View Full Version : Y'all might want to take cover...
Racing Truth
08-13-07, 01:12 PM
B/c Gordon Kirby drops the equivalent of several bombs HERE. (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2007/the_way_it_is_no81.html)
TU Homer
08-13-07, 01:20 PM
B/c Gordon Kirby drops the equivalent of several bombs HERE. (http://www.gordonkirby.com/categories/columns/theway/2007/the_way_it_is_no81.html)
Janny S. brought that one up to me. Assmunch.
Either these guys are pissed because the sanction kicked them in the gut, or they're telling the unbridled truth. I can't tell, but till GK wrote, I have been hearing about the champs outdrawing the lms.
-TU
ferrarigod
08-13-07, 01:29 PM
pathetic. the 4 people covering the races are now not interested in dealing with the management. smoothe job CC. but at least champ car charlie is here to save us. :rofl: he's like bif with worse grammer,,,,,,,
Me thinks they're banding together to fight the supposed mistreatment of journo's by CCWS. In otherwords they've got an axe to grind because they ain't getting free tix anymore and the freebies ain't free anymore. Euro races that can't get comp'd anymore. no work=no money.
Folks that got their start with RIS back in the early 90's know what it's like to PAY to work. You'd get a credential, access to drivers and maybe a sandwich and a cold drink (if you were lucky). No one reimbursed travel expenses, paid for meals, film or processing. You slept in your car and you liked it after driving 4 to 6 hours....you paid for the gas and the breakdowns (and speeding tickets).
So, while I can sympathize I also have a hard time feeling bad for them in this economy. GK and RM should focus their anger....at Tony George. 1995 looked bright and everyone was getting fed. Now.......NOT.
Hesketh
08-13-07, 01:56 PM
Me thinks they're banding together to fight the supposed mistreatment of journo's by CCWS. In otherwords they've got an axe to grind because they ain't getting free tix anymore and the freebies ain't free anymore. Euro races that can't get comp'd anymore. no work=no money.
Folks that got their start with RIS back in the early 90's know what it's like to PAY to work. You'd get a credential, access to drivers and maybe a sandwich and a cold drink (if you were lucky). No one reimbursed travel expenses, paid for meals, film or processing. You slept in your car and you liked it after driving 4 to 6 hours....you paid for the gas and the breakdowns (and speeding tickets).
So, while I can sympathize I also have a hard time feeling bad for them in this economy. GK and RM should focus their anger....at Tony George. 1995 looked bright and everyone was getting fed. Now.......NOT.
Oh brudder! You guys need to get over the free meals bit. So a journalist gets fed on a race weekend: big deal. That's not why they do the job and it's small compensation for what they do.
Stop looking for the great journalist conspiracy. RM and GK (among others that includes Steve Horne) are long-time racers with a wealth of experience and they're writing what they see ... and don't see. Anyone who's been around for as long as they have knows it ain't what it used to be and it ain't even healthy.
Continuing to blast TG is pointless; GF and KK are in control of their series and there's plenty of blame right there. Sorry if the realists are pointing fingers at your supposed saviours, but those guys deserve a fair measure.
Look, mate, OW is in dire straits right now, and Champ Car continues to shoot itself in the foot.
So if you want to continue reading my work you'll have to come to this site because neither Robin nor I have the inclination or interest to work for such an apparently cash-strapped, narrow-minded organization.
CCWS has cut back, these guys have refused to work for them. Conspiracy? No, just two guys that ain't getting paid anymore.....they even say it. You're looking at the wrong guy if you think I worship the "supposed saviors" as you put it.
As for Mr. George, he's the sole and only remaining reason the sport flounders. Blame whoever you want but he's worthless and proves it every day. If he's the last man standing OW is dead in a big way.
trauma1
08-13-07, 03:04 PM
well at least no RM bashing thread at CCF today, kirby has that honor, papertard to the rescue, i mean champcar charlie
trauma1
08-13-07, 03:06 PM
Me thinks they're banding together to fight the supposed mistreatment of journo's by CCWS. In otherwords they've got an axe to grind because they ain't getting free tix anymore and the freebies ain't free anymore. Euro races that can't get comp'd anymore. no work=no money.
Folks that got their start with RIS back in the early 90's know what it's like to PAY to work. You'd get a credential, access to drivers and maybe a sandwich and a cold drink (if you were lucky). No one reimbursed travel expenses, paid for meals, film or processing. You slept in your car and you liked it after driving 4 to 6 hours....you paid for the gas and the breakdowns (and speeding tickets).
So, while I can sympathize I also have a hard time feeling bad for them in this economy. GK and RM should focus their anger....at Tony George. 1995 looked bright and everyone was getting fed. Now.......NOT.
waiting for your hardcard also:gomer: :gomer:
Spicoli
08-13-07, 03:06 PM
Wow.:shakehead
Racing Truth
08-13-07, 03:07 PM
well at least no RM bashing thread at CCF today, kirby has that honor, papertard to the rescue, i mean champcar charlie
Read the deluded greatness here. (http://www.champcarfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46839):tony:
trauma1
08-13-07, 03:10 PM
Read the deluded greatness here. (http://www.champcarfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46839):tony:but, but Johnson was never fired:rofl: :rofl:
waiting for your hardcard also:gomer: :gomer:
BwahhaHahhahha!:rofl: Who would want one now....
trauma1
08-13-07, 03:22 PM
BwahhaHahhahha!:rofl: Who would want one now....
by the way things are going most of CCF are vieing :gomer: for one
Hesketh
08-13-07, 03:22 PM
As for Mr. George, he's the sole and only remaining reason the sport flounders.
Take off the blinders and put down the koolaid.
GF and KK are responsible for the current floundering of Champ Car.
trauma1
08-13-07, 03:22 PM
BwahhaHahhahha!:rofl: Who would want one now....
by the way things are going most of CCF are kissing CC management ass for one
:gomer: :gomer:
Take off the blinders and put down the koolaid
You hate who you want, I know who I'm gonna hate....that ain't changing either...
Hey Hesketh....you're buds with Miller, right? Why is hardcard such a big deal other than CCWS ain't footing the bill for them to get to the track and now they got to come out of pocket. Is there something I'm missing?
Hesketh
08-13-07, 03:35 PM
You hate who you want, I know who I'm gonna hate....that ain't changing either...
Hey Hesketh....you're buds with Miller, right? Why is hardcard such a big deal other than CCWS ain't footing the bill for them to get to the track and now they got to come out of pocket. Is there something I'm missing?
