I think it might be finally over [Archive]

opinionated ow

10-03-07, 11:27 AM

If we look at the components of the series (and the news surrounding them this year), it doesn't bode well.
-Tag liani gone (http://torontosun.com/Sports/OtherSports/2007/10/03/4545752-sun.html)
-Newman/Haas/Lanigan Gone according to Smack
-Conquest replacing both their drivers...
-Dalziel dropped
-Mexicans struggling to sell tickets
-Season Finale Cancelled (Phoenix)
-Vegas appearing to be on the ropes
-Houston not too popular in the local area
-CDW Gone
-RSports flop broken into two crap small teams
-Justin Wilson likely on his way out
-Bourdais heading to F1
-Drying up of promotions for Aus race (heard/seen nothing for 10 days or more)
-Subzero TV Ratings
-No 2008 schedule and 2007 schedule failure
-Visa...cough cough
-Hustler...cough cough
-No Ovals
-Standing Starts
-Timed races
-Grands Prix without grand prizes
-idiots in management, and it pains me to say this (cause when i met him, i genuinely liked him)..pg making the whole facade difficult.
-robin and gordon booted from champ car events with press rights removed

It really doesn't bode well for 2008. Pisses me off too, this season promised much (in spite of the hideous car) and has delivered nothing.

then couple that with outside factors:
-1.2M to run earl
-Villeneuve, Hornish, Montoya all to cup
-Honda ¥ not drying up

i am genuinely concerned.

Sean Malone

10-03-07, 11:35 AM

I guess the only optimistic elements to hold on to are the positive comments of commitment from KK.

Hell, the A1GP is surviving in front of empty stands. At least KK owns the engines.

Graham needs to win a bunch of races in '08. Is "AJ 'NASCAR Superstar' Allmendinger still floundering in NASCAR? Maybe they can buy him back. Oh, that's right, CC doesn't pay their drivers.

opinionated ow

10-03-07, 11:38 AM

Hell, the A1GP is surviving in front of empty stands. At least KK owns the engines.

that is an argument that you would be wrong in. zandvoort packed to the rafters again. eastern creek last year has more than 50K, a pretty rare achievement for EC, Taupo was chockers, Shanghai and Beijing were chockers, Durban was choclers. probably 80% of the races were well attended.

but anyway...

Andrew Longman

10-03-07, 11:42 AM

I think you should be concerned, but not necessarily for all the reasons you list. Some are just rumors at the moment, some are just inevitable (e.g., drivers going to NASCAR), and some I either don't agree with or don't think are that important.

NHL moving to the IRL would pretty much seal it though. Car count in the IRL becomes a bit more respectable and it drops to unworkable in CC .Bring Walker over and maybe Forsythe too and the transition is complete; IRL = CART circa 1995 except its a ugly pig spec chassis, with too much mandated downforce, low tech non turbo engine, no ratings, TG is in charge., and the I500 winner will routinely leave for NASCAR.

Lovely

robot9000

10-03-07, 11:46 AM

You lump a lot of stuff together in there. My comments in BOLD

If we look at the components of the series (and the news surrounding them this year), it doesn't bode well.
-Tag liani gone (http://torontosun.com/Sports/OtherSports/2007/10/03/4545752-sun.html)
-Newman/Haas/Lanigan Gone according to Smack
-Conquest replacing both their drivers...With other drivers. Happens.
-Dalziel dropped Sucks for Dalziel and the hardcore, but outside that...how knows him?
-Mexicans struggling to sell tickets
-Season Finale Cancelled (Phoenix)
-Vegas appearing to be on the ropes
-Houston not too popular in the local area I would like to hear more about this. I heard it was generally well accepted.
-CDW Gone
-RSports flop broken into two crap small teams Um, they were just UnFlopped.
-Justin Wilson likely on his way out See: CDW Gone
-Bourdais heading to F1 This is a good thing. Shows the series,,,,,produces,,,great,,,,,drivers :)
-Drying up of promotions for Aus race (heard/seen nothing for 10 days or more)
-Subzero TV Ratings Welcome to 2001
-No 2008 schedule and 2007 schedule failure They (Latter day CART, CC) never got their scedules out before end of fall. Sad, but not the last coffin nail IMO
-Visa...cough cough
-Hustler...cough cough
-No Ovals
-Standing Starts I was a sceptic, but was won over. I don't want them at every event, but they turned out better than I thought.
-Timed races Better than chopping them at the end to meet their TV window.
-Grands Prix without grand prizes This bothers you how? News Flash, CART was never all that great at the prize money thing. No news here.
-idiots in management, and it pains me to say this (cause when i met him, i genuinely liked him)..pg making the whole facade difficult. Welcome to 1996
-robin and gordon booted from champ car events with press rights removed They weren't booted. But I agree, it was petty and not how Big League players should act.

