BOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAA!

[Dirty Sanchez]

Newsflash: McLaren excluded from 2007-08

The World Motor Sport Council has decided to exclude McLaren-Mercedes from the 2007 and 2008 Formula One world championship.

More details to follow shortly...

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

[opinionated ow]

where did you get that info.....i'm digging and finding nothing so far.

[SteveH]

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/

[dando]

:eek:

:thumbup: :thumbup:

-Kevin

[NismoZ]

Constructor AND drivers?

[cameraman]

Amazing how they can manage to leak news to the press while the meeting is still going on. That is a real professional operation they have going there:irked:

[TrueBrit]

That is NOT what I am hearing...as of right now the decision is still pending...

[Dirty Sanchez]

that initial report has been clarified... still looks grim for McLaren :thumbup:

FIA propose McLaren`s expulsion

According to reports on the BBC, the FIA's World Motor Sport Council has proposed that McLaren are excluded from the 2007 and 2008 World Championships.

However, the corporation claims that the exact nature of the punishment which will be meted out is still being discussed.

As such, Lewis Hamilton's World Championship bid may yet be rekindled, with McLaren expelled from the Constructors' Championship but both Alonso and Hamilton permitted to compete for the Drivers' title.

[stroker]

No Ferrari bias here to see, folks, just move along...

[TrueBrit]

No Ferrari bias here to see, folks, just move along...

No effing kidding...

[Fio1]

Well, the FIA managed to kill a great championship. I guess we all have to be Nascar fans now.........They made F1 like boxing with this B.S! :shakehead

[TrueBrit]

that initial report has been clarified... still looks grim for McLaren :thumbup:

FIA propose McLaren`s expulsion

According to reports on the BBC, the FIA's World Motor Sport Council has proposed that McLaren are excluded from the 2007 and 2008 World Championships.

However, the corporation claims that the exact nature of the punishment which will be meted out is still being discussed.

As such, Lewis Hamilton's World Championship bid may yet be rekindled, with McLaren expelled from the Constructors' Championship but both Alonso and Hamilton permitted to compete for the Drivers' title.


Nothing new there...they knew they might face expulsion....that is just the BBC surmising what might happen...not what has happened...

[Dirty Sanchez]

Nothing new there...they knew they might face expulsion....that is just the BBC surmising what might happen...not what has happened...uh nothing new eh? they've heard the evidence and have recommended expulsion from the 07/08 championship. I'd say that's a new development.

[TrueBrit]

uh nothing new eh? they've heard the evidence and have recommended expulsion from the 07/08 championship. I'd say that's a new development.

They always KNEW that if they were found guilty they would face expulsion, so no, it ISN'T a new development...

Nobody has recommended ANYTHING yet...

[Dirty Sanchez]

FIA's World Motor Sport Council has proposed that McLaren are excluded from the 2007 and 2008 World Championships. (http://www.planet-f1.com/)

[Methanolandbrats]

Ron, Jesus Hamilton and Fred are conspiring, cheating bastards and that's Ferrari's fault? Interesting logic to arrive at that :shakehead

[Spicoli]

oh dear. :rofl:

[Dirty Sanchez]

propose (http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/propose)

[TrueBrit]

FIA's World Motor Sport Council has proposed that McLaren are excluded from the 2007 and 2008 World Championships. (http://www.planet-f1.com/)

Um...what part of "it is believed" don't you understand as being conjecture?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/conjecture

[TrueBrit]

Ron, Jesus Hamilton and Fred are conspiring, cheating bastards and that's Ferrari's fault? Interesting logic to arrive at that :shakehead

Got proof of that?

Didn't think so.

Next?

[Dirty Sanchez]

from autosport:

Clarification: WMSC yet to decide on verdict

By Steve Cooper
Thursday, September 13th 2007, 15:09 GMT

The World Motor Sport Council has yet to agree on a final verdict, despite our earlier newsflash suggesting otherwise.

Sources have told autosport.com one of the options currently reviewed is to exclude McLaren from both the 2007 and 2008 championship - in line with the World Motor Sport Council's decision in July.

However the FIA said no decision has yet been made, although a verdict is expected imminently.

[TrueBrit]

Regardless of what the verdict is today rest assured that there will be various appeals....either from the sore losers Ferrari, or the wrongly convicted McLaren...

