Do you think KK is really trying (or has)

[OW]

I think so.....
He has poured a lot of personal $ into CC and I commend him for that.

Not supporting Teams with cash....like (you know who is) ..is only fair (to him).

And if not enough Outside sponsorships requires race cancels..well then..

What can he do? He deserves the "thank you" award for wherever we are...

At least AZ is early anounced.. (I was gonna go and didnt even book flight yet) Better than Rahal and Texas

(awesome that CCs are *were* too fast for that bowl)

[DagoFast]

Let's nominate him for a Nobel Prize. :D

[Sean Malone]

I think KK is a successful business man who thought partnering to buy the remains of CART would instantly put him on the same playing field as George, BE, Panoz and yes, even the Frances. This year I believe was an eye opener on many levels and he has his exit strategy ready to implement as every good business man should.

It's not like he's been a team owner for decades. He could sell and no one would care or remeber his name in a year.


It's over...prepare.

[pferrf1]

I don't think KK, nor GFare ready to put in the 100% commitment to CCWS that it requires from both of them for hte next 9 months to stop the slide and ensure success in 2008.

[Sean O'Gorman]

The problem is, the product that KK and GF want to create, isn't something that is striking a chord with sponsors, manufacturers, and the fans. Its one thing if you're a self-sustained club racing series, but Champ Car clearly isn't.

[nrc]

Not many club racers go straight to F1.

[FCYTravis]

Other than Seabass, is there a single driver in CCWS right now who could even think about a sniff at a bottom-rung F1 ride?

Beyond that, it doesn't matter how many drivers the series can send to F1 if they can't figure out how to make the thing pay for itself. Can-Am II was chock-full of talent - didn't help much.

Further beyond that, is "F1-feedercar" really what Champ Car wants to be? Do we really want a revolving lineup of ever-changing check-writing Europeans who are just biding their time until something better opens up back home? Is that really going to create a sustainable American fanbase?

Seems like once upon a time, F1's top talent was coming over here, not the other way around.

[gpflepsen]

Other than Seabass, is there a single driver in CCWS right now who could even think about a sniff at a bottom-rung F1 ride?


Doornbos.

[Ankf00]

took seb how many seasons of outright domination to get to that point? 4?

[FCYTravis]

Doornbos.
Yeah, but he's already been there. Can't credit Champ Car with that.

Like I said, holding pattern series for European drivers who can't find an F1 gig.

[SteveH]

Not many club racers go straight to F1.

ding ding ding

[FCYTravis]

Where did Champ Car get this great reputation as an F1 feeder, anyway? How many Champ Car drivers have "gone straight to F1" since Shorty did it in '03?

The answer to that question, of course, is zero. Not a single one. If I was an aspiring driver trying to get an F1 drive, I can think of several series which have fed more than zero drivers in the last four years.

[Elmo T]

The answer to that question, of course, is zero. Not a single one. If I was an aspiring driver trying to get an F1 drive, I can think of several series which have fed more than zero drivers in the last four years.


Is that want we WANT Champ Car to be - a feeder series for F1? :confused:

[pchall]

Is that want we WANT Champ Car to be - a feeder series for F1? :confused:

Any road racing single=seater series is going to be part of the F1 ladder. Live with it or become an IRL fan.

[mueber]

The problem is, the product that KK and GF want to create, isn't something that is striking a chord with sponsors, manufacturers, and the fans. Its one thing if you're a self-sustained club racing series, but Champ Car clearly isn't.

The same could be said for open wheel in general.

I won't criticize someone who put millions of his own money into saving the sport, but until someone puts together an open wheel series that is embraced by a large enough population to draw sponsors and suppliers, it's going to be an uphill slog. I think KK severely underestimated the steepness of the hill.

At some point if it becomes too draining and/or too expensive to carry on, he'll give up and move on. I'm grateful for what he's done, I go to the races, and I hope he can succeed. What else can I do?

