22 PM

hamilton was the championship leader, logic would dictate that mclaren would tell alonso to pull over.

Not by Ferrari logic. ;)

jonovision_man

05-28-07, 12:44 PM

Seems like you want to give McLaren a pass.

Yes.

If Hamilton was faster, they were basically telling him not to pass. Sure, technically nothing changed, but it's possible it could've if they didn't tell him to quit trying.

It's equally possible Alonso would have answered Hamilton's lap times.

It's also very possible that when pushing their nuts off racing each other, they could have kissed a barrier and kissed a dominant 1-2 finish good-bye.

I have no issue at all with what Ron Dennis did.

I'm wondering why he didn't know better before they had to tell him twice. You say one thing publicly about no team orders, and it's even more clear now that there are. I thought there was earlier in the season when they pulled Hamilton in early despite him leading, and this just confirms it. Alonso #1, Hamilton #2. No different than Ferrari with Schumacher.

Edit: This is the article (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=6&id=2884740) that I read, which is what elicited the response above.

The day that Hamilton pulls aside and lets Alonso by, that day it's the same as Ferrari with Schumacher.

Ron Dennis loves Hamilton, the guy was leading the championship (NOT Alonso) so if any team order was coming it would have been in Hamilton's favour... this was preservation of a great result, pure and simple.

jono

Insomniac

05-28-07, 02:34 PM

It's equally possible Alonso would have answered Hamilton's lap times.

It's also very possible that when pushing their nuts off racing each other, they could have kissed a barrier and kissed a dominant 1-2 finish good-bye.

I have no issue at all with what Ron Dennis did.

The day that Hamilton pulls aside and lets Alonso by, that day it's the same as Ferrari with Schumacher.

Ron Dennis loves Hamilton, the guy was leading the championship (NOT Alonso) so if any team order was coming it would have been in Hamilton's favour... this was preservation of a great result, pure and simple.

Alonso wasn't matching Hamilton's laps when he was on his rear wing towards the end of the race. Do you think there was a high likelihood he would have found it between then and the end of the race? I'd expect the likelihood that Hamilton would be able to keep on his rear wing was higher.

It is certainly possible that Hamilton pushing would've resulted in one or both cars to be knocked out of the race, but we'll never know since he was ordered to stop pushing Alonso.

Ron Dennis may love Hamilton, but Alonso is getting the Schumacher treatment. Just as Ferrari adjusted to the team order ban, McLaren has. Tinker with fuel strategy here, bring the guy in early there and Alonso has the advantage even when Hamilton is leading. Sure, Dennis didn't come over the radio and tell Hamilton to pull over for Alonso, but he wasn't doing everything possible to get Hamilton the win if Alonso could get it. The only reason there is an investigation is they didn't sit Hamilton down beforehand and tell him that's how it is. Now he knows his place on the team.

jonovision_man

05-28-07, 05:46 PM

It is certainly possible that Hamilton pushing would've resulted in one or both cars to be knocked out of the race, but we'll never know since he was ordered to stop pushing Alonso.

This happens every day in motorsport... it happens in ChampCar, the IRL, F1, every time there are teammates staring a 1-2 finish in the face the team owners says "we have it in the bag so don't screw it up boys!".

It's simply not a team order in the way that Rubens pulling over for Schuey is.

And above and beyond that, this is Monaco... who can forget DC stuck behind Bernoldi for at least a dozen laps with a car 2-3s faster? Being a few tenths quicker is just not enough, even if Hamilton was a few tenths faster, which from the laptimes I was watching on timing and scoring isn't at all established... Alonso had an answer for almost every quick lap Hamilton dished out.

Ron Dennis did 100% the right thing, and honestly I've seen nothing to suggest that he'd have done anything differently if Hamilton had been leading and Alonso trailing.

Ron Dennis may love Hamilton, but Alonso is getting the Schumacher treatment. Just as Ferrari adjusted to the team order ban, McLaren has. Tinker with fuel strategy here, bring the guy in early there and Alonso has the advantage even when Hamilton is leading. Sure, Dennis didn't come over the radio and tell Hamilton to pull over for Alonso, but he wasn't doing everything possible to get Hamilton the win if Alonso could get it. The only reason there is an investigation is they didn't sit Hamilton down beforehand and tell him that's how it is. Now he knows his place on the team.