CCWS doesn't foot the bill for travel for reporters; their respective publications do that. All a hardcard does is give you access and an occasional free lunch or two.
It's a big deal not because of all the freebies you fans imagine it comes with, but because it's so much less of a hassle than having to get creds for every race, having to sign in at the credentials office, having to wear a stupid lanyard and wrist band, etc. It's just so much easier: ask any crew member.
Oh, and next time you have a business trip, you tell me what's the big deal about the company paying for your flight and hotel and meals and incidentals vs. you paying for all that. :rolleyes:
jonovision_man
08-13-07, 03:37 PM
Take off the blinders and put down the koolaid.
GF and KK are responsible for the current floundering of Champ Car.
Well... sort of.
Hard to ignore the split. It was the original source of floundering, it put CART on a downward spiral to bankruptcy long before KK was in the picture. Losing the Indy 500 then losing the manufacturers and teams killed CART, the horrible management only sped up the process.
KK and GF are responsible for not turning ChampCar around post-bankruptcy. But I honestly don't know if anyone could have turned this ship around... it's a tiny little niche series that is very expensive to run, not a great combination for business success.
They've screwed up a few times, occasionally horribly, but their biggest sin is overpromising and underdelivering so often. They raise expectations and almost never deliver, giving false hope to fans followed by disappointment. KK still has that damn grin, "everything is fine!", and he will until the day they cease operations...
jono
It's a big deal not because of all the freebies you fans imagine it comes with, but because it's so much less of a hassle than having to get creds for every race, having to sign in at the credentials office, having to wear a stupid lanyard and wrist band, etc. It's just so much easier: ask any crew member.
There......it's nothing but a conveinence for the "hardcardee". I've been in the credential line...yup it's a hassle. But, is it a reason for THEM to not cover an event anymore? Not in my book. Sounds like sour grapes...thanks for the explanation.
I'd be interested in know what other "hardcarded" journos are running around out there? Can't be many these days....
When did being a fan become like work? I shouldn't have to work at being a fan. Holy cr@p these people make it hard. :(
Insomniac
08-13-07, 03:48 PM
Me thinks they're banding together to fight the supposed mistreatment of journo's by CCWS. In otherwords they've got an axe to grind because they ain't getting free tix anymore and the freebies ain't free anymore. Euro races that can't get comp'd anymore. no work=no money.
Folks that got their start with RIS back in the early 90's know what it's like to PAY to work. You'd get a credential, access to drivers and maybe a sandwich and a cold drink (if you were lucky). No one reimbursed travel expenses, paid for meals, film or processing. You slept in your car and you liked it after driving 4 to 6 hours....you paid for the gas and the breakdowns (and speeding tickets).
So, while I can sympathize I also have a hard time feeling bad for them in this economy. GK and RM should focus their anger....at Tony George. 1995 looked bright and everyone was getting fed. Now.......NOT.
Why would this be an issue? RM is paid by SPEED and presumably his expenses would be paid by them. ChampCar is also crazy to think US journalists and their employers are going to constantly spend money to cover them when they're barely a blip on the radar.
trauma1
08-13-07, 04:07 PM
You hate who you want, I know who I'm gonna hate....that ain't changing either...
Hey Hesketh....you're buds with Miller, right? Why is hardcard such a big deal other than CCWS ain't footing the bill for them to get to the track and now they got to come out of pocket. Is there something I'm missing?
so it's more important to you to have the papertards of the world to get hardcards rather than journalist,
devilmaster
08-13-07, 04:21 PM
To me (and maybe its just me), what's being lost in this silly debate about journos and their hardcards is a disturbing trend and which is, IMHO, a much bigger issue.
Kirby talks about how CC, as an organization, is still in save money anywhere mode. I have no doubt Kirby is right on that. The series has looked to save money where they can - and sometimes that has meant releasing good people because their salaries were too much.
If CC continues to let good, competent people go, you're doing more damage to the series than you can imagine. Because guess who hires them up? :irked: Bingo.
The one thing that CC had that the IRL didn't when it started, were some of the best people in the business. Now even that is gone. As an example, watching as Trammell was helping Dario out of his car at Michigan. Or another: as Rena Sharnaman is in charge of promoting the Detroit Grand Prix.
These are just 2 small examples of people that were in CART and worked through the good and the bad.
A strong majority would say that Tony Cotman has been good for the series. But have no doubt that if he was let go, he'd probably have a nice job waiting for him as Barnhart's assistant or something or other.
The truth is that unless Tony's wife has an angry lover, or another plane crash, :tony: will continue to spend the cash. CC needs more money injected into it. Higher purses so that teams can run cars. But if GF and KK aren't willing to spend any more (and I really can't blame them for not spending) then what's left?
my 2 bits anyways.
so it's more important to you to have the papertards of the world to get hardcards rather than journalist,
"papertards" as you refer to "them", get credentials all the time for whatever reason. I have nothing to do with it and I don't really give two sheiets who gets free passes to CCWS events (or any other events other than the market undermining the IRL and it's sponsors practice weekly e.g - Honda distributing 30,000 free tix).
Seeing as you're trying to put words in my mouth let me straighten you out: I'm all for freedom of the press BUT I haven't seen where ANYONE has been refused credentials. When that happens there'll be trouble and "hardcards" have nothing to do with it. Apparently you're having trouble seeing the forest through the trees. When Miller and Kirby and Phillips complain they've been denied CREDENTIALS to cover CCWS racing, well, that truely will be the end.
Why would this be an issue? RM is paid by SPEED and presumably his expenses would be paid by them. ChampCar is also crazy to think US journalists and their employers are going to constantly spend money to cover them when they're barely a blip on the radar.
I can't see why it's an issue to ANYBODY. It's not like they're muzzling Miller. Apparently it's a slap in the face to established Journos who've worked for CCWS. IF Hesketh tells the truth above hardcards are nothing but a courtesy anyway.
So, CCWS is supposed to pay journalists to write fluff about them? And if they don't, they'll complain? it was ok for Miller, but now Kirby joins in....there's no substance to any of it. No one is stopping them from reporting and editorializing the series. It's like someone took a silver spoon out of their mouths and inserted plastic. Where's the beef?
I can't remember the last time I learned something from Kirby or Miller that wasn't "leaked" in one of the forums first.