As for the F-1 feeder series thing, pchall has it covered. The world is a much smaller place. F-1 is number one; we aren't afraid sea monsters will attack us if we try to cross the Atlantic, and no one believes winning the Gomerville 500 is the be-all and end-all of auto racing anymore.

[Insomniac]

Where did Champ Car get this great reputation as an F1 feeder, anyway? How many Champ Car drivers have "gone straight to F1" since Shorty did it in '03?

The answer to that question, of course, is zero. Not a single one. If I was an aspiring driver trying to get an F1 drive, I can think of several series which have fed more than zero drivers in the last four years.

Wrong! Tiago Monteiro :)

[Elmo T]

Any road racing single=seater series is going to be part of the F1 ladder.

My point was more: Should Champ Car aspire to be an F1 ladder series? - not the reality of F1's position at the top of the food chain. Should Champ Car develop their series (rules, tech specs, venues) to be the premier stepping stone for F1?

I am not that concerned about where Champ Car drivers go when their tenure is completed. If Champ Car got their **** in order, maybe we wouldn't be kibitzing about drivers leaving.

[chop456]

Tarso Marques :tony:

[jonovision_man]

Is that want we WANT Champ Car to be - a feeder series for F1? :confused:

We're a loooong way away from the time when a driver might have chosen ChampCar over F1. It's the reality, drivers will jump at an F1 chance.

What's worse is if ChampCar goes so far down the toilet that F1 stops looking... and I think they did for a bit, it was only Bourdais' remarkable string of championships that managed to get a ChampCar driver noticed again.

jono

[Sean Malone]

I agree with pchall, any formula series will feed drivers to F1. Especially when 99% of them are...wait for it...European.

hypothetically, if there were the same pool of US drivers for formula single seaters I wonder how many would choose F1 over Champ Car, and let me qualify that by equating Champ Car with CART circa '94.

[Andrew Longman]

As long as F1 and NASCAR are what they are, there will be drivers looking to go there for the cash and "fame". Unless CC gets bigger than them its going to happen and the business plan for CC has to account for it.

While trying to become the premier feeder to F1 is one way to deal with that reality, I don't think it is likely to be the best alternative. F1 would have to welcome it first of all and they already have GP2 racing on the same curcuits.

I think the better alternative is largely what CC is trying to do. Put on good events for a good value that are built around exciting, competitive racing but also amount to three days of entertainment. Create something that is attractive to corporate partners looking to associate with something cool and where they can showcase their products and services to consumers and B2B prospects.

Coupled with this is a need to promote drivers, particularly in the ladders series, so drivers who leave are not replaced with no names.

I think KK had it about right. Fix Atlantics, become more self sufficient in terms of suppliers, make the cars more affordable, work to rebuild events like Cleveland and create profitable new ones like Edmonton. From my view these and all the events are drawing much more corporate participation.

Europe is a good idea in that it helped bring a sponsors, drivers and perhaps even Stoddard and expands the natural roadcourses they can draw on. China/Asia is a huge market waiting for them (and sponsors) if they can just figure out how to do business there. A lot of companies are finding that tougher than they thought.

The ESPN TV contract is a good investment that was long overdue.

Where I think they missed is they seriously overestimated the ability of teams to market and find their own sponsorship. They needed to go and find some of the best marketers out their to directly and indirectly help team get and exploit sponsorship. NASCAR helps teams professionally prepared sponsor proposals and works with potential sponsors to share best practices around how to get the most from their sponsor dollars.

Rather than subsidize teams directly they should instead say we will spend that money to hire the best marketing talent we can find to help team get and retain top-dollar sponsorships. That promise will also attract new teams.

Now all of that is easier if your product is good. Letting Dinger get away, having a goofy schedule, cancelling races, having one driver win almost every race, modest car counts, etc. makes that job harder. But it is also a chicken and egg issue. One won't get fixed without the other.

