CDW Moving On?

[NismoZ]

Ol' RM says it looks like Justin Wilson still has the inside track on Bourdais' seat at N/H/L but CDW is looking to go to ALMS. Any further discussion on who played the "support" role at the RA combine?

[stroker]

Unless KK & Co. have a list of signed sponsors for '08 (WAH, WAH, WAH!) they'd better do something to retain CDW. They're the only significant company that's invested any cash in CC at all.

[Indy]

Unless KK & Co. have a list of signed sponsors for '08 (WAH, WAH, WAH!) they'd better do something to retain CDW. They're the only significant company that's invested any cash in CC at all.

Would a forward thinking management team not just make them series sponsor for 2008 for free? I am assuming of course that the mythical companies waiting in the wings to be the series sponors are just that - mythical.

At this point, do it on the cheap and get it done. Do it for team sponsors, too! Offer teams a rebate on sponsorship -- for every dollar you attract, the series will double it. Get the whole damned thing painted up and looking impressive for '08, and then maybe you can actually attract some interest in the series!

But, of course, that will require investment.

[Insomniac]

Would a forward thinking management team not just make them series sponsor for 2008 for free? I am assuming of course that the mythical companies waiting in the wings to be the series sponors are just that - mythical.

At this point, do it on the cheap and get it done. Do it for team sponsors, too! Offer teams a rebate on sponsorship -- for every dollar you attract, the series will double it. Get the whole damned thing painted up and looking impressive for '08, and then maybe you can actually attract some interest in the series!

But, of course, that will require investment.

I've been hoping that they don't want to give any type of sponsorship for a discount. Otherwise, things are really bad when you can't get 2 cars painted with a primary sponsor even at a steep discount.

[Indy]

I've been hoping that they don't want to give any type of sponsorship for a discount. Otherwise, things are really bad when you can't get 2 cars painted with a primary sponsor even at a steep discount.

True. It could be worse than I think. :saywhat:

[jonovision_man]

True. It could be worse than I think. :saywhat:

Ryan!
Jimmy!

jono

[Wheel-Nut]

Ryan!
Jimmy!

jono

But those cars were on the track. Who cares who pays for it? As long as there are cars on the track, that's all that matters.

[Andrew Longman]

I've been hoping that they don't want to give any type of sponsorship for a discount. Otherwise, things are really bad when you can't get 2 cars painted with a primary sponsor even at a steep discount.


Agreed. The real benefit of sponsorship is what the sponsors do with it. Using the driver in their ads to promote their product, buying suites and conducting giveaways at race, buying sponsorship at races and helping to promote them, etc. is in many ways more helpful to the series than the decals on the cars.

If they don't pay much for the sponsorship then they aren't going to be very committed to do the other things.

BTW I wonder if their itch to gp to ALMS has anything to do with losing the SJ race. That race was supposed to help bring in the high tech community to series sponsorship

[Insomniac]

Agreed. The real benefit of sponsorship is what the sponsors do with it. Using the driver in their ads to promote their product, buying suites and conducting giveaways at race, buying sponsorship at races and helping to promote them, etc. is in many ways more helpful to the series than the decals on the cars.

If they don't pay much for the sponsorship then they aren't going to be very committed to do the other things.

Would there be an advantage to cutting a discount in exchange for a commitment to buy advertising time and having on track hospitality? It give the appearance that they can get sponsors.

There has been a debate about the IRL going socialist and comparisons to the NFL. To really do that in a series, you'd want to funnel all the money you can through one point and then divide it up evenly. Put all the sponsorship in a basket and draw ping-pong balls to decide which teams get what. Every team has a similar operating budget and you could leave some areas on each car for associate sponsors that the team can go out and find for more money.

[slashman]

I've been hoping that they don't want to give any type of sponsorship for a discount. Otherwise, things are really bad when you can't get 2 cars painted with a primary sponsor even at a steep discount.

How do you think the IRL does it...^^^^^

[shaggy_socal]

If a company gets to sponsor a car(s) at a discounted rate they'll never want to pay full price later on.

[Jag_Warrior]

If a company gets to sponsor a car(s) at a discounted rate they'll never want to pay full price later on.

But what is "full price"?

Does the current price of a CCWS sponsorship match the value/worth of a CCWS sponsorship... or is it just the cost of running the car?

[cyclepath]

Unless KK & Co. have a list of signed sponsors for '08 (WAH, WAH, WAH!) they'd better do something to retain CDW. They're the only significant company that's invested any cash in CC at all.

Seems like it was the "porn" issue, and the "wondefull" treatment given to them by infamous Mr.G himself!! Thanks!:shakehead

[pchall]

If a company gets to sponsor a car(s) at a discounted rate they'll never want to pay full price later on.

Exactly. Smaller IRL teams have complained about how all the Honda ¥en behind AGR and the low buck Honda affiliated sponsorships on their cars have created a downward pressure on the asking prices for their sponsorships.

[Spicoli]

Seems like it was the "porn" issue, and the "wondefull" treatment given to them by infamous Mr.G himself!! Thanks!:shakehead

does this really surprise anyone here?