They are as obsolete as ride along mechanics. I'm sure Miller will use the time to show us how talented he really is. I expect he'll pen a New York Times best seller.
devilmaster
08-13-07, 05:02 PM
.
TravelGal
08-13-07, 05:15 PM
I read the thread first and then went back to read the article.
Boohoo. No one is at Siebkens, the way it was in the 1980's. >>>Does the name Thomas Wolfe have any meaning for you?
Boohoo. We're a spec series. >>>yeppers. We were told it was a building block. We'll see. I can't buy the "we don't do technology" rap though. At least we brought out a new car.
Boohoo. We're overseas too much. With no consistency. >>>And we're 3 years old so it might take a bit longer to get even the semblance of a decent schedule.
Boohoo. We haven't built on the success of having the same dates for 30 years like NASCAR. >>>see above.
Boohoo. Our hardcards were yanked. >>>Please reread Chief's first post.
Boohoo. We can't write for CCWS because they only want short pieces and we certainly don't do those. >>>Wouldn't want to give the employer what they ask for.
Biggest boohoo. Racer magazine, for example, sells fewer than half the number of copies it sold ten years ago and fans everywhere have complained to me over the past five years about the lack of any knowledgeable, in-depth coverage of the sport. >>Michael Schmidt :thumbup: I dropped my Racer subscription over the doctoring of photos from the IRL races. I take it Gordon contributes still? Or is he part of the problem he is complaining about.
Nevertheless, believe it or not, I agree with his conclusion but not for most of his reasons. Whether or not this series will survive it APPEARS that it will fail because of all the internal bickering and massive blunders. It APPEARS that only the good people get fired.
trauma1
08-13-07, 05:18 PM
"papertards" as you refer to "them", get credentials all the time for whatever reason. I have nothing to do with it and I don't really give two sheiets who gets free passes to CCWS events (or any other events other than the market undermining the IRL and it's sponsors practice weekly e.g - Honda distributing 30,000 free tix).
Seeing as you're trying to put words in my mouth let me straighten you out: I'm all for freedom of the press BUT I haven't seen where ANYONE has been refused credentials. When that happens there'll be trouble and "hardcards" have nothing to do with it. Apparently you're having trouble seeing the forest through the trees. When Miller and Kirby and Phillips complain they've been denied CREDENTIALS to cover CCWS racing, well, that truely will be the end.
you are truely deluded onwhat is going on with CC management and established journalist, it has everything to do on who kisses who ass, and it seems they want the papertards of the world to do thier reporting , loing RM and Kirby is a creadiblity issue no koolaide served here:gomer:
To me (and maybe its just me), what's being lost in this silly debate about journos and their hardcards is a disturbing trend and which is, IMHO, a much bigger issue.
Kirby talks about how CC, as an organization, is still in save money anywhere mode. I have no doubt Kirby is right on that. The series has looked to save money where they can - and sometimes that has meant releasing good people because their salaries were too much.
If CC continues to let good, competent people go, you're doing more damage to the series than you can imagine. Because guess who hires them up? :irked: Bingo.
The one thing that CC had that the IRL didn't when it started, were some of the best people in the business. Now even that is gone. As an example, watching as Trammell was helping Dario out of his car at Michigan. Or another: as Rena Sharnaman is in charge of promoting the Detroit Grand Prix.
These are just 2 small examples of people that were in CART and worked through the good and the bad.
A strong majority would say that Tony Cotman has been good for the series. But have no doubt that if he was let go, he'd probably have a nice job waiting for him as Barnhart's assistant or something or other.
The truth is that unless Tony's wife has an angry lover, or another plane crash, :tony: will continue to spend the cash. CC needs more money injected into it. Higher purses so that teams can run cars. But if GF and KK aren't willing to spend any more (and I really can't blame them for not spending) then what's left?
my 2 bits anyways.
Bingo!
'wagon, where real "journalists" go to meet :rofl:
the staff writers at the local alternative weekly put in 100x the time, effort, and research into their pieces compared to the average blog empowered 'net-tard. but hey, the 'net-tard pays his own way...
the best ones are the guys not taking themselves too seriously like the ones at Deadspin & EveryDayShouldBeSaturday
TravelGal
08-13-07, 05:26 PM
you are truely deluded onwhat is going on with CC management and established journalist, it has everything to do on who kisses who ass, and it seems they want the papertards of the world to do thier reporting , loing RM and Kirby is a creadiblity issue no koolaide served here:gomer:
Interesting. Two points going on here. Hesketh says it's no big deal to have a hard card. Apparently the self proclaimed true journalists of the sport disagree because they both thought it was worth quitting when theirs were taken away.
If you say it's a lack of respect, that I can understand. But Kirby points to hardcard issue so that what we're pointing to.
So the good thing (?) is that they now consider themselves independent. That means they did NOT consider themselves impartial before????? Hmmmm.
I'm not saying all's right with the world. Quite the contrary. I'm saying these guys come off like children.
trauma1
08-13-07, 05:31 PM
the yanking off thier credential is just what happened to RM at mindy and the star because FTG didn't like the press now CC management is graduating with the idiot grandson on how the press funtions:shakehead these stupid mistakes are killing the series
Sean O'Gorman
08-13-07, 05:37 PM
EveryDayShouldBeSaturday
:thumbup: :thumbup:
Anyway, I read Kirby's article, and I read little more than "waaah, there's nobody left to read what I write." Who gives a ****./
jonovision_man
08-13-07, 05:55 PM
I read the thread first and then went back to read the article.
Boohoo. No one is at Siebkens, the way it was in the 1980's. >>>Does the name Thomas Wolfe have any meaning for you?
Boohoo. We're a spec series. >>>yeppers. We were told it was a building block. We'll see. I can't buy the "we don't do technology" rap though. At least we brought out a new car.
Boohoo. We're overseas too much. With no consistency. >>>And we're 3 years old so it might take a bit longer to get even the semblance of a decent schedule.
Boohoo. We haven't built on the success of having the same dates for 30 years like NASCAR. >>>see above.
Boohoo. Our hardcards were yanked. >>>Please reread Chief's first post.
Boohoo. We can't write for CCWS because they only want short pieces and we certainly don't do those. >>>Wouldn't want to give the employer what they ask for.
Biggest boohoo. Racer magazine, for example, sells fewer than half the number of copies it sold ten years ago and fans everywhere have complained to me over the past five years about the lack of any knowledgeable, in-depth coverage of the sport. >>Michael Schmidt :thumbup: I dropped my Racer subscription over the doctoring of photos from the IRL races. I take it Gordon contributes still? Or is he part of the problem he is complaining about.