[stroker]

I won't criticize someone who put millions of his own money into saving the sport, but until someone puts together an open wheel series that is embraced by a large enough population to draw sponsors and suppliers, it's going to be an uphill slog. I think KK severely underestimated the steepness of the hill.

you're absolutely right about the grade--I think he bought in and then realized he needed to try and approach from the bottom up instead of the top down, but he hasn't gone far enough. I keep thinking back to F5000 in the mid-70's when it was pretty good. I think that level of cost is what CC should be aiming for, but when you compare that to the DP-01, it's not even close. you can't do much about transportation costs, but until they get the series to the point where privateers can run, I think they're going to continue to hemorrhage money. I'm afraid they'll run out of money before they're willing to admit the DP-01 wasn't the answer. (Assuming I'm right, of course) Which leads to--



At some point if it becomes too draining and/or too expensive to carry on, he'll give up and move on.

Absolutely right.


I'm grateful for what he's done, I go to the races, and I hope he can succeed. What else can I do?


Ditto that.

[pchall]

I'm afraid they'll run out of money before they're willing to admit the DP-01 wasn't the answer.

Even if the DP-01 isn't the answer [to whatever question you have] it certainly was necessary. The teams couldn't keep running 5+ year old Lolas. The highest estimate for the serviceable life of a CF tub I ever got was three full seasons of racing given normal wear and tear and repairs, so last season CC was already overdue for new chassis. I've heard that DCR's tubs dated back to 2000 and 2001 and most of the rest came from 2002, except for a couple that FCR had built later than that.

[Boatdesigner]

I'm also grateful for what KK has done. I wonder though if partnering with ALMS and racing on more permanent race courses wouldn't be a far less expensive way to build the series. It would take far fewer fans in the seats to break even. The street courses are awfully expensive to set up and take down. Add in the politics and generally lousy tracks and I wonder if it is worth it in the long run. I do like the airports though, but can't say if they are more or less expensive to set up than a street race.

I wonder if KK had waited a year to cut off the teams and had gotten 2 more teams started if he could have gotten more momentum started. That momentum could have possibly helped the series survive these long droughts and the even longer winter coming up. I don't mind the foreign races, but they should be grouped close together and followed closely by another race here in the States. The long gap after this weekend could actually be the final nail in the coffin, which would be a real shame. I would find a race weekend going on somewhere and find a way to add it to the schedule ASAP.

[Insomniac]

I'm also grateful for what KK has done. I wonder though if partnering with ALMS and racing on more permanent race courses wouldn't be a far less expensive way to build the series. It would take far fewer fans in the seats to break even. The street courses are awfully expensive to set up and take down. Add in the politics and generally lousy tracks and I wonder if it is worth it in the long run. I do like the airports though, but can't say if they are more or less expensive to set up than a street race.

They'd be teaming with something that has more in common with ChampCar than some of the other things they do at their festivals of speed. It would make sense from CC's point of view if they could do it, but would ALMS want to do it?

[Sean O'Gorman]

racing on more permanent race courses wouldn't be a far less expensive way to build the series.

The fact that this painfully obvious answer hasn't been discovered by Champ Car yet is a sign of why the series is doomed to fail.

[FCYTravis]

I agree with pchall, any formula series will feed drivers to F1. Especially when 99% of them are...wait for it...European.

Where do you get this bogus stat that "99%" of formula car drivers are European? It's hogwash, and it's a coverup for the fact that Champ Car team owners have consistently ignored Americans.

There are hundreds if not thousands of formula-car drivers in the United States at all levels of competition, and that home-grown talent can kick serious ass when put in the right situation. Open-wheel team owners squandered opportunity after opportunity when they ignored the American and Canadian talent their own feeder series were turning out (Empringham, Gurney, Fogarty, Hand, Sellers, etc.) in favor of "the next big thing" from some country in Europe I can't pronounce. Then they wondered why people turned them off in droves.

It's not xenophobia to say, straight-up, that a road-racing series based in America should consist of at least 50% American drivers. Those who don't think the profound lack of American talent in Champ Car is a major factor in its decline, are sticking their heads in the sand.