[Insomniac]

How do you think the IRL does it...^^^^^

No idea. I'd expect Penske, AGR, TCGR and RLR all have real, full sponsorships. I'm not sure who gets the Tony Bucks, but I'd guess Vision and Foyt at least. With the Indy 500 and their current position, I'd expect the teams that have sponsorship to be getting more than enough to run the car (or cars) it is on.

[Insomniac]

If a company gets to sponsor a car(s) at a discounted rate they'll never want to pay full price later on.

But wouldn't the market set the price? If the ROI in ChampCar goes up, then the current sponsor would have to pay more or be replaced by someone who is willing to pay more for that ROI, right?

[Rogue Leader]

But wouldn't the market set the price? If the ROI in ChampCar goes up, then the current sponsor would have to pay more or be replaced by someone who is willing to pay more for that ROI, right?

Correct, thats why you sign a 1 year or less contract with them, then the next year if you have something to make it worth their while they continue, albet at a higher rate which if someone else is willing to pay it, they will likely think its fair.

The problem: CC is having a REALLY hard time giving anyone any ROI.... :(

[cyclepath]

Correct, thats why you sign a 1 year or less contract with them, then the next year if you have something to make it worth their while they continue, albet at a higher rate which if someone else is willing to pay it, they will likely think its fair.

The problem: CC is having a REALLY hard time giving anyone any ROI.... :(

Well in this case ROI had nothing to do with it. Some of the numbers CDW has made public were that sales had increased (after the race) up to 40% in cities that CC raced in. I believe that it was much higher in Toronto.

[ferrarigod]

can't imagine why they'd stay. ALMS is mucho grande better.

[slashman]

No idea. I'd expect Penske, AGR, TCGR and RLR all have real, full sponsorships. I'm not sure who gets the Tony Bucks, but I'd guess Vision and Foyt at least. With the Indy 500 and their current position, I'd expect the teams that have sponsorship to be getting more than enough to run the car (or cars) it is on.


Honda pays for most of the car and the the team sells a small part..

How do you think AGR has 43 sponsors... because a sponsor comes to them and AGR says you can pay 50000 for the side pods instead of 100000 as Honda will pick up the other half...

[Insomniac]

Honda pays for most of the car and the the team sells a small part..

How do you think AGR has 43 sponsors... because a sponsor comes to them and AGR says you can pay 50000 for the side pods instead of 100000 as Honda will pick up the other half...

I find this hard to believe. It made sense when AGR went to the IRL and while there were other manufacturers. Now, I don't think they're pumping much money (if any) into AGR and ignoring the rest of the field.

[Boatdesigner]

can't imagine why they'd stay. ALMS is mucho grande better.

Why do you think ALMS is better? I would be surprised if they had a larger number of spectators than CCWS. I have a hard time believing they get better TV ratings. Am I missing something, such as better management to deal with? Did I not have my sarcasm censor turned up high enough?:confused:

[Spicoli]

I find this hard to believe. It made sense when AGR went to the IRL and while there were other manufacturers. Now, I don't think they're pumping much money (if any) into AGR and ignoring the rest of the field.

Honda owns AGR. You really think they can afford all that space, all those people, all that o/head?:laugh: You think it was Kim Green's idea to go to ALMS?

sure, they have some paying sponsors, but the vast majority of what goes on there is directed by and funded by Honda.

Drive by there - they just added on again.

[Sean Malone]

Why do you think ALMS is better? I would be surprised if they had a larger number of spectators than CCWS. I have a hard time believing they get better TV ratings. Am I missing something, such as better management to deal with? Did I not have my sarcasm censor turned up high enough?:confused:

I have wondered this myself for some time. There seems to be an attitude that the ALMS is a healthy, viable, ROI series and it very will could be. But, it is very much a niche sport with a loyal, but very small following not unlike Champ Car. The difference is the ALMS (and sports car racing in general) has always been niche. The teams understand this, the drivers understand, this fans understand this etc. Whereas Champ Car is the remnants of a premier internationally known "star maker" series that still lives under that stigma. The attitude is one of elitism when the reality is, of course, much different.

[Indy]

I have wondered this myself for some time. There seems to be an attitude that the ALMS is a healthy, viable, ROI series and it very will could be. But, it is very much a niche sport with a loyal, but very small following not unlike Champ Car. The difference is the ALMS (and sports car racing in general) has always been niche. The teams understand this, the drivers understand, this fans understand this etc. Whereas Champ Car is the remnants of a premier internationally known "star maker" series that still lives under that stigma. The attitude is one of elitism when the reality is, of course, much different.

ALMS may be niche, but they sure as hell are successful at it. I don't know if you have been to one of their races, but the paddock feels an awful lot like the CART paddock of ten years ago. The teams, the series officials, the media relations, the hospitality, it is all very professional and state of the art.

I think that when Champ Car decided to forsake manufacturers, they sealed their fate in this regard. You walk through the ALMS paddock and you think, "remind me again why as a fan I don't want this?"

