Sony SXRD (aka "Took the HD Plunge v2")

[WickerBill]

A lot of HD content is broadcast in 1080i -- so if your TV can handle it natively, it's probably better than having your TV convert it to 720p. From what I've seen so far, FOX and ABC put out 720p, while CBS and NBC are 1080i. No idea about the non-networks as I don't have my HD DirecTV yet.

[Insomniac]

I just realized that the Sony I'm looking at is 720p. I know the "go to the store and see which one you like" drill, but what's the conventional wisdom? Is 1080i "better"?

There are a lot of factors that go into a TV's picture quality and resolution is pretty far down the list. Most people's eyes, at a certain distance can not perceive the difference between 720p and 1080i/p. On the 42" size you want, the distance where you can fully resolve 1080p is ~5.5ft. At ~8.25ft, you can fully resolve 720p and won't be able to see any difference between the two.

Here is a link to a viewing distance chart:
http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/hdtv_distance_chart.pdf

I'd recommend you don't pay extra if it's of no use to you, but don't lock in on either as a top requirement. You will find some 720p sets look better than 1080i/p sets. There are a lot of other electronics in the sets that makes them all look different.

All things being equal, I think the higher resolution is better.

[Insomniac]

A lot of HD content is broadcast in 1080i -- so if your TV can handle it natively, it's probably better than having your TV convert it to 720p. From what I've seen so far, FOX and ABC put out 720p, while CBS and NBC are 1080i. No idea about the non-networks as I don't have my HD DirecTV yet.

The ESPNs are 720p. But DirecTV downsamples 1920x1080i to 1280x1080i. I think they leave 720p as is (I don't recall the lawsuit mentioning that resolution).

[nrc]

The ESPNs are 720p. But DirecTV downsamples 1920x1080i to 1280x1080i. I think they leave 720p as is (I don't recall the lawsuit mentioning that resolution).

This was on MPEG2 - supposedly MPEG4 channels are full rez. We'll see if that holds.

This page lists channels and their resolution.
http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5119938-1.html

Your information agrees with what I've read. On smaller sets 720p vs 1080i is hard to tell. In fact, for sports 720p may look better.

[Insomniac]

This was on MPEG2 - supposedly MPEG4 channels are full rez. We'll see if that holds.

This page lists channels and their resolution.
http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5119938-1.html

Your information agrees with what I've read. On smaller sets 720p vs 1080i is hard to tell. In fact, for sports 720p may look better.

I hope they keep the full resolution on MPEG4. They are getting much better compression.

Here is an interview with the CTO.

http://www.engadgethd.com/2007/01/11/the-engadget-hd-interview-directvs-cto-re-hd-lite/

He says they aren't capacity limited with MPEG4, which would bode well for getting full resolution. I wonder if they will be moving some of the MPEG2 HD over to the new satellites?

I think anything with fast motion would benefit from more frames per second. But I have never figured out if 1080i is 60 fps or 30 fps. Either way, they both look much better than SD. :)

[WickerBill]

Eh, they aren't capacity limited *yet*. They launched a new bird in July and another one is due up in a month, both serving MPEG4 to regular Joes like me by January.... but tons of spotbeams for locals in HD. However, when they reach capacity this time, it might be harder to move to HD-lite... TVs are better now, most big ones are 1080, etc.

[chop456]

Well - problem solved. I just found the 50" version of the same E2200 for $180 less than the 46".

Done and done. :tony:

Thanks for the help, Dudes. :thumbup:

[Insomniac]

Eh, they aren't capacity limited *yet*. They launched a new bird in July and another one is due up in a month, both serving MPEG4 to regular Joes like me by January.... but tons of spotbeams for locals in HD. However, when they reach capacity this time, it might be harder to move to HD-lite... TVs are better now, most big ones are 1080, etc.

The one in July will be running in September IIRC. I won't have many SD channels left, so I'm going to HD at the right time. :thumbup:

[chop456]

http://www.circuitcity.com/IMAGE/product/enlarged/thc/PC.THC.SWP60.CN.JPG
Since you showed us yours, I'll show you mine. I pick it up this morning and hope to be done assembling it in time for the Super Bowl.
http://www.ikea.com/PIAimages/42506_PE137362_S4.jpg

[Warlock!]

Hey Tivonians...

I have a Tivo R10 dual tuner receiver that seems to be flakin' out on me... it stutters all the time, locking up for 1-5 seconds every 20 seconds or so. After about 15 minutes it reboots and works well for another 5-10 minutes or so, then starts to stutter again, repeating the whole process above.

Is it worth it to try to get it fixed (I have a lot of recorded stuff I'd like to save), or should I just get another receiver? A similar, 80 hr recorder goes for $250 with a $150 mail-in rebate at Best Buy.

Anyone gone thru a similar problem and looked into repairs?

[Brickman]

Hey Tivonians...

I have a Tivo R10 dual tuner receiver that seems to be flakin' out on me... it stutters all the time, locking up for 1-5 seconds every 20 seconds or so. After about 15 minutes it reboots and works well for another 5-10 minutes or so, then starts to stutter again, repeating the whole process above.

Is it worth it to try to get it fixed (I have a lot of recorded stuff I'd like to save), or should I just get another receiver? A similar, 80 hr recorder goes for $250 with a $150 mail-in rebate at Best Buy.

Anyone gone thru a similar problem and looked into repairs?

IF you buy a new one, it's just a rental. If you turn it off, they ask for their receiver back, or ding you for $200 if you tossed it or don't send it back. It's really depends if you are going to be going HD anytime soon as what to do.

You could always TRY to sign up for the insurance and a month later call them up to have them repair/exchange it.

[Insomniac]

Hey Tivonians...

I have a Tivo R10 dual tuner receiver that seems to be flakin' out on me... it stutters all the time, locking up for 1-5 seconds every 20 seconds or so. After about 15 minutes it reboots and works well for another 5-10 minutes or so, then starts to stutter again, repeating the whole process above.

Is it worth it to try to get it fixed (I have a lot of recorded stuff I'd like to save), or should I just get another receiver? A similar, 80 hr recorder goes for $250 with a $150 mail-in rebate at Best Buy.

Anyone gone thru a similar problem and looked into repairs?

