View Full Version : Road Courses
Why did Mont Tremblent look so damned good on TV?
Because it is a proper race course!
Champ Car, face the truth. Hokey street courses may make sense from a short term financial point of view, but if you are going to build this series for the long run, you need to race on real courses. Today's race was fabulous, and we need more of the same!!! :thumbup:
It all depends upon attendance, as is should. My next event is Road America, can't wait.
opinionated ow
07-02-07, 08:09 AM
It all depends upon attendance, as is should. My next event is Road America, can't wait.
no no no, its all about the FIA saying we can't race at tracks LMP1 cars can despite the grade 2....i know this cause it was told to someone on the interweb :shakehead
(runs away :rofl: )
If it depends on attendance be careful. I heard a 42,000 3-day for Tremblent.:confused:
Sean O'Gorman
07-02-07, 08:54 AM
:thumbup: to Mont Tremblant.
:thumbup: to Mont Tremblant.
Indeed. At least now. See, for years Mont Tremblant pissed me off to no end. Granted, it's a beautiful course located in some of the prettiest country in North America, but when I was a kid F1 used to alternate between there and Mosport, and as Mosport was a short bike ride from my house (as opposed to 300 miles away) I could haunt that track when the circus was in town.
Mont Tremblant years just made me sad and lonely. :cry:
:rofl:
Methanolandbrats
07-02-07, 09:21 AM
What made it so good? It is a natural terrain road course, not some bulldozed flat POS with fake turns and man-made camber. When they built that track they just laid an asphalt ribbon down on the land the way God intended. Add in a little rain and you have a proper motor race. Tracks like that showcase driver talent and there are very few tracks like that left.:thumbup:
Ed_Severson
07-02-07, 09:24 AM
It does seem to suit us well, doesn't it? I think it would be even better with an additional 10-15 feet of racetrack in a few spots, but it's definitely a challenging course. I was joking with Cam yesterday during chat that we should just race at Mont Tremblant one weekend, Road America the next, and then back to Mont Tremblant, etc. :)
Methanolandbrats
07-02-07, 09:28 AM
It does seem to suit us well, doesn't it? I think it would be even better with an additional 10-15 feet of racetrack in a few spots, but it's definitely a challenging course. I was joking with Cam yesterday during chat that we should just race at Mont Tremblant one weekend, Road America the next, and then back to Mont Tremblant, etc. :) Send your resume to Champcar :)
It's not like I'm new to Champ Car racing; I've been a fan for most of my life.
But, I found myself sitting there watching that race just transfixed by that course. I want to fly my wife up next year and enjoy it in person. The kids can make do on their own!
Seriously, as much as I like Road America, I like Mont-Tremblant even more. Now, next after watching Road America, I'll probably reverse my opinion.
I am seriously weak for road courses.
opinionated ow
07-02-07, 11:08 AM
It does seem to suit us well, doesn't it?
and it should have been on the schedule 10 years ago
jonovision_man
07-02-07, 12:31 PM
If it depends on attendance be careful. I heard a 42,000 3-day for Tremblent.:confused:
That's the problem with ChampCar running road courses, can't attract enough fans to make them viable.
Add up the people in attendance and the handful who watched on TV and there's not much there to impress a sponsor, unless he's a race fan. :) Contrast it to the swarms of people at Long Beach or Toronto... and street races are still going to be the norm for the series.
jono
Ed_Severson
07-02-07, 12:49 PM
and it should have been on the schedule 10 years ago
Take it up with CART. ;)
cameraman
07-02-07, 01:02 PM
Contrast it to the swarms of people at Long Beach or Toronto... and street races are still going to be the norm for the series.
jono
The road courses have to be vastly less expensive to race at. You don't need to buy, install, remove then store a few miles of barriers and catch fencing and tens of miles of crowd control fencing & stands. I'd love to see a true accounting, as opposed to anything that will ever show up at certain unnamed fora, comparing the costs of a Houston race vs a Mont Tremblent.
jonovision_man
07-02-07, 01:12 PM
The road courses have to be vastly less expensive to race at. You don't need to buy, install, remove then store a few miles of barriers and catch fencing and tens of miles of crowd control fencing & stands. I'd love to see a true accounting, as opposed to anything that will ever show up at certain unnamed fora, comparing the costs of a Houston race vs a Mont Tremblent.
