View Full Version : Plain Dealer Says...
Cleveland gate 151,400 over 3 days, 65,000+ on Sunday, up 27% over last year. All good I suppose. I guess Cleveland stays.:thumbup: TV overnights had Corn Fest at 1.2 and CC at 1.7. :) Oh, and 36,000 at Etho Bowl?
nissan gtp
06-25-07, 05:22 PM
... TV overnights had Corn Fest at 1.2 and CC at 1.7. :) ...
damn :eek:
Joelski
06-25-07, 05:40 PM
Yep, just in time to go hide on ESPN. :flame:
Don Quixote
06-25-07, 05:44 PM
No way they pulled a 1.7. I wish, but no way. :saywhat:
edit: Maybe the 1.7 is for the Cleveland area?
Sean O'Gorman
06-25-07, 06:02 PM
Not to sound like Wilke or indycool, but honestly, how do they pull this **** off? They are saying that 65,000 were there on race day, but only 80,000 for all three days in 2004, and yet they have the same six small bleachers? Bush league. :thumdown:
jonovision_man
06-25-07, 06:04 PM
No way they pulled a 1.7. I wish, but no way. :saywhat:
edit: Maybe the 1.7 is for the Cleveland area?
Wilke's "reliable source" says:
Iowa overnite was a 1.2/3 share on ABC.
Cleveland overnite .7/2 share on CBS.
Given that NASCAR was really late and on a road course, I wouldn't be surprised if they got a bump from NASCAR oval fans.
Still, disappointing as usual.
jono
Insomniac
06-25-07, 06:19 PM
Not to sound like Wilke or indycool, but honestly, how do they pull this **** off? They are saying that 65,000 were there on race day, but only 80,000 for all three days in 2004, and yet they have the same six small bleachers? Bush league. :thumdown:
I thought they added some grand stands back in that time (2005-2006)?
TKGAngel
06-25-07, 06:29 PM
Not to sound like Wilke or indycool, but honestly, how do they pull this **** off? They are saying that 65,000 were there on race day, but only 80,000 for all three days in 2004, and yet they have the same six small bleachers? Bush league. :thumdown:
Were you even at the track this weekend? Grandstands on race day were filled, and there were plenty of people milling around behind the stands during the race. That doesn't include the people watching the race from inside the pits.
JMO, but I would rather have 6 filled grandstands than 9 half filled ones. Your mileage may vary.
Sean O'Gorman
06-25-07, 06:34 PM
Were you even at the track this weekend? Grandstands on race day were filled, and there were plenty of people milling around behind the stands during the race. That doesn't include the people watching the race from inside the pits.
JMO, but I would rather have 6 filled grandstands than 9 half filled ones. Your mileage may vary.
Do the 6 full grandstands even equal half capacity at Jacobs Field? Obviously I'd rather see the most amount of fans possible, but there is no way in hell these numbers aren't being made up.
Not to sound like Wilke or indycool, but honestly, how do they pull this **** off? They are saying that 65,000 were there on race day, but only 80,000 for all three days in 2004, and yet they have the same six small bleachers? Bush league. :thumdown:
They switched from lettering the stands to numbering them to make it easier on the seat counters.
There were a lot of folks there on Sunday. Definitely more than in recent years.
TKGAngel
06-25-07, 06:39 PM
Do the 6 full grandstands even equal half capacity at Jacobs Field? Obviously I'd rather see the most amount of fans possible, but there is no way in hell these numbers aren't being made up.
Considering that when you entered the gate, your ticket was ripped and a stub left behind, I would think a simple count of ticket stubs would generate a fairly accurate attendance number.
Sean O'Gorman
06-25-07, 06:44 PM
They switched from lettering the stands to numbering them to make it easier on the seat counters.
There were a lot of folks there on Sunday. Definitely more than in recent years.
I don't doubt that, but the numbers still don't make sense. That being said, I would expect a huge improvement over 2004, the race was on a Saturday, and IIRC, there weren't many people there on Thursday and Friday (unlike the year under the lights).
Considering that when you entered the gate, your ticket was ripped and a stub left behind, I would think a simple count of ticket stubs would generate a fairly accurate attendance number.
They must've counted pretty damn fast!
Sounds like the deal of free Cleveburgh tic with a USGP stub is working...good idea. :thumbup:
Yep, 1.7 in Columbus Ohio, a hotbed of CC fanatics! 0.7 in the rest of creation.
It's like that Seinfeld episode. Do the opposite of what the OC marketing experts think and you'll be successful every time.
Andrew Longman
06-26-07, 08:17 AM
FWIW there are eight grandstands at Cleveland.