Sounds like the hard drive is dying.

Are you still under a contract with DirecTV? If you're not, you shouldn't have any trouble to get them to send you a new one at no cost. Also, are you leasing it? If so, then it should be replaced as well.

If you want to replace the hard drive yourself, you may be able to save your recorded shows, it just depends on how your harddrive is holding up. Of course, this all assumes it is in fact the harddrive that is dying. You could confirm it by opening it up and getting the model info and running the hard drive manufacturer's diagnostics on it.

At a minimum, call DTV to inquire about adding another DVR (I'm think they'd happily replace your TiVo for a DTV branded one). They were ready to swap both of mine for free when the dial-up number went down.

[Insomniac]

IF you buy a new one, it's just a rental. If you turn it off, they ask for their receiver back, or ding you for $200 if you tossed it or don't send it back. It's really depends if you are going to be going HD anytime soon as what to do.

You could always TRY to sign up for the insurance and a month later call them up to have them repair/exchange it.

If you don't have to pay to send it back, what does it matter? If you don't have DTV, it's just a paper weight anyway. It is ridiculous to pay an upfront cost for something you wont even own though. You should get the equipment free.

[Brickman]

If you don't have to pay to send it back, what does it matter? If you don't have DTV, it's just a paper weight anyway. It is ridiculous to pay an upfront cost for something you wont even own though. You should get the equipment free.

I agree. I knew someone who's "leased" a machine that he bought at Best Buy, it died and he tossed it. Bought another with full rebate, then a month later he got a bill for his machine he tossed. They didn't tell him when he "bought" it or when he replaced it that it was leased and they wanted the old one back.

We have four, and own three.

Living room
Bedroom
Bedroom
Quiltroom

and an old receiver only for the RV.

[Insomniac]

I agree. I knew someone who's "leased" a machine that he bought at Best Buy, it died and he tossed it. Bought another with full rebate, then a month later he got a bill for his machine he tossed. They didn't tell him when he "bought" it or when he replaced it that it was leased and they wanted the old one back.

We have four, and own three.

Living room
Bedroom
Bedroom
Quiltroom

and an old receiver only for the RV.

For now, I have 3 that I own, but only use the 2 DirecTiVo's. I think when I get an HR20, it will be leased, but I'll need to double check.

[Warlock!]

The "squeaky wheel" deal, I guess.

I called DTV to see what I could do about getting my receiver replaced and the best she could do was $99. I mentioned I could get four new receivers for free from Dish Network, then she cut me off in mid sentence and said, "You just said the magic words... I'm putting you thru to customer retention."

When I got there I told her my situation and my thoughts about a move to Dish (I really wouldn't want to switch... I've been w/ DirecTV since 3/95), and she upgraded my flaky receiver plus my other Phillips 80 hr DVR to two new 125hr dual tuner models... for free. One of their dudes is gonna deliver 'em and install 'em next Friday. :cool:

The wife and I discussed some remodeling plans, which will also be the same time I upgrade to high-def... but that looks to be at least a couple years down the road. I'll "squeak" again about how good Dish Network's HD deals look at that time. ;)

[Warlock!]

However, all the above doesn't help me as far as saving the movies I have on the existing hard drive. How could I go about saving them (or trying to save them)? Can I somehow transfer them onto my computer's hard drive? And how the feck does one go aboot that ordeal? I'll put anyone's help to good use.

(And no... it's not porn I'm trying to save. It's a plethora of kiddie movies and a bunch of F1 Decade)

[Sean O'Gorman]

Dammit, I was going to make a joke about your HD being full of porn, but you beat me to the punch.

Nothing to add here other than that I'm getting U-verse installed tomorrow, anyone have any opinions on it?

[WickerBill]

Uverse gets absolutely horrid reviews. I'd suggest going to uverseusers.com and having a little read. The biggest complaint is the bandwidth can't handle even two HD streams at once: "ONLY 1 HDTV TV can be viewed in High Def at a time in the house. So If you're like us and have 3 High Def TV's that cost $4000.00 each and want to enjoy them, it's not going to happen with Uverse." --quote from the forums at uverseusers.com

Insomniac and others with DirecTV, they started a video-on-demand trial today with the HR20. Hook it up to your broadband and (even though it's still beta) you immediately have thousands of shows, movies, and even games/sports at your fingertips -- the vast majority of it free, at least for now, so long as you subscribe to the channel the program came from (i.e. if you sub to HBO, you can VOD all episodes of Inside the NFL; if you do not sub to HBO, you can buy specific episodes if you want).

This new ownership group for D* seems eager to continue and accelerate moves forward. I'm also impressed with how accurate the "rumors" on dbstalk.com are about upcoming HR20 features; they were only 2 days off on this beta. What makes me happy about that is the rumor for dual buffers is October. YES.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Well, right now I have 0 HDTVs. I'm going to get one sometime between November and February.

I don't like my cable options (ESPN comes in mono, the non-digital channels have low volume, fuzzy pictures, etc), and since my apartment is north facing, satellite isn't an option. I heard that U-verse has good SD picture, so I figured its worth a shot. No contract, so if it sucks, I can switch back to WOW.

[Insomniac]

However, all the above doesn't help me as far as saving the movies I have on the existing hard drive. How could I go about saving them (or trying to save them)? Can I somehow transfer them onto my computer's hard drive? And how the feck does one go aboot that ordeal? I'll put anyone's help to good use.

(And no... it's not porn I'm trying to save. It's a plethora of kiddie movies and a bunch of F1 Decade)

I'd recommend you go to http://www.dealdatabase.com/forum/ to learn about extracting shows from your TiVo.

[Insomniac]

Insomniac and others with DirecTV, they started a video-on-demand trial today with the HR20. Hook it up to your broadband and (even though it's still beta) you immediately have thousands of shows, movies, and even games/sports at your fingertips -- the vast majority of it free, at least for now, so long as you subscribe to the channel the program came from (i.e. if you sub to HBO, you can VOD all episodes of Inside the NFL; if you do not sub to HBO, you can buy specific episodes if you want).

This new ownership group for D* seems eager to continue and accelerate moves forward. I'm also impressed with how accurate the "rumors" on dbstalk.com are about upcoming HR20 features; they were only 2 days off on this beta. What makes me happy about that is the rumor for dual buffers is October. YES.