[extramundane]

I have wondered this myself for some time. There seems to be an attitude that the ALMS is a healthy, viable, ROI series and it very will could be. But, it is very much a niche sport with a loyal, but very small following not unlike Champ Car. The difference is the ALMS (and sports car racing in general) has always been niche. The teams understand this, the drivers understand, this fans understand this etc. Whereas Champ Car is the remnants of a premier internationally known "star maker" series that still lives under that stigma. The attitude is one of elitism when the reality is, of course, much different.

They don't though. ALMS Superfans will tell you with a straight face that CC sucks because it has 17 cars, very few sponsors, patchy attendance and TV ratings of around .5. When you point out that they only have 50% more cars over 4 classes, very few sponsors that aren't directly tied to manufacturers, even patchier attendance and TV ratings of less than .5, they go into vaporlock and start blaming NASCAR.

They just happen to have a stuffed bear instead of a punctuation enthusiast.


ALMS may be niche, but they sure as hell are successful at it. I don't know if you have been to one of their races, but the paddock feels an awful lot like the CART paddock of ten years ago. The teams, the series officials, the media relations, the hospitality, it is all very professional and state of the art.

I think they do a much better job of covering up their shortcomings than either open-wheel series does. The owner of the series doesn't even seem to care anymore. He makes Gerry Forsythe look like the most hands-on guy around right now. I'd compare them to CART circa 2001-2 right now: They've taken some heavy punches and are reeling, but are capable of regrouping and getting things back on track. However, a manufacturer pullout and they're in trouble; two pullouts and they're screwed.

[Sean Malone]

ALMS may be niche, but they sure as hell are successful at it. I don't know if you have been to one of their races, but the paddock feels an awful lot like the CART paddock of ten years ago. The teams, the series officials, the media relations, the hospitality, it is all very professional and state of the art.

I think that when Champ Car decided to forsake manufacturers, they sealed their fate in this regard. You walk through the ALMS paddock and you think, "remind me again why as a fan I don't want this?"

interesting races?

[Spicoli]

interesting races?

and more interesting cars, with real life connections.

Where do I buy a DP01 Cosworth street car? :\

[NismoZ]

Be patient. Might be lookin' at a big tent sale soon, then you can tweak.

[Insomniac]

Honda owns AGR. You really think they can afford all that space, all those people, all that o/head?:laugh: You think it was Kim Green's idea to go to ALMS?

sure, they have some paying sponsors, but the vast majority of what goes on there is directed by and funded by Honda.

Drive by there - they just added on again.

I'll take your word for it. Just seems odd given they have no competition in the IRL to be pumping so much to just one team. I see that tactic being put to good use to get teams to leave CC for the IRL and when they want to get their engines into cars run by the better teams. I can also see them doing that to forge the ALMS relationship, but it just seems like Honda has all the leverage in this situation with AGR.

[Insomniac]

I have wondered this myself for some time. There seems to be an attitude that the ALMS is a healthy, viable, ROI series and it very will could be. But, it is very much a niche sport with a loyal, but very small following not unlike Champ Car. The difference is the ALMS (and sports car racing in general) has always been niche. The teams understand this, the drivers understand, this fans understand this etc. Whereas Champ Car is the remnants of a premier internationally known "star maker" series that still lives under that stigma. The attitude is one of elitism when the reality is, of course, much different.

They may provide a better ROI since, presumably, running a team there is a lot cheaper than running an OW team.

[cameraman]

They may provide a better ROI since, presumably, running a team there is a lot cheaper than running an OW team.I doubt that is true. I'd say Audi, Penske, the Acura teams, the Corvettes and probably a couple of the top GT2 teams spend just as much if not much more than any CCWS team does.

[cameraman]

Well in this case ROI had nothing to do with it. Some of the numbers CDW has made public were that sales had increased (after the race) up to 40% in cities that CC raced in. I believe that it was much higher in Toronto.
So is CDW cutting JW loose? They have quite a bit of investment in him and it seemed to be working well. :shakehead

I find it hard to fathom that KK & GF keep Gentilozi around.

[Spicoli]

I'll take your word for it. Just seems odd given they have no competition in the IRL to be pumping so much to just one team. I see that tactic being put to good use to get teams to leave CC for the IRL and when they want to get their engines into cars run by the better teams. I can also see them doing that to forge the ALMS relationship, but it just seems like Honda has all the leverage in this situation with AGR.

Who knows if its the same, more or less than the "F-CART let's go Earling" days, but they did make AGR their biggie sportscar team, and didn;t they add IPS too? there's alot of "other" money at AGR, but Homoco Yen speaks the loudest for sure over there. I'm not sure anyone on the team besides the partners could say for sure.

What I don;t get is that they spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year to beat - themselves - and they don;t even publicize any of their drivers, accomplishments, wins, etc. The only gomers you really see in commercials in Danicle, maybe some others, but its never for Honda, from what I see.

I would lay a nice paycheck on the fact that anyone in Indy could name the last 5 Indy winners. Maybe 2% of the population? honda hasn;t done much for the "league/series". But then again, neither has Tony.

[Ed_Severson]

I would lay a nice paycheck on the fact that anyone in Indy could name the last 5 Indy winners.