When do Americans pay even the slightest bit of attention to soccer? Yeah, when the American team is doing well. Which Olympic sports get airtime and interest? The ones Americans compete in. Remember how all of a sudden we started hearing about curling for the first time ever? That's because America had a strong team for the first time in, like, ever.

Frankly, I think CCWS should hire whoever did the NBC production of the curling matches, because they managed to make a bunch of people with stones and brooms sliding around on ice into the most exciting thing on sports television. :D

[Sean Malone]

Where do you get this bogus stat that "99%" of formula car drivers are European? It's hogwash, and it's a coverup for the fact that Champ Car team owners have consistently ignored Americans.

:D

I made it up to make a point. :gomer:

But you wrote an excellent post.:thumbup:

[Gnam]

Americans like buddy movies/shows/stories. So, ChampCar could institute the buddy system. Every foreign driver would have to have an American teammate (sidekick). For example, Rahal & Seabass; Almondigger & PT; Figge & Dalziel; Danica & Legge. The combinations are endless. :p

edit: The foreign drivers should still be given nicknames to make them seem more American: Seabass, Bobby D, Fabio, Shorty, Blinky, 'King Hiro, etc.

[mueber]

Americans like buddy movies/shows/stories. So, ChampCar could institute the buddy system. Every foreign driver would have to have an American teammate (sidekick). For example, Rahal & Seabass; Almondigger & PT; Figge & Dalziel; Danica & Legge. The combinations are endless. :p

edit: The foreign drivers should still be given nicknames to make them seem more American: Seabass, Bobby D, Fabio, Shorty, Blinky, 'King Hiro, etc.

and their hometowns should be listed as Nashville, St. Petersburg, Las Vegas and Indianapolis.

[Methanolandbrats]

Americans like buddy movies/shows/stories. So, ChampCar could institute the buddy system. Every foreign driver would have to have an American teammate (sidekick). For example, Rahal & Seabass; Almondigger & PT; Figge & Dalziel; Danica & Legge. The combinations are endless. :p
They tried that with Mario and Mansell........did'nt work :D

[extramundane]

They'd be teaming with something that has more in common with ChampCar than some of the other things they do at their festivals of speed. It would make sense from CC's point of view if they could do it, but would ALMS want to do it?

ALMS fanboys don't want it, but it's pretty clear that ALMS management rather likes the idea of shared events. Granted, all the shared-with-IRL events were bought & paid for by Honda, so IMSA's probably making out like a bandit on those. Whether they'd be willing to "carry" CC for more events is unknown.

'Course, they're not the great shape the forum experts would have you believe either, so a while season of shared events could end up looking like that David Lee Roth/Sammy Hagar tour a few years ago. :\

[FanofMario]

Where do you get this bogus stat that "99%" of formula car drivers are European? It's hogwash, and it's a coverup for the fact that Champ Car team owners have consistently ignored Americans.

There are hundreds if not thousands of formula-car drivers in the United States at all levels of competition, and that home-grown talent can kick serious ass when put in the right situation. Open-wheel team owners squandered opportunity after opportunity when they ignored the American and Canadian talent their own feeder series were turning out (Empringham, Gurney, Fogarty, Hand, Sellers, etc.) in favor of "the next big thing" from some country in Europe I can't pronounce. Then they wondered why people turned them off in droves.

It's not xenophobia to say, straight-up, that a road-racing series based in America should consist of at least 50% American drivers. Those who don't think the profound lack of American talent in Champ Car is a major factor in its decline, are sticking their heads in the sand.

When do Americans pay even the slightest bit of attention to soccer? Yeah, when the American team is doing well. Which Olympic sports get airtime and interest? The ones Americans compete in. Remember how all of a sudden we started hearing about curling for the first time ever? That's because America had a strong team for the first time in, like, ever.

Frankly, I think CCWS should hire whoever did the NBC production of the curling matches, because they managed to make a bunch of people with stones and brooms sliding around on ice into the most exciting thing on sports television. :D

Nice post! The lack of American drivers once the greedy bunch left Champcar was crucial IMO.