Pretty cool. I called to inquire about what upgrades I could get. They noted in my account what I negotiated.

HR20 for $20.00 shipping (I'll mention DISH said no shipping).
1 year of HD free
$10/off mo for 1 year
Free NFLST SuperFan

They balked at 1 year of free DVR service.

Unfortunately (poor research on my end), I found out there are no HD locals and I need an antenna. They said it would be $50 for an "outdoor antenna" with no promise I'd receive any channels. Antennaweb says NBC is going to de difficult to get (long story short, NBC sucks, their tower is located next to the ABC and FOX towers which should be no problem).

DISH lied and told me I'd get HD locals. I'll call DTV and try and negotiate some more. Locals are important. I'd guess 75% of the primetime shows I watch are on broadcast TV.

[Methanolandbrats]

Nothing to add here other than that I'm getting U-verse installed tomorrow, anyone have any opinions on it? U-verse is the GrandAm of television distribution ;)

[nrc]

UThis new ownership group for D* seems eager to continue and accelerate moves forward. I'm also impressed with how accurate the "rumors" on dbstalk.com are about upcoming HR20 features; they were only 2 days off on this beta. What makes me happy about that is the rumor for dual buffers is October. YES.
I scheduled our cable TV install with WOW for 9/5. 60 day money back guarantee. Pricing guaranteed until 2010. No commitment. I'll be ordering a cable card TiVo (not sure which yet), 30 day money back guarantee.

TiVo already has Amazon Unbox video downloads plus music and photos and a bunch of other features that DTV has been sitting on. We'll see what life is like in cableland. With everything guaranteed and no comittments we can always switch back if it's not what we want.

[WickerBill]

Probably obvious, but what's WOW?

[Sean O'Gorman]

wowway.com

[chop456]

Got the new stuff up and running. Just the first 2 days of HD brought me Le Mans and Son Volt live at the Orange Peel. :thumbup:

Giada Di Laurentis' head looks even bigger in hi-def. The NFL Network looks incredible too, and that's at 720 on a cheap projection deal. It must look sick on a high-end set.

[Warlock!]

Giada Di Laurentis' head looks even bigger in hi-def.
:rofl:

[Insomniac]

Sony is going to stop making RPTVs (SXRD).

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2007-12-27T061304Z_01_T204536_RTRUKOC_0_US-SONY.xml

That's another manufacturer dropping out of LCoS. Intel did a few years ago. Now only JVC is left. TI and DLP are winning the battle.

[Sean Malone]

Sony is going to stop making RPTVs (SXRD).

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2007-12-27T061304Z_01_T204536_RTRUKOC_0_US-SONY.xml

That's another manufacturer dropping out of LCoS. Intel did a few years ago. Now only JVC is left. TI and DLP are winning the battle.

I think when it comes right down to it the 'general consumer' doesn't care about what the technology is inside their TV as long as it fits their needs..i.e. mounts on a wall or is half the price than a competitor for the same def.

I'm finding that most people that I talk TV's with know '1080p' is what they want but yet don't know or even care what is generating that display nor do they understand 'source'. Why? marketing. Whether it's a tv ad or a sales guy in Best Buy. LCOS is arguably the best picture quality of any of the HD standards but who wants to quibble about it? Although, as an LCOS owner I have to honestly say that the 60" LCD's and plasmas I was looking at the other day are noticeably inferior IMO. But, they were cheaper and they mounted flat on a wall. That is why my brother in law got a plasma. He and his family are waaaaay more impressed that they have a TV on their wall than they are that I have an LCOS. Oh well.

[KLang]

That's another manufacturer dropping out of LCoS. Intel did a few years ago. Now only JVC is left. TI and DLP are winning the battle.

I don't think it's correct to say they have given up on LCOS. They are, so far at least, still making projectors with that technology. I will probably be buying one of those in 2008 in fact.

Sony is gambling that the market will move away from rear projection all together. If they are right, where will that leave TI and DLP?

[cameraman]

Sony is gambling that the market will move away from rear projection all together. There are a whole lot of people who are not interested in having a tv that takes 140 cubic feet out of a room no matter how cutting edge the picture may be.

[Insomniac]

I think when it comes right down to it the 'general consumer' doesn't care about what the technology is inside their TV as long as it fits their needs..i.e. mounts on a wall or is half the price than a competitor for the same def.

I'm finding that most people that I talk TV's with know '1080p' is what they want but yet don't know or even care what is generating that display nor do they understand 'source'. Why? marketing. Whether it's a tv ad or a sales guy in Best Buy. LCOS is arguably the best picture quality of any of the HD standards but who wants to quibble about it? Although, as an LCOS owner I have to honestly say that the 60" LCD's and plasmas I was looking at the other day are noticeably inferior IMO. But, they were cheaper and they mounted flat on a wall. That is why my brother in law got a plasma. He and his family are waaaaay more impressed that they have a TV on their wall than they are that I have an LCOS. Oh well.

I think Plasma looks better than any projection technology personally.

[Insomniac]

I don't think it's correct to say they have given up on LCOS. They are, so far at least, still making projectors with that technology. I will probably be buying one of those in 2008 in fact.

Sony is gambling that the market will move away from rear projection all together. If they are right, where will that leave TI and DLP?

I thought the market for projectors was even smaller than RPTV's. If that is the case, how money are they going to invest in SXRD? For 60" screens and up, RPTV is still the cheapest option. TI and DLP will be OK in RPTVs for now.

[Sean Malone]

I think Plasma looks better than any projection technology personally.

Strange, I think plasma looks the worst. The screen door effect during fast action is like finger nails on chalk board. I keep reading that the newer plasmas have eliminated this issue, but I still see it. Don't plasmas get real hot and thus have a short life span?

[Sean Malone]

I spent a few minutes perusing a few AV boards who are commenting on this announcement. Most mirror what we have said in that "people want TV's to hang on their wall".
the thing that irks me is that when I bought my Sony SXRD RPTV in Jan of '06 it was the "featured" model at Best Buy. Every single "tv" sales person agreed it was 'the best', and the dozens of reviews I read confirmed my purchase was a sound decision. With this announcement the attitude is that RPTV's are archaic and utter crap. In other words "good riddance". So my 24 month old TV is junk. :( I did have to have the light engine replaced. :D

Hopefully Mitsu will make that 4" deep LCOS RP that they said they might.