[TrueBrit]

Okay...NOW it's official...stripped of theri manufacturers points this year...drivers keekp theirs...submit their cars for examination next year..plus a pile of cash..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/6991147.stm

Countdown to appeal in 3, 2, 1....

[Spicoli]

The team was also hit with a record $100m (£49.2m) fine but drivers Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso will be allowed to keep their points.

:saywhat:

[ferrarigod]

No effing kidding...

give me a ****ing break. the first coucil they got off scott free. then came emails and more info that fernando and pdlr were talking about what setups ferrari uses on the F2007.

they did it to themselves.

The fact that they get to keep the drivers points is THE biggest sign that no matter what happens the FIA/F1 wants Hamilton to win.

buy a clue.

[ferrarigod]

Regardless of what the verdict is today rest assured that there will be various appeals....either from the sore losers Ferrari, or the wrongly convicted McLaren...

:rolleyes: pathetic.

[TrueBrit]

give me a ****ing break. the first coucil they got off scott free. then came emails and more info that fernando and pdlr were talking about what setups ferrari uses on the F2007.

they did it to themselves.

The fact that they get to keep the drivers points is THE biggest sign that no matter what happens the FIA/F1 wants Hamilton to win.

buy a clue.

Here's a clue for you sparky, when was the last time the dirty,cheating, chopping pointy-chinned bastards' former team was EVER held accountable for anything....

How about NEVER....

You've read the e-mails I assume?

No?

I didn't think so...

[TrueBrit]

:rolleyes: pathetic.

Hey, dumbass it was a joke...or do you not know how to read....

What a :gomer:

[Dr. Corkski]

I can't see Ron Dennis appealing this any further. He has far more important things to do such as keeping food out of the Paragon.

[TrueBrit]

I can't see Ron Dennis appealing this any further. He has far more important things to do such as keeping food out of the Paragon.

A Fifty million-quid fine?

I guarantee that Uncle Ron will appeal....

That's alot of money...even to him....;)

[Methanolandbrats]

Got proof of that?

Didn't think so.

Next? :laugh: No I don't have the proof, but apparently the FIA does. :rofl:

[cameraman]

McLaren races in 2008
Alonso & Hamilton are fine
McLaren gets to race to put an * by the Ferrari name for 2007
McLaren gets fined BUT


Furthermore, the team will pay a fine equal to $100m, less the FOM income lost as a result of the points deduction.

So exactly how much are they being fined and will we ever even know the real number?
Isn't the FOM income secret?

[Gnam]

I can't see Ron Dennis appealing this any further. He has far more important things to do such as keeping food out of the Paragon.
If the FIA really wanted to punish McLaren they should have forced Ron Dennis to host an season ending party. Party games would include paintball wars, mud wrestling, and throwing stuff against a red teflon wall to see if it sticks. Door gifts would include specs and testing data for the 2007 and 2008 McLaren cars, driver testing notes, and one IOU card that entitles the holder to one heart felt apology from Ron Dennis.

[tllips]

The team was also hit with a record $100m (£49.2m) fine

I had heard a few years ago that teams like Ferrari had a $500 million annual budget. If so, granted it's a big chunk o' change, but it is only 20% of their annual budget. Unless his sponsors turn tail, they should be able to absorb this within a couple of years.

[Dirty Sanchez]

sweet.

cheating bastards :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

[jonovision_man]

Pretty good penalty.

But.

Alonso and Hamilton get the benefit of information they weren't suppose to have, and don't lose any points for it? While driving in a car that benefitted from spy data? Doesn't seem right.

jono

[ferrarigod]

Here's a clue for you sparky, when was the last time the dirty,cheating, chopping pointy-chinned bastards' former team was EVER held accountable for anything....

How about NEVER....

You've read the e-mails I assume?

No?

I didn't think so...

The Fiarrari has the McLaren info, where is the Schumacher cheating emails/car papers from 1996-2006? Someone would have to have something in over10 years at Ferrari.

And Ferrari has never been accountable for anything? How about '97 taking everything from Schumacher/Ferrari for his points. Disqualifying them TOTALLY from the Championship after Jerez's crash.

[ferrarigod]

Pretty good penalty.

But.

