View Full Version : Drop dead date for Honda?
stroker
08-20-07, 09:45 PM
So we're almost done with 2007. Am I wrong, or was the announcement for Honda that they'd signed UNTIL 2009 and not THROUGH 2009? What's the conventional wisdom for the drop dead/re-sign date for Honda with the IRL? Or do most of us think they'll go "in-house" with Penske/Ilmor?
Sean Malone
08-20-07, 09:48 PM
Who cares.
Methanolandbrats
08-20-07, 09:51 PM
Interesting question that pinpoints how bad racing is. 15 years ago we'd be talking about motors and drivers, now we're talking about "contracts", "rescue vehicles", etc,etc..................: puke::yuck: It's like being trapped in an endless political debate.
devilmaster
08-20-07, 11:21 PM
We are trapped in an endless political debate.
Fixed it for ya. ;)
I'd love to see the results of a poll done with hindsight. From 1995, where you asked every self proclaimed NAOW fan from then if they cared about or wanted to know about the politics of the sport. I'm sure a majority would say no.
The minority of those who said yes, are probably us, the ones still around on msg boards debating each bit of drivel that slides on out into the public. The majority of those who didn't want to know probably left this sport long ago.
The old Seger line comes to mind: 'Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then.'
Today. Today would be a good drop dead date for Honda.
Seriously, Kirby has been buttering them up talking about Honda helping them with their next engine/chasis design so at least from that it doesn't sound like they're about to pull the plug.
Insomniac
08-21-07, 08:19 AM
Why would they leave? They don't have to do any work in the IRL, just supply detuned engines. There is no drop dead date. They have the upperhand and they'll keep extending, without really extending (since they can get out before the end of the deal).
nissan gtp
08-21-07, 08:24 AM
Today. Today would be a good drop dead date for Honda.
Seriously, Kirby has been buttering them up talking about Honda helping them with their next engine/chasis design so at least from that it doesn't sound like they're about to pull the plug.
hope they call in the F1 team :rofl:
Andrew Longman
08-21-07, 10:01 AM
Why would they leave? They don't have to do any work in the IRL, just supply detuned engines.
They probably make money on their engine leases and for that reason would likely stay as long as they made money.
What they also supply though is sponsorship, promotion and salaries. They bring their own sponsorship dollars as well as several of their suppliers (e.g., Motorola, XM, etc.). They promote the St Pete race and buy ad time for all the races. They are supposedly paying salaries to a number of drivers.
At some point they may say they are not getting the return they want, or that their money is better spent in ALMS and the AGR crew moves there full time with Penske.
Insomniac
08-21-07, 12:27 PM
They probably make money on their engine leases and for that reason would likely stay as long as they made money.
What they also supply though is sponsorship, promotion and salaries. They bring their own sponsorship dollars as well as several of their suppliers (e.g., Motorola, XM, etc.). They promote the St Pete race and buy ad time for all the races. They are supposedly paying salaries to a number of drivers.
At some point they may say they are not getting the return they want, or that their money is better spent in ALMS and the AGR crew moves there full time with Penske.
The thing is, TG will keep that thing running no matter what. They must have engines, so they'll take whatever Honda gives them. Honda holds all the cards.
If they feel like they're spending too much on advertising, what is TG going to do if they cut it back? Yeah, he's an idiot, and he might kick them out, but Honda can find a way to make a profit since they're barely doing any real work.
Andrew Longman
08-21-07, 12:46 PM
Well if you buy into the theory that 200000 people will attend Indy even if they run lawnmowers on Memorial Day, TG may not care one way or the other. There is always Ilmore, Cosworth, Menard, Judd and a bunch of other engine makers willing to sell.
But without the direct and indirect support from Honda, AGR, Ganassi, and Penske will not be there. They will follow the money.
ABC will not be pleased about losing even the weak stars of the IRL and they won't be pleased if Honda is not buying ad time.
But TG will always have his track and race.
I cant believe Spictardly has not run his yap on this subject
"I was sitting in the bar with three other posers".........
I cant believe Spictardly has not run his yap on this subject
"I was sitting in the bar with three other posers".........
