Rusport gone - official [Archive]

jonovision_man

10-16-07, 06:52 PM

http://www.goldcoast.com.au/article/2007/10/17/3845_gold-coast-indy.html

JUSTIN Wilson, the most likely heir to the Champ Car throne, is without a drive in 2008 on the eve of this weekend's Gold Coast Indy.

The 29-year-old Englishmen arrived on the Gold Coast this week after just hearing that his team, RuSport Racing, is folding at the end of this season.

"I am in a difficult position," admitted the man who has been the closest to ending the reign of prolific Champ Car victor, Sebastien Bourdais.

"They (RuSport) have just announced they are closing down. They have just told me and the crew. They don't want to carry on. This weekend I will just have to see what my options are for next year."

Burried at the end was this little piece of "Please gimme some green KK!!!"...

Late yesterday RuSport owner Dan Pettit said the team was still looking for options for next year and there was still a chance the team would be on the grid in 2008.

"We are still committed to Champ Cars," he said.

jono

Indy

10-16-07, 07:04 PM

:yuck:

Indy

10-16-07, 07:05 PM

This just about does it. If CDW is not taking him elsewhere, and KK and GF can not put him in a guaranteed full season ride, then we the fans should band together and freaking boycott the series. Embarrass them as publicly as possible, generate huge negative publicity, and just try to kill the thing they don't have the sense to let die.

Damn it, I am mad. :mad:

Methanolandbrats

10-16-07, 07:07 PM

Is this the season or the off-season?

shaggy_socal

10-16-07, 07:56 PM

Great way to kick off a CC race weekend! :thumdown:

You think NHL's chances of signing JW have just gone up?

NismoZ

10-16-07, 07:57 PM

Spicoli

10-16-07, 08:09 PM

Not certain of course but I can't imagine King Carl replacing The Champ with anyone other than the best guy currently out there and that would be Wilson. Rahal gets the McDonalds car and my hope is CDW sticks with Justin and comes to N/H/L. Of course that makes too much sense, sooo....?

What fackin driber doesn;t want that seat?

My take? musical chairs until first practice lap at LBGP. IF that happens.

Gall-dang this is amateur hour.:shakehead

Rogue Leader

10-16-07, 08:11 PM

Nothin like having one of the former top teams in the series fold..... :rolleyes:

opinionated ow

10-16-07, 08:27 PM

ohhh buggery

nissan gtp

10-16-07, 08:31 PM

RuSport has been on the way out since Russo bailed

shaggy_socal

10-16-07, 09:29 PM

Signs that RuSport was in trouble...

1. Carl leaves the team.
2. RuSport goes from two cars to one car.
3. Merges operations with RocketSports and becomes RSport.(This was the biggest sign, IMO)
4. Un-merges from RSport citing marketing issues(?)

All that and they're holding down second in the points.

Indy

10-16-07, 10:03 PM

All that and they're holding down second in the points.

But the racing is good. Right? :saywhat: :rolleyes: If I weren't so freaking jaded, I think I would cry.

Of course, that can also be taken as a testament to the quality of the few individuals who actually work on that team, so to them, cheers. :thumbup:

shaggy_socal

10-16-07, 10:15 PM

Of course, that can also be taken as a testament to the quality of the few individuals who actually work on that team, so to them, cheers. :thumbup:

Either that or it shows the low quality of the competition they're racing against. :) It just depends on your POV.

extramundane

10-16-07, 10:16 PM

Carl Russo is not leaving Champ Car in any fashion

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

:yuck:

Spicoli

10-16-07, 10:20 PM

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

:yuck:

reason # 878233,7650907752,0992108873,0226557 to hate that dumbass cocksuycker. :thumdown:

[gentiloser, not Russo}

Fio1

10-16-07, 11:15 PM

This all started with Allmendinger going to Forsythe....:saywhat:

RHR_Fan

10-16-07, 11:32 PM

Indy

10-16-07, 11:38 PM

This all started with Allmendinger going to Forsythe....:saywhat:

I don't think that is how it started. I know just enough to know that I don't really know the whole story, and I doubt I ever will.