It really doesn't bode well for 2008. Pisses me off too, this season promised much (in spite of the hideous car) and has delivered nothing.

Hideous car? So you and Retardcar Bruce are the only two that think so.

then couple that with outside factors:
-1.2M to run earl Not sure how this will play. May be a non-issue for CC teams, might be enought to bail. Question - how long will Tony keep this up and what is the Tony Tax cut of this $$$. Might not be all that swell once you crunch the numbers.
-Villeneuve, Hornish, Montoya all to cup Non issue. Nobody cares where they came from. Kenny Wallace will still be more popular.
-Honda ¥ not drying up So far. Lets see what they think in a season or two while Toyota gets all the attention for their teams in NASCAR.

i am genuinely concerned.

Me Too

opinionated ow

10-03-07, 12:00 PM

You lump a lot of stuff together in there. My comments in BOLD

Me Too

-i read plenty of articles of locals making serious complaints about houston noise
-rsports was a flop now and before, its just two small flop teams of one car
-bourdais is the only champ car driver to make it somewhere other than retirement in recent years. jpm, jv, shj all boes well for the irl as a training ground-jv won the 500 and that automaticlaly makes him an earl driver:rolleyes:
-cart might not have given grand prizes, but they didn't take to calling everything a grand bloody prix. the only way champ car was going to make it was to put up 750K-1M to the race winner.
-i still believe that the dp01 is the ssecond ugliest openwheel car in history behind the crapwagon. that won't change
-honda will make a pretty buck out of two things: acura-alms/honda-irl weekends and the month of may, all the cars are powered by honda. equals big exposure.

Andrew Longman

10-03-07, 12:03 PM

Kenny Wallace will still be more popular :rofl:

Good summary Robot.

FTG

10-03-07, 12:15 PM

Nelson mania will cure everything that ails you.

Nelson Philippe, the popular French driver who was the youngest driver to ever start and win a Champ Car World Series race, will return to his former team, Conquest Racing. Philippe will defend his title this month at Surfers Paradise, Australia in the blue and white livery of Australian based Juniper Property Development Group. Additionally, the 21-year-old Philippe will compete in the Champ Car season finale in Mexico City in November.

Sean Malone

10-03-07, 12:42 PM

that is an argument that you would be wrong in. zandvoort packed to the rafters again. eastern creek last year has more than 50K, a pretty rare achievement for EC, Taupo was chockers, Shanghai and Beijing were chockers, Durban was choclers. probably 80% of the races were well attended.

but anyway...

I'll take your word for it as I don't know the first thing about A1GP, but the few pics I've seen are in front of empty stands.

Sean Malone

10-03-07, 12:43 PM

TrueBrit

10-03-07, 12:46 PM

If it truly is over then it can never be said enough FTG :mad:

I just got the feeling at RA this year that CC was in it's final death throes...Just a feeling I got...I remember many good races at Long Beach, back when it was a series that rivalled F-1 for competition and exciting racing..and to see it in it's latest iteration was just sad...Crappy field, drivers i had neither heard of, couldn't recognize or just plain didn't care about, spec cars and almost bugger all in sponsorship...

What a shame.

Chief

10-03-07, 12:59 PM

It really doesn't bode well for 2008. Pisses me off too, this season promised much (in spite of the hideous car) and has delivered nothing.
Me thinks you are rooting for a failure. Pure skullduggery on your part.

Methanolandbrats

10-03-07, 01:39 PM

NHL moving to the IRL would pretty much seal it though. Car count in the IRL becomes a bit more respectable and it drops to unworkable in CC .Bring Walker over and maybe Forsythe too and the transition is complete; IRL = CART circa 1995 except its a ugly pig spec chassis, with too much mandated downforce, low tech non turbo engine, no ratings, TG is in charge., and the I500 winner will routinely leave for NASCAR.