I haven't a clue how they count - but everyone needed a ticket. We needed general admission tickets for the 3yo and 6yo, though they didn't charge us for them. They did actually print out tickets for each day.
We know that numbers don't lie. ;)
Friday looked about the same as previous years.
On Saturday, the grounds seemed much more crowded, but far fewer in the stands.
Same for Sunday - with the exception of first thing AM, the grounds were packed all day: before, during, and after the race. That said, it seemed like there were fewer in the stands. We were in Grandstand 2 Row 2 and we had plenty of room. We moved from Row 3 to Row 2 when we picked up the extra tickets and our old seats were open.
Nothing scientific, just my observations.
Also, can we not lose our heads over a hat? :mad: My 6yo daughter nearly got trampled during the "hat dance" after the Atlantics race. It must have been pretty obvious because Raphael Matos then pointed her out and made sure she got a Mazdaspeed hat. He has a new fan. :thumbup:
It's like that Seinfeld episode. Do the opposite of what the OC marketing experts think and you'll be successful every time.
that .7 belongs in the television HoF, GOSH. :gomer:
that .7 belongs in the television HoF, GOSH. :gomer:
Tell me how to fix it, and let's see what happens when Champ Car does the opposite.
Sean O'Gorman
06-26-07, 03:52 PM
Tell me how to fix it, and let's see what happens when Champ Car does the opposite.
Well, seeing as how they've been doing that for years, and the result has been mostly crap, I think we know that answer.
TKGAngel
06-26-07, 04:37 PM
Also, can we not lose our heads over a hat? :mad: My 6yo daughter nearly got trampled during the "hat dance" after the Atlantics race. It must have been pretty obvious because Raphael Matos then pointed her out and made sure she got a Mazdaspeed hat. He has a new fan. :thumbup:
The professional photogs were asking that the kids be moved in front for the hat dance, since someone was going to get hurt. The race volunteers were the ones not letting the kids in front, something to do with the sight lines for the jumbotron cameras. Its all fun and games till someone loses an eye, I guess.
In other news, I read that Cooper Tires were selling the used Atlantics tires for $5 a tire, with the money going to the Hole in the Wall camps. Is this something new that they're doing?
Tell me how to fix it, and let's see what happens when Champ Car does the opposite.
the opposite which you advocate hasn't exactly been working out the past 5 years. but if you think .7 is the "progress" you've been looking for, more power to you. care to share with us the other targeted milestones you're expecting that should be apparent in the upcoming months?
jonovision_man
06-26-07, 05:52 PM
Oooh! Ooh! I know what works!
http://nascar-races.com/cars.jpg
Who's in? :p
jono
extramundane
06-26-07, 06:52 PM
the opposite which you advocate hasn't exactly been working out the past 5 years. but if you think .7 is the "progress" you've been looking for, more power to you. care to share with us the other targeted milestones you're expecting that should be apparent in the upcoming months?
C'mon, dude! It's a niche sport! .7 is right on target!
rosawendel
06-26-07, 07:38 PM
every purchased ticket required an electronic transaction, even when paying cash at the ticket window (as i can verify). Counting up paid attendance would be easy.
During the Indy 500:
"portions of today's broadcast of the Indy 500 are sponsored locally by the Grand Prix of Cleveland"
cue commercial that shows some Champ Cars (a couple clips are of Nigel Mansell), then mentions beach volleyball, motocross, and street warriors drag racing (but shows drifting). :saywhat:
During Indians games:
similar ad, but more emphasis on the beach volleyball.
Radio ad on local alt rock station:
about 5 seconds mentioning the race, the rest was about the Ms. Grand Prix contest.
No mentions of any drivers or anything that would appeal to race fans. But yeah, despite this, sounds like Champ Car is still a healthy product to promote. :mad:
Cleveland gate 151,400 over 3 days, 65,000+ on Sunday, up 27% over last year.
But if you don't like facts, you can follow in the footsteps of AJ Soprano.
THE SECOND COMING
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all convictions, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?
Sean O'Gorman
06-26-07, 09:47 PM
That isn't the real attendance figure! :shakehead
If I told you I make $151,400 would you believe that too?
And regardless of what the attendance number is, when the emphasis isn't on the racing, it doesn't put decals on the sidepods, additional drivers on the track, and real race tracks on the schedule.
Methanolandbrats
06-26-07, 09:56 PM
That isn't the real attendance figure!
If I told you I make $151,400 would you believe that too?
And regardless of what the attendance number is, when the emphasis isn't on the racing, it doesn't put decals on the sidepods, additional drivers on the track, and real race tracks on the schedule.
1)how do you know?