Just another reason to hate Sony (and I do). :)

[cameraman]

So my 24 month old TV is junk.

Huh?

It still works
It still has that top of the line picture

That they don't sell it anymore makes it junk????

So we should just ship every Ferrari 250 GTO off to the crusher because they don't make it anymore?

[Insomniac]

Strange, I think plasma looks the worst. The screen door effect during fast action is like finger nails on chalk board. I keep reading that the newer plasmas have eliminated this issue, but I still see it. Don't plasmas get real hot and thus have a short life span?

I just got a 50" 720p Samsung (not the best, wish I bought the Pioneer instead) and I don't see the screen door effect until I'm within 2-3' of the screen. I'm not sure what fast action would have to do with it since the "grid" is in a fixed position. I have never heard anything about them being too hot and having a shorter life span either. Half brightness on mine is 60,000 hours. The most recent Panasonic models are now supposed to be 100,000 hours. I think my set averages around 200W. What are the bulbs in RPTV's rated at?

[Sean Malone]

Huh?

It still works
It still has that top of the line picture

That they don't sell it anymore makes it junk????

So we should just ship every Ferrari 250 GTO off to the crusher because they don't make it anymore?


I'm just a trend buyer. :D

[Sean Malone]

I just got a 50" 720p Samsung (not the best, wish I bought the Pioneer instead) and I don't see the screen door effect until I'm withing 2-3' of the screen. I'm not sure what what fast action would have to do with it since the "grid" is in a fixed position. I have never heard anything about them being too hot and having a shorter life span either. Half brightness on mine is 60,000 hours. The most recent Panasonic models are now supposed to be 100,000 hours. I think my set averages around 200W. What are the bulbs in RPTV's rated at?

From what I've heard the average lifespan of the bulb (which runs $200-$300) lasts anywhere from 2 to 5 years.

I read that there is a class action lawsuit against Sony due to their SXRD's and their light engine replacement (maybe I can get in on that one!). That may have had something to do with their decision to can their RP's.
But I think consumer demand is more logical. Heck, even I want a TV I can hang on the wall. For as much as my SXRD ($3500) cost I could have gotten a decent plasma.

[Insomniac]

From what I've heard the average lifespan of the bulb (which runs $200-$300) lasts anywhere from 2 to 5 years.

Sorry, I meant the wattage on the bulb to kind of get an idea of how much power a RPTV requires.

[Sean Malone]

Sorry, I meant the wattage on the bulb to kind of get an idea of how much power a RPTV requires.

Some guy on a blog said it's a 120 watt bulb. I'll look in my manual when I get home.

[KLang]

Sony is going to stop making RPTVs (SXRD).

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=technologyNews&storyid=2007-12-27T061304Z_01_T204536_RTRUKOC_0_US-SONY.xml

That's another manufacturer dropping out of LCoS. Intel did a few years ago. Now only JVC is left. TI and DLP are winning the battle.

Another article about this. (http://www.twice.com/article/CA6514401.html) Also the numbers to explain why:

DisplaySearch, an NPD Group company, forecasts North American sales of 1.6 million rear projection sets in 2007, down from 3.1 million in 2006. The firm is calling for total rear projection sales of about 670,000 in 2008.

No wonder everyone is getting out early.

[Indy]

So, I have a question. Assume complete ignorance here.

Are Sony and Sharp still the best LCD's? Are all of their models just as good as the others? I am looking to buy a couple, probably 37 inch.

[Elmo T]

So, I have a question. Assume complete ignorance here.



I'll add my own :confused: ...

I've read up and plan to buy something soon. I still don't get the plasma vs. LCD thing. LCD newer technology = better? But plasma has better picture?

Also, will coughing up the extra bucks from 1080p really make a difference? FWIW, we've made the switch to Verizon's FiOS TV.

[Insomniac]

So, I have a question. Assume complete ignorance here.

Are Sony and Sharp still the best LCD's? Are all of their models just as good as the others? I am looking to buy a couple, probably 37 inch.

I would say the Samsung LCDs are highly regarded as well.

[Insomniac]

I'll add my own :confused: ...

I've read up and plan to buy something soon. I still don't get the plasma vs. LCD thing. LCD newer technology = better? But plasma has better picture?

Also, will coughing up the extra bucks from 1080p really make a difference? FWIW, we've made the switch to Verizon's FiOS TV.

Every HD technology has advantages and disadvantages. I chose plasma over LCD because of ghosting in high action on LCDs, deeper blacks on plasma and plasma was cheaper in the size I was looking (50"). LCDs have less glare (no glass) and are usually brighter. They do not exhibit image retention or run a risk of screen burn-in compared to plasma.

720p/1080p. Whether you see any difference depends on the screen size and how close you sit. If you have a TV that's the same size with the same features, you pay more for 1080p. As I said, it may or may not be worth it.

[Sean Malone]

I'll add my own :confused: ...

I've read up and plan to buy something soon. I still don't get the plasma vs. LCD thing. LCD newer technology = better? But plasma has better picture?

Also, will coughing up the extra bucks from 1080p really make a difference? FWIW, we've made the switch to Verizon's FiOS TV.

Like we've been discussing in this thread today, a lot depends on what you your needs are. How big do you want to go? DO you have the room for the size you want to get? Remember, sitting four feet in front of a 60" TV is silly. Are you going to mount it on a wall? Are you going to run a 1080P HD-DVD player into via HDMI or be content with any of the HD content you get from cable/dish?

The majority of consumers can't tell the difference between 720p, 1080i or 1080p. Hell, my wife thinks standard DVD's look HD on our TV. You really need to look at a lot of different TV's before you can start to see the differences. I could never live with a current LCD as my main HD (I have two small ones in other rooms) because all I see are the pixels and it's distracting. LCD's are more affordable than plasma.

Quality has a lot to do with the video source. Older movies that are reformated into HD aren't the same as one that is filmed with a HD camera. Cable companies, dish companies and HD-DVD's send different source even depending on the cables you use.