Sorry, don't buy it. Hamilton's strategy didn't work out, but Dennis didn't coerce it, it just worked out that way. Hamilton couldn't match Alonso's pace in the first stint, Alonso pulled out a gap and the rest is history.

jono

oddlycalm

05-28-07, 06:09 PM

Alonso pulled out a gap and the rest is history. Agreed, the chances Hamilton would have been able to get around Alonso are close to zero, but trying to do so might have taken both cars out of the race. When you have a one-two locked in short of mechanical failure or driver idiocy the tendency is to warn the drivers against idiocy.

The fine line may be that warning against rash moves is fine while telling them to hold position is not. Guess we'll know soon.

Regardless, the UK press is up to the usual. :gomer:

oc

Insomniac

05-28-07, 06:37 PM

This happens every day in motorsport... it happens in ChampCar, the IRL, F1, every time there are teammates staring a 1-2 finish in the face the team owners says "we have it in the bag so don't screw it up boys!".

It's simply not a team order in the way that Rubens pulling over for Schuey is.

And above and beyond that, this is Monaco... who can forget DC stuck behind Bernoldi for at least a dozen laps with a car 2-3s faster? Being a few tenths quicker is just not enough, even if Hamilton was a few tenths faster, which from the laptimes I was watching on timing and scoring isn't at all established... Alonso had an answer for almost every quick lap Hamilton dished out.

Ron Dennis did 100% the right thing, and honestly I've seen nothing to suggest that he'd have done anything differently if Hamilton had been leading and Alonso trailing.

Sorry, don't buy it. Hamilton's strategy didn't work out, but Dennis didn't coerce it, it just worked out that way. Hamilton couldn't match Alonso's pace in the first stint, Alonso pulled out a gap and the rest is history.

There are many teams that will let their team mates race each other. They know they should race clean and avoid taking each other out. If you want to accept it, that's fine. I disagree that it's nothing like Ferrari though. They are team orders to control the outcome of where each member of the team finishes. Not as blatant as pulling over, but are team orders none the less.

I was not talking about Hamilton's strategy at Monaco, I mentioned it at the time, and in my opinion it's even more ominous now. I was talking about the Malaysian Grand Prix. Alonso pits on Lap 18, Hamilton takes the lead and pits on Lap 20. Then Hamilton pits on Lap 38 and Alonso on Lap 40. Was that in Hamilton's best interest? Why didn't he make it 2 laps further than Alonso again? Hamilton comes out behind Alonso and they finish 1-2. I'm sure you'll say that was the best strategy that Ron Dennis had and it worked perfectly since they finished 1-2.

And if you want to talk about Monaco, Hamilton qualified slower than Alonso. Did he have more fuel on board? Seemed like it from the stops. Lap 26 for Alonso and Lap 29 for Hamilton. Then Lap 51 for Alonso and Lap 53 for Hamilton. Only 2 more laps that time. You could maybe say Hamilton had to get out quickly on his first stop since Massa was close, but Massa also pitted on lap 26 so they had the time to put more fuel in if they wanted.

Alonso is #1, Hamilton is #2. Which is fine if that's how they want to run the team, but Ron Dennis shouldn't claim there are no team orders at McLaren and it's no different than Schumacher at Ferrari. At least everyone knew that's how it was at Ferrari.

Alonso did make a huge gap in the first stint, but it wasn't over there. Hamilton was on him in the last stint.

STD

05-28-07, 06:50 PM

Regardless, the UK press is up to the usual. :gomer:

oc

Yep

jonovision_man

05-28-07, 07:00 PM

There are many teams that will let their team mates race each other. They know they should race clean and avoid taking each other out. If you want to accept it, that's fine. I disagree that it's nothing like Ferrari though. They are team orders to control the outcome of where each member of the team finishes. Not as blatant as pulling over, but are team orders none the less.

Call it what you want, I think it's well within the spirit of the rules and completely acceptable in racing.