Alonso and Hamilton get the benefit of information they weren't suppose to have, and don't lose any points for it? While driving in a car that benefitted from spy data? Doesn't seem right.

jono

EXACTLY. I don't care what team it was, the fact that drivers don't get penalised for the team is retarded. Is this now a team sport or an individual sport?

So Spyker should just say screw the constructors, strap on missles and go after the top teams, I mean, the drivers didn't build the heat seeking missles, so how can they be held responsible, they were just driver the illegal car.

:rolleyes:

[Dirty Sanchez]

I look at it as a way to try and preserve the public's interest in the WDC the rest of the way... it gives McLaren some way to appease their sponsors, etc too.

I don't necessarily agree with it either, but I do understand it.

[Methanolandbrats]

To really teach Ron a lesson, there should be a ban on dusting and window washing at the Palace for one year. And it should be mandatory for all the employees to eat at their desks. :D

[TrueBrit]

To really teach Ron a lesson, there should be a ban on dusting and window washing at the Palace for one year. And it should be mandatory for all the employees to eat at their desks. :D

You are a CRUEL bastard!!:D

[Insomniac]

The first decision made no sense and now this one makes no sense. They are now ruled to have benefited from the information. They pay a fine, lose all their points for the Manufacturer's championship, but keep the driver points. I don't know what else to make of that than they want to make sure Hamilton and Alonso can still win the WDC, despite the illegal benefit they've had and will continue to have. :confused:

[Fio1]

I believe we must to wait until the documents are made public to see exactly what McLaren did. From what I've read, I don't think McLaren did anything wrong. But, obviously they did, or the verdict won't be what it is. So, I'll wait until I read the 150 page document before making up my mind.

But, if you fine McLaren 100 million, plus take away their constructor points 2007, you are basically saying their car is illegal, correct? Then, why are Hamilton & Alonso allowed to keep their points? :shakehead That makes no sense......

[TrueBrit]

I believe we must to wait until the documents are made public to see exactly what McLaren did. From what I've read, I don't think McLaren did anything wrong. But, obviously they did, or the verdict won't be what it is. So, I'll wait until I read the 150 page document before making up my mind.

But, if you fine McLaren 100 million, plus take away their constructor points 2007, you are basically saying their car is illegal, correct? Then, why are Hamilton & Alonso allowed to keep their points? :shakehead That makes no sense......

Exactly...in order to earn the fine they must have been found to have somehow benefitted from the info...so why are the drivers left as is...???

It's also why I think there'll be an appeal from Uncle Ron on the $$ amount...plus...if he and his team were found guilty, what's to stop him from throwing Ferrari under the bus with their illegal car?

This whole thing is a mess from beginning to end...

[Dr. Corkski]

The whole proof thing is optional until a British team or driver is involved.

[Dirty Sanchez]

according to the FIA the drivers are not punished because they cooperated...


However, due to the exceptional circumstances in which the FIA gave the team's drivers an immunity in return for providing evidence, there is no penalty in regards to drivers' points

[Methanolandbrats]

Exactly...in order to earn the fine they must have been found to have somehow benefitted from the info...so why are the drivers left as is...???

It's also why I think there'll be an appeal from Uncle Ron on the $$ amount...plus...if he and his team were found guilty, what's to stop him from throwing Ferrari under the bus with their illegal car?

This whole thing is a mess from beginning to end... The drivers are left as is because if they screwed up the drivers championship they know hundreds of millions of television sets would be turned off and they can't have that :)

[Sean Malone]

Things I've learned...

1. engineers in F1 make horrible cheaters.
2. If you are given secret documents and you need copies...don't take them to Office Depot.
3. Don't ask your wife to copy your secret documents.

[Dirty Sanchez]

looks like Alonso is free to leave McLaren next year now also :laugh:

[Dirty Sanchez]

can't wait til this weekend's race... wonder if we'll get some more crocodile tears out of Ron Dennis :rofl:

[Easy]

I heard the verdict on the beeb during lunch and almost swerved onto the sidewalk in hysterics when she said $100,000,000.

How long till the McLaren to ChampCar posts start at Fantasy Island?

[jonovision_man]

I look at it as a way to try and preserve the public's interest in the WDC the rest of the way... it gives McLaren some way to appease their sponsors, etc too.