Nevertheless, believe it or not, I agree with his conclusion but not for most of his reasons. Whether or not this series will survive it APPEARS that it will fail because of all the internal bickering and massive blunders. It APPEARS that only the good people get fired.
Boohoo the series just went tits up again, and this time there's nobody to save it.
:saywhat:
jono
TKGAngel
08-13-07, 06:12 PM
If RM and GK are pissed about not having to wait in lines with the common folk, then :p on them. Shut up and deal with the photogs and journalists from Podunk Press and write your column. Its also not cool to mention that you're turning down work because you don't want to write a few couple-hundred word pieces for the website. JMO.
As an example, watching as Trammell was helping Dario out of his car at Michigan.
One jump I have no problem with. Pinderski's done a great job since he took over from Doc Trammell and Doc Olvey. But irregardless of what I think about the IRL and their drivers, they deserve to have top notch medical care, and that's Doc Trammell.
Hesketh
08-13-07, 06:55 PM
I can't see why it's an issue to ANYBODY. It's not like they're muzzling Miller. Apparently it's a slap in the face to established Journos who've worked for CCWS. IF Hesketh tells the truth above hardcards are nothing but a courtesy anyway.
So, CCWS is supposed to pay journalists to write fluff about them? And if they don't, they'll complain? it was ok for Miller, but now Kirby joins in....there's no substance to any of it. No one is stopping them from reporting and editorializing the series. It's like someone took a silver spoon out of their mouths and inserted plastic. Where's the beef?
Hang on, I think you and TravelGal have misunderstood my post.
It's more than a mere slap in the face to journalists. I don't know if Robin's hardcard has been yanked or he's been denied credentials, but if CCWS is keeping him from media access at the races, they're keeping him from doing his job. And the reason they're keeping him from doing his job, we can safely presume, is that they don't like his message. That's no different than what TG did years ago ... and promptly corrected because he realized it's worse press to ban a good journalist like Miller than to endure his public criticism.
Point is, CCWS is paying people to write fluff, and is dumping people like Kirby and Miller who don't tow the paper line. And why shouldn't journalists complain when they're prevented from getting the media access that allows them to do their jobs? If they write about the series from a distance, they're reduced to ... a fan on a forum. They need access to talk to the people who work in the series so they can report what's really going on, instead of regurgitating PR spin from CCWS press releases or fantasizing like the CCfantasy posters about what-ifs.
Silver spoon? Hardly. Miller works damned hard.
Interesting. Two points going on here. Hesketh says it's no big deal to have a hard card. Apparently the self proclaimed true journalists of the sport disagree because they both thought it was worth quitting when theirs were taken away.
If you say it's a lack of respect, that I can understand. But Kirby points to hardcard issue so that what we're pointing to.
So the good thing (?) is that they now consider themselves independent. That means they did NOT consider themselves impartial before????? Hmmmm.
I'm not saying all's right with the world. Quite the contrary. I'm saying these guys come off like children.
I didn't say it's no big deal to have a hardcard. I said it doesn't come with all the freebies some people have speculated: free meals, free travel, free this, free that.
Who says Miller and Kirby have quit? If CCWS grants their cred requests and whoever they're writing for gives a damn about the series, they'll report on it. Gee, TravelGal, you get plenty of free trips. If your free trips were taken away, would you continue to push people to travel to certain destinations or would you book people at other places, places you know about, places you've been to and can talk expertly about?
Beginning to understand the difference?
Independent is not the same as impartial. Go read Robin's stuff over the years; he hasn't changed. He said it all before and he continues to say it all now.
TravelGal, your attitude has changed since I first saw you at CCFantasyland. You've developed a snide, closed-minded edge.
Kirby and Miller are not coming off like children. They're coming off like professional journalists who have been muzzled.
Boohoo the series just went tits up again, and this time there's nobody to save it.
:saywhat:
jono
Yeah: boo hoo TravelGal. Who's childish now? :thumdown:
jonovision_man
08-13-07, 07:18 PM
Independent is not the same as impartial. Go read Robin's stuff over the years; he hasn't changed. He said it all before and he continues to say it all now.
I think he has changed. He used to be a ChampCar booster with the occasional criticism, now he's a ChampCar critic with the occasional positive thing to say.
IMO he's more honest now than he once was. I remember him on Despain really promoting the series, he was a good voice to have on the ChampCar side. Now he's not really on any side, he is calling it far closer to how he sees it without any restrictions.
jono
Hesketh
08-13-07, 07:36 PM
I think he has changed. He used to be a ChampCar booster with the occasional criticism, now he's a ChampCar critic with the occasional positive thing to say.
IMO he's more honest now than he once was. I remember him on Despain really promoting the series, he was a good voice to have on the ChampCar side. Now he's not really on any side, he is calling it far closer to how he sees it without any restrictions.
jono
I can understand why you see it that way. Personally, I think Robin feels he has less to "boost" now than he used to. While he was frequently puzzled by CART management decisions, these days he's truly disappointed in how the business is run and finds fewer positive things to talk about. But Robin has always been honest.
jonovision_man
08-13-07, 07:41 PM
I can understand why you see it that way. Personally, I think Robin feels he has less to "boost" now than he used to. While he was frequently puzzled by CART management decisions, these days he's truly disappointed in how the business is run and finds fewer positive things to talk about. But Robin has always been honest.
Agreed. I should have phrased that differently, I don't think he was dishonest. I just think he chose to suppress certain opinions more often than not, now he doesn't.
jono
And why shouldn't journalists complain when they're prevented from getting the media access that allows them to do their jobs? They need access to talk to the people who work in the series so they can report what's really going on, instead of regurgitating PR spin from CCWS press releases or fantasizing like the CCfantasy posters about what-ifs.
Just seeking info...
Have they been barred from the paddock or pit lane?
Are there other journalists (besides internet ones) that have hardcards?
good journalist like Miller
:rofl: Sorry you can't use journalist and Miller in the same sentence these days. He's been writing strictly opinion pieces for a while now. I won't comment on the 'good' part for now.
Insomniac
08-13-07, 08:39 PM
I think he has changed. He used to be a ChampCar booster with the occasional criticism, now he's a ChampCar critic with the occasional positive thing to say.