Lovely I will take up quilting rather than follow that.

stroker

10-03-07, 03:08 PM

DOOMED, DOOMED WE ARE!!!!! :eek: :eek:

or not.

Somebody bookmark this thread.

Sean Malone

10-03-07, 03:10 PM

DOOMED, DOOMED WE ARE!!!!! :eek: :eek:

or not.

Somebody bookmark this thread.

Why? You'd have to bookmark 200 others just like it from '99 'til now.

Andrew Longman

10-03-07, 03:12 PM

I will take up quilting rather than follow that.

Trevor and I have been saying we should be spending more time working on the train layout. Winter is coming.

Charles Bronson

10-03-07, 03:46 PM

If it truly is over then it can never be said enough FTG :mad:

I hear ya.

Forever Tristan Gommendy!!!

Sean Malone

10-03-07, 03:49 PM

I hear ya.

Forever Tristan Gommendy!!!

:rofl:

Elmo T

10-03-07, 03:51 PM

Trevor and I have been saying we should be spending more time working on the train layout. Winter is coming.

Off topic - We took the kids to Northlandz last month. :saywhat: Cool, but it has seen better days. Planning on heading to Strasburg and the PA RR Museum this weekend. :thumbup:

On Topic - I feel like I've already gone through all of the stages of mourning over the demise of CART/OWRS/CCWS. If it happens, so be it. I don't want to see it happen, but I won't be shedding any tears. And it hasn't helped that Comcast here doesn't carry "The Ocho" and I've missed that last couple races. :rolleyes:

Warlock!

10-03-07, 04:35 PM

Why? You'd have to bookmark 200 others just like it from '99 'til now.A while ago, most of the "D&G" threads here at OC were just knocking champcar for stoopid decision-making. The way I see it, only in the last few weeks have the threads turned to a feeling of impending demise. It seems a lot of the long-time fans are losing interest, while the fans CART gained since the split are a big percentage of the "keepers of the faith".

That doesn't bode well...

Sean Malone

10-03-07, 04:39 PM

A while ago, most of the "D&G" threads here at OC were just knocking champcar for stoopid decision-making. The way I see it, only in the last few weeks have the threads turned to a feeling of impending demise. It seems a lot of the long-time fans are losing interest, while the fans CART gained since the split are a big percentage of the "keepers of the faith".

That doesn't bode well...

Couldn't agree more. Well said. :thumbup:

Personally, I think it will be interesting to see if the giant vacuum that is NASCAR succeeds within the next 5/10 years, in encompassing some of what US racing i.e. CART/IndyCar used to be. International drivers, road racing predominance, modernized technology. Hell, if they mimicked Super V8 they might give F1 a race.

Wheel-Nut

10-03-07, 04:41 PM

Off Topic - Heading to Austin next Friday to do the Day Out with Thomas deal with the kids.
http://www.austinsteamtrain.org/

On topic - Houston not too popular in the local area

Where'd you get this??

extramundane

10-03-07, 04:42 PM

I hear ya.

Forever Tristan Gommendy!!!

Bah. He's no Patrick Lemarie.

10-03-07, 05:05 PM

Off topic - We took the kids to Northlandz last month. :saywhat: Cool, but it has seen better days. Planning on heading to Strasburg and the PA RR Museum this weekend. :thumbup:
A whole bunch of years ago, when there was just the oldest g., we were there. At the little train shop, there's a big mockup of Percy (from the Thomas the Tank Engine series) in the window. Little g. was 3, I think. He saw Percy, but he wasn't too good with the "er" sound. Sounded more like the soft "u".

Excited little boy yelling "P*ssy, P*ssy, P*ssy!" at the top of his lungs, with a crowd of people nearby.:rofl:

I did what any dad would do. I joined him.

(the Thomas train calls the Illinois railway Museum home in the offseason. Right down the road. There may be more than one, though.)

cameraman

10-03-07, 05:52 PM

Off Topic - Heading to Austin next Friday to do the Day Out with Thomas deal with the kids.