Russo was a short timer for several reasons, and events conspired to push him out quickly. I remain convinced he would have left anyway.

opinionated ow

10-17-07, 12:27 AM

Cripes. :(

A year ago I would have criticized those who were very concerned about Champ Car's future. Now sometimes I feel I have no choice but to agree. I think there will be a 2008, but I am not as excited for future seasons as I have been in the past. And coming from me that is saying something. I went to the final Brewer game in the end of September and I am missing Brewer baseball more than CC.

I ain't no d&g'er, but cheerleading has been awfully tough lately...

~Nicole
might not be quite the same as champ cars on ovals in wisconsin, but rumours persist that USAC Midget and Sprints will make several pavement stops in WI in 2008...at least that is openwheel racing with a purpose...

Rogue Leader

10-17-07, 07:34 AM

I'm no D&Ger either... but stuff like this just makes me straight out not care..... We have NHL which kills all, and an occasional interloper who gets lucky, Forsythe sucks, and no one else has the cash to mount a good resistance, because unless your name is Paul Newman you cant get a big name to put themself on a car. I just don't care anymore.

emjaya

10-17-07, 07:36 AM

Cripes. :(

A year ago I would have criticized those who were very concerned about Champ Car's future. Now sometimes I feel I have no choice but to agree. I think there will be a 2008, but I am not as excited for future seasons as I have been in the past. And coming from me that is saying something. I went to the final Brewer game in the end of September and I am missing Brewer baseball more than CC.

I ain't no d&g'er, but cheerleading has been awfully tough lately...

~Nicole

Yep, my pom-poms are getting a little tattered. :\

Sean Malone

10-17-07, 08:20 AM

Cripes. :(

I ain't no d&g'er, but cheerleading has been awfully tough lately...

~Nicole

I like to think of it more in the terms of being a 'realist'.

I'm going to make sure I watch the last two races. Maybe the on track performance will overshadow the dark clouds.

Sean O'Gorman

10-17-07, 09:08 AM

Hey, at least Hustler can go back on the Rocketsports cars, right? :laugh:

Methanolandbrats

10-17-07, 09:16 AM

I keep thinking of the number 1.2 when I read many of the recent threads.

opinionated ow

10-17-07, 09:20 AM

Hey, at least Hustler can go back on the Rocketsports cars, right? :laugh:

and then ,,,,,,,, can tell us how great and family friendly a sponsor they are,,,,,,

Sean Malone

10-17-07, 09:24 AM

and then ,,,,,,,, can tell us how great and family friendly a sponsor they are,,,,,,

Nudie mags lead to horny guys that lead to sex with wife which leads to baby which makes a family = thus, "family friendly".
Watch about 15 minutes of ABC Family channel and there will be 13 references to sex. No joke.

KLang

10-17-07, 09:27 AM

If CDW is not taking him elsewhere, and KK and GF can not put him in a guaranteed full season ride, then we the fans should band together and freaking boycott the series. Embarrass them as publicly as possible, generate huge negative publicity, and just try to kill the thing they don't have the sense to let die.

:laugh: A little dramatic don't ya think? Just stop watching already.

As others have stated, When Carl left this was inevitable. Hopefully they have convinced CDW to stay on in some way.

TKGAngel

10-17-07, 09:36 AM

and then ,,,,,,,, can tell us how great and family friendly a sponsor they are,,,,,,

I thought ,,,,, was on a timeout from his soapbox?

I'll be watching the next two races, if only because I don't know if they could be the last two races for Champcar. Teams are folding, sponsors are virtually non-existent, there is no schedule, you don't know the drivers without a program (and chances are, if you did have a program, it would be obsolete at the start of race weekend), and TV ratings are in the toilet.

While I usually can admire people who can find the bright sides of