2)I don't believe anything you say ;)
3)attendance helps attract sponsors who buy decals and pay drivers. Kinda
like the subscription statistics for print media.
a 2 page thread on the NBA and nothing about the real playoffs going down right now? :saywhat:
"Saturday-night coverage of the NHL Stanley Cup finals between Anaheim and Ottawa equaled NBC's lowest rating ever for a prime-time broadcast."
It is possible to enjoy a sport without worrying about ratings that slouch off to Bethlehem. Ank does it.
pferrf1
06-27-07, 05:23 PM
I don't doubt that, but the numbers still don't make sense. That being said, I would expect a huge improvement over 2004, the race was on a Saturday, and IIRC, there weren't many people there on Thursday and Friday (unlike the year under the lights).
They must've counted pretty damn fast!
I believe they are including those that attended for the night events as well, i.e. the drag racing, concerts etc. So the number is likely very accurate.
Also, ask the fire marshall in the city of any given event if the track organizer can give you a people count at any given moment........
pferrf1
06-27-07, 05:31 PM
If all anyone watched were the really high rated things on TV you only watch:
American Idol
CSI
NFL
NASCAR
Doesn't work for me.
"Saturday-night coverage of the NHL Stanley Cup finals between Anaheim and Ottawa equaled NBC's lowest rating ever for a prime-time broadcast."
It is possible to enjoy a sport without worrying about ratings that slouch off to Bethlehem. Ank does it.
a) there are no legit alternatives to the NHL for NHL players & franchises to run to if revenue drops
b) NHL is in trouble
nice deflection though, still waiting for a schedule of expected milestones...
Sean O'Gorman
06-27-07, 09:02 PM
"Saturday-night coverage of the NHL Stanley Cup finals between Anaheim and Ottawa equaled NBC's lowest rating ever for a prime-time broadcast."
It is possible to enjoy a sport without worrying about ratings that slouch off to Bethlehem. Ank does it.
So if ratings go down in the NHL, do teams fold and the existing ones start filling their roster with pay players?
jonovision_man
06-27-07, 09:10 PM
The NHL is increasing their salary cap again, from the original cap of $39M after the strike to over $50M...
Remember that cap increases are tied to revenue. NHL teams are making more money than ever.
ChampCar would do well to be "in trouble" like that!
jono
Also, ask the fire marshall...
Not exactly.
Different standards for outdoor events - in reality no specific standard unless you are fencing in a small area. Grandstand seating limitations are known but we all know the stands were nowhere near full. FWIW, people will generally get very uncomfortable (person space issues) long before overcrowded becomes an issue. For example, open floor area standing space is 5 sq. ft per person - 10x10 room ---> 20 people. :rolleyes:
There will always be shenanigans with head counts. Do we count tickets sold, tickets given away, tickets turned back in for admission to the grounds, grandstand seats full/empty? I do know there were turnstiles at the gate - something I never saw previously.
It was also interesting that they switched to using tickets for food and beverages. Anyone hear the story on that? My guess would be that they went from charging vendors a flat fee to a percentage of the take.
People can carp all they want, but for the brief time we were there it seemed busier and more of an event. People seemed to like what they saw on the track, too. Hopefully that will translate to some momentum for the event.
But if no one is watching on teevee you cant justify a 5 million dollar budget. $1 mil maybe if you got some bitchin B2B. They need to enter the real world if this series is going to survive.
TKGAngel
06-28-07, 08:27 AM
It was also interesting that they switched to using tickets for food and beverages. Anyone hear the story on that? My guess would be that they went from charging vendors a flat fee to a percentage of the take.
From what I remember reading this weekend, the switch to tickets was for monetary reasons, sanitary reasons, and simplicity for vendors. I had no problems with the ticket system, though it was annoying to have to go to three separate booths to get tickets, a hot dog and a pop.
The NHL is increasing their salary cap again, from the original cap of $39M after the strike to over $50M...
Can someone forward that memo to the Sabres, please? Three big free agents still have not been signed, and the deadline is Sunday noon.
jonovision_man
06-28-07, 07:12 PM
Can someone forward that memo to the Sabres, please? Three big free agents still have not been signed, and the deadline is Sunday noon.
Totally OT for a second... :)
With the cap going up, free agents this year are going to cash in... probably why they aren't signing now. Sucks for small market teams, like Buffalo or my team, Edmonton... :(
jono
Tifosi24
06-28-07, 07:44 PM
But if no one is watching on teevee you cant justify a 5 million dollar budget. $1 mil maybe if you got some bitchin B2B. They need to enter the real world if this series is going to survive.
You are correct sir!
So if ratings go down in the NHL, do teams fold and the existing ones start filling their roster with pay players?