There's a lot to take into account, having discussed it and researched it a zillion times over the years, I'm left to conclude that street circuits do quite well.
- They attract lots of people
- Sponsors love them, buy a corporate box, bring the gang
- Government money can help foot the bill
It's certainly cheaper to run a permanent course, but it's been a long while since ChampCar has been enough of a draw to get people out there.
There's a very good reason why ChampCar ditched Laguna Seca for San Jose, and it's not because it's a better race track.
I'm a bit biased being in Toronto, but the race is solidly a part of the city-scape. It's hard to imagine summer without the roar from the Lakeshore. :) The series doesn't have to be popular, the event itself is something that people are aware of.
jono
We’re purists, we’re (mostly) old, and we’re diehards, so we love natural terrain road courses. Are you all going to be at Road America?
If you aren't willing to put your money where your keyboard is, it won’t make any difference. Racing at a facility can be free, but, as jono points out, it won’t make any difference if no one is watching.
Methanolandbrats
07-02-07, 02:21 PM
They're running five or so real road courses this year. That along with the airports and a couple of the street courses that don't suck makes for a nice schedule. That was an excellent race yesterday and the season long battle between Doorknobs and The French Girl should provide excellent entertainment and increased interest. Road America should see 50k even if some of the sportcar snobs go home saturday. All Champcar needs is a couple new teams, a few sponsors, Andretti the Younger.........etc........the series is a coiled snake ready to strike :D I can feel it.
TrueBrit
07-02-07, 04:38 PM
the series is a coiled snake ready to strike :D I can feel it.
Man, you have got issues....:D
Chiphead_Dave
07-02-07, 05:03 PM
We’re purists, we’re (mostly) old, and we’re diehards, so we love natural terrain road courses. Are you all going to be at Road America?
If you aren't willing to put your money where your keyboard is, it won’t make any difference. Racing at a facility can be free, but, as jono points out, it won’t make any difference if no one is watching.
While I love road courses and I love watching......ChampCar couldn't work
out a deal with Denver (not a road course I know) and my local race got
canceled.
So my wallet and my money will find another purpose this year.
It does seem to suit us well, doesn't it? I think it would be even better with an additional 10-15 feet of racetrack in a few spots, but it's definitely a challenging course. I was joking with Cam yesterday during chat that we should just race at Mont Tremblant one weekend, Road America the next, and then back to Mont Tremblant, etc. :)
Seriously, take the top ten US natural terrain road courses, run them all twice per weekend in a twenty week summer schedule, keep the overhead low and the cost of entry as low as possible, but with real teams, real innovation, and real racing ("run what you brung"), and you just created the best damned series in the US.
Ed_Severson
07-02-07, 06:06 PM
Seriously, take the top ten US natural terrain road courses, run them all twice per weekend in a twenty week summer schedule, keep the overhead low and the cost of entry as low as possible, but with real teams, real innovation, and real racing ("run what you brung"), and you just created the best damned series in the US.
But Quebec isn't in the US (yet), and we don't want them! :laugh:
Replace "US" with "North America" and I'm in. I'm not sure there are 10 natural terrain road courses in the US that are a good fit for our cars. Let's call it ...
Road America
Mont Tremblant
Laguna Seca
Mid-Ohio
Portland
Hermanos Rodriguez
Road Atlanta (could be done)
Watkins Glen (needs some work)
Miller Motorsports Park
Someplace in western Canada
Now we've covered both ends of Canadia, Mexico, the Southeast and Northeast US, the Midwest, the Pacific coast, and the Mormons. That's everybody, right?
I think the problem is not road courses but road courses HERE. My guess is Assen (now!:thumbup: ) and Zolder will do just fine gatewise. CC and Stoddart have said probably 2 more next year in Europe (with perhaps one being a street or street/airport layout) There's just too much competition for the US sports entertainment and auto racing dollars.
Good point, Ed. I meant NA, not US.
And to Hell with Europe. Well, not literally, but you know what I mean. I want races I can attend. I am talking about a series that is about racing, for racers, not a show or a festival built for TV and corporate execs. If it is a low dollar series, so be it, and frankly, all the better.
jonovision_man
07-02-07, 06:46 PM
I think the problem is not road courses but road courses HERE. My guess is Assen (now!:thumbup: ) and Zolder will do just fine gatewise. CC and Stoddart have said probably 2 more next year in Europe (with perhaps one being a street or street/airport layout) There's just too much competition for the US sports entertainment and auto racing dollars.