IMO he's more honest now than he once was. I remember him on Despain really promoting the series, he was a good voice to have on the ChampCar side. Now he's not really on any side, he is calling it far closer to how he sees it without any restrictions.
jono
I almost feel like he has changed like a lot of us on this board. I think a lot of us have been even more critical of CC than in past years.
you are truely deluded onwhat is going on with CC management and established journalist, it has everything to do on who kisses who ass, and it seems they want the papertards of the world to do thier reporting , loing RM and Kirby is a creadiblity issue no koolaide served here:gomer:
Deluded? I offered no opinion on the state of CCWS management, all I did was try and get people to understand WTF a HARDCARD is. When CCWS suppresses RM and GK from even getting credentials that'll be muzzling. Know the difference.
Understand....they lost me with FIA rules, no white flags, dropping of ovals and the jettisoning of FORD. Add in the DP01 not coming out of the box like expected, no starters that work and unloading rolling starts and I had a good picture that it was FUBAR. I hope they turn it around, but, lifes too f'n short give rat's *** anymore. I boycotted Toronto this year, first time since it's inception. Maybe they'll get the point, maybe not. They aren't caring too much for my viewpoint, so I really don't care about theirs.
extramundane
08-13-07, 08:52 PM
I almost feel like he has changed like a lot of us on this board. I think a lot of us have been even more critical of CC than in past years.
Bingo. :thumbup:
TravelGal
08-13-07, 09:04 PM
OK, ooh, fight, fight. Let's take off the gloves then.
Hang on, I think you and TravelGal have misunderstood my post.
A) I'm willing to admit I may have misunderstood your post. It IS a big deal to have a hard card. You do remember that I said, if it's a matter of respect, that I understood that much? Right? I'm sure you've seen the Robin's and Gordon's snarfing down the free chow at the ever-dwindling hospitality tents though.
It's more than a mere slap in the face to journalists. I don't know if Robin's hardcard has been yanked or he's been denied credentials,
B) So you don't know but you're spending a vast amount of space yelling at ME while you guess? Okay. Carry on.
Who says Miller and Kirby have quit? C) THEY say they have quit.
If your free trips were taken away, would you continue to push people to travel to certain destinations or would you book people at other places, places you know about, places you've been to and can talk expertly about?
D) Funny you should mention that as it is exactly what happened about 12 years ago in the travel business. True professionals sucked it up, kept on taking trips, and learning about what they audience needed to know.
Beginning to understand the difference? E) I am. Are you?
Independent is not the same as impartial. Go read Robin's stuff over the years; he hasn't changed. He said it all before and he continues to say it all now. F) That's not the point of this particular discussion.
TravelGal, your attitude has changed since I first saw you at CCFantasyland. You've developed a snide, closed-minded edge. G) No, it's just that over here you can discuss pros and cons and you do NOT have to agree with every poster. Hesketh, I don't agree with you. Don't go all paper on me and think I HAVE to agree with you.
Kirby and Miller are not coming off like children. They're coming off like professional journalists who have been muzzled.
Yeah: boo hoo TravelGal. Who's childish now? :thumdown: F) Parody. Look it up. It's in the dictionary.
Sean Malone
08-13-07, 09:09 PM
I'm confused, is this about Gordon Kirby or Champ Car?
What channel was the ALMS race on? If it's better I will check it out.
Does a hard card make racing journalists better writers?
Does Kalkovan still own Champ Car? Has he said anything since last Dec?
If a Champ Car races in the Wisconsin woods and no one is drinking at Siebkens , is the end near?
I say cut the cord. Both sides suck.
FCYTravis
08-13-07, 09:24 PM
I'd shake my head, but that doesn't begin to show how stupid this move is. What on Earth does Champ Car think they're going to prove?
Never start a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.
Media Relations 101, first day of class.
1. When you feel like your client is being covered poorly, but you desperately need the coverage that is being provided, the solution is to:
A: Work with the journalist in question to get your point of view across.
B: Work with other journalists who might present your view more favorably.
C: Tell the journalist he's persona non grata and revoke his access
I'm sure Champ Car teams and sponsors are thrilled that they'll be getting even less coverage from SPEED Channel.
Deluded? I offered no opinion on the state of CCWS management, all I did was try and get people to understand WTF a HARDCARD is. you tried to explain that miller & kirby get all expenses paid trips to races courtesy CCWS earlier
I'd shake my head, but that doesn't begin to show how stupid this move is. What on Earth does Champ Car think they're going to prove?
Never start a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel.
Media Relations 101, first day of class.
1. When you feel like your client is being covered poorly, but you desperately need the coverage that is being provided, the solution is to:
A: Work with the journalist in question to get your point of view across.
B: Work with other journalists who might present your view more favorably.
C: Tell the journalist he's persona non grata and revoke his access
I'm sure Champ Car teams and sponsors are thrilled that they'll be getting even less coverage from SPEED Channel.
It's laughable, isn't it?
:thumbup: :thumbup:
Anyway, I read Kirby's article, and I read little more than "waaah, there's nobody left to read what I write." Who gives a ****./
Good gravy, I agree with SeanO :saywhat:
This is Kirby blogging that nobody will pay for his stuff about open wheel anymore. This is the exact same content as his Mont Treblant blog - only the scenary changed.
His commentary on spec cars is laughable. Nobody in open wheel can afford to run a non-spec series today. Nobody. The mere suggestion that there's some way that champ car could have successfully created a non-spec forumula at this stage is idiocy of the highest order.
It's simply not economically feasible right now. If you want to advocate something that's going to cost money then advocate for drivers or venues because the spec DP01 is somewhere down near the bottom of Champ car's problems right now.
you tried to explain that miller & kirby get all expenses paid trips to races courtesy CCWS earlier
They don't? Enlighten me oh central scrutinizer because they had better for all the BS in this thread and the whining done by Kirby. Come on, tell us the truth......
FCYTravis
08-13-07, 09:54 PM
Robin is working for SPEED Channel. That means SPEED Channel covers his travel expenses - not Champ Car. Pulling the hard card means he can't get into races without convincing each individual track to issue him a media credential.
Having a series-issued hard card allows a media professional (journalist, photographer or PR rep) to get his or her job done with a minimum of fuss.
jonovision_man
08-13-07, 09:59 PM
I almost feel like he has changed like a lot of us on this board. I think a lot of us have been even more critical of CC than in past years.
Agreed. And a lot of that stems from the promises that haven't been delivered on.