Basically, my best advice is to buy the TV that fits your room best. Not too small, not too big. Go to the HDTV mega-store, pick out the TV you like and then ask the kid to show you if they have the brightness turned all the way up. Then roll your eyes when he tells you they do that to compensate for the room lights. BS.

Samsung is making good stuff these days. Check out this excellent HDTV Guide by them.

http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/campaign/university/hdtv/module_2_1.jsp

[Sean Malone]

Every HD technology has advantages and disadvantages. I chose plasma over LCD because of ghosting in high action on LCDs, deeper blacks on plasma and plasma was cheaper in the size I was looking (50"). LCDs have less glare (no glass) and are usually brighter. They do not exhibit image retention or run a risk of screen burn-in compared to plasma.

720p/1080p. Whether you see any difference depends on the screen size and how close you sit. If you have a TV that's the same size with the same features, you pay more for 1080p. As I said, it may or may not be worth it.

You will get burned out pixels on an LCD which bugs the crap out of me. I've fixed some with a special CD but still....

[KLang]

Also, will coughing up the extra bucks from 1080p really make a difference?

I think the answer is probably no. Actually though the manufacturers have made the decision for us. I think a year from now we will only see 1080P on the shelves. If you are in the market today and the only difference between two sets is 1080i/P, I doubt the 1080i set will look any different.

[Sean Malone]

I think the answer is probably no. Actually though the manufacturers have made the decision for us. I think a year from now we will only see 1080P on the shelves. If you are in the market today and the only difference between two sets is 1080i/P, I doubt the 1080i set will look any different.

Yep, and again it's up to your source feed and there are variables depending on who/what is supplying the feed and the cables you are using.

You can't go wrong with a 1080P HDTV running a HDTV or BluRay DVD player via HDMI.

Many HDTV's upsample anyway. Basically, if it looks like HD, smells like HD, and makes you feel warm and fuzzy, it's a 'good thing'.

[Insomniac]

You will get burned out pixels on an LCD which bugs the crap out of me. I've fixed some with a special CD but still....

You can have dead/stuck pixels on plasma as well. That's why I bought local with a liberal exchange policy. I would swap it if any were dead/stuck. I've had two 50" plasmas and both had no dead/stuck pixels. I think the defect rate is really low, but if you get one like that, you don't care what the odds were.

Also, at the viewing distance and depending on your eye sight you may not see the dead/stuck pixel. And DLP and SXRD can suffer from stuck/dead pixels/mirrors.

[Insomniac]

I think the answer is probably no. Actually though the manufacturers have made the decision for us. I think a year from now we will only see 1080P on the shelves. If you are in the market today and the only difference between two sets is 1080i/P, I doubt the 1080i set will look any different.

You shouldn't have to decide between 1080i/1080p. Avoid 1080i displays because all of the HD technologies (LCD, plasma, DLP and SXRD/D-ILA) are all capable of refreshing the screen at the same time. The manufacturer is doing something odd if their display is 1920x1080 and not progressive.

[Sean Malone]

You can have dead/stuck pixels on plasma as well. That's why I bought local with a liberal exchange policy. I would swap it if any were dead/stuck. I've had two 50" plasmas and both had no dead/stuck pixels. I think the defect rate is really low, but if you get one like that, you don't care what the odds were.

Also, at the viewing distance and depending on your eye sight you may not see the dead/stuck pixel. And DLP and SXRD can suffer from stuck/dead pixels/mirrors.

True, but my experience is that LCD produce more stuck pixels than the other formats.

[KLang]

You shouldn't have to decide between 1080i/1080p. Avoid 1080i displays because all of the HD technologies (LCD, plasma, DLP and SXRD/D-ILA) are all capable of refreshing the screen at the same time. The manufacturer is doing something odd if their display is 1920x1080 and not progressive.

The 1080i vs 1080P question is only on the input side. I'm pretty sure all fixed pixel displays, pretty much everything now, is progressive.

[Insomniac]

The 1080i vs 1080P question is only on the input side. I'm pretty sure all fixed pixel displays, pretty much everything now, is progressive.

You'd think, but somehow they aren't: Hitachi 1080i Plasma (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8256638&type=product&id=1169512781854&ref=06&loc=01&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=8256638)

Most sets will deinterlace 1080i and make it 1080p though. Nothing broadcast on TV will be over 1080i for the foreseeable future. Right now, Hi-Def DVDs (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) and video game consoles (PS3 and Xbox 360). Note that on video games, they are starting to show up and not all games are 1080p. Check the box for movies to see what resolution the movie is in as well.

[Insomniac]

True, but my experience is that LCD produce more stuck pixels than the other formats.

I've had stuck pixels on my laptop LCD. "Massaged" them out. Fortunately, I've been lucky enough to avoid dead pixels on my monitors/displays and my TV (but it has other issues).

[Sean Malone]

You'd think, but somehow they aren't: Hitachi 1080i Plasma (http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8256638&type=product&id=1169512781854&ref=06&loc=01&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=8256638)

Most sets will deinterlace 1080i and make it 1080p though. Nothing broadcast on TV will be over 1080i for the foreseeable future. Right now, Hi-Def DVDs (HD-DVD and Blu-Ray) and video game consoles (PS3 and Xbox 360). Note that on video games, they are starting to show up and not all games are 1080p. Check the box for movies to see what resolution the movie is in as well.

An example of how things get convoluted: I'm running my Xbox 360 into my SXRD via component. I'm only receiving 1080i because the Sony SXRD only accepts a true 1080p via HDMI. I'd have to buy the new 360 Elite or a PS3.
I also can't go with a VGA like others can because my Sony limits VGA input to 1024.
Although, since the TV is a native 1080p, it is taking that 1080i and displaying it progressively.

[oddlycalm]

LCD vs plasma - Plasma has better blacks and the edge in absolute picture quality but LCD is getting better each generation. Plasma is better in low light and LCD is better in situations with more ambient light. Plasma creates more heat than LCD, but not by a lot. LCD does not suffer from burn-in while plasma still does to some degree, particularly in the first 200hrs of operation.