I don't necessarily agree with it either, but I do understand it.

You're right, that's exactly what this is.

"How can we punish McLaren without screwing up the season?"

The constructors isn't the important championship, the WDC is. Now McLaren will win it as cheaters. Doesn't seem right.

Hamilton would be better off not winning the championship now IMO, better not to have that cloud of suspicion over your first one. Just ask Schumacher...

jono

[TrueBrit]

The drivers are left as is because if they screwed up the drivers championship they know hundreds of millions of television sets would be turned off and they can't have that :)

Well yeah....

[TrueBrit]

better not to have that cloud of suspicion over your first one. Just ask Schumacher...

jono

That pointy-chinned, dirty, cheating, chopping bastard didn't seem to mind...

[TrueBrit]

The FIArrari is due to release the report this friday...should make for some interesting reading...

[Dirty Sanchez]

Mercedes is reportedly "shocked" by the verdict... bwhahahahahahahha

[Tony George]

I heard the verdict on the beeb during lunch and almost swerved onto the sidewalk in hysterics when she said $100,000,000.

How long till the McLaren to ChampCar posts start at Fantasy Island?

,,,,,, :tony: ,,,,,,

[Insomniac]

In the end, when Hamilton or Alonso win the championship, will anyone really realize McLaren isn;t the champion but Ferrari was? For all intents and purposes, McLaren will be the champs.

[Dirty Sanchez]

I guarantee that Uncle Ron will appeal....Eddie Jordan disagrees with you.


He also cast doubt on McLaren's ability to appeal the decision, saying that Britiain's Royal Automobile Club, which all appeals have to go through, may take a stand against such an action.

"McLaren can't appeal themselves. They have to go through the RAC. Will they want them to and have their name involved too?"

[TrueBrit]

Eddie Jordan disagrees with you.

And Ron Dennis disagrees with you and Eddie Jordan...."The World Motor Sport Council said it would publish the reasoning behind its verdict on Friday.

And McLaren team chief Ron Dennis said he would wait until then before deciding whether to appeal.

"We believe we have grounds for appeal but of course we are going to wait for the findings of the FIA which are going to be published," Dennis explained."

[TrueBrit]

This isn't over by a long shot....

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_2727015,00.html

"Today's evidence given to the FIA by our drivers, engineers and staff clearly demonstrated that we did not use any leaked information to gain a competitive advantage."


And...

"McLaren CEO Martin Whitmarsh confirmed that the team were considering an appeal but would study the FIA's statement before making their decision."

[Fio1]

The 100,000,000 is basically money owed to McLaren or will be owed to McLaren from TV money etc. I don't think Ron Denis will have to write a check, he just won't be receiving any for a while....

[Dirty Sanchez]

so you guarantee that Uncle Ron will consider an appeal? :laugh: :gomer:

[Dr. Corkski]

I heard the verdict on the beeb during lunch and almost swerved onto the sidewalk in hysterics when she said $100,000,000.

How long till the McLaren to ChampCar posts start at Fantasy Island?Dennis should team up with Gentilozzi. It will be a perfect partnership since one is a pathological liar when it comes to integrity, and the other about money.

[jonovision_man]

McLaren was just fined more than all the budgets of all the ChampCar teams combined...

It's a pretty outrageous amount of money for a fine. Spying in F1 has been going on for so long, this isn't new, they just got caught.

jono

[TrueBrit]

so you guarantee that Uncle Ron will consider an appeal? :laugh: :gomer:

:rolleyes: Let's see after Friday shall we smart arse? He says he and his team didn't gain an advantage or use any of the info, so exactly what the basis of the fine is should be interesting to say the least...

And no, jenius, he is ALREADY considering an appeal, what is it with gomers and not being able to read....:confused:

[cameraman]

The constructors isn't the important championship, the WDC is. Now that is downright delusional.

[Dr. Corkski]

He says he and his team didn't gain an advantage or use any of the info, so exactly what the basis of the fine is should be interesting to say the least...Totally, it's not like Dennis and McLaren have been caught lying about anything recently. :rofl:

[Ed_Severson]

I heard the verdict on the beeb during lunch and almost swerved onto the sidewalk in hysterics when she said $100,000,000.

How long till the McLaren to ChampCar posts start at Fantasy Island?