Was this the last season of Champcar? :irked:

[jonovision_man]

Was this the last season of Champcar? :irked:

I wouldn't be surprised.

Can it survive another team owner leaving? Or another promoter pulling the plug?

jono

[RTKar]

I wouldn't be surprised.

Can it survive another team owner leaving? Or another promoter pulling the plug?

jono
Heck , how many possible venues are left in the states? Can't be many at this point.

[jonovision_man]

Heck , how many possible venues are left in the states? Can't be many at this point.

If you can make it work in a city the size of Edmonton (~1M people) then you can make it work in a lot of cities out there. In fact I'd say that's an ideal size of city, they're more starved for big events than larger cities.

The far bigger problem IMO is finding people who want to invest in a ChampCar race right now... it's a lot of money to get a street race going especially.

Edmonton numbers:
http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8356

It basically cost them $15M for year 1... that's a big chunk of cash to put into a race when the series is so unstable and cancels more newly announced events than it runs.

New events aside - what about the current calendar? Any cold feet out there from today's promoters?

jono

[Spicoli]

If you can make it work in a city the size of Edmonton (~1M people) then you can make it work in a lot of cities out there. In fact I'd say that's an ideal size of city, they're more starved for big events than larger cities.

The far bigger problem IMO is finding people who want to invest in a ChampCar race right now... it's a lot of money to get a street race going especially.

Edmonton numbers:
http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8356

It basically cost them $15M for year 1... that's a big chunk of cash to put into a race when the series is so unstable and cancels more newly announced events than it runs.

New events aside - what about the current calendar? Any cold feet out there from today's promoters?

jono

Well if perception is reality, then any promoter who is following the CCWS story this year realizes the momentum has this train going downhill, instead of uphill this time last year.

It just amazes me that CCWS has F****d up THIS bad. Sad indeed.:shakehead

[stroker]

Well if perception is reality, then any promoter who is following the CCWS story this year realizes the momentum has this train going downhill, instead of uphill this time last year.

It just amazes me that CCWS has F****d up THIS bad. Sad indeed.:shakehead

What I don't understand is how they're trying to do Phoenix and FAILING when they've got the entire eastern half of the country to develop.

[pchall]

When do Americans pay even the slightest bit of attention to soccer?

When Brandi Chastain strips her jersey off and shows them a full sports bra.

:laugh:

[miatanut]

I think KK & Co. did a great job up to the mid-summer of '06.

The schedule sucked from the start and went from bad to worse.

It was obvious the critical item for this year was getting the TV ratings up. Instead we saw no investment in that, so if you were already a fan, you went to the web page to see when and where it would be on. If you were a casual fan, no way you were going to find it except by accident.

Letting a driver who was on a strong development curve and had a strongly growing fan base slip away.

Flubs with the new car introduction which really started with just having Pupo put miles on it. It seemed to be for the purpose of releasing press releases that nothing broke. I wrote at the time (at CCF) that they should put PT in it to really wring its neck to see where the weak points are. Instead we got to find out after there were 10 of them to update with any fix that was determined to be needed, and not much time before the season started to fix things.

In the last year they haven't been playing to win. They gave up.

Too bad! :(

[Insomniac]

Can it survive another team owner leaving? Or another promoter pulling the plug?

Sure it can. As long as they are willing to foot the bill.

[Insomniac]

Letting a driver who was on a strong development curve and had a strongly growing fan base slip away.

I blame them for a lot. But GF not agreeing to pay AJ an $8M/3yr deal isn't one of them. He hired an agent whjo got him the most money he could get in the short term. Now he may get spit out by NASCAR for Scott Speed. Of course, then he'll probably end up in the IRL...

[jonovision_man]

Sure it can. As long as they are willing to foot the bill.