I'd not look at any further than Pioneer for plasma and either the Sony XBR's or the Samsung models with LED back lights for LCD. These sets are at the top of the price range but it's too competitive for them to charge too much of a premium. Each company has lesser models in their product line. You will see Sony XBR3 (last years), XBR4 and XBR5, then they have the W models at the low end. The XBR4 and XBR5 share the same display and only differ in features while the W line has a lesser display.

The falling cost of LCD and plasma panels is what did in RPTV in the under 55" range and front projection is doing the same on the larger end to a lesser degree. Panel production is very highly automated, so once they got the yield levels to where they needed to be they were able to crank up the production volume up and the per-panel cost plummeted.

oc

[Insomniac]

An example of how things get convoluted: I'm running my Xbox 360 into my SXRD via component. I'm only receiving 1080i because the Sony SXRD only accepts a true 1080p via HDMI. I'd have to buy the new 360 Elite or a PS3.
I also can't go with a VGA like others can because my Sony limits VGA input to 1024.
Although, since the TV is a native 1080p, it is taking that 1080i and displaying it progressively.

To make it more convoluted, the preference for games is 1080p60 vs. 1080i. With movies filmed at 24fps, It doesn't matter if you get it in 1080i or 1080p because both will contain all the possible information. It gets even mopre confusing when you start talking about 24 fps, telecining, etc. :)

[Insomniac]

LCD vs plasma - Plasma has better blacks and the edge in absolute picture quality but LCD is getting better each generation. Plasma is better in low light and LCD is better in situations with more ambient light. Plasma creates more heat than LCD, but not by a lot. LCD does not suffer from burn-in while plasma still does to some degree, particularly in the first 200hrs of operation.

I'd not look at any further than Pioneer for plasma and either the Sony XBR's or the Samsung models with LED back lights for LCD. These sets are at the top of the price range but it's too competitive for them to charge too much of a premium. Each company has lesser models in their product line. You will see Sony XBR3 (last years), XBR4 and XBR5, then they have the W models at the low end. The XBR4 and XBR5 share the same display and only differ in features while the W line has a lesser display.

The falling cost of LCD and plasma panels is what did in RPTV in the under 55" range and front projection is doing the same on the larger end to a lesser degree. Panel production is very highly automated, so once they got the yield levels to where they needed to be they were able to crank up the production volume up and the per-panel cost plummeted.

oc

Great summary. It's a shame cost is usually a factor for most. :) Although, I can't believe the Pioneers dropped so much in the last 3 months.

[Sean Malone]

Great summary. It's a shame cost is usually a factor for most. :) Although, I can't believe the Pioneers dropped so much in the last 3 months.

Competition is fierce. My wife and I were amazed at how many different manufactures had multiple models on display at BEst Buy recently.

[oddlycalm]

It's a shame cost is usually a factor for most. :) Although, I can't believe the Pioneers dropped so much in the last 3 months. Price is always going to be a big factor, but the way the prices are coming down as the volume scales up it's probably just a matter of how long a person wants to wait. As you say, the prices on the Pioneer plasma sets have come down quite a lot in the past three months.

One phenomena that I've been surprised by is that the usual low cost sources like One Call (http://www.onecall.com/) are considerably higher than the local guys. After seeing that a couple of the smaller local stores were beating big chain outfits on the best quality models I discovered they belong to a national buying coop for independent stores that has serious purchasing power. Old news to anyone in the biz, I just wasn't aware of it. This is the kind of purchase best done locally, so that was a good thing to know.

oc

[dando]

One phenomena that I've been surprised by is that the usual low cost sources like One Call (http://www.onecall.com/) are considerably higher than the local guys. After seeing that a couple of the smaller local stores were beating big chain outfits on the best quality models I discovered they belong to a national buying coop for independent stores that has serious purchasing power. Old news to anyone in the biz, I just wasn't aware of it. This is the kind of purchase best done locally, so that was a good thing to know.

oc

1Call/Huppins went downhill several years ago. I purchased a bunch of AV bits and pieces from them over the years, but 3-4 years ago they stopped being competitive. Not sure what happened to force that shift. :\ AVS Power Buys have replaced 1Call. :thumbup:

BTW, good summation on LCD vs. Plasma, OC. I'm in the DLP camp, tho, as the form factor doesn't mean as much, and the PQ is equal to LCD if not better, IMHO. Plus, RBE doesn't bother me with v.2 chipset.

-Kevin

[grungex]

^^^^

Needs more acronyms.

[cart7]

As someone who works in the repair side of this business I can give you a little insight.


Although, I can't believe the Pioneers dropped so much in the last 3 months.

Cause and effect. The quality has dropped along with the price. Working with Pioneer tech support is trying at best. Arrogant A-holes to say the least. Then try and get parts for them. In order to compete with the imports the major manufacturers are having to cut corners, both on the consumer support end, the tech end and unfortunately, in the engineering side of new products.

A couple others. Sony is supposedly dropping out of the rear projection LCOS market and only going to focus on LCD's. I stress the supposedly. I have not heard this from Sony directly but given the massive number of problems they've been having with their optical engines in most of the sets they've sold the past 3 years it wouldn't surprise me.

This is fact, Fujitsu, a higher end Plasma manufacturer is calling it quits as far as consumer sales and their plasma line. Decreasing ROI. With the influx of cheap plasma and LCD imports it's tough to get anyone to spend $3 - 4k on a quality Plasma or LCD TV.

The overall landscape of the business seems to have most of the major players leaning towards LCD technology with Plasma slowly being phased out. Rear projection technology, either DLP and LCOS also don't seem to be long term if they can get the BIG LCD panel production costs down and the quality improved.

In any case, I still believe even LCD is not an end game in all this. The technology has been around a long time but it has issues, not the least of which is pixel lag (refresh rate), that will never be completely solved because it's inherit in the technology. SED and some sort of OLED (organic light emitting diode) technology will probably win out with SED owning the high end equipment and OLED the rest. SED is out there, Toshiba is supposedly going to start an SED panel production plant. Yep, the cost is high (much like the costs of plasma's 4 - 5 years ago) but the picture quality will blow LCD and plasma away and use less energy.

[Sean Malone]

As someone who works in the repair side of this business I can give you a little insight.