Been there, done that. Hate to burst the bubble but Thomas is a gussied up box car and if you look to the other end of the train well, let's just say it helps to keep the kiddos away from the other end of the train...

emjaya

10-03-07, 05:56 PM

I will take up quilting rather than follow that.

Are you interested in quilting? :\

I,,,,,,,,,,have,,,,,,,,,faith,,,,,,,,in,,,,,,,KK,, ,,,,and,,,,,his,,,,vision,,,for,,the,future.

And there is always F1.:gomer:

Wheel-Nut

10-03-07, 05:58 PM

Been there, done that. Hate to burst the bubble but Thomas is a gussied up box car and if you look to the other end of the train well, let's just say it helps to keep the kiddos away from the other end of the train...

Thomas is the real deal, not a ride buyer!! :D

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/events/e-pic/dowt/tho_per_jamesyh.jpg

10-03-07, 06:05 PM

Been there, done that. Hate to burst the bubble but Thomas is a gussied up box car and if you look to the other end of the train well, let's just say it helps to keep the kiddos away from the other end of the train...Ha HA! You get the Thomas the Crapwagon version!!

I get the real deal, yo.

On-board starter
http://rebelpixel.com/photos/ipap-photos/lighter.2002_0129_013251.jpg

Traction control

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/diesel-locomotive-sand.jpg

Paddle shifters

http://www1.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/2949552/2/istockphoto_2949552_inside_the_engine_car.jpg

Carbon fiber, well, carbon anyway

http://www.astecindustries.com/images/photos/Coal_Hands.jpg

Methanolandbrats

10-03-07, 06:07 PM

Are you interested in quilting? :\

I,,,,,,,,,,have,,,,,,,,,faith,,,,,,,,in,,,,,,,KK,, ,,,,and,,,,,his,,,,vision,,,for,,the,future.

And there is always F1.:gomer: No I'm not interested in quilting....yet. I have faith that Max will totally **** up F1 by 2010.

cameraman

10-03-07, 06:36 PM

Thomas is the real deal, not a ride buyer!! :D

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/events/e-pic/dowt/tho_per_jamesyh.jpg

That is the British version, they do things right.

Wheel-Nut

10-03-07, 06:47 PM

Actually I do believe the American version is a capable working teapot. I know at the Austin event they use a "helper" engine, usually an old Alco R- something on the rear of the train.

cameraman

10-03-07, 06:52 PM

I guess the Strasburg RR built a real one. It doesn't make it out to Utah.:cry:

Elmo T

10-03-07, 07:50 PM

I guess the Strasburg RR built a real one. It doesn't make it out to Utah.:cry:

Further OT - They did and I think it does make some road trips. There is also a crapwagon version that is a show piece that actually comes in to the local short line via tractor-trailer.

PA RR Museum has a sweet GG1. :thumbup:

http://piercehaviland.com/rail/railimages/gg14935.jpg

Andrew Longman

10-03-07, 08:03 PM

Off topic - We took the kids to Northlandz last month. :saywhat: Cool, but it has seen better days. Planning on heading to Strasburg and the PA RR Museum this weekend. :thumbup:

Northlandz always impressed me for sheer audacity of trying to make money with such an outragous display. Size=over the top. Craftmanship and attention to detail=not so much. And yet it is looking a little worn when I was last there about a year ago.

A friend of mine is a member here: http://www.gardenstatecentral.com/

They have an open house this month and he highly recommends it. Perhaps you want to check it out. Or I'll give you a report. :)

Enjoy Strasburg. I went there first as a 5 year old and have enjoyed it every visit since.

Andrew Longman

10-03-07, 08:14 PM

PA RR Museum has a sweet GG1. :thumbup:

If you've ever seen the GG1 on display at the NPS museum in Altoona this is an interesting story about how it got there. A recently retired NJ Transit dispatcher bought it :

As a young girl, Vibbert would often spend afternoons watching the trains pass through the station in Rahway.

She began a love affair with one particular locomotive in 1964 when a nasty storm forced the Beatles to take a train from New York to Washington. It was the Fab Four's first tour through the U.S. and Vibbert raced to the Rahway platform to watch her teen idols whiz by.