Up to now they have... but with no signs of this ship turning around, why would they keep doing that? This must be costing them tens of millions of dollars, it's nuts to keep throwing money after it. I sure wouldn't invest in it!

jono

[Insomniac]

Up to now they have... but with no signs of this ship turning around, why would they keep doing that? This must be costing them tens of millions of dollars, it's nuts to keep throwing money after it. I sure wouldn't invest in it!

jono

I didn't say they would keep doing it, but they can keep the series going if they choose to do that. I think CART's stock price told us how good of an investment CC is.

[nissan gtp]

Biggest problem this year was the terrible schedule --- the dates not so much the events.

If CC can't quickly get on a season schedule that keeps racing on every other weekend once it starts, nothing else can be fixed. TV, marketing, potential partners, etc.

To build back up, a schedule with fewer events but with consistent two week gaps would be vastly better. (with some back-to-back, and maybe one 3 week "break" --but NO more).

In non-race weekends, a short Champ Car show (Champ Car debrief ?) should be on the air sometime while the sun is up.

Get the product out where it can be seen, and keep it there. Then start building.

[jonovision_man]

I didn't say they would keep doing it, but they can keep the series going if they choose to do that. I think CART's stock price told us how good of an investment CC is.

The bankruptcy was another good indicator. :)

I didn't mean to imply that you thought they would keep doing it, sorry 'bout that. I was just posing the question - why would they? There doesn't seem to be a reason to expect this thing to turn around if it hasn't already.

jono

[Insomniac]

The bankruptcy was another good indicator. :)

I didn't mean to imply that you thought they would keep doing it, sorry 'bout that. I was just posing the question - why would they? There doesn't seem to be a reason to expect this thing to turn around if it hasn't already.

jono

I'm not sure why they would try, but I'd guess they'd at least give 2008 a shot. I'm not sure when you let go. Will nothing work? Has what they tried been bad ideas and are they learning from their mistakes? Should they give the DP01 more time? I think the biggest question is, how much money are they really losing? They have a lot of assets now, maybe they aren't bleeding as much money, especially without team subsidies. They may be bootstrapping it while they figure out the right way to get CC in the right direction instead of pouring money into the wrong direction.

Would this season be as big of a PR disaster if they dumped $millions more into it or would it have just been wasted money? I'm not sure which it is, but I think we can agree the worst scenario is spending all that money and still having the same season.

Get the schedule, the TV, the racing and venues right. Then go for that great season. Subsidize if you have to to get more full sponsors on the cars.

[jonovision_man]

I've gone back and forth on this one, it's tough to pin down exactly what it's costing them.

Team subsidies - they must be subsidizing the grid. Reduced, yes, DP-01 brought lower costs, but with so few sponsors it's just not possible that all the teams are self-sufficient.

TV - they pay for airtime and unless they got a whole lot better than CART at selling the commercial time they aren't recovering it.

Races - some of the promoters are paying ChampCar! So it's not all self-promotes, there is money coming in from Edmonton for sure, from the European swing, so they replaced some losers with some winners recently. If they hadn't hosed Zhuhai I'll bet that one would have been cashflow positive for the series. I'd imagine LB and Toronto bring in money, probably others too.

I don't really want to venture a guess as to the dollar figure, but between their own teams and the series there's got to be millions of outflow to this day. Not to mention the bath they've taken on Cosworth and their fortunes in F1-land. It just hasn't gone to plan...

jono

[Methanolandbrats]

I've gone back and forth on this one, it's tough to pin down exactly what it's costing them.

Team subsidies - they must be subsidizing the grid. Reduced, yes, DP-01 brought lower costs, but with so few sponsors it's just not possible that all the teams are self-sufficient.

TV - they pay for airtime and unless they got a whole lot better than CART at selling the commercial time they aren't recovering it.

Races - some of the promoters are paying ChampCar! So it's not all self-promotes, there is money coming in from Edmonton for sure, from the European swing, so they replaced some losers with some winners recently. If they hadn't hosed Zhuhai I'll bet that one would have been cashflow positive for the series. I'd imagine LB and Toronto bring in money, probably others too.