I don't know what broke the camel's back for me... Ansan was one, Canadian/Oz TV was another, and the failure of the DP-01 to lift the series to a new level is another (although I do like the car, I expected more than 17 cars on the grid!).
I still enjoy the races... but I'm very pessimistic about the future, I don't think this series is going anywhere but down. Sad. And when I look over the fence (that I'm told I'm sitting on ;)) I don't see any better prospects in the IRL, seems to be on a similar downward slide.
At least F1 is still going strong. :)
jono
opinionated ow
08-13-07, 10:09 PM
His commentary on spec cars is laughable. Nobody in open wheel can afford to run a non-spec series today. Nobody. The mere suggestion that there's some way that champ car could have successfully created a non-spec forumula at this stage is idiocy of the highest order.
frankly, that is wrong. Formula 3 is an open category as are midgets, sprintcars, supermodifieds etc. which are all openwheel...
frankly, that is wrong. Formula 3 is an open category as are midgets, sprintcars, supermodifieds etc. which are all openwheel...
Frankly, that's irrelevant. None of those cars costs nearly as much to design, develop, or build. Unless you're advocating a junk forumula it's unlikely they'd have even found someone to take the risk of building a car without some sales guarantees.
Dang Chief, that is the most stupid post I have ever seen you write
Travis hits it
Robin is working for SPEED Channel. That means SPEED Channel covers his travel expenses - not Champ Car. Pulling the hard card means he can't get into races without convincing each individual track to issue him a media credential.
Having a series-issued hard card allows a media professional (journalist, photographer or PR rep) to get his or her job done with a minimum of fuss.
Oh and Chief, did you ever think that maybe thirty years ago, guys like Kirby and Miller were not sleeping in their cars? Eating chips? Kirby has yet to achieve the ability to buy soap for Christ's Sakes. Have you any idea what Miller's diet consists of? Hamburgers, the breading off onion rings, saltines and longs donuts would about cover it. It ain't like they have to hide the food when he comes around:cool:
So you think it's OK to remove the field all together, much like Tony did?
:gomer:
TU Homer
08-14-07, 12:50 AM
I don't know what broke the camel's b And when I look over the fence (that I'm told I'm sitting on ;)) I don't see any better prospects in the IRL, seems to be on a similar downward slide.
At least F1 is still going strong. :)
jono
My take on you (since you opened that can of worms), is you appear to accept IRL or champs equally. I guess that's fine, but I could never accept TG as teh leader of racing in NA. I view him as the problem. So, if IRL wins, then I'm done with racing in NA. I get the impression you would follow IRL as if the sanction had the right to exist.
I know I'm a jihadist, but for ****s sake. The guy destroyed racing in NA. How can any fan just take that ****?
-TU
opinionated ow
08-14-07, 12:53 AM
kirby and miller have them by the balls...you would think they would try to suck up...
My take on you (since you opened that can of worms), is you appear to accept IRL or champs equally. I guess that's fine, but I could never accept TG as teh leader of racing in NA. I view him as the problem. So, if IRL wins, then I'm done with racing in NA. I get the impression you would follow IRL as if the sanction had the right to exist.
I know I'm a jihadist, but for ****s sake. The guy destroyed racing in NA. How can any fan just take that ****?
-TU
You think anyone will miss you, bye, bye
You think anyone will miss you, bye, bye
About as much as the IRL will miss Paff... :p
Hesketh
08-14-07, 05:24 AM
OK, ooh, fight, fight. Let's take off the gloves then.
Hang on, I think you and TravelGal have misunderstood my post.
A) I'm willing to admit I may have misunderstood your post. It IS a big deal to have a hard card. You do remember that I said, if it's a matter of respect, that I understood that much? Right? I'm sure you've seen the Robin's and Gordon's snarfing down the free chow at the ever-dwindling hospitality tents though.
It's more than a mere slap in the face to journalists. I don't know if Robin's hardcard has been yanked or he's been denied credentials,
B) So you don't know but you're spending a vast amount of space yelling at ME while you guess? Okay. Carry on.
Who says Miller and Kirby have quit? C) THEY say they have quit.
If your free trips were taken away, would you continue to push people to travel to certain destinations or would you book people at other places, places you know about, places you've been to and can talk expertly about?
D) Funny you should mention that as it is exactly what happened about 12 years ago in the travel business. True professionals sucked it up, kept on taking trips, and learning about what they audience needed to know.
Beginning to understand the difference? E) I am. Are you?
Independent is not the same as impartial. Go read Robin's stuff over the years; he hasn't changed. He said it all before and he continues to say it all now. F) That's not the point of this particular discussion.
TravelGal, your attitude has changed since I first saw you at CCFantasyland. You've developed a snide, closed-minded edge. G) No, it's just that over here you can discuss pros and cons and you do NOT have to agree with every poster. Hesketh, I don't agree with you. Don't go all paper on me and think I HAVE to agree with you.
Kirby and Miller are not coming off like children. They're coming off like professional journalists who have been muzzled.
Yeah: boo hoo TravelGal. Who's childish now? F) Parody. Look it up. It's in the dictionary.
Well, you have certainly proved my point that you are childish and snide, TravelGal. Some attitude.
I'm not going "all paper," I'm not "yelling" at you and I'm not saying you have to agree with me. I'm merely trying to explain a few things to you that you don't seem to understand (since you were asking --- don't ask if you don't want answers). Rude. Look it up. It's in the dictionary too. :rolleyes: :thumdown:
Again, a couple free lunches: why do you fans make such a big deal of WORKING journalists getting a sandwich or two? Does it bother you that the crews get fed as well? Sheesh! You'd think the price of that brat at RA is killing you or something. And if Robin and Kirby are eating at team hospitality tents, that has NOTHING to do with a hardcard or CCWS. :rolleyes:
Obviously no point in talking to you, the fan who knows all about the business. :shakehead
Hesketh
08-14-07, 05:27 AM
Robin is working for SPEED Channel. That means SPEED Channel covers his travel expenses - not Champ Car. Pulling the hard card means he can't get into races without convincing each individual track to issue him a media credential.
Having a series-issued hard card allows a media professional (journalist, photographer or PR rep) to get his or her job done with a minimum of fuss.
Thanks for putting it better than I did.