Oooooooohhhhhh ... I know this one! Pick me! Pick me!

I'll go with Villeneuve, Unser Jr., Fittipaldi, Unser Jr., and Mears.

Where's my money?

[GLenz]

Oooooooohhhhhh ... I know this one! Pick me! Pick me!

I'll go with Villeneuve, Unser Jr., Fittipaldi, Unser Jr., and Mears.

Where's my money?
:D Nice :D

[Spicoli]

Oooooooohhhhhh ... I know this one! Pick me! Pick me!

I'll go with Villeneuve, Unser Jr., Fittipaldi, Unser Jr., and Mears.

Where's my money?


:rofl:


No, the last 5 'Mericans.

[Ed_Severson]

:rofl:

No, the last 5 'Mericans.

Whaddya mean? Emmo's from Miami and Jacques is from, er, Oklahoma City. You tryin' to tell me Little Al's from regular Mexico? :tony:

[Insomniac]

I doubt that is true. I'd say Audi, Penske, the Acura teams, the Corvettes and probably a couple of the top GT2 teams spend just as much if not much more than any CCWS team does.

Heh, I'd expect ALMS to be considerably cheaper given the car and the amount of damage they sustain compared to ChampCar.

[nrc]

and more interesting cars, with real life connections.

Where do I buy a DP01 Cosworth street car? :\
That has always been a difference between sports car and open wheel racing.

[Insomniac]

Who knows if its the same, more or less than the "F-CART let's go Earling" days, but they did make AGR their biggie sportscar team, and didn;t they add IPS too? there's alot of "other" money at AGR, but Homoco Yen speaks the loudest for sure over there. I'm not sure anyone on the team besides the partners could say for sure.

What I don;t get is that they spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year to beat - themselves - and they don;t even publicize any of their drivers, accomplishments, wins, etc. The only gomers you really see in commercials in Danicle, maybe some others, but its never for Honda, from what I see.

I would lay a nice paycheck on the fact that anyone in Indy could name the last 5 Indy winners. Maybe 2% of the population? honda hasn;t done much for the "league/series". But then again, neither has Tony.

That is all baffling. I find all the money car companies spend in racing baffling in general. Why does Ferrari spend $400M/yr on racing. They have what, $1B/yr in revenue? I guess they probably get a lot (or all) of that paid through Marlboro plus their winnings. It would be interesting if someone figured out the percentage of cars that are Hondas at the Indy 500 from year to year. Does it even change?

[cyclepath]

So is CDW cutting JW loose? They have quite a bit of investment in him and it seemed to be working well. :shakehead

I find it hard to fathom that KK & GF keep Gentilozi around.

JW contract is with RuSPORT not CDW, so Don't think RuSPORT is cutting him loose. If they did they would have nothing!

[Spicoli]

That has always been a difference between sports car and open wheel racing.

not always. remember when Honda, Chevy, Yoda, M-B, Ford all raced in CART? They used their racing as a marketing mechanism in those days obviously. Lola chassis yes I see your point, but mfr. engines were marketed to Joe Sixpack. And Joe Sixpack liked it and bought tickets, and I assume some cars...

I can't afford (shock to you all) a badd-arss M-B AMG SL, but when they were racing in CART, it sure made me think about looking into lesser models of M-B.

Whoever said earlier in the thread they pretty much screwed the pooch when the mfrs went away was right. I'm just not sure they had an option about it at the time. :\

Our series STILL sucks less than theirs. :thumbup:

[pchall]

T
They just happen to have a stuffed bear instead of a punctuation enthusiast.


:rofl: Do you also get the impression that Murphy the Bear hates Champ Car and wants it to go away since then his series of choice will bloom like an apple orchard in April?

[extramundane]

:rofl: Do you also get the impression that Murphy the Bear hates Champ Car and wants it to go away since then his series of choice will bloom like an apple orchard in April?

Yep, and the same seems to be true for many of Murphy's fans. Just like some of the delusional Place Fans, there's a large contingent of folks* who think that CC's demise means ALMS gets a instant 17-car increase.

*the same folks who complained about the rumors of ALMS at Long Beach, then complained even more when Grand Am "stole" the date, then complained louder yet when ALMS took the slot away, and now are salivating over the thought of HEADLINING Long Beach :shakehead

[stroker]

That is all baffling. I find all the money car companies spend in racing baffling in general. Why does Ferrari spend $400M/yr on racing. They have what, $1B/yr in revenue? I guess they probably get a lot (or all) of that paid through Marlboro plus their winnings. It would be interesting if someone figured out the percentage of cars that are Hondas at the Indy 500 from year to year. Does it even change?

I thought Ferrari was owned by Fiat, and that the Italian government held a majority ownership in Fiat? That's why they can spend so much $--they're subsidized by the government. Renault is the same, I believe. I could be wrong, though, haven't looked at it seriously in years.

[opinionated ow]

I thought Ferrari was owned by Fiat, and that the Italian government held a majority ownership in Fiat? That's why they can spend so much $--they're subsidized by the government. Renault is the same, I believe. I could be wrong, though, haven't looked at it seriously in years.

i'm 98% certain that the french government sold off renault many moons ago. as it is, the funding of renault is somewhat confusing. i believe renault f1 team is a standalone business in the renault group.

