Cosworth

[opinionated ow]

WTF was the go with the iirc 5 engine blow-ups (according to pressdog)? that is a pretty major problem...:shakehead

[Insomniac]

WTF was the go with the iirc 5 engine blow-ups (according to pressdog)? that is a pretty major problem...:shakehead

I doubt there were 5 grenades. Probably only 1 (PT). Rest were probably something besides the actual engine.

[opinionated ow]

got ya, i have to rely on second hand reports courtesy of incompetence amplified.

[Wheel-Nut]

I read that the one that blew in PT's ride was over due for a rebuild.

[Rus'L]

WTF was the go with the iirc 5 engine blow-ups (according to pressdog)? that is a pretty major problem...:shakehead

The Bourdais failure at Cleveland turned out to be an electrical problem. The engine was fine. They didn't find that out until after the weekend.

[opinionated ow]

The Bourdais failure at Cleveland turned out to be an electrical problem. The engine was fine. They didn't find that out until after the weekend.

sorry i was ambigous. i think it was 5 in the race in canada alone

[Insomniac]

I read that the one that blew in PT's ride was over due for a rebuild.

On the other hand, there was no mistaking that plume of smoke rising from Paul Tracy’s car today. Tracy did suffer a blown engine, although there is a back story to that as well. Tracy heavily damaged his primary car in the morning warm-up when he crashed into the tire wall exiting Turn 10. The Forsythe Championship Racing team had no choice but to press Tracy’s spare car into service, one that was powered by an XFE that, if not over its mileage limit was, in the words of a Cosworth spokesman “very elderly.”
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/38463/

If the mileage on it plus the estimated race distance was over 1,200 miles, what was FCR thinking?

[pchall]

(according to pressdog)?

:rofl: needs a lot more question marks :p

[nrc]

sorry i was ambigous. i think it was 5 in the race in canada alone

Definitely not at Mawtrahblah, if that's what you mean. There were five DNFs total. Heylen was out for a busted suspension after an spin. Junky and Clarke both said drivetrain problems.

[Wheel-Nut]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/38463/

what was FCR thinking?

Run what you brung?

[Insomniac]

Run what you brung?

Wouldn't Cosworth have additional engines at the track?

[KLang]

Run what you brung?

More likely just not enough time to swap engines. In Vegas I watched a team uncrate a replacement engine on Friday or Saturday afternoon so they are available.

[Wheel-Nut]

KLang is onto the most likely scenario. Morning of race crash and not enough time to swap motors.

[cameraman]

Forsythe is not in the game this year. The team isn't practicing and they seem to be running at bare minimum. Sounds like they are running two cars on a single car budget.

[Andrew Longman]

Run what you brung?

Essentially, but I doubt they brought an expired lump. I imagine Cosworth won't event let you keep them after their expiration date. Much harder to rebuild an exploded lump and it is their lump after all.

On the other failures, isn't Pi supplying much more and Cosworth much less of the engine electronics this year? Might explain some of the gremlins we've seen.

[Insomniac]

KLang is onto the most likely scenario. Morning of race crash and not enough time to swap motors.

But, if they are going to be a top team, they need to see these things in advance. They should've been swapping that engine out before they needed it if it wasn't going to make it to the end of the race distance. Of course, this is based on the assumption that they could've swapped it if they knew it beforehand.

[Wheel-Nut]

^^^ I don't know, I'm just a fan.

[TedN]

Excerpt from PT's column in today's Autosport ...


As things transpired it was irrelevant to me because the engine just expired during a yellow flag period. Cosworths don't normally let go in a big way, so I got the Safety Team to tow me back in case it was just a small problem, but when the crew turned it over it made a horrendous crunching noise, so this one had clearly shat itself.

Unlike some reports said, it wasn't even an old one - it had about 300 miles on it, so that's a bit weird.


Source (http://www.autosport.com/journal/article.php/id/1135)

Ted

[grungex]

Wouldn't Cosworth have additional engines at the track?

Each team has its allotment of engines for the year, which they send back to Torrance for rebuilding according to the schedule -- maximim mileage is 1200, IIRC. FCR would certainly have had enough engines on hand to do a change if one was warranted, and there is no way they would have run one past its "expiration" limit. As already pointed out, PT noted that the engine that blew only had 300 miles on it. These things happen.

[stroker]

I'd be surprised if the Cosworth folks don't have something like an auto-shutoff for the engine once it hits a certain number of rpm or time running...? Wouldn't be that hard to do with the electronic management.