It happened at exactly the same time you posted this.

Do you think the Mclaren/FIA battle will have any beneficial affect on champcar? (http://champcarfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47586) :gomer:

[jonovision_man]

Now that is downright delusional.

:rolleyes:

Nobody remembers who wins the constructors, it's all about the WDC. Anyone who tells 'ya different is lying to you. Or named Frank Williams.

jono

[TrueBrit]

:rolleyes:

Nobody remembers who wins the constructors, it's all about the WDC. Anyone who tells 'ya different is lying to you. Or named Frank Williams.

jono

Ed-Zackery!:thumbup:

[Dirty Sanchez]

:cool:

1 Ferrari 143
2 BMW-Sauber 86
3 Renault 38
4 Williams 25
5 Red Bull 16
6 Toyota 12
7 Super Aguri 4
8 Honda 2
9 Toro Rosso 0
10 Spyker 0
— McLaren EX (welcome to the crap end of the pitlane next year :D )

[cameraman]

Nobody remembers who wins the constructors, it's all about the WDC. Anyone who tells 'ya different is lying to you. Or named Frank Williams.

jono

Yeah right, Ferrari, Mercedes Benz, Renault, BMW, Honda and Toyota don't give a damn who wins the constructors, they spend their money to gain glory for their drivers. Whatever.

[TrueBrit]

Yeah right, Ferrari, Mercedes Benz, Renault, BMW, Honda and Toyota don't give a damn who wins the constructors, they spend their money to gain glory for their drivers. Whatever.


Nobody other than the manufacturers give a damn etc etc etc....ie the punters don't give a toss....

[Spicoli]

It happened at exactly the same time you posted this.

Do you think the Mclaren/FIA battle will have any beneficial affect on champcar? (http://champcarfanatics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=47586) :gomer:



lmfao. :rofl:

needs more,,,science ,,teacher,,,

[Ankf00]

don't go jizzing in your pants all at once now ;)

[ferrarigod]

In the end, when Hamilton or Alonso win the championship, will anyone really realize McLaren isn;t the champion but Ferrari was? For all intents and purposes, McLaren will be the champs.

an this is another reason why they shouldn't be allowed in the drivers either.

it makes no sense, except to give Hamilton a shot at the title. which is inexcusable.

[NismoZ]

Kinda like fining the crap out of the Patriots for sideline video taping rules violations, then later passing out all the superbowl rings to the players but witholding the Super Bowl trophy. The really important thing though is both McLaren and New England have apologized!:rofl: (dang pesky rules interpretations, ya know?)

[NismoZ]

Or, a family "friend" robs his business and asks me to hold the money bag for him saying it was il-gotten gains anyway. After testifying I don't have possession of any such money it is discovered under my bed so I say I'm sorry and afterall I didn't USE any of it!:D Let 'em swing!

[jonovision_man]

Yeah right, Ferrari, Mercedes Benz, Renault, BMW, Honda and Toyota don't give a damn who wins the constructors, they spend their money to gain glory for their drivers. Whatever.

You don't think Schuey winning championships got Ferrari noticed? :rolleyes:

WDC is everything, and the team that wins it gets the accolades. The constructors is an after-thought, people care but not nearly as much.

jono

[oddlycalm]

So exactly how much are they being fined and will we ever even know the real number? Isn't the FOM income secret? You're exactly right of course, the FOM money will likely cover it and they won't be writing a check. On the other hand, they won't have the $100 million coming in and will have to find another source for that money. Painful any way you slice it.

oc

[Insomniac]

Kinda like fining the crap out of the Patriots for sideline video taping rules violations, then later passing out all the superbowl rings to the players but witholding the Super Bowl trophy. The really important thing though is both McLaren and New England have apologized!:rofl: (dang pesky rules interpretations, ya know?)

One difference is Bill Belichick admitted he did it and isn't considering an appeal. He also apologized to the fans. ;)

[Easy]

You don't think Schuey winning championships got Ferrari noticed? :rolleyes:

WDC is everything, and the team that wins it gets the accolades. The constructors is an after-thought, people care but not nearly as much.

jono

The WDC is the one that gets more coverage but the WCC pays about 4-5 times as much money.

[jonovision_man]

The WDC is the one that gets more coverage but the WCC pays about 4-5 times as much money.