James Dean
08-14-07, 06:22 AM
Siebkens or no Siebkens ..... these are Racing Journalists? My ass. Morons care only about getting their 'perks'. If they must they will throw out the baby with the bath water in order to get them. The currant racing news professional amounts to about nothing more than a pack of insider suck-ups. As one example of their lack of newsworthiness, can't these guys make light of Champ Car's ladder series ..... the open-wheel series that stands alone in the Americas ..... the real cornerstone for the sport ..... the building block for the future! Aren't these guys willin' to sacrifice just like most of the entire organization's personnel? As racing enthusiasts, to be a part of this creative process is why we push forward. We open doors to new discoveries, Yes? But no. Our reporters would rather collect their perks while playing the insider gig and then tell us just how what-is-what, or should I say manipulate us for their own what-is-what agendas. We should feel so privileged. Ha!! It is still not an impossibility that just around the corner there lurks a connection to CCWS that will pull the rug out from underneath the robbers that are responsible for the demise of our so loved sport. That connection is likely to be realized by a true journalist earning their worth rather than by an insider.
Hesketh
08-14-07, 06:51 AM
Siebkens or no Siebkens ..... these are Racing Journalists? My ass. Morons care only about getting their 'perks'. If they must they will throw out the baby with the bath water in order to get them. The currant racing news professional amounts to about nothing more than a pack of insider suck-ups. As one example of their lack of newsworthiness, can't these guys make light of Champ Car's ladder series ..... the open-wheel series that stands alone in the Americas ..... the real cornerstone for the sport ..... the building block for the future! Aren't these guys willin' to sacrifice just like most of the entire organization's personnel? As racing enthusiasts, to be a part of this creative process is why we push forward. We open doors to new discoveries, Yes? But no. Our reporters would rather collect their perks while playing the insider gig and then tell us just how what-is-what, or should I say manipulate us for their own what-is-what agendas. We should feel so privileged. Ha!! It is still not an impossibility that just around the corner there lurks a connection to CCWS that will pull the rug out from underneath the robbers that are responsible for the demise of our so loved sport. That connection is likely to be realized by a true journalist earning their worth rather than by an insider.
Again with the free lunches. Just exactly what "perks" do you think journalists get? Parking passes and access to DO THEIR JOBS is about it.
I don't understand your post, which sounds paper-esque. You're upset that reporters are telling you "just how what-is-what"? Ummm, that's what they're supposed to do.
And just what kind of agenda do you ascribe to race reporters?
What's the secret connection you hint at in paper fashion? And why are you implying that reporters are responsible for the demise of the sport?
You don't know what you're babbling about, just like ,,,,.
Spicoli
08-14-07, 07:20 AM
Siebkens or no Siebkens ..... these are Racing Journalists? My ass. Morons care only about getting their 'perks'. If they must they will throw out the baby with the bath water in order to get them. The currant racing news professional amounts to about nothing more than a pack of insider suck-ups. As one example of their lack of newsworthiness, can't these guys make light of Champ Car's ladder series ..... the open-wheel series that stands alone in the Americas ..... the real cornerstone for the sport ..... the building block for the future! Aren't these guys willin' to sacrifice just like most of the entire organization's personnel? As racing enthusiasts, to be a part of this creative process is why we push forward. We open doors to new discoveries, Yes? But no. Our reporters would rather collect their perks while playing the insider gig and then tell us just how what-is-what, or should I say manipulate us for their own what-is-what agendas. We should feel so privileged. Ha!! It is still not an impossibility that just around the corner there lurks a connection to CCWS that will pull the rug out from underneath the robbers that are responsible for the demise of our so loved sport. That connection is likely to be realized by a true journalist earning their worth rather than by an insider.
Thor? Lisa S? come in please. hello? hello?
Rogue Leader
08-14-07, 07:45 AM
My question is (and I bet somewhere in this arguement it's already been asked) if they didn't like what Robin was writing about the series, they pull his hard card, piss off his employer (SPEED) who still gives him a forum to write... which means now he is pissed off and probably going to write worse things. Say waht you want about Robin, as a racing journo he carries a lot of weight. Smart move... :shakehead
James Dean, how come dorks from paperwagon always trash a good name?
Tell us oh driver of a smashed spyder, how the intricate world of unzipping KK pork pen is going?
jonovision_man
08-14-07, 08:06 AM
My take on you (since you opened that can of worms), is you appear to accept IRL or champs equally.
Close. I prefer ChampCar, I prefer road and street races, so I wouldn't say "equally". But I watch both. Although this year the IRL season was pretty atrocious, I didn't end up watching much at all.
I guess that's fine, but I could never accept TG as teh leader of racing in NA. I view him as the problem. So, if IRL wins, then I'm done with racing in NA. I get the impression you would follow IRL as if the sanction had the right to exist.
That's a funny way of putting it... but OK. Yes, I would follow the IRL, probably more than now since presumably they'd pick up some of the ChampCar events and teams.
I know I'm a jihadist, but for ****s sake. The guy destroyed racing in NA. How can any fan just take that ****?
I don't take in personally, it was a business decision (albeit a stupid one).
How could I call myself a fan if I refused to watch racing I enjoy?
jono
Dude, you been a Lemming since I have been on the Internet
what else is new:gomer: :gomer: :gomer:
Insomniac
08-14-07, 08:49 AM
Robin is working for SPEED Channel. That means SPEED Channel covers his travel expenses - not Champ Car. Pulling the hard card means he can't get into races without convincing each individual track to issue him a media credential.
Having a series-issued hard card allows a media professional (journalist, photographer or PR rep) to get his or her job done with a minimum of fuss.
Does the media credential provide the same access as a hard card? Can they talk to people in the garages, pit lane, transporter, etc.?
I'm really just curious. ChampCar is still petty, but if all they have to do is make a phone call to get credentials (I doubt the door is being beaten down with requests) and they still have the same access, they shouldn't have any problem doing their job. Now, if they don't want to because of what CC did, then I guess that's between them and their employer.
Insomniac
08-14-07, 08:54 AM
My take on you (since you opened that can of worms), is you appear to accept IRL or champs equally. I guess that's fine, but I could never accept TG as teh leader of racing in NA. I view him as the problem. So, if IRL wins, then I'm done with racing in NA. I get the impression you would follow IRL as if the sanction had the right to exist.
I know I'm a jihadist, but for ****s sake. The guy destroyed racing in NA. How can any fan just take that ****?