[Insomniac]

Each team has its allotment of engines for the year, which they send back to Torrance for rebuilding according to the schedule -- maximim mileage is 1200, IIRC. FCR would certainly have had enough engines on hand to do a change if one was warranted, and there is no way they would have run one past its "expiration" limit. As already pointed out, PT noted that the engine that blew only had 300 miles on it. These things happen.

I was glad to read the PT quote. They didn't make a stupid mistake. Now they can just focus on putting enough fuel in the car. ;)

[manic mechanic]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/38463/

If the mileage on it plus the estimated race distance was over 1,200 miles, what was FCR thinking?


One thing you must take into account is that all engines are NOT exactly the same.. Some have quirks that one can never figure out even though it came off the same assembly line as all the others.

IIRC, Jourdain won a race a few years back on an engine that was 200+ miles overdue for a rebuild, and did it convincingly.

Reading further down the thread and seeing that the particular unit had less than 300 miles since last rebuild makes me wonder how many "recycles" that particular engine had gone through... Running an engine too lean can have a latent effect on componentry (pistons and valve heads suffer the most), yet during structural examination they can appear completely acceptable and "within tolerance" for re-use.

I personally have built engines for overtly heavy use and double/triple checked every component along the way only to have them expire early due to an undetected failure in one of those same components.
This one seems like more of a quirk than an indication of any mistake in its use or rebuild.

The "crunching sound" comment tells me that either a timing component let go or a keyway that holds those components in time with the recip masses "rolled over" and allowed the engine to eat itself, because either situation would destroy the engine with little warning.

Just assessing the situation from what I have read...I have a 50/50 chance of being wrong! ;)

manic

[manic mechanic]

I'd be surprised if the Cosworth folks don't have something like an auto-shutoff for the engine once it hits a certain number of rpm or time running...? Wouldn't be that hard to do with the electronic management.


Electronics will only shut off fuel and spark..they can't stop the rotating mass(es) from colliding with each other in spin-down, and it's worse if the clutch is out when the failure happens because road-speed aids in keeping things in motion.

All the elecronics in the world will not prevent a mechanical failure or its resultant damage.

manic

[Insomniac]

One thing you must take into account is that all engines are NOT exactly the same.. Some have quirks that one can never figure out even though it came off the same assembly line as all the others.

IIRC, Jourdain won a race a few years back on an engine that was 200+ miles overdue for a rebuild, and did it convincingly.

Reading further down the thread and seeing that the particular unit had less than 300 miles since last rebuild makes me wonder how many "recycles" that particular engine had gone through... Running an engine too lean can have a latent effect on componentry (pistons and valve heads suffer the most), yet during structural examination they can appear completely acceptable and "within tolerance" for re-use.

I personally have built engines for overtly heavy use and double/triple checked every component along the way only to have them expire early due to an undetected failure in one of those same components.
This one seems like more of a quirk than an indication of any mistake in its use or rebuild.

The "crunching sound" comment tells me that either a timing component let go or a keyway that holds those components in time with the recip masses "rolled over" and allowed the engine to eat itself, because either situation would destroy the engine with little warning.

Just assessing the situation from what I have read...I have a 50/50 chance of being wrong! ;)

manic

I understand that. Just because it's supposed to last 1,200 miles, doesn't mean it will. But if Cosworth is saying these are good for 1,200 miles and then should be rebuilt, you should probably take that advice and not see if you can go further. Cosworth already warned you. We've since found out it only had 300 miles, so in this case, it's a moot point.

[Ronbo]

I understand that. Just because it's supposed to last 1,200 miles, doesn't mean it will. But if Cosworth is saying these are good for 1,200 miles and then should be rebuilt, you should probably take that advice and not see if you can go further. Cosworth already warned you. We've since found out it only had 300 miles, so in this case, it's a moot point.

I remember Robby Gordon, running the piss out his Cosworth in, I think, Mid- Ohio, and then kicking the sidepod, after he intentionallly detonated that motor. Makes you go, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,...,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,

[Insomniac]

I remember Robby Gordon, running the piss out his Cosworth in, I think, Mid- Ohio, and then kicking the sidepod, after he intentionallly detonated that motor. Makes you go, Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,,...,.,.,.,.,.,.,.,,

I wouldn't be surprised if it was all that difficult to explode an engine if you wanted to. If you're implying PT did that, I'd have to strongly disagree. I just don't see him doing that. He'd punt a few cars before doing that. I doubt there's any question after his Cleveland win as well.