Cause and effect. The quality has dropped along with the price. Working with Pioneer tech support is trying at best. Arrogant A-holes to say the least. Then try and get parts for them. In order to compete with the imports the major manufacturers are having to cut corners, both on the consumer support end, the tech end and unfortunately, in the engineering side of new products.

A couple others. Sony is supposedly dropping out of the rear projection LCOS market and only going to focus on LCD's. I stress the supposedly. I have not heard this from Sony directly but given the massive number of problems they've been having with their optical engines in most of the sets they've sold the past 3 years it wouldn't surprise me.

This is fact, Fujitsu, a higher end Plasma manufacturer is calling it quits as far as consumer sales and their plasma line. Decreasing ROI. With the influx of cheap plasma and LCD imports it's tough to get anyone to spend $3 - 4k on a quality Plasma or LCD TV.

The overall landscape of the business seems to have most of the major players leaning towards LCD technology with Plasma slowly being phased out. Rear projection technology, either DLP and LCOS also don't seem to be long term if they can get the BIG LCD panel production costs down and the quality improved.

In any case, I still believe even LCD is not an end game in all this. The technology has been around a long time but it has issues, not the least of which is pixel lag (refresh rate), that will never be completely solved because it's inherit in the technology. SED and some sort of OLED (organic light emitting diode) technology will probably win out with SED owning the high end equipment and OLED the rest. SED is out there, Toshiba is supposedly going to start an SED panel production plant. Yep, the cost is high (much like the costs of plasma's 4 - 5 years ago) but the picture quality will blow LCD and plasma away and use less energy.

Interesting!:thumbup:

[Insomniac]

As someone who works in the repair side of this business I can give you a little insight.



Cause and effect. The quality has dropped along with the price. Working with Pioneer tech support is trying at best. Arrogant A-holes to say the least. Then try and get parts for them. In order to compete with the imports the major manufacturers are having to cut corners, both on the consumer support end, the tech end and unfortunately, in the engineering side of new products.

A couple others. Sony is supposedly dropping out of the rear projection LCOS market and only going to focus on LCD's. I stress the supposedly. I have not heard this from Sony directly but given the massive number of problems they've been having with their optical engines in most of the sets they've sold the past 3 years it wouldn't surprise me.

This is fact, Fujitsu, a higher end Plasma manufacturer is calling it quits as far as consumer sales and their plasma line. Decreasing ROI. With the influx of cheap plasma and LCD imports it's tough to get anyone to spend $3 - 4k on a quality Plasma or LCD TV.

The overall landscape of the business seems to have most of the major players leaning towards LCD technology with Plasma slowly being phased out. Rear projection technology, either DLP and LCOS also don't seem to be long term if they can get the BIG LCD panel production costs down and the quality improved.

In any case, I still believe even LCD is not an end game in all this. The technology has been around a long time but it has issues, not the least of which is pixel lag (refresh rate), that will never be completely solved because it's inherit in the technology. SED and some sort of OLED (organic light emitting diode) technology will probably win out with SED owning the high end equipment and OLED the rest. SED is out there, Toshiba is supposedly going to start an SED panel production plant. Yep, the cost is high (much like the costs of plasma's 4 - 5 years ago) but the picture quality will blow LCD and plasma away and use less energy.

SED seems like vaporware (for lack of a better word) at this point. Canon had to drop out because of litigation. SED keeps getting delayed by Toshiba. OLED seems to be the next thing. I hear the main issue is longevity of the blue pixels right now. It certainly looks like LCD will push plasma out solely on price. LED backlighting should help in color reproduction and black level. I agree, I'm not so sure they'll be able to ever get rid of ghosting.

As for Pioneer, I'm still hoping I can get Samsung to buy back my plasma (long story) and get a Kuro. :)

[oddlycalm]

Thanks for the insight Cart7. Pretty much what I've heard, though without the specifics. I agree that LCD is not the end game, but it appears SED and OLED are a way off. I was having discussions about both with regard to monitors 3yrs ago and we're still waiting. I agree with you and Insomniac that some level of ghosting in LCD displays is a given.

Good luck in your quest Insomniac. I've spent some time with the 50" and 60" Kuro sets and they set the bar pretty high.

oc

[Insomniac]

Good luck in your quest Insomniac. I've spent some time with the 50" and 60" Kuro sets and they set the bar pretty high.

Thanks. We'll see how it plays out.

[dando]

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0632679620080106?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&rpc=22&sp=true


Japanese electronics maker Sharp Corp will begin selling a 108-inch LCD television later this year, executives told the Consumer Electronics Show on Sunday.

:eek:

Jeebus! That's bigger than my screen in my theater room. :saywhat:

BC$ Championship tomorry and CE$ this week...I'm in heaven. :thumbup: :cool:

http://ces.cnet.com/?tag=nefd.only

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

http://www.reuters.com/article/technologyNews/idUSN0632679620080106?feedType=RSS&feedName=technologyNews&rpc=22&sp=true



:eek:

Jeebus! That's bigger than my screen in my theater room. :saywhat:

9 mm thick, infinite contrast 50" Pioneer plasma is way cooler. :)

http://www.engadgethd.com/2008/01/06/pioneers-project-kuro-the-9mm-thick-infinite-contrast-50-inch/

[SteveH]

Holy crap is right

http://gizmodo.com/341633/holy-crap-first-150+inch-lifescreen-plasma-photos

:thumbup:

[KLang]

Holy crap is right

http://gizmodo.com/341633/holy-crap-first-150+inch-lifescreen-plasma-photos

:thumbup:

Can you imagine how much power that thing would suck down? :eek:

[dando]

Holy crap is right

http://gizmodo.com/341633/holy-crap-first-150+inch-lifescreen-plasma-photos

:thumbup:

Damn. :eek: Just build the house around that sucker. :gomer:

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

Can you imagine how much power that thing would suck down? :eek:

I'm sure it will need its own circuit breaker.

[dando]

I'm sure it will need its own circuit breaker.

And its own AC unit to keep it and the environs cool. :saywhat:

-Kevin

[Insomniac]

And its own AC unit to keep it and the environs cool. :saywhat:

-Kevin

It's recommended for Canada to serve as your home heating system. :gomer:

[cameraman]

Show me high quality plasma displays priced at $10- an inch and I will be impressed. This is just silliness.