The NHL survives on ticket revenue, local sponsors and local TV. That's what niche sports do. Let's be honest; some Svengali has convinced you that it's cool to rag on Champ Car's low ratings. When you're allowed to have your own opinion, you enjoy lots of shows with low ratings; there's not much else to do in your parent's basement.
But if no one is watching on teevee you cant justify a 5 million dollar budget. $1 mil maybe if you got some bitchin B2B. They need to enter the real world if this series is going to survive.
Steelback beer, paid $5million per year to be sponsor of the TO Grand Prix. Throw in 25 sponsors who pay a smaller amount, charge the hot dog vendors for space, charge $100 for a good seat, $10 for those who just want to check out a three day festival of speed, and you'll begin to understand why KK and GF run businesses instead of trying to sound like business people on the Internet.
jonovision_man
06-28-07, 09:54 PM
The NHL survives on ticket revenue, local sponsors and local TV. That's what niche sports do. Let's be honest; some Svengali has convinced you that it's cool to rag on Champ Car's low ratings. When you're allowed to have your own opinion, you enjoy lots of shows with low ratings; there's not much else to do in your parent's basement.
I enjoy a lot of shows with low ratings. Usually they get canceled though.
Steelback beer, paid $5million per year to be sponsor of the TO Grand Prix.
Link? $5M/year... that sounds high to me.
Edit:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20070313.wsptsteelback13/BNStory/GlobeSportsFootball
D'Angelo and the Champ Car race announced a five-year deal Tuesday that hands title sponsorship and pouring rights at the event to Steelback Brewery. The agreement is believed to be worth around $20 million in sponsorship payments and promotional commitments.
$20M over 5 years = $4M/year... still sounds high to me. Not sure what "promotional commitments" would consist of. It includes the right to sell their beer ("pouring rights").
Throw in 25 sponsors who pay a smaller amount, charge the hot dog vendors for space, charge $100 for a good seat, $10 for those who just want to check out a three day festival of speed, and you'll begin to understand why KK and GF run businesses instead of trying to sound like business people on the Internet.
Throw in paying millions to broadcast it on TV, throw in another few million in team assistance to get a full 17 car grid, throw in whatever they're paying to keep Atlantics going, throw in all the races that don't get the crowds Toronto does, throw in settling the lawsuit with the Chinese promoter, or the debacle in Ansan, or buying Cosworth...
ChampCar isn't profitable.
jono
TKGAngel
06-29-07, 11:44 AM
$20M over 5 years = $4M/year... still sounds high to me. Not sure what "promotional commitments" would consist of. It includes the right to sell their beer ("pouring rights").
Promotional commitments probably means a certain level of advertising support. You couldn't watch the SC Finals on HNiC without seeing at least 1 GP ad per game. I've seen a print ad or two in Buffalo trying to get people over the border for the race.
Dr. Corkski
06-29-07, 12:27 PM
Nothing says desperation like saying Champ Car should be following the NHL as the blueprint for success. :laugh:
pferrf1
06-29-07, 01:10 PM
Promotional commitments probably means a certain level of advertising support. You couldn't watch the SC Finals on HNiC without seeing at least 1 GP ad per game. I've seen a print ad or two in Buffalo trying to get people over the border for the race.
Correct. Steelback committed to that much money in direct payments to the GPTO and in promo spends. Hmmm...Steelback on Tagliani's car? TV ads everywhere.... Thats not the all GPTO's dollars - that's a lot of Steelback's spending.
jonovision_man
06-29-07, 01:20 PM
Correct. Steelback committed to that much money in direct payments to the GPTO and in promo spends. Hmmm...Steelback on Tagliani's car? TV ads everywhere.... Thats not the all GPTO's dollars - that's a lot of Steelback's spending.
Right. That $4M makes more sense when you take it all into account.
jono
Racing Truth
06-29-07, 05:27 PM
Nothing says desperation like saying Champ Car should be following the NHL as the blueprint for success. :laugh:
Hey, maybe we should get on Versus!!!!!!1!ONE!!!11!:rofl:
Anyway, due to the, IMHO, problematic handicapped seating, I was unable to attend. Went last yr., didn't like it. Before you ask, I could have written letters, made calls, etc, but, honestly, I just barely GAF anymore.
That said, from TV and local coverage, better crowds than we've had at Burke for awhile. No doubt about that.:thumbup: 65k+ on Sunday?:thumdown: Yeah, right, and pigs will come flyin' out of my arse at any moment. Those grandstands combined? Maybe 30k, if full. No way 35k were just milling around. Being generous, I'd guess 45 to, maybe, 50k on Sunday, 30-35k Saturday, 15-20k on Fri. So, being generous, 3-day of 105k.
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