I was not talking about Hamilton's strategy at Monaco, I mentioned it at the time, and in my opinion it's even more ominous now. I was talking about the Malaysian Grand Prix. Alonso pits on Lap 18, Hamilton takes the lead and pits on Lap 20. Then Hamilton pits on Lap 38 and Alonso on Lap 40. Was that in Hamilton's best interest? Why didn't he make it 2 laps further than Alonso again? Hamilton comes out behind Alonso and they finish 1-2. I'm sure you'll say that was the best strategy that Ron Dennis had and it worked perfectly since they finished 1-2.

For every time that going a little lighter in qualifying works out, there is a time that it doesn't. There's a penalty to be paid - when Alonso pitted at lap 18, he had to do two laps on heavy fuel and cold tires while Hamilton was on an empty tank.

Hamilton didn't get it done. It happens.

And if you want to talk about Monaco, Hamilton qualified slower than Alonso. Did he have more fuel on board? Seemed like it from the stops. Lap 26 for Alonso and Lap 29 for Hamilton. Then Lap 51 for Alonso and Lap 53 for Hamilton. Only 2 more laps that time. You could maybe say Hamilton had to get out quickly on his first stop since Massa was close, but Massa also pitted on lap 26 so they had the time to put more fuel in if they wanted.

... assuming they knew exactly what Massa was doing...

Alonso is #1, Hamilton is #2.

Don't see it.

Which is fine if that's how they want to run the team, but Ron Dennis shouldn't claim there are no team orders at McLaren and it's no different than Schumacher at Ferrari. At least everyone knew that's how it was at Ferrari.

Alonso did make a huge gap in the first stint, but it wasn't over there. Hamilton was on him in the last stint.

Too little, too late.

jono

Insomniac

05-28-07, 08:50 PM

Call it what you want, I think it's well within the spirit of the rules and completely acceptable in racing.

Okay, so to be clear. Your definition of team orders is telling the driver in front to move over for the one in the back on track, and that's it?

For every time that going a little lighter in qualifying works out, there is a time that it doesn't. There's a penalty to be paid - when Alonso pitted at lap 18, he had to do two laps on heavy fuel and cold tires while Hamilton was on an empty tank.

Hamilton didn't get it done. It happens.

You are completely missing my point. Hamilton did get it done. He was in front of Alonso until he pit two laps later. Then mysteriously on the next round of pit stops, Alonso was able to go 4 laps further on that stint than Hamilton. Who made the brilliant decision to either underfill Hamilton or bring him in early?

... assuming they knew exactly what Massa was doing...

Let's see. I'm almost positive that McLaren knew exactly what Massa was doing when he pitted on Lap 26.

Don't see it.

You must believe Ron Dennis when he says there are no team orders at McLaren as well.

Too little, too late.

Says you.

Dr. Corkski

05-28-07, 09:19 PM

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2007/05/28/dennis_we_decided_alonso_would_win/

"However there is some disappointment because of the different strategies we needed to follow to cope with a potential deployment of the Safety Car which has happened four times in the last five years. Consequently you virtually have to decide in advance which one of the team's two drivers will claim the victory."

"Once the first round of pitstops had taken place we reverted Lewis from a one-stop strategy to the faster two-stop strategy and at the same time slowed both cars down to conserve the brakes. As a team we would like to race but this circuit requires a disciplined approach and as a result we can leave Monte Carlo with the maximum amount of points," Dennis added.
Once again leave it to wRONg to come out looking like a hypocritical jackass even when his two cars dominate a race. :laugh:

jonovision_man

05-28-07, 09:29 PM

Okay, so to be clear. Your definition of team orders is telling the driver in front to move over for the one in the back on track, and that's it?

That's the only type of "team order" I have a problem with.

You are completely missing my point. Hamilton did get it done. He was in front of Alonso until he pit two laps later. Then mysteriously on the next round of pit stops, Alonso was able to go 4 laps further on that stint than Hamilton. Who made the brilliant decision to either underfill Hamilton or bring him in early?

I don't recall the exact circumstances from that race to I can't speculate, but race strategies aren't always straightforward and they don't always get it right. Every time Hamilton or his team get it wrong it sounds like we'll be hearing about how Alonso is being favoured...

You must believe Ron Dennis when he says there are no team orders at McLaren as well.