Allegedly... it's in the Concorde Agreement so it's not clear what it really pays.

But people have gleaned quite a bit over the years, it's pretty complex:
http://www.concordeagreement.com/Schedule10.html

jono

[rosawendel]

somewhere a montoya is laughing.

[SteveH]

somewhere a montoya is laughing.

Along with Kimi.

[Dirty Sanchez]

has McLaren appealed yet? :rofl:

[Ankf00]

One difference is Bill Belichick admitted he did it and isn't considering an appeal. He also apologized to the fans. "I'm sorry I did this, even though we've been told not to before and have been caught red-handed in the past, and were told by the league before the season not to, but I still told the same employee to do the same illegal activity again anyway. Really, I'm sorry."

yea, stand up guy :laugh:

[TrueBrit]

has McLaren appealed yet? :rofl:

From itv...."Dennis added that McLaren is still considering whether to appeal Thursday's WMSC verdict.

“We now have seven days to appeal and are carefully considering the company’s position once we have a full understanding of the FIA’s findings,” he said."

But you knew that right?:gomer:

[Dirty Sanchez]

yeah, I did know that. I'll check back tomorrow anyway :laugh:






also... what is there to understand, Ron? you cheated and got busted :D

[Fio1]

After reading the 14 page PDF file, I have come to the conclusion that not only is the McLaren penalty warrant, but that de la Rosa should be stripped of his Super License and never alowed to receive one again. Stephany and Coughlan should also be banned from international motorsports for life.:shakehead

On the other hand, I wonder what kind of gas Ferrari and now posibly McLaren are using in their tires? A gas that would stay consitent (not expand) and keep cool?

[stroker]

On the other hand, I wonder what kind of gas Ferrari and now posibly McLaren are using in their tires? A gas that would stay consitent (not expand) and keep cool?

I'm guessing nitrogen. Same stuff as they used in the tires of the SR-71.

[TrueBrit]

yeah, I did know that. I'll check back tomorrow anyway :laugh:






also... what is there to understand, Ron? you cheated and got busted :D

Ron cheated? Really? Got any evidence to back that up?




















Didn't think so...:rolleyes:

[Fio1]

I'm guessing nitrogen. Same stuff as they used in the tires of the SR-71.

No, everyone already uses nitrogen. It's something else...

The fact that de la Rosa requested information, in writing, which he knew was from a reliable source makes McLaren guilty. It's one thing if someone tells you something, it's another if you ask for specifics. Guilty!

[Fio1]

Here is the link to the 14 page PDF file. Very interesting!

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

[Dirty Sanchez]

Ron cheated? Really? Got any evidence to back that up?




















Didn't think so...:rolleyes:I don't... but the FIA does. thus the penalty :p

[Methanolandbrats]

I don't... but the FIA does. thus the penalty :p
He tried that defense on page 2 :)

[Ed_Severson]

Pretty interesting stuff. I find it a bit intriguing that Ron Dennis isn't mentioned at all in the document published by the FIA. I wonder if it's possible that Coughlan and his associates made a concerted effort to keep Dennis out of the loop so Ron could have plausible deniability in the event the **** ever hit the fan. For a hands-on guy like Ron it seems unlikely that he would have been completely unaware this was going on, yet the FIA seems to either have zero evidence of that, or a complete lack of interest in his role.

Oh, and whoever it was that composed that document should be dragged into the street and shot. That was horribly written in some spots. While reading, I had a pretty good mental image of ol' Brownshirt Max sitting at his desk pounding out run-on sentences whilst patting himself on the back for his mastery of the English language. :laugh:

[TrueBrit]

While reading, I had a pretty good mental image of ol' Brownshirt Max sitting at his desk pounding out run-on sentences whilst patting himself on the back for his mastery of the English language. :laugh:

:rofl: :thumbup: :D

[Insomniac]

"I'm sorry I did this, even though we've been told not to before and have been caught red-handed in the past, and were told by the league before the season not to, but I still told the same employee to do the same illegal activity again anyway. Really, I'm sorry."

yea, stand up guy :laugh:

Hey! There was a smiley at the end of that! He was quite stupid/arrogant, that's for sure. They deserved whatever punishment came down after being caught and warned in the past.