Several months later, Vibbert was on her way to see the Beatles perform in Queens when she noticed that the same No. 4913 locomotive was at the head of her train. Vibbert tracked the locomotive until its retirement, and in 1980 purchased it from Amtrak for $5,000.

The 235-ton engine now sits in a rail museum in Altoona, Pa.

http://www.nj.com/jjournal/stories/index.ssf?/base/news-1/1189059500181320.xml&coll=3

emjaya

10-03-07, 08:17 PM

No I'm not interested in quilting....yet. I have faith that Max will totally **** up F1 by 2010.

OK, then. :eek: Errr, Moto-GP.... :gomer:

Steam.:thumbup:

Methanolandbrats

10-03-07, 08:34 PM

OK, then. :eek: Errr, Moto-GP.... :gomer:

Moto GP :thumbup: Pretty hard to screw that up. Of course, somewhere there is probably a moron thinking about adding push to crash, alternate tires, ballast or some crap to the bikes.

TrueBrit

10-03-07, 08:40 PM

Thomas is the real deal, not a ride buyer!! :D

http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/events/e-pic/dowt/tho_per_jamesyh.jpg

Hey! That's the Bluebell Railway in Sussex....I make sure to take in a visit there everytime I go home!

Well worth a visit if you're ever across the pond:thumbup:

Insomniac

10-03-07, 11:20 PM

Personally, I think it will be interesting to see if the giant vacuum that is NASCAR succeeds within the next 5/10 years, in encompassing some of what US racing i.e. CART/IndyCar used to be. International drivers, road racing predominance, modernized technology. Hell, if they mimicked Super V8 they might give F1 a race.

Wouldn't NASCAR be teetering on driving away their core fans in a quest to gain new ones if they go down that path?

Spicoli

10-04-07, 12:53 AM

Cam would not approve of this thread. :)

Sean Malone

10-04-07, 08:14 AM

Wouldn't NASCAR be teetering on driving away their core fans in a quest to gain new ones if they go down that path?

Aren't they already with Toyota, JPM, Frankitty etc? The NASCAR demographic in 95' was quite different than 2005 as NASCAR went 'mainstream' and I expect it will be even more changed in 2010.

Andrew Longman

10-04-07, 08:38 AM

Wouldn't NASCAR be teetering on driving away their core fans in a quest to gain new ones if they go down that path?

Interesting question.

Back in the 80s (and even before ) a contingent of "core" Indycar fans felt Indycars should race on ovals, by American drivers, perhaps even with the engine in the front.

But until Indycars started going road racing the big crowds didn't show up outside of Indy. The diversity of venues and arguably the very fact that it included drivers from outside the US brought in a wider range of racefans (and teams and manufacturers). In the 90s CART was far bigger than any other series had been or will be (outside of present day NASCAR)

Meanwhile, the placefans got and are still grumpy by any perceived dis to their event.

Now if every NASCAR race wasn't run on the same cookie cutter track and devolve into a dronefest between wrecks would more people watch it? I know I would. The only Nascar races I make sure to watch are the two road courses each in Cup and Busch. So yes, something more like Aussie SuperV8 would add appeal, but also sacrifice the fans built off the local Saturday night late-model or modifieds events.

But what else are they going to watch? There is no TG equivilant to given them an alternative.

Methanolandbrats

10-04-07, 08:39 AM

Aren't they already with Toyota, JPM, Frankitty etc? The NASCAR demographic in 95' was quite different than 2005 as NASCAR went 'mainstream' and I expect it will be even more changed in 2010. It peaked over 10 years ago. That's when the cars began turning into crap, traditional tracks began to be abandoned, ticket prices went up and empty seats began to appear. Remains to be seen who the COT and all them damn furriners will appeal too. It sure won't appeal to a traditional Cab fan who used to spend a LOT of money so his entire family could attend a "local" race.

Insomniac

10-04-07, 09:02 AM

Insomniac

10-04-07, 09:09 AM

Interesting question.

Back in the 80s (and even before ) a contingent of "core" Indycar fans felt Indycars should race on ovals, by American drivers, perhaps even with the engine in the front.