I believe that Ron has no reason to favour Alonso over Hamilton at this point in the season. Hamilton was leading the championship, he's matching Alonso's pace more often than not, and he has yet to reach his potential. Ron has coddled the kid for years, and now we're supposed to believe he's sabotaging his races? Meh.

I was pulling for Hamilton in Monaco, I watched the live timing and scoring, and he just didn't have it until it was too late. It happens.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I simply think that the British press are allowing their imaginations to run wild...

jono

Cam

05-28-07, 10:30 PM

Once again Cork's agenda is showing... :rolleyes: There is no issue here. If the FIA does anything here to interfere with the result of this race it would be a travesty to the tradition that is Monaco. It, for all it's flaws, is the crown jewel in the F1 season and outshines every other motorsports event that was held on this particular weekend. :thumbup:

Dr. Corkski

05-28-07, 10:55 PM

Who said anything about the results? :laugh:

This is the same wRONg Dennis that used the British press to bash Ferrari for doing the same exact thing that his team did in 1991 and 1998? If his dumbass would have shut up no one would have even noticed. :rofl:

Speaking of agendas, it's nice to finally see all the McLaren fanboys back now that they are winning again. F1 really missed all the whining. :tony:

Cam

05-29-07, 12:59 AM

Like to detail what happened in 91 is hypocritical fanboi? 98 was a personal deal between MH and DC themselves... NOTHING to do with Ron and or engineers... Nice try but that slam on RD is highly flawed. Your agenda is showing again... Are you really Ferrarigoob with another handle? :shakehead

And I have never left moron... :rolleyes:

Dr. Corkski

05-29-07, 02:07 AM

Suzuka 91, Senna pulls over at the final corner to let Berger win, as reward for being his lapdog the last 2 years. Oh wait, the great noble Ron Dennis would never stand for that #1 and #2 driver stuff, so make that a reward for not being a pissy Frenchman.

Oh I am sure wRONg had absolutely no knowledge of the deal in 98. I mean, he is not exactly the type to run a tight ship or anything. :laugh:

Save the namecalling for Smackforum. :gomer:

Cam

05-29-07, 07:54 AM

Oh yeah, I am really sure Senna would have pulled over on team orders, which is the issue here BTW. :rolleyes: Better cover up there cork. Your ass is showing.

Insomniac

05-29-07, 08:51 AM

I don't recall the exact circumstances from that race to I can't speculate, but race strategies aren't always straightforward and they don't always get it right. Every time Hamilton or his team get it wrong it sounds like we'll be hearing about how Alonso is being favoured...

Does that race strategy even make sense to you? Just logically, does it make sense to bring a guy in early when he's at the front? This is a little further off than getting it wrong. Picking the wrong tires or the wrong number of stops, that's getting it wrong. That seems like a more atypical strategy to me and I pointed it out after that race that it seemed quite odd, not wrong.

I believe that Ron has no reason to favour Alonso over Hamilton at this point in the season. Hamilton was leading the championship, he's matching Alonso's pace more often than not, and he has yet to reach his potential. Ron has coddled the kid for years, and now we're supposed to believe he's sabotaging his races? Meh.

I was pulling for Hamilton in Monaco, I watched the live timing and scoring, and he just didn't have it until it was too late. It happens.

We'll have to agree to disagree, I simply think that the British press are allowing their imaginations to run wild...

Ron just said that Hamilton was on a 1-Stop and Alonso on a 2-Stop. So McLaren hedged their strategies, and we now know why Hamilton had nothing for Alonso in the first stint. He had something in the third stint despite being told to conserve his brakes and slow down. Then was told again to stop pressuring Alonso. It's a shame he didn't get the chance. Dennis was definitely putting a 1-2 finish ahead of letting the faster/better car win. And from the driver's own mouth, he's the #2 driver.

emjaya

05-29-07, 09:14 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n8-QhXnuLgk

Ron learned the hard way about team-mates battling for the lead.:gomer:

DagoFast

05-29-07, 10:08 AM

Ah, the politics of F1.

I think Ron was just trying to play mind games with the rest of the grid by saying they "slowed down" after the first round of stops and yet still lapped up to Massa in 3rd.