[extramundane]

i'm 98% certain that the french government sold off renault many moons ago. as it is, the funding of renault is somewhat confusing. i believe renault f1 team is a standalone business in the renault group.

French gov't still owns ~15% of Renault.

[nrc]

not always.
Always. Even when there was manufacturer involvement that wasn't the attaction of the series as it is in sports car racing. Manufacturers were attracted to the sport by its fans not vice-versa.

American open wheel racing went for decades with little real manufacturer involvement. The notion that that is a major component of the current problem is fallacy.

[Spicoli]

Always. Even when there was manufacturer involvement that wasn't the attaction of the series as it is in sports car racing. Manufacturers were attracted to the sport by its fans not vice-versa.

American open wheel racing went for decades with little real manufacturer involvement. The notion that that is a major component of the current problem is fallacy.


Oh. OK.:shakehead

[Insomniac]

I thought Ferrari was owned by Fiat, and that the Italian government held a majority ownership in Fiat? That's why they can spend so much $--they're subsidized by the government. Renault is the same, I believe. I could be wrong, though, haven't looked at it seriously in years.

I forgot about Fiat. But they are only promoting the Ferrari brand. It was a poor example on my part considering they seem to be selling cars because they are racing instead of racing to sell cars. Toyota would've been a better choice. I wonder what part of their $400M+ budget comes out of Toyota coffers.

[Insomniac]

Always. Even when there was manufacturer involvement that wasn't the attaction of the series as it is in sports car racing. Manufacturers were attracted to the sport by its fans not vice-versa.

American open wheel racing went for decades with little real manufacturer involvement. The notion that that is a major component of the current problem is fallacy.

I think a strong argument could be made that the manufacturers had a lot of power in CART. I feel like when the manufacturers got heavily involved, CART grew. They were the big spenders promoting CART. At some point, they wanted to be in CART and they needed them more than CART needed them. Then it flip-flopped and their bailing shifted the power immediately in OWR.

[Sean Malone]

I could probably find arguments for both nrc and Spicoli but I do remember that during CART's prime years Racer magazine and CART brass were using the turnstile numbers that I believed were compiled by Goodyear for all major series. CART was right there with NASCAR for a little while. Thanks Tony.

Now, were the fans coming to the races to cheer on their favorite engine manufacturer? Human nature probably has something to do with a fans "attachments". If a fan is drawn to a race because a friend brought them and they enjoyed the sights and sounds, then if they have that moment of clarity… “I’m a race fan!” they will take the next logical step and “attach” to various things for various reason i.e. they like red cars, or they think Nelson Phillipe (remember him) is cute, or they love Honda etc.
Too many variables to paint with such broad strokes.

[Spicoli]

I think a strong argument could be made that the manufacturers had a lot of power in CART. I feel like when the manufacturers got heavily involved, CART grew. They were the big spenders promoting CART. At some point, they wanted to be in CART and they needed them more than CART needed them. Then it flip-flopped and their bailing shifted the power immediately in OWR.

Exactly.


Who is promoting CART/CCWS now? hint: no one that matters.

If the paddock is empty now, who used to be there?

[Ray Scar]

That is all baffling. I find all the money car companies spend in racing baffling in general. Why does Ferrari spend $400M/yr on racing. They have what, $1B/yr in revenue? I guess they probably get a lot (or all) of that paid through Marlboro plus their winnings. It would be interesting if someone figured out the percentage of cars that are Hondas at the Indy 500 from year to year. Does it even change?

I wouldn't lump Ferrari with the rest. They have a tradition of building road cars to finance their racing. Racing at the top levels (Le Mans, F1) is part of the cachet and mystique of Ferrari.

It does seem like many manufacturers do spend more than they could ever recoup with "sell on Monday" though.

[Ray Scar]

I could probably find arguments for both nrc and Spicoli but I do remember that during CART's prime years Racer magazine and CART brass were using the turnstile numbers that I believed were compiled by Goodyear for all major series. CART was right there with NASCAR for a little while. Thanks Tony.

Now, were the fans coming to the races to cheer on their favorite engine manufacturer? Human nature probably has something to do with a fans "attachments". If a fan is drawn to a race because a friend brought them and they enjoyed the sights and sounds, then if they have that moment of clarity… “I’m a race fan!” they will take the next logical step and “attach” to various things for various reason i.e. they like red cars, or they think Nelson Phillipe (remember him) is cute, or they love Honda etc.
Too many variables to paint with such broad strokes.

No one that saw Spicoli's Road America "souvenir" will ever forget Nelson Phillipe....

[Sean Malone]

Soapbox,

What was wrong with the CART model? Answer; as Insomniac points out, the engine manufacturers had the power, and in turn CART brass depended on them for marketing. Why have a CART TV commercial when Honda, MB and Toyota had commercials with CART drivers/cars. The problem is that they were never CART commercials, they were promoting the car company. The cars and drivers and the series were vague, ambiguous 'design' aspects.