Europe also has a bigger and more established road racing culture. America's seems to be centered on club racing and sportscars.
jono
stroker
07-03-07, 11:33 PM
Except for that damned chicane I really liked it.
Except for that damned chicane I really liked it.
Didn't like that at all. All it needed was some train tracks :saywhat:
Jag_Warrior
07-04-07, 12:59 AM
America's seems to be centered on club racing and sportscars.
jono
My fear is that CCWS is attempting to fill one of those bills... and I don't mean that they're planning on running LMP's anytime soon. :saywhat:
BTW, great thread, Indy! :thumbup:
devilmaster
07-04-07, 01:51 AM
Didn't like that at all. All it needed was some train tracks :saywhat:
That chicane reminded me of one of the old hockenheim chicanes.
The Ost one, iirc.
I was wondering if there were gonna be some broken suspension parts the way they were running over them.
pferrf1
07-04-07, 08:11 AM
Seriously, take the top ten US natural terrain road courses, run them all twice per weekend in a twenty week summer schedule, keep the overhead low and the cost of entry as low as possible, but with real teams, real innovation, and real racing ("run what you brung"), and you just created the best damned series in the US.
Wasn't that tried for a few years by ALMS? A series with the support of Audi and Cadillac behind them, each to a much greater extent than CCWS has today from any corporation? Didn't work.
Wasn't that tried for a few years by ALMS? A series with the support of Audi and Cadillac behind them, each to a much greater extent than CCWS has today from any corporation? Didn't work.
There was too little commitment, too little patience, too little focus. ALMS has been all over the map in terms of what they want to be. They have lost me several times (like with the rovals, for example).
The commitment to place and form would have to be a core philosophy of the organization. Live or die by it, but stick with it no matter what comes.
There was too little commitment, too little patience, too little focus. ALMS has been all over the map in terms of what they want to be. They have lost me several times (like with the rovals, for example).
The commitment to place and form would have to be a core philosophy of the organization. Live or die by it, but stick with it no matter what comes.
ALMS is yet another series victimized by one race. Screw Le Mans (who in ALMS actually spends the money to go there?) and just race unrestricted P2 cars all over North America.
FCYTravis
07-05-07, 12:51 PM
ALMS is yet another series victimized by one race. Screw Le Mans (who in ALMS actually spends the money to go there?) and just race unrestricted P2 cars all over North America.
A-men.
But Quebec isn't in the US (yet), and we don't want them! :laugh:
Replace "US" with "North America" and I'm in. I'm not sure there are 10 natural terrain road courses in the US that are a good fit for our cars. Let's call it ...
Road America
Mont Tremblant
Laguna Seca
Mid-Ohio
Portland
Hermanos Rodriguez
Road Atlanta (could be done)
Watkins Glen (needs some work)
Miller Motorsports Park
Someplace in western Canada
Now we've covered both ends of Canadia, Mexico, the Southeast and Northeast US, the Midwest, the Pacific coast, and the Mormons. That's everybody, right?
Sounds great in concept, but in reality a lot of these tracks don't produce good races. It is too hard to pass in a series that has reasonable parity among entrants. Most could be made racey with some work.
I agree on RA and Miller. Mont Tremblant sounds like they are going to do some more work to. But, while Laguna, Mid-Ohio, and Road Atlanta are tracks I really like, they are parade grounds for Champs. The most recent Champ races at LS and MO prove this. They need work. Who is going to pay for it?
Insomniac
07-05-07, 03:19 PM
Sounds great in concept, but in reality a lot of these tracks don't produce good races. It is too hard to pass in a series that has reasonable parity among entrants. Most could be made racey with some work.
I agree on RA and Miller. Mont Tremblant sounds like they are going to do some more work to. But, while Laguna, Mid-Ohio, and Road Atlanta are tracks I really like, they are parade grounds for Champs. The most recent Champ races at LS and MO prove this. They need work. Who is going to pay for it?
All these courses at one time didn't have parades. How did the tracks become the problem all of a sudden? Why should the tracks need to have work done and get reconfigured? If you want racing at those tracks like in the far past, then the focus on fixes need to be on the car, not the track.