:rofl:
There is always Ilmore, Cosworth, Menard, Judd and a bunch of other engine makers willing to sell.
But, would Cosworth sell engines to the IRL? I don't know if KK or GF would want to.
But, would Cosworth sell engines to the IRL? I don't know if KK or GF would want to.
Why not? I think they'd love to make money of that series. It would go to a good cause. ;) :D
Off Camber
08-21-07, 07:29 PM
Didn't Cosworth build the original Honda badged battering ram?
Sean O'Gorman
08-21-07, 07:40 PM
The one from the 80s? I think that was a Judd.
The one from the 80s? I think that was a Judd.
That was when they first got into CART. I'm talking about the first itteration of the 3.5 liter or whatever size their anvils were back when Honda went to the IRL.
That was when they first got into CART. I'm talking about the first itteration of the 3.5 liter or whatever size their anvils were back when Honda went to the IRL.
No, found a link - it was Ilmor.
Didn't Cosworth build the original Honda badged battering ram?
Midway through the 2003 IRL season, Chevy badged Cosworth 3.5L N/A's.
DagoFast
08-22-07, 01:07 AM
Honda's "drop dead" date was back in 2002. For me anyways...;)
Midway through the 2003 IRL season, Chevy badged Cosworth 3.5L N/A's.
That was one of the funniest moves by the IRL -- they broke their own engine regs to get Chevy competitive and keep them in the series. Chevy eventually walked away anyhow.
If Honda pulled its support of the IRL would be good for the sport. When was the last time any supplier/sponsor has done anything good for the sport, especially Honda?
Corner5
08-22-07, 04:03 PM
They probably make money on their engine leases and for that reason would likely stay as long as they made money.
What they also supply though is sponsorship, promotion and salaries. They bring their own sponsorship dollars as well as several of their suppliers (e.g., Motorola, XM, etc.). They promote the St Pete race and buy ad time for all the races. They are supposedly paying salaries to a number of drivers.
At some point they may say they are not getting the return they want, or that their money is better spent in ALMS and the AGR crew moves there full time with Penske.
Bingo, they are propping up the series,until they enter nascar.
Andrew Longman
08-22-07, 04:59 PM
If Honda pulled its support of the IRL would be good for the sport. When was the last time any supplier/sponsor has done anything good for the sport, especially Honda?
Big three support has been good for NASCAR. Maybe not so good for the Big Three but Nascar and the teams have benefited.
Ford, Honda, Toyota, MB, and Chevy brought a lot of money and marketing power to CART. Manufacturers have brought a lot of money and exposure to F1.
The problem happens when the series does not do the things to create value for teams and sponsors beyond what the manufacturers do. The series has to stay out front advancing their own brand and interests and not get lazy/lured into adopting a business model that simply lives off the engine teet.
The problem with IMSA, CART and now the IRL was that the series got into a situation where the series needed the manufacturers more than the manufacturers needed them. Doesn't have to be though.
Maybe I should have been more specific. When has a supplier or a manufacturer done last done something BECAUSE it is good for the sport?
I realize it is not their job to save the sport from the stupid and the self-important, but you have to wonder if the Targets and Marlboros and Hondas and Toyotas of the world ever wonder if they could get a better return on their investments by being a part of the solution instead of being a part of the problem.
Well, the engine lease program was not a bad idea.......... a privateer got a heck of a powerplant from a reliable source. This was not always the case, as a person can look at when the leases started in relationship to engine failures and see for themselves the reliablility increased tremendously.
They also bridged the racing with somethings non-racing. They actually did quite a good job of this back in the heyday. Having a rolling PR machine to give employee's a sense of pride is never a bad thing. Honda and Mercedes did quite a bit of this type of entertaining, both at the tracks and in their factories as well.
Insomniac
08-23-07, 12:29 PM
Like it was said earlier, while the manufacturers are out for themselves, that was OK until CC/CART needed them more than they needed CC/CART. Before they could've walked away at their detriment, and someone may have just stepped right in to take their place. Honda is only in the IRL because of the Indy 500 and no one wants to be in ChampCar. I don't think independent engine builders would even care to compete at this point.
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