The B2B model has it's strengths but I think the negatives out weigh the positives. The negatives being that the B2B model leaves the fan and promoting the series to the fan, as an afterthought (or at least it did in CART).

But, at least it was a working model albeit hinged on the involvement of the manufacturers. Champ Car, in my opinion 'backed' into where they are today, struggling in practically all areas of activity. I think the new owners were naive to some extent, "I'll buy Cosworth and we'll lower the chassis costs and we'll have fans and teams coming out of our ears, weeee!!!".

Champ Car needs to figure out who they are, because they are losing their identity with each race that goes by. The IRL is who they used to be, the ALMS has the engine competition and road racing elitism that they need to have and NASCAR continues its vacuum.

The Europe model is a white elephant. As we saw with CART, major US sponsors are not interested in advertisement on a race car in Belgium when their product isn't even sold there and vice versa for any European sponsors that are not interested in the US market.

I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel as long as there is an IRL.

In the end, here are the inevitables; until the “helicopter crash”, TG is here to stay and with him stays his race. Champ Car is left with no premier even to promote to potential fans or the media and it’s hurting them. Americans don’t care if there were 80K in the stands at Belgium, ( hell, I couldn’t even watch the race and I wanted to!),
NASCAR continues to define American autoracing. The propaganda machine now has most convinced that it is more difficult to drive a stock car than any other race machine. Sponsors are not and probably will never be knocking down the door to get on the sidepods of a Champ Car, a series without an identity.

So, in light of all the negatives I propose this; Wipe the slate clean. What’s to lose?
First, do away with the spec BS. Allow any team to run a legal chassis. If some new team wants to get their feet wet and buy ValueBudget chassis for half the cost of PremierGradeA chassis and go three seconds a lap slower, that’s their prerogative. At least you’d see more passing.
Engine; everyone leases a Cozzy. Fine. If by some miracle an engine company wants in, they can run an approved intake of their design if they want and of course badge the engine. All chassis’ would be compatible to the Coz block.

Marketing; get a title sponsor. Period. Number one priority hands down. Sign ‘em up for five years, contract for the exact promotional involvement i.e. commercials, race promotionals, B2B etc. This shows the health of the series and gives incentive to potential team sponsors.

Elevate the Vanderbilt Cup to series identify status. If I’m not mistaken Champ Car is still paying for the rights to use the VC correct? Well, pay em whatever it takes to revolve the series around the V-Cup. Use the name in the title; The Elite Telecom Vanderbilt Cup Champ Car World Series (yes, use world). Educate the fans on the history of the cup and turn that puppy into media darling with pictures of the cup on everything, drivers kissing it when they win the championship etc. Have the announcers pound it down everyone’s throats. It would be the Stanly Cup or Borg Warner but, wait for it…even more. Again, revolve the entire series identity around the Vanderbilt Cup.

Races; Forget “growth”, think “solidify”. Take the historic and strong and kick everything else aside. RA, Portland, LB, LS, Australia, Cleveland, the Canadian races hell, 8 or 9 is enough at first. Promote the hell out of them, keep their dates consistent and give them a promotional purpose of being part of the Vanderbilt Cup Championship. Really push LB as the premier event, you know, for the media.

Fans; simple, work on keeping the fans you have instead of luring event fans. Make sure that you re-educate the media that 35K hardcore, loyal fans at RA is a success, not a failure just because 15 years ago CART got twice that or because NASCAR get 100K per race.

At this point Champ Car needs to take risks (based on lessons learned) in order to survive. The DP01 wasn’t a risk; it was a money saving initiative. Europe isn’t a risk, it’s grasping at straws for survival. Wipe the slate clean, Champ Car and find yourself an identity. Don’t slide into the next year status quo with a few new “iffy races” in China and Europe on the schedule, but “emerge” with an identity…title sponsor, racing for the V-Cup, premier events at America’s best tracks.

Do it.

[G.]

The CART model evolved into relying on manuf's money. They (CCWS) don't know how to do it w/o the $$ anymore.

They need to relearn.

[Insomniac]

The CART model evolved into relying on manuf's money. They (CCWS) don't know how to do it w/o the $$ anymore.

They need to relearn.

Them driving the cost down is a step in that direction in my opinion. The budgets need to be low enough that what a potential sponsor is willing to pay to be on the sidepod covers the costs to race. I just wonder, what is that amount, and can they get the costs down that low?

Didn't OWR start out as a hobby?

[devilmaster]

Soapbox....................

Do it.

preach on brother man. Speak the good word!

hallelujah :thumbup:

[Spicoli]

preach on brother man. Speak the good word!

hallelujah :thumbup:

ditto x 100000.

[extramundane]

Stuff that makes a lot of sense.

Works for me. :thumbup:

[cameraman]

JW contract is with RuSPORT not CDW, so Don't think RuSPORT is cutting him loose. If they did they would have nothing! Ah. Which brings us full circle back to the original post of this thread
RM says it looks like Justin Wilson still has the inside track on Bourdais' seat at N/H/L so if JW is signed to RuSport is Robin just talking out of his ass again?