Who is going to pay for it?This is the real question. MawTrahBlah and Road America are loss leaders for markets they want to be in.
All these courses at one time didn't have parades. How did the tracks become the problem all of a sudden? Why should the tracks need to have work done and get reconfigured? If you want racing at those tracks like in the far past, then the focus on fixes need to be on the car, not the track.
It's not all of a sudden. Look at the couple of years of racing run there. Mid-Ohio has one passing zone at the end of the straight. The rest of the track is hard to pass on even for bikes. Laguna is similar. For series such as sportscars that have a disparity in speeds, it's no problem.
I'm love these tracks. But, I don't want parades.
It's not all of a sudden. Look at the couple of years of racing run there. Mid-Ohio has one passing zone at the end of the straight. The rest of the track is hard to pass on even for bikes. Laguna is similar. For series such as sportscars that have a disparity in speeds, it's no problem.
I'm love these tracks. But, I don't want parades.
Talk about parades, the chance of a street course producing a decent race are almost nil. I agree some of the aforementioned roadcourses could produce decent racing with a few tweaks. Frankly that's where CC spec racing needs to be, on raod courses. Capable drivers and a racy spec are under played in the whole equation, while we also rarely hear about budgets from pay drivers that make them gun shy about bending cars, hence not attempting to pass. Long straights that end in sharp turns, that's what passing has been all about in road racing for ages...it's that simple. Throw in adequate runoff and a halt in always throwing FCY's at every incident and you might see some enjoyable racing.
Insomniac
07-05-07, 08:18 PM
It's not all of a sudden. Look at the couple of years of racing run there. Mid-Ohio has one passing zone at the end of the straight. The rest of the track is hard to pass on even for bikes. Laguna is similar. For series such as sportscars that have a disparity in speeds, it's no problem.
I'm love these tracks. But, I don't want parades.
They've been tweaking courses for years to improve passing. It hasn't produced much. At one time, all these courses allowed for passing. Because they don't now, they should be modified? Seems like the problem isn't the track configuration.
Talk about parades, the chance of a street course producing a decent race are almost nil. I agree some of the aforementioned roadcourses could produce decent racing with a few tweaks. Frankly that's where CC spec racing needs to be, on raod courses. Capable drivers and a racy spec are under played in the whole equation, while we also rarely hear about budgets from pay drivers that make them gun shy about bending cars, hence not attempting to pass. Long straights that end in sharp turns, that's what passing has been all about in road racing for ages...it's that simple. Throw in adequate runoff and a halt in always throwing FCY's at every incident and you might see some enjoyable racing.
I agree. I'm not saying street courses are better. I'm not a big fan of street courses at all. As you said, the formula for passing is no huge secret. However, some track width is needed. Mid-Ohio in particular needs additional width for passing. After the turn at the end of the backstraight, all you have to do is drive in the middle of the track to prevent a pass.
They've been tweaking courses for years to improve passing. It hasn't produced much. At one time, all these courses allowed for passing. Because they don't now, they should be modified? Seems like the problem isn't the track configuration.
Yes, but look what has happened to the series over the years. The competition has tightened. At the end of CART, the field was so balanced and the parades started at Mid-Ohio and Laguna. Both have only one real passing zone (unless you are Zanardi :D ).
Methanolandbrats
07-06-07, 09:02 AM
I've been watching this stuff since the late 60s and I don't ever remember an era with a lot of "passing". I do remember a lot of close racing with an occasional pass, some of which were so well executed I can still remember them.
I do remember a lot of close racing with an occasional pass, some of which were so well executed I can still remember them.
:thumbup:
I'd rather watch several laps of a driver setting up the next pass than 4 lead changes per lap. I enjoy watching different racing lines and the seeing the pass a lap before they make it.
Did the Handford device making the racing better or did it make for more passing? 63 lead changes in one race? I think there is a big difference between have no ability to pass and having to work for it.
It is possible to design a street course with passing, just as you can design a "perfect" natural road course. You are only limited by money, the NIMBY's, sufficient space for set-up, driver safety, spectator safety, proper facilities, etc. Finding the right balance is the hard part.
Andrew Longman
07-06-07, 09:53 AM
I've been watching this stuff since the late 60s and I don't ever remember an era with a lot of "passing". I do remember a lot of close racing with an occasional pass, some of which were so well executed I can still remember them.