I don't really want to venture a guess as to the dollar figure, but between their own teams and the series there's got to be millions of outflow to this day. Not to mention the bath they've taken on Cosworth and their fortunes in F1-land. It just hasn't gone to plan...

jono Ya, but if you're racing for prize money, it's tax deductable as advertising :gomer:

[jonovision_man]

Heck, after all the years of losses they should register as a charity. :D

jono

[miatanut]

I blame them for a lot. But GF not agreeing to pay AJ an $8M/3yr deal isn't one of them. He hired an agent whjo got him the most money he could get in the short term. Now he may get spit out by NASCAR for Scott Speed. Of course, then he'll probably end up in the IRL...

I was thinking Nelson. AJA was 2 1/2 years of disappointment and then finally got it together.

Nelson was definitely building a following, was photogenic, loved the camera, and could have attracted some attention. The ownership was more interested in making a point about not subsidizing teams than in creating some driver stability which could attract fans.

[Insomniac]

I was thinking Nelson. AJA was 2 1/2 years of disappointment and then finally got it together.

Nelson was definitely building a following, was photogenic, loved the camera, and could have attracted some attention. The ownership was more interested in making a point about not subsidizing teams than in creating some driver stability which could attract fans.

Ohhh, ok. Yeah, Speedy Dan was the better choice...

[whaaat]

The fact that this painfully obvious answer hasn't been discovered by Champ Car yet is a sign of why the series is doomed to fail.

Seems to me they added Tremblant, Zolder and Assen with more rumored.

[Ruben Barrios]

^^ And lost how many before the end of the season???

[Insomniac]

^^ And lost how many before the end of the season???

Two of them were street races.

[Ruben Barrios]

^^ And how many ovals?

[Insomniac]

^^ And how many ovals?

None.

[Ruben Barrios]

^^^ oh really?? Wow I missed those oval race this year, I must have been asleep...

[nrc]

^^^ oh really?? Wow I missed those oval race this year, I must have been asleep...

What the heck are you talking about?

[Insomniac]

What the heck are you talking about?

I'd like to know too! I'm just as confused as you are.

[Spicoli]

Seems to me they added Tremblant, Zolder and Assen with more rumored.:\

[Ruben Barrios]

Talk about dense... Ovals were completely dropped for 2007...

[Insomniac]

Talk about dense... Ovals were completely dropped for 2007...

We're talking about cancelled races that were scheduled, not dropped races. No ovals were scheduled for 2007. We all knew that when the schedule was released. Are you going to point out that the super speedways are gone too?

[Methanolandbrats]

We're talking about cancelled races that were scheduled, not dropped races. No ovals were scheduled for 2007. We all knew that when the schedule was released. Are you going to point out that the super speedways are gone too?
The lack of board tracks has me upset :gomer:

[nrc]

Talk about dense... Ovals were completely dropped for 2007...

And the point of stating this obvious fact is?

[JLMannin]

I'm afraid they'll run out of money before they're willing to admit the DP-01 wasn't the answer.

EVERYONE knows the answer is 42.

:D

[Ruben Barrios]

And the point of stating this obvious fact is?
Well you'd have to read to understand, when you jump in the middle of something and don't bother to read the previous posts it's unlikely you'll get any point...

Bottom line the same chearleaders as always trying to sell the fact that three tracks were added


We're talking about cancelled races that were scheduled, not dropped races. No ovals were scheduled for 2007. We all knew that when the schedule was released. Are you going to point out that the super speedways are gone too?

Oh are we??


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean O'Gorman
The fact that this painfully obvious answer hasn't been discovered by Champ Car yet is a sign of why the series is doomed to fail.


Seems to me they added Tremblant, Zolder and Assen with more rumored.


All this time I thought we were talking about the state of affairs...

[Insomniac]

Well you'd have to read to understand, when you jump in the middle of something and don't bother to read the previous posts it's unlikely you'll get any point...

Bottom line the same chearleaders as always trying to sell the fact that three tracks were added

Let me summarize/paraphrase for you.