[Sean Malone]

Ah. Which brings us full circle back to the original post of this thread so if JW is signed to RuSport is Robin just talking out of his ass again?

Guess we'll find out at some point in the future.

[RTKar]

Soapbox,

What was wrong with the CART model? Answer; as Insomniac points out, the engine manufacturers had the power, and in turn CART brass depended on them for marketing. Why have a CART TV commercial when Honda, MB and Toyota had commercials with CART drivers/cars. The problem is that they were never CART commercials, they were promoting the car company. The cars and drivers and the series were vague, ambiguous 'design' aspects.

The B2B model has it's strengths but I think the negatives out weigh the positives. The negatives being that the B2B model leaves the fan and promoting the series to the fan, as an afterthought (or at least it did in CART).

But, at least it was a working model albeit hinged on the involvement of the manufacturers. Champ Car, in my opinion 'backed' into where they are today, struggling in practically all areas of activity. I think the new owners were naive to some extent, "I'll buy Cosworth and we'll lower the chassis costs and we'll have fans and teams coming out of our ears, weeee!!!".

Champ Car needs to figure out who they are, because they are losing their identity with each race that goes by. The IRL is who they used to be, the ALMS has the engine competition and road racing elitism that they need to have and NASCAR continues its vacuum.

The Europe model is a white elephant. As we saw with CART, major US sponsors are not interested in advertisement on a race car in Belgium when their product isn't even sold there and vice versa for any European sponsors that are not interested in the US market.

I don't see any light at the end of the tunnel as long as there is an IRL.

In the end, here are the inevitables; until the “helicopter crash”, TG is here to stay and with him stays his race. Champ Car is left with no premier even to promote to potential fans or the media and it’s hurting them. Americans don’t care if there were 80K in the stands at Belgium, ( hell, I couldn’t even watch the race and I wanted to!),
NASCAR continues to define American autoracing. The propaganda machine now has most convinced that it is more difficult to drive a stock car than any other race machine. Sponsors are not and probably will never be knocking down the door to get on the sidepods of a Champ Car, a series without an identity.

So, in light of all the negatives I propose this; Wipe the slate clean. What’s to lose?
First, do away with the spec BS. Allow any team to run a legal chassis. If some new team wants to get their feet wet and buy ValueBudget chassis for half the cost of PremierGradeA chassis and go three seconds a lap slower, that’s their prerogative. At least you’d see more passing.
Engine; everyone leases a Cozzy. Fine. If by some miracle an engine company wants in, they can run an approved intake of their design if they want and of course badge the engine. All chassis’ would be compatible to the Coz block.

Marketing; get a title sponsor. Period. Number one priority hands down. Sign ‘em up for five years, contract for the exact promotional involvement i.e. commercials, race promotionals, B2B etc. This shows the health of the series and gives incentive to potential team sponsors.

Elevate the Vanderbilt Cup to series identify status. If I’m not mistaken Champ Car is still paying for the rights to use the VC correct? Well, pay em whatever it takes to revolve the series around the V-Cup. Use the name in the title; The Elite Telecom Vanderbilt Cup Champ Car World Series (yes, use world). Educate the fans on the history of the cup and turn that puppy into media darling with pictures of the cup on everything, drivers kissing it when they win the championship etc. Have the announcers pound it down everyone’s throats. It would be the Stanly Cup or Borg Warner but, wait for it…even more. Again, revolve the entire series identity around the Vanderbilt Cup.

Races; Forget “growth”, think “solidify”. Take the historic and strong and kick everything else aside. RA, Portland, LB, LS, Australia, Cleveland, the Canadian races hell, 8 or 9 is enough at first. Promote the hell out of them, keep their dates consistent and give them a promotional purpose of being part of the Vanderbilt Cup Championship. Really push LB as the premier event, you know, for the media.

Fans; simple, work on keeping the fans you have instead of luring event fans. Make sure that you re-educate the media that 35K hardcore, loyal fans at RA is a success, not a failure just because 15 years ago CART got twice that or because NASCAR get 100K per race.

At this point Champ Car needs to take risks (based on lessons learned) in order to survive. The DP01 wasn’t a risk; it was a money saving initiative. Europe isn’t a risk, it’s grasping at straws for survival. Wipe the slate clean, Champ Car and find yourself an identity. Don’t slide into the next year status quo with a few new “iffy races” in China and Europe on the schedule, but “emerge” with an identity…title sponsor, racing for the V-Cup, premier events at America’s best tracks.

Do it.

I said the same thing years ago and was hammered by folks saying that doesn't work anymore...gotta try something new. Like I've mentioned before , why reinvent the wheel? If you only have a five year plan (enough financing for five years), time shouldn't be wasted trying so many new and questionable concepts for a series. Try to stop the leaks and reinvest in what once was a pretty stable model. Do what must be done to keep long time venues. Some things were out of the CART/CC's hands but enough was that the situation that now exists should not have happened.

[cyclepath]

Ah. Which brings us full circle back to the original post of this thread so if JW is signed to RuSport is Robin just talking out of his ass again?