Here Here.
Close following. Pressing the driver in front. Pushing to create a mistake or set up a pass. The quality of the pass, not the quantity is what makes for great, memorable racing.
It happens by not having excessive brakes that shorten the braking zones to a postage stamp and not having an over-reliance on aero downforce.
Some tracks such as MO and LS could stand a little more elbow room, but generally any track mentioned can and has produced good, and boring, racing. It has to do with more than just the track.
But while we're at it, most street races have and can produce good races. LB, TO, St Pete, Surfers, DEnver (eventually), Houston (this year) have all had great races run there. Heck, I even thought SJ was fun last year, but there is still a little more work needed there. I thought LV was a good layout. The underpass was exciting, there were decent passing zones and the chicane prompted serious banzai action.
And don't forget that Edmonton and Cleveland consistently produce great races.
I like very much the idea of a series dominated by natural terrain road courses and I hope more are coming. MT was a blast and I surely will be there next year. But the urban races serve a purpose and so long as they are done correctly they too can hold my interest. Of course I would like to see a few small and big ovals thrown in too. :gomer:
"A little more elbow room" is a good way of putting it. It's not major stuff that is needed. But it all cost money. All that is needed is an opportunity to pass. If you are needing a race with constant passing, there are series trying to do that already.;)
Insomniac
07-06-07, 12:32 PM
Yes, but look what has happened to the series over the years. The competition has tightened. At the end of CART, the field was so balanced and the parades started at Mid-Ohio and Laguna. Both have only one real passing zone (unless you are Zanardi :D ).
At the end of CART, they were down to one tire manufacturer and one engine manufacturer. Go back 2 or 3 years before that when there was more variety of equipment, or go back 5 or 6 years when the chassis wasn't quite as advanced and those tracks had great races (not parades). They also had more cars on track.
Reconfiguring the course is not going to stop the parades unless you reconfigure it into an oval. ;)
At the end of CART, they were down to one tire manufacturer and one engine manufacturer. Go back 2 or 3 years before that when there was more variety of equipment, or go back 5 or 6 years when the chassis wasn't quite as advanced and those tracks had great races (not parades). They also had more cars on track.
Reconfiguring the course is not going to stop the parades unless you reconfigure it into an oval. ;)
And how many manufacturers are there now? If your saying a solution is to get more manufacturers involved, great. But until then...............
Insomniac
07-06-07, 02:33 PM
And how many manufacturers are there now? If your saying a solution is to get more manufacturers involved, great. But until then...............
No, I'm not. I'm saying the problem is 1. the cars and 2. the number of cars, not the tracks. They're too "easy" to drive. The drivers are able to get them to stick on every turn of the course. There is no give and take. Get better here, but lose here. Then different driving styles have different drivers choosing different things to give up. Now, it seems the trade off is simply straight line speed for cornering speed. And they all choose the same option. You end up with a parade as a result. ChampCar has taken a good step with the DP01. We're starting to see them stay on the rear wing of the guy in front. I'm excited. I'd like to see even more of a deemphasis on aerodynamic grip and more on mechanical grip.
audi quattro
07-07-07, 09:07 AM
I found that this track is visually the most striking because of all the elevation changes. But props to the track owner who made sure the track itself was well maintained. And most of all the manicuring of the grass and the paint was all fresh with the apex's all nicely painted.
Of all the champcar road courses, maybe Mexico keeps the track looking as nice. Even road america is always looking unpolished with the track looking worn and torn.
They're running five or so real road courses this year. That along with the airports and a couple of the street courses that don't suck makes for a nice schedule.
Yep. The only people who won't come out to road courses are the Yankees. I expect we'll see a few more foreign road courses over the years. It was nice to see an actual off camber turn.
pferrf1
07-08-07, 08:13 AM
I found that this track is visually the most striking because of all the elevation changes. But props to the track owner who made sure the track itself was well maintained. And most of all the manicuring of the grass and the paint was all fresh with the apex's all nicely painted.
Of all the champcar road courses, maybe Mexico keeps the track looking as nice. Even road america is always looking unpolished with the track looking worn and torn.
I think thats part of the F1 influence. Attention to detail. Bernie is fanatical about the presentation of the race circuit.
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