MILLER: Big Hit Or Little Bump?

[Sean Malone]

Millers latest breaks down the numbers regarding TG’s handout dealio. A few interesting things to note that I hadn’t seen mention of before;

Stoddard rumored to be buying Dallaras for Indy one off? “I know until we have a united series that maybe it’s hard to keep people interested, and our TV ratings are suffering, but the bang for the buck you get in Champ Car is unprecedented in terms of coverage for a sponsor for what they have to pay.”

Bachelart interested in a one off if May is open? “Running Indy is our best chance to find a sponsor.”

Coyne says the IRL payout isn’t enough to warrant jumping ship. “The IRL has always paid good prize money, so I don’t know that this new deal is hugely different,” said Coyne, referring to the fact the IRL is doing away with regular race purses except for Indy. “It might be a little more even distribution to help the smaller teams, and I think the IRL is making good PR hay out of it but, for me, it doesn’t tip the scale at all. It’s more expensive to run in the IRL and a team like ours has no chance to run up front.”

On one hand I think it's cool that underdog Coyne can be competitive in Champ Car, on the other hand, what does that say about the competition level as a whole?

link (http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/40740/)

[Methanolandbrats]

One thing is says is Coyne is a hell of lot smarter than Sammich.

[Andrew Longman]

...on the other hand, what does that say about the competition level as a whole? [/URL]

It says that those teams at the front in the IRL, who were getting a lot of help from Honda and Toyota a few years back, have developed the Dallaras quite a bit and the guys at the back haven't.

In CC, there is not a lot teams can do legally to develop the car so any newcomer has about the same chance as a regular.

Interesting article. About what I figured on the IRL payout deal. Interesting the 500 purse has been raised. Wasn't that another thing owners complained about circa 1979? But he still hasn't raised it enough to make it practical.

[Indy]

With all respect to DC and Bachelart, my first thought when I read that was, if that is the way you think, maybe you belong in a feeder series.

What they mean by "being competitive" is quite the opposite of tough competition. What they are saying is Champ Car is more of a lottery, where really bad teams can show well in the races despite being far less able.

I think that if there is any fire behind the N-H-L smoke, we will learn that THIS is the reason they are disgusted with CCWS.

[Sean Malone]

It says that those teams at the front in the IRL, who were getting a lot of help from Honda and Toyota a few years back, have developed the Dallaras quite a bit and the guys at the back haven't.

In CC, there is not a lot teams can do legally to develop the car so any newcomer has about the same chance as a regular.

Just playing devils advocate; so you're saying that the IRL has a more open development book in terms of chassis refinement? I thought it was the other way around. So N/H/L is getting 'special' motors?
Regardless, it's a matter of perception; if a little guy can do good consistently, doesn't that make them all 'little guys'?

[Sean Malone]

With all respect to DC and Bachelart, my first thought when I read that was, if that is the way you think, maybe you belong in a feeder series.

What they mean by "being competitive" is quite the opposite of tough competition. What they are saying is Champ Car is more of a lottery, where really bad teams can show well in the races despite being far less able.

I think that if there is any fire behind the N-H-L smoke, we will learn that THIS is the reason they are disgusted with CCWS.

Good point.

[opinionated ow]

Interesting article. About what I figured on the IRL payout deal. Interesting the 500 purse has been raised. Wasn't that another thing owners complained about circa 1979? But he still hasn't raised it enough to make it practical.

if they put 10M for the winner of the 500, cars would come out of the woodwork and lots of entry fees would be paid, bigger name drivers would take part (many would probably foresake charlotte) and the media coverage would be huge...

[Methanolandbrats]

I think we've been through this before.........teams looking for greener pastures.........looks like this 10 year battle will be solved this winter.

[Sean Malone]

I think we've been through this before.........teams looking for greener pastures.........looks like this 10 year battle will be solved this winter.

I don't know...based solely on Millers article one would surmise that the CC teams are perfectly happy in Champ Car and Tony's payout isn't enough BUT, it sure would be nice to one off the 500 because sponsors like it. So really...same old, same old.

[Wheel-Nut]

On one hand I think it's cool that underdog Coyne can be competitive in Champ Car, on the other hand, what does that say about the competition level as a whole?

I read Coyne's comments as meaning he doesn't have the money or resources to spend the needed time in a wind tunnel to be competative in the IRL.

[Spicoli]

:club racing:

[emjaya]

:club racing:

Good racing in club level. Just saying....

[Andrew Longman]

Just playing devils advocate; so you're saying that the IRL has a more open development book in terms of chassis refinement? I thought it was the other way around. So N/H/L is getting 'special' motors?
Regardless, it's a matter of perception; if a little guy can do good consistently, doesn't that make them all 'little guys'?

I understand there is little you can legally do to a DP01. You gotta run the stock parts and pick from the same choice of shocks, springs, gears etc. If you run up front its because you do a better job at reading the data, collecting driver feedback and making set up choices. And your race strategy matters.