Now you have the Hamilton lovers up in arms, the McLaren haters riled up, the wanks that are the hapless FIA roused from their usual stupor and the Brit press gleefully running with all of it.

After watching the race it was obvious neither McLaren driver was ever stroking it. The times they were running will prove that. The only time Hamilton even had a sniff after lap 1 was after the final stop when Alonso went to the soft compound and his tires grained a few laps in to the run. After the tires came back in, he was gone, just like in every other stint.

Tempest in a teapot. The whole shebang should just blow over. If it dosen't, it just proves two things: The FIA have their heads up their arses and Ron Dennis isn't nearly as smart as he thinks he is. (Exhibit A: Hiring Andretti, Mike. Montoya, Juan Pablo. Couthard, David.)

jonovision_man

05-29-07, 10:20 AM

Does that race strategy even make sense to you? Just logically, does it make sense to bring a guy in early when he's at the front? This is a little further off than getting it wrong.

It makes sense if he's almost out of fuel. :p How do you know it was "early" as opposed to scheduled?

Ron just said that Hamilton was on a 1-Stop and Alonso on a 2-Stop. So McLaren hedged their strategies, and we now know why Hamilton had nothing for Alonso in the first stint. He had something in the third stint despite being told to conserve his brakes and slow down. Then was told again to stop pressuring Alonso. It's a shame he didn't get the chance. Dennis was definitely putting a 1-2 finish ahead of letting the faster/better car win. And from the driver's own mouth, he's the #2 driver.

Heding their strategies does not a violation of the rules make. And if there had been a safety car - which in Monaco is quite likely - Hamilton would have benefited and won, and we'd all be talking about how brilliant that strategy was.

And from the driver's own mouth, he's the #2 driver.

A drive who feels hard done by? Really? ;)

Back to the "team orders", Jackie Stewart:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59265

"I saw nothing wrong with what occurred"

...

"The Schumacher-Barrichello case was blatant. He reduced his speed by maybe 30 or 40mph to have Schumacher pass him before the finishing line," said Stewart.

"But it's a very difficult thing to start telling team owners that if you are running first and second that you should keep driving your drivers to the absolute limit of their ability.

"What if he (Hamilton) had tried a little bit too hard in these last laps in Monaco and slid off the race track, hit a barrier and taken the McLaren out of the race?" he added.

You got it Jackie! :+ Entirely different from swapping positions, this is straight and normal racing.

jono

Ankf00

05-29-07, 10:40 AM

If this was the same as Ferrari, Hamilton would not have any finishes above Alonso so far and he wouldn't have been the championship leader coming into the race.

Dr. Corkski

05-29-07, 11:00 AM

If this was the same as Ferrari, Hamilton would not have any finishes above Alonso so far and he wouldn't have been the championship leader coming into the race.Even wRONg Dennis is not that stupid. :laugh:

The 2 times Alonso has finished behind Hamilton, he was too far behind for McLaren to not make it obvious. Everytime it has been close, Hamilton has gotten shafted with the pit strategy. Even there was nothing wrong with that until Uncle wRONg started to bitch about it a few years ago. :rofl:

Ankf00

05-29-07, 11:14 AM

you start the season making jokes about ron fellating lewis, but now ron is sabotaging lewis.

nice change in tack.

Dr. Corkski

05-29-07, 11:17 AM

you start the season making jokes about ron fellating lewis, but now ron is sabotaging lewis.

nice change in tack.The press was. Still is. Hamilton isn't wRONg's type, he is only into Finnish boys.

jonovision_man

05-29-07, 12:51 PM

The press was. Still is. Hamilton isn't wRONg's type, he is only into Finnish boys.

Alonso's Finnish? :p

Ron is weird about drivers, but from where I sit it's Hammy that's giving him the tingles.

jono

Insomniac

05-29-07, 07:51 PM

It makes sense if he's almost out of fuel. :p How do you know it was "early" as opposed to scheduled?

Yeah, I suppose, but why is he running out of fuel! :)

Heding their strategies does not a violation of the rules make. And if there had been a safety car - which in Monaco is quite likely - Hamilton would have benefited and won, and we'd all be talking about how brilliant that strategy was.