Boatdesigner: Racing on permanent road courses would be a lot cheaper than street races.
Sean O'Gorman: I have no idea why this isn't obvious to CC.
whaaat: They added 3 permanent road courses.
You: ^^ And lost how many before the end of the season??? [Note that we're all talking about permanent road courses (cheaper than street courses) so far.]
Me: Two of them (the lost ones) were street races.
You: ^^ And how many ovals? [No one is talking about ovals still.]
Me: None.
You: ^^^ oh really?? Wow I missed those oval race this year, I must have been asleep...
nrc: What the heck are you talking about?
Me: I'd like to know too! I'm just as confused as you are.
You: Talk about dense... Ovals were completely dropped for 2007...
Me: We're not talking about ovals, on top of that, none were cancelled.
nrc: And the point of stating this obvious fact is?

Perhaps you should read the posts before you reply and jump in the middle.

[NismoZ]

Reminds me of how my wife and I used to "communicate" sometimes after a hard day of work related BS.:D

[Elmo T]

Reminds me of how my wife and I used to "communicate" sometimes after a hard day of work related BS.:D

Now I know why this conversation sounded familiar. ;)

"Do you walk to school or carry your lunch?"

Beside the point about permanent road courses being cheaper (no set-up, etc)... and perhaps beating the dead horse - The PR problem is that events are cancelled after being scheduled and/or midseason. WTF. Run the event or not. Want to alienate the true fans (those who go to races), cancel an event after they've adjusted a vacation schedule, booked hotels, booked travel, etc. And then try to convince them to book for another race event next season.

[jonovision_man]

It's cheaper to run a road race than a street race, but the sponsorship opportunities and attendance at the street races have been far superior. Especially in the U.S.

There is a reason both series are adding them...

jono

[OW]

We're talking about cancelled races that were scheduled, not dropped races.

I believe Insomniac examplified holding onto the true essence of this thread.....

Great go-round...

Personally?...I was simply thinking of KK's heart and efforts.. when Phoenix was canceled.... and I learned to better off, wait for another adjunct/reason for going (spending hard earned $) to see my brother in Phoenix..cause the main (perfect) circumference was canceled.

And was curious of opinions...of how KK tried... yet resulting in cancellation.

It is good to see that no one thought that KK's heart for CC is diminished. We all hope he can hold on.

SO we don't blame KK for giving his all????.... and holding the line on not "buying" races. (un-like You know who)

Thanks guys

OW
PS. My bro and I are big boys.. we can handle it...just missed a beautiful mix.
We applied for Grandstand Ushering.....

PPS...I prolly killed the thread? I'm not looking for records.

[cart7]

IMO.

KK & Company vastly over estimated the appeal of Street festivals.
They over estimated the CART fanbase's ability to forgive them for loading the schedule up with street festivals and dumping ovals and too many road courses.
They've had too many venues cancelled.
They've had too many prospective venues disappear off the face of the earth or go nowhere at all, ie:Philly, that airfield outside of NY, San Antonio. I'm probably missing some I've forgotten.
You'll never build a fanbase from street races.
Long Beach, when combined with a diverse schedule of ovals, roads and some street races is a nice event, stand alone, it's not worthy of Marquee event status.
They've failed to realize you can't build a fanbase when the driver lineup changes more often than the wind.
They've had too many broken promises.
Half the fans can't stand the guy winning most of the races.
The other big name star is long in the tooth and washed up.
Thinking the DP-01 would somehow make folks want to watch a race.
Rolling out a new chassis the same year they cut everyone off the dole. Especially at a time when corporate America couldn't give a rats *** about OW and especially the brand CCWS is trying to peddle.
A long standing problem with judicial matters involving races that were held or aren't going to be.
The leader of the series wasting time talking to penguins.


Most importantly, it's a series about nothing. Nothing other than 3 or 4 guys with a bunch of money throwing s**t on the wall and hoping something sticks.

[DagoFast]

Most importantly, it's a series about nothing.

But it worked for Seinfeld! :\