Who knows.. RuSPORT ran only one car, they would of run a second car if they had sponsor $$ will they run with out sponsorship or are they done? if they are done that would free up JW to go anyware he wants.. I would guess.

[Sean Malone]

I said the same thing years ago and was hammered by folks saying that doesn't work anymore...gotta try something new. Like I've mentioned before , why reinvent the wheel? If you only have a five year plan (enough financing for five years), time shouldn't be wasted trying so many new and questionable concepts for a series. Try to stop the leaks and reinvest in what once was a pretty stable model. Do what must be done to keep long time venues. Some things were out of the CART/CC's hands but enough was that the situation that now exists should not have happened.

Has KK and Co ever come out and said "we're in a five year plan"? What happens after five years? What year are we in? I would say four. So after next year if it isn't obvious that things are going to be peachy keen, Tony won?

All I recall hearing from KK is how fans shouldn't be worried about the near future. I guess it's Yurp or bust.

[Spicoli]

Has KK and Co ever come out and said "we're in a five year plan"? What happens after five years? What year are we in? I would say four. So after next year if it isn't obvious that things are going to be peachy keen, Tony won?

All I recall hearing from KK is how fans shouldn't be worried about the near future. I guess it's Yurp or bust.


I read some interesting thread over on punctuation forum from a Mexican local who was going on and on about how BAD Mex City was looking....5 grandstands only for raceday, pizzed off promoter, token mex driber #2, no TV package, still no tickets and zero press....dangy:thumdown:

[Sean Malone]

If I were KK (and I'm not BTW), I would tell Johnson to get me a title sponsor by Jan 1 or it's over.

Would TG even want to buy Cosworth? Probably not with Honda suckling him and his leeg.

Is there no one in CC HQ to help counter the negative press? With all the money KK and GF have, they can't shmooze the f'n press? Gimme a break! Hell, even I can afford to take some Mexican journalists out for a freakin' night on the town and I ain't no millionaire.

Champ Car is a four year old series now, riding CART's coat tails. They're not CART. They were brand new and never acted like it. Never promoted like it.

Hmm, it's starting to feel very natural talking about Champ Car in the past tense.

[nissan gtp]

If I were KK (and I'm not BTW), I would tell Johnson to get me a title sponsor by Jan 1 or it's over.


I'd fire SJ right away.

[extramundane]

Is there no one in CC HQ to help counter the negative press?

Y'see, they don't need anyone in HQ to do that when they've got intarweb forum posters doing such a bang-up job of it already.

Seems to me that not excommunicating the 2 or 3 remaining journalists who still GAF would have been a good strategy. But that might just be me talking all crazy again. :\

[Sean Malone]

Y'see, they don't need anyone in HQ to do that when they've got intarweb forum posters doing such a bang-up job of it already.

Seems to me that not excommunicating the 2 or 3 remaining journalists who still GAF would have been a good strategy. But that might just be me talking all crazy again. :\

Yep. :thumbup:

[Indy]

Seems to me that not excommunicating the 2 or 3 remaining journalists who still GAF would have been a good strategy. But that might just be me talking all crazy again. :\

Blasphemy!!!

[Insomniac]

Has KK and Co ever come out and said "we're in a five year plan"?

I remember mention of a 5-year plan after they got the CART assets in bankruptcy. It doesn't mean much right now since plans usually do change and they aren't some legal document that they can be held to.

IMO, they're trying. They don't seem to be doing a bang up job of it, but they are trying. I just hope they're learning.

[Spicoli]

There is rumored to be a foto of the R-Spurts car with a Club Hustler logo on it. Got CDW folks in a big stir.

Anybody done seen it?

please post.

[Jag_Warrior]

Didn't OWR start out as a hobby?

I'm not sure how it started out, but I'm not getting the warm & fuzzies on how it's going to end up. :shakehead

But who knows... maybe watching various runners do their best in the SCCA DP-01 class won't be so bad.

[Spicoli]

There is rumored to be a foto of the R-Spurts car with a Club Hustler logo on it. Got CDW folks in a big stir.

Anybody done seen it?

please post.

bumpity bump bump.

anyone? :confused:

[Indy]

bumpity bump bump.

anyone? :confused:

Someone brought it after you flaked out last night. It was awesome. The whole bar was laughing their asses off about it.

[Spicoli]

Someone brought it after you flaked out last night. It was awesome. The whole bar was laughing their asses off about it.


:rofl:

[NismoZ]

Which is exactly what the virgins at CDW ought to do ...after CC forces Loser to sell his stake to Petit and the CD-geeks buy 4 leftover C-Wagons with Mindy decals to enter the NASCAB Feeder Series. Personally I think the #8 car should have a big Bronte decal up front where those lucious aero bumps are. Let GF call all the shots, he's made a bunch of great moves lately.:shakehead

[NismoZ]

Sorry.

[Spicoli]

Sorry.

funny as hell though.:D


Does anyone know if marxie has the fotos? :saywhat: :heardarumor:

[Indy]

CCWSabotage...
http://img520.imageshack.us/img520/2695/sabotagemc1.jpg