The reason everyone is now running Dallaras in the IRL is because a few years back Honda told their teams to use that chassis and then worked with AGR (esp Herta) to optimize the car. Since then Penske has used his windtunnel to do the same. I imagine that Honda data have now trickled down to all/most teams, but AGR had a huge head start and can afford to act on the data.

[Andrew Longman]

I read Coyne's comments as meaning he doesn't have the money or resources to spend the needed time in a wind tunnel to be competative in the IRL.

Right. Even with the $1.2M and whatever sponsors he could presumably get and prize money by running the 500.

[Sean Malone]

So let me get this straight, IRL = windtunnel technology that big money teams can use to go fast. Champ Car = go karts.

Got it. :gomer:

[Spicoli]

Good racing in club level. Just saying....

no disagreement. when they race, the racing is usually pretty good.

[JLMannin]

Wow, the irony. TG is offering 1.2 million to any team owner that runs a car in all the IRL races. I guess that maybe he just caught on the the annual drop in car counts post-indy. By providing an incentive to run the whole series and not just the 500, Tony is saying that the series is important.

That is quite ironic, as one of the problems TG had with CART was that the PPG Cup was nearly as important on the motorsports landscape as winninh the 500. One of the principals behind the formation of the IRL was that the 500 ruled over all and must be far more impartant than any series it happens to be a part of.

On a related note - what does one exactly need to do to get the 1.2 million - does the car actually have to participate in each race, or can an owner just buy a roller and pay the entry fee for each event but never actually have a team?

[Andrew Longman]

On a related note - what does one exactly need to do to get the 1.2 million - does the car actually have to participate in each race, or can an owner just buy a roller and pay the entry fee for each event but never actually have a team?

In NASCAR, you do actually have to have a team. Bodies that is. I don't know about spare tires and a full allotment of fuel. Its not an uncommon practice for the 40-43rd qualifiers to run a lap or two, hit the garage with "handling problems" and pick up their check on the way out. Happens less lately now that Toyota is boosting Cup car counts and Cup teams are boosting car counts in Busch. A lot more cars going home than before.

[eiregosod]

Are the Honda subsidies coming to an end in the EARL?

[extramundane]

That is quite ironic, as one of the problems TG had with CART was that the PPG Cup was nearly as important on the motorsports landscape as winninh the 500. One of the principals behind the formation of the IRL was that the 500 ruled over all and must be far more impartant than any series it happens to be a part of.


Hardly surprising though- he's already implemented most everything else that was "bad" about CART.

Except, of course, the national and international success of the series. But hey, you can't have everything, right?

[STD]

Good racing in club level. Just saying....

They have a schedule that holds as posted as well. :thumbup:

[Insomniac]

With all respect to DC and Bachelart, my first thought when I read that was, if that is the way you think, maybe you belong in a feeder series.

What they mean by "being competitive" is quite the opposite of tough competition. What they are saying is Champ Car is more of a lottery, where really bad teams can show well in the races despite being far less able.

I think that if there is any fire behind the N-H-L smoke, we will learn that THIS is the reason they are disgusted with CCWS.

ChampCar is trying to even out the budgets so that teams that can't get as much (or any) sponsorship can still be competitive with teams that could (if allowed) spend resources on wind tunnel programs and what not. As has been shown, there are still a lot of ways to get an advantage on track, but having a lot more money won't be the only way to do it.

In my opinion, it has to be done. With so few cars, the series had been reduced to parades. They drop the ovals and it's real bad. Minimize costs and try and get some money coming in to the series/teams. Get car counts up and then slowly allow the spending to go up. ChampCar simply must be run like a feeder series to make it semi-economically feasible.

[Sean Malone]

ChampCar is trying to even out the budgets so that teams that can't get as much (or any) sponsorship can still be competitive with teams that could (if allowed) spend resources on wind tunnel programs and what not. As has been shown, there are still a lot of ways to get an advantage on track, but having a lot more money won't be the only way to do it.

In my opinion, it has to be done. With so few cars, the series had been reduced to parades. They drop the ovals and it's real bad. Minimize costs and try and get some money coming in to the series/teams. Get car counts up and then slowly allow the spending to go up. ChampCar simply must be run like a feeder series to make it semi-economically feasible.

If you look like a feeder series, act like a feeder series, feed drivers into other series...what are you?

Dropping ovals was a cost reducing measure on many levels i.e. car, venues etc.

Since the dawn of auto-racing the number one rule has always been money = speed. I don't see Kevin "We're racing in Ansan" Kalkovan changing that anytime soon. That rule applies down to the most amateur of club racing.

I've already detailed what I think Champ Car needs to do to survive and carve out their niche that I won't repeat here, but let me just say, I don't think club-racing finances with spec cars and no engine competition is the solution. But that's just me.

[Andrew Longman]

Are the Honda subsidies coming to an end in the EARL?

Well, many people say Dario's salary was picked up by Honda. Not any more.

[pchall]

I read Coyne's comments as meaning he doesn't have the money or resources to spend the needed time in a wind tunnel to be competitive in the IRL.