[cart7]

Can you imagine how much power that thing would suck down? :eek:

Power up a few of those suckers and this global warming deal becomes very real! :tony:

[oddlycalm]

Can you imagine how much power that thing would suck down? :eek: Several times more than a front projector. Outside of commercial applications a 150" plasma panel is novelty.

The key to all the CES hoopla is to get enough attention to get noticed, hence the super thin and giant panels. If flat panels become a commodity the big Japanese companies stand to lose the market to the cheap no names.

oc

[WickerBill]

Several times more than a front projector. Outside of commercial applications a 150" plasma panel is novelty.


oc


Just FYI, my opinion is that this quote by you will be eerily similar to Bill Gates' "640k ought to be enough for anybody" ten years from now...

:)

[nrc]

Just FYI, my opinion is that this quote by you will be eerily similar to Bill Gates' "640k ought to be enough for anybody" ten years from now...

:)

"They say when you have your second wall-screen it's like having your family all around you."

[Gnam]

"They say when you have your second wall-screen it's like having your family all around you."
Word. :(

[oddlycalm]

Just FYI, my opinion is that this quote by you will be eerily similar to Bill Gates' "640k ought to be enough for anybody" ten years from now...

:) No doubt about it. When they can crank out large OLED panels 1mm thick in rolls for minor money and all it takes is peeling off the backing paper and sticking it to the drywall nobody will remember what a front projector was.

oc

[extramundane]

I'm sure it will need its own circuit breaker.

According to a friend covering CES for Circuit City:


Now, I talked with a buddy of mine at Panasonic about the little bro, the 103-incher, and he tells me that it weighs 485 pounds, requires a dedicated 220v outlet, and costs $70,000. Oh, and according to building codes, your wall has to be rated to handle over two tonsbefore Panasonic will install it. Now, that's the 103" TV. The 150" plasma is 11 feet across. Let me say that again. It's eleven feet across!

[Sean Malone]

According to a friend covering CES for Circuit City:

And yet it is amayzing how quickly the costs come down from a prototype.

The SXRD prototype was something like $90K and considered a pradigm in HDTV. Just 2 years later I paid $3500 for one.

[Insomniac]

And yet it is amayzing how quickly the costs come down from a prototype.

The SXRD prototype was something like $90K and considered a pradigm in HDTV. Just 2 years later I paid $3500 for one.

I don't think 103" plasmas will drop to $3500 in 2 years. :)

[chop456]

The lamp in my E-Series 3 LCD Sony projection went kablooie yesterday, 2 years to the day after I bought the set. $109 paid to a sketchy website that will probably steal my identity and never send me my bulb and I should be back in the saddle in a few days. :D

"Mr. 456? This is American Express calling. Did you buy an airplane and a goat in Lagos, Nigeria earlier today?"

[G.]

The lamp in my E-Series 3 LCD Sony projection went kablooie yesterday, 2 years to the day after I bought the set. $109 paid to a sketchy website that will probably steal my identity and never send me my bulb and I should be back in the saddle in a few days. :D

"Mr. 456? This is American Express calling. Did you buy an airplane and a goat in Lagos, Nigeria earlier today?"

You're kinda brave. I wouldn't buy an airplane or a goat without getting some offcamber advice first.

Oddlycalm has some experience with both of those, I think.

:gomer:

[JLMannin]

I sprung for the extra $50 bucks or so and purchased my replacement bulb from Sony. For me, the piece of mind was worth the extra money.

My bulb lasted a little over two years.

[chop456]

The bulb I needed was $95 more from Sony and I would have had to leave my couch to go get it. :D

So unless it only lasts 1/2 as long... :irked:

[dando]

The lamp in my E-Series 3 LCD Sony projection went kablooie yesterday, 2 years to the day after I bought the set. $109 paid to a sketchy website that will probably steal my identity and never send me my bulb and I should be back in the saddle in a few days. :D

"Mr. 456? This is American Express calling. Did you buy an airplane and a goat in Lagos, Nigeria earlier today?"

I bought my first replacement for my Sammy DLP from a official Sammy supplier, but the second one I bought on eBay for ~$100 less. So far so good. ~6 years, two bulbs. OOTH, the Mitsu front projector in the theater room went toes up in <2 years (and there is no hour counter to determine how long it has been used, but it had to be less than 2000 hours). :irked: :saywhat:

-Kevin

[chop456]

The bulb showed up today (Wednesday), after bring ordered Sunday. Well packed and everything. I'll post the website after I'm satisfied that the bulb is decent. $95 is $95.

Still no goats or airplaines on my Amex acct. :thumbup:

[nrc]

The bulb showed up today (Wednesday), after bring ordered Sunday. Well packed and everything. I'll post the website after I'm satisfied that the bulb is decent. $95 is $95.

Still no goats or airplaines on my Amex acct. :thumbup:

Still no report on this?

I noticed our TV had gone quiet late last night so I went into the TV room to find the red "LAMP" light flashing - 10 hours to kick-off. This is a Sony 50" Grand Wega rear projection unit circa 2005. I can't complain about nine years on the original lamp but I have to wonder if Sony starts sending out self-destruct signals on play-off weekends. :irked:

I opted to order the genuine Sony bulb for $80; If it allows me to put off a new TV for another year or two I'll be happy.

Coincidentally we had mulled the idea of a new TV for Christmas. I decided to hold off mainly because I wanted to wait a while for the UHD market to settle down. Rather than make a snap decision on a purchase that I normally ponder for months I decided to find another way.

So it was off to Best Buy for a deal on a 27" display with HDMI input. I thought I might press one of our current computer displays into service, but they only have DVI. TiVo requires HDCP to appease our digital content overlords.

Watching the game on a 27" was not bad when sitting three feet away. It's funny to think that 27" was the size of the "big screen" CRT that we replaced with the 50" rear projection nine years ago. It was great for watching laser discs.

[KLang]

Finally gave up on the 55" SXRD last year. Distinct yellow cast to the display and a new lamp didn't change it. I think my ex gave it to whomever would pick it up.

I've moved on to Samsung LCD. If you want a new display but don't want to go 4K yet there are still some Samsung F8000 series displays available. According to reviewers, one of the best 1080P edge-lit LCD's made. Love mine.