But until Indycars started going road racing the big crowds didn't show up outside of Indy. The diversity of venues and arguably the very fact that it included drivers from outside the US brought in a wider range of racefans (and teams and manufacturers). In the 90s CART was far bigger than any other series had been or will be (outside of present day NASCAR)

Meanwhile, the placefans got and are still grumpy by any perceived dis to their event.

Now if every NASCAR race wasn't run on the same cookie cutter track and devolve into a dronefest between wrecks would more people watch it? I know I would. The only Nascar races I make sure to watch are the two road courses each in Cup and Busch. So yes, something more like Aussie SuperV8 would add appeal, but also sacrifice the fans built off the local Saturday night late-model or modifieds events.

But what else are they going to watch? There is no TG equivilant to given them an alternative.

I don't think I'd watch. I'm not a fan of pack racing. I really only like OWR. More the technology part than the racing per se. That is, I don't really consider myself a racing fan. Some (or many, I don't really know) people like all types of racing, but the only time I watch SPEED is for F1. The technology in the IRL looks and sounds like crap, which is probably the biggest impediment to me even tuning in a little.

I couldn't even be enticed to watch NASCAR after I moved to WV and people I knew were Ernie Something fans, some other guy was plastered everywhere in Mellow Yellow ads and Days of Thunder came out.

Sean Malone

10-04-07, 09:13 AM

They very well may be. Aren't all their measurables down some?

I try to stay away from all things NASCAR but as we all know that's practically impossible when you follow other motor-racing, but I have heard there are empty seats at tsome of the 'old classic' tracks which would lead one to believe that some of the old school fans are getting fed up. Or maybe they're just getting old and apathetic. The attendance #'s are still staggering especially in new markets and I only see NASCAR going more 'international'. At least Canada and Mexico. Sponsors are tripping all over themselves to get the Hispanic dollars now that the #'s are out and they are the top spending minority in America and growing fast. In retrospect, Champ Car will probably see that they really dropped the ball in that area.

Andrew Longman

10-04-07, 09:48 AM

I couldn't even be enticed to watch NASCAR after I moved to WV and people I knew were Ernie Something fans, some other guy was plastered everywhere in Mellow Yellow ads and Days of Thunder came out.

Swervin' Ernie Irvin and Kyle Petty.

You really do keep away from NASCAR. :)

I too am attracted to the technology side of the sport. I also like the competition on the business side of the sport and I'm thrilled to see drivers control the car at unthinkable speed and Gs.

Together that means NASCAR doesn't offer me much. Sadly, NA OW offers less and less of it now as well.

Insomniac

10-04-07, 12:52 PM

I try to stay away from all things NASCAR but as we all know that's practically impossible when you follow other motor-racing, but I have heard there are empty seats at tsome of the 'old classic' tracks which would lead one to believe that some of the old school fans are getting fed up. Or maybe they're just getting old and apathetic. The attendance #'s are still staggering especially in new markets and I only see NASCAR going more 'international'. At least Canada and Mexico. Sponsors are tripping all over themselves to get the Hispanic dollars now that the #'s are out and they are the top spending minority in America and growing fast. In retrospect, Champ Car will probably see that they really dropped the ball in that area.

It seems like ChampCar makes a splash at first and then the numbers keep dropping and the event is replaced. To me, that says they aren't hooking many people. I can only assume it's because of all the scatter-brained changes. Event dates, events themselves, drivers, television coverage. People need to be able to find it and follow it after the circus leaves town. It is absolutely killing ChampCar. Quite simply, there should never be more than 1 weekend off and from beginning to end of the season there should be no more than 1 weekend off every 4 races. Who is going to keep checking for a race when they are 6 weeks apart?

Insomniac

10-04-07, 12:56 PM

Swervin' Ernie Irvin and Kyle Petty.

You really do keep away from NASCAR. :)

I too am attracted to the technology side of the sport. I also like the competition on the business side of the sport and I'm thrilled to see drivers control the car at unthinkable speed and Gs.

Together that means NASCAR doesn't offer me much. Sadly, NA OW offers less and less of it now as well.

Somehow I did. I think partly because I was never much of a TV watcher when there was light outside. I only knew one person who watched CART (I didn't really watch it religiously, but if I was in the house Sunday afternoons I'd definitely stop on CART races when channel surfing). Now, I don't ever channel surf. The TV is on and tuned to something for a reason.