I wasn't saying that strategy was aginst the rules. Just that the "fast" strategy was given to Alonso and the "if there is a safety car" one was given to Hamilton. Which at least for this race meant Alonso #1 and Hamilton #2, in my eyes.

A drive who feels hard done by? Really? ;)

Back to the "team orders", Jackie Stewart:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59265

You got it Jackie! :+ Entirely different from swapping positions, this is straight and normal racing.

I don't disagree. I don't know what the exact rule language is, but team orders are team orders. Some are more blatant on track, and maybe they should clarify which ones are banned. I just feel like this is the top level of the sport, they should be racing each other, even if they're on the same team. They should be perfectly capable of racing cleanly, they're supposed to be the best drivers in the world.

Audi_A4

05-30-07, 09:48 AM

Autosport.com and itv-f1.com are reporting that the FIA has cleared McLaren of any wrongdoing after reviewing the radio traffic between team and drivers.

jonovision_man

05-30-07, 10:16 AM

I wasn't saying that strategy was aginst the rules. Just that the "fast" strategy was given to Alonso and the "if there is a safety car" one was given to Hamilton. Which at least for this race meant Alonso #1 and Hamilton #2, in my eyes.

I have no idea how they decided who got what strategy. Maybe they flipped a coin. :) I'm not sure the "if there is a safety car" strategy was neccessarily worse, there is a pretty strong chance of a safety car at Monaco.

I don't disagree. I don't know what the exact rule language is, but team orders are team orders. Some are more blatant on track, and maybe they should clarify which ones are banned.

I would like them to clarify what is on and what isn't as well, the wording of the rule was always unclear.

"Team orders which interfere with a race result are prohibited."

That is the rule. So what does "interfere" mean? Seems like ordering your driver not to pass his teammate would count as interefering. But I don't think that they really wanted to force teammates to kick each other around the block either.

I just feel like this is the top level of the sport, they should be racing each other, even if they're on the same team. They should be perfectly capable of racing cleanly, they're supposed to be the best drivers in the world.

I would like it if they raced each other, that's something I always appreciated with Williams... but it did bite them, some would even say it's cost them championships.

But if they don't because they want to preserve a great result rather than risk it? That's OK in my book. It's a team sport too, not just an individual one, that's why they have a constructor's championship.

jono

jonovision_man

05-30-07, 10:19 AM

Just reading over the FIA decision... it clarifies a lot actually:

http://www.itv-f1.com/News_Article.aspx?PO_ID=39437

“Had the car in front of Hamilton not been his team-mate, McLaren might (probably would) have decided to risk the safety car and let Hamilton run for as long as his fuel load allowed in the hope that he would come out of the pits in the lead after one of his pit stops,” the statement said.

“There is, however, no obligation on them to take this risk in order to overtake their own car.

...

“It is standard procedure for a team to tell its drivers to slow down when they have a substantial lead,” the statement said.

“This is in order to minimise the risk of technical or other problems.

“It is also standard practice and entirely reasonable to ask the drivers not to put each other at risk.

cameraman

05-30-07, 12:31 PM

Huh. Common sense from the FIA.

Who would have thought...

Insomniac

05-30-07, 02:29 PM

I have no idea how they decided who got what strategy. Maybe they flipped a coin. :) I'm not sure the "if there is a safety car" strategy was neccessarily worse, there is a pretty strong chance of a safety car at Monaco.

Me either, but if I got to pick, I'd take the "fast" one. BTW--An interesting aside in all this, Hamilton qualified pretty damn fast for the amount of fuel he had on board. Massa didn't even have a chance after Hamilton went straight behind Alonso. And probably not even then.

Edit: Ignore that, they said it was only 5 laps more. Doesn't seem like that much more (and one less stop though, I would've guessed 10+ laps more).

I would like it if they raced each other, that's something I always appreciated with Williams... but it did bite them, some would even say it's cost them championships.

But if they don't because they want to preserve a great result rather than risk it? That's OK in my book. It's a team sport too, not just an individual one, that's why they have a constructor's championship.

I'm glad they have clarified what they mean by team orders now. I'd prefer them to race like PT, but oh well. :) 100s of $millions at stake/invested, this is what you get.