-TU
The on-track product would outweigh TIIC for me. The cars sound like crap and look like crap. I don't watch enough to comment on the actual racing, but I watch F1/ChampCar parades all season long.
trauma1
08-14-07, 09:27 AM
CCmanagement revolving door is the cause of all this kaka and that's what RM and GK have been pointing out that manement IE the 3 amigos have been shooting themselves in the foot, the hiring out nitwits IE johnson and the milewaukee mile gang, Claire left wanted to come back but they for some god forsaken reason hired johnson, the point they give out hardcards and credendial to internet fluff amatuers and bar the journalist who have been with the series for years because they are telling the truth was a cluster manement is right now
Well, you have certainly proved my point that you are childish and snide, TravelGal. Some attitude.
Silly TravelGal, don't you know he claims to be an insider. You should bow down to his superior knowledge and opinions. :tony:
They need to re-open that smack place again. This place is getting very uncivil. :irked:
RaceGrrl
08-14-07, 09:41 AM
This place is getting very uncivil. :irked:
Agreed.
Stop with the name calling or this thread will be closed.
trauma1
08-14-07, 10:27 AM
i could post a rather revealing comments from gentaloser forum that would blow the lid on all this kaka, some have seen it, but when CC management flys a fan to a board meeting then yanks a hardcard from jourmnalist you have a big cluster gang bang, at least FTG had the sense to reinstate journalist press passes when he got balsted for it, what a truely moranic move by CC
Corner5
08-14-07, 10:30 AM
My question is (and I bet somewhere in this arguement it's already been asked) if they didn't like what Robin was writing about the series, they pull his hard card, piss off his employer (SPEED) who still gives him a forum to write... which means now he is pissed off and probably going to write worse things. Say waht you want about Robin, as a racing journo he carries a lot of weight. Smart move... :shakehead
Robin decided to go negative when CC signed with ABC. He hates that network and said CC "sold out". Of course it meant CC was also not going to be on his channel. That's when he wrote the damning article that got him fired from CC.
Kirby lost all credibility with his article when he injected his personal opinion about writing articles and whined about losing his gig at CC. It gives his opinion an agenda. Where is his article about the IRL 's state of business after their pairing with ALMS at MO? spec series, low car counts,no attendance, changing schedule, low tv ratings,that's IRL's problems too. Where 's the outrage? Instead he said the IRL was on the cutting edge of new technology. Oh boy!
I'm not trying to say CC doesn't have problems, but what GF wrote is nothing new, he just dragged out an article from last year and used it to slag on CC for dumping him.IMO
trauma1
08-14-07, 10:38 AM
take cover boys and girls this is what took place behind the so called seens, the real truth on what took place to get rid of RM
and what if robin created a dissent that was hurting behind the scenes? not postable and therein lies a problem, justa question. **t
:
and two weeks ago in a quick board meeting the process was started and some things solved. I was called at the end of that meeting. I told*** some of the decisions. He somehow has turned that in his mind that Im responsible. Im not but I do know what and who are in the weeds, ##
Final response ***:
we're working on that, thats one of the reasons I was flown to cleveland
Spicoli
08-14-07, 10:45 AM
take cover boys and girls this is what took place behind the so called seens, the real truth on what took place to get rid of RM
and what if robin created a dissent that was hurting behind the scenes? not postable and therein lies a problem, justa question. **t
:
and two weeks ago in a quick board meeting the process was started and some things solved. I was called at the end of that meeting. I told*** some of the decisions. He somehow has turned that in his mind that Im responsible. Im not but I do know what and who are in the weeds, ##
Final response ***:
we're working on that, thats one of the reasons I was flown to cleveland
OMG, he's gone off the deepend. :shakehead
Dang Chief, that is the most stupid post I have ever seen you write
Nah, I've written stupider ones than that......
So, hardcards aren't all they're cracked up to be....my humble apologies.
trauma1....:confused:
trauma1
08-14-07, 11:01 AM
Nah, I've written stupider ones than that......
So, hardcards aren't all they're cracked up to be....my humble apologies.
trauma1....:confused:
just had to print the truth on what's going on that's all got tired off spin control, and the crap, when you fly in an internet poster to a board meeting for spin control of a journalist you got serious fubar problems
Sean Malone
08-14-07, 11:09 AM
,,,, is ruining Champ Car from the inside out. How f'n funny is that!!!!!
Don Quixote
08-14-07, 11:13 AM
somebody post a link. :)
trauma1
08-14-07, 11:15 AM
,,,, is ruining Champ Car from the inside out. How f'n funny is that!!!!!
didn't know one man could control the paddack and teams like RM can, if they are that unhappy bigger problems are going on
Insomniac
08-14-07, 11:19 AM
take cover boys and girls this is what took place behind the so called seens, the real truth on what took place to get rid of RM
and what if robin created a dissent that was hurting behind the scenes? not postable and therein lies a problem, justa question. **t
:
and two weeks ago in a quick board meeting the process was started and some things solved. I was called at the end of that meeting. I told*** some of the decisions. He somehow has turned that in his mind that Im responsible. Im not but I do know what and who are in the weeds, ##
Final response ***:
we're working on that, thats one of the reasons I was flown to cleveland
Can someone translate this into English?
trauma1
08-14-07, 11:23 AM
names editted
From the car maker:
and what if robin created a dissent that was hurting behind the scenes? not postable and therein lies a problem, justa question. ***
My response:
Then I say the problem isn't behind the scenes, I say the problem is bigger than anyone of us can imagine and management needs to start putting out the fires. ***, people need to be smarter than that, period.
To which he responded:
and two weeks ago in a quick board meeting the process was started and some things solved. I was called at the end of that meeting. I told #### some of the decisions. He somehow has turned that in his mind that Im responsible. Im not but I do know what and who are in the weeds,***
My response:
***, you know I am just coming at this as a fan, I remove myself from the rigamarole and back scene crap, I don't want it. I love this sport with all my heart and that is just the way it is with me. I do have one more thought here, ***, it is NOT the medias responsibility to keep the paddock happy. If the paddock was strong enough this wouldn't even be an issue. The strength needs to come from within.
Final response from ***:
we're working on that, thats one of the reasons I was flown to cleveland,
Sean Malone
08-14-07, 11:24 AM
Did ,,,, buy Champ Car?
HOLY COW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl:
trauma1
08-14-07, 11:31 AM
Did ,,,, buy Champ Car?
HOLY COW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:rofl:
you ought to see other pm's that the insider draft dodger wrote gloating about threatning peoples jobs in the paddack trying to get people and drivers fired ,it's real messed up:flame: :shakehead
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