Dallara has a lot of aero bits in the parts book that the less well funded teams don't have the track time or the budget to buy and experiment with like AGR, Ganassi, and Penske.

As the areas open to development in Champ Car for the DP01 increase (as they are supposed to for 08 and 09) the top teams will once more have an edge.

[Insomniac]

If you look like a feeder series, act like a feeder series, feed drivers into other series...what are you?

Dropping ovals was a cost reducing measure on many levels i.e. car, venues etc.

Since the dawn of auto-racing the number one rule has always been money = speed. I don't see Kevin "We're racing in Ansan" Kalkovan changing that anytime soon. That rule applies down to the most amateur of club racing.

I've already detailed what I think Champ Car needs to do to survive and carve out their niche that I won't repeat here, but let me just say, I don't think club-racing finances with spec cars and no engine competition is the solution. But that's just me.

I agree with you long-term. It's the what do they do right now to increase the car count and outside entities (manufacturers and sponsors) part of the equation. I favor bootstrapping with a plan for the future. Lowering the cost of racing to a point that someone would find ROI on sponsorship is important in my opinion. That is, if teams are trying to run a business, not a hobby.

[Indy]

Chickens and eggs, Insomniac. IMO if they are not willing to uphold at least a minimum level of other important things (car counts, etc.) along with that spec car and engine, then the whole thing is a waste because they will never capture enough imaginations to generate sponsorships. In essence, they are trying to fake a top level series, but they have not been willing to pay for the good props, so the result is a series that looks and feels phony.

The reality is that they watched Tony George fail because he lacked the vision (ironically) to really return his series to its roots and instead created a fake CART. So what do they do? Create another fake CART. Brilliant.

[oddlycalm]

Well, many people say Dario's salary was picked up by Honda. Not any more. Very likely correct. The number of drivers earning anything more than token money is getting down to single digits for the EARL and CCWS combined. Those wanting to actually get paid are going cabbing.

Thanks Tony, great job. :shakehead

oc

[Insomniac]

Chickens and eggs, Insomniac. IMO if they are not willing to uphold at least a minimum level of other important things (car counts, etc.) along with that spec car and engine, then the whole thing is a waste because they will never capture enough imaginations to generate sponsorships. In essence, they are trying to fake a top level series, but they have not been willing to pay for the good props, so the result is a series that looks and feels phony.

I don't see it as a chicken and egg thing. Pook blew through a $100M war chest in one season. As many screw-ups these guys make, if they were spending more money, they'd be wasting it. They have tripped so many times this year. If they are going to spend like crazy, they better have a solid plan. There can't be constant changes to the plan. Does anyone here think they have a solid plan for success?

[Sean Malone]

... Does anyone here think they have a solid plan for success?

Not me. Based on the past few seasons it seems to be a "take what we can get", "let the chips fall where they may" sort of non plan.

I keep crossing my fingers that some huge announcement will shock and awe i.e. pseudo merger, major title sponsor etc. But I'm an optimist.

[emjaya]

Does anyone here think they have a solid plan for success?

I think Mazda has, and they are taking Champcar along for the ride. :\

[Sean Malone]

I think Mazda has, and they are taking Champcar along for the ride. :\

How so?

[emjaya]

Let me get back to you after I check that I know what I'm talking about. :gomer:

[cameraman]

Let me get back to you after I check that I know what I'm talking about. :gomer: This is the internet, why would you want to check facts?

[G.]

Let me get back to you after I check that I know what I'm talking about. :gomer:I know somthing,,,, must not discourse later,,,, in time,,,, bleating will be drip quick,,,,,, Steve Johnsons flying there,,, what side are you on sean,,,, that answer falls to deaf plantations,,,,



;-)

[Sean Malone]

I know somthing,,,, must not discourse later,,,, in time,,,, bleating will be drip quick,,,,,, Steve Johnsons flying there,,, what side are you on sean,,,, that answer falls to deaf plantations,,,,



;-)

:rofl:

I'm gettin' that tattooed on me!!!

[emjaya]

I know somthing,,,, must not discourse later,,,, in time,,,, bleating will be drip quick,,,,,, Steve Johnsons flying there,,, what side are you on sean,,,, that answer falls to deaf plantations,,,,



;-)

That's just mean. :p

I wanted to find an article I had read, but I couldn't find it. It was about Mazda and where they were headed in motor racing.
It mentioned open wheelers, but I cannot remember what was said exactly, something about that they were looking to move into bigger series. :\

[Sean Malone]

That's just mean. :p

I wanted to find an article I had read, but I couldn't find it. It was about Mazda and where they were headed in motor racing.
It mentioned open wheelers, but I cannot remember what was said exactly, something about that they were looking to move into bigger series. :\

Thanks for your concise, detailed information.

*runs*:)

[Ruben Barrios]

The true will survive,,,, bottled soda roof,,, you know what I mean,,,, Sometimes red is just red,,,, a battle, a win,,, let's just say if you knew,,,, I have friends in low places,,,,,, Stay the course soon,,, soon,,,,,, I,,,, I,,,, I,,,,, care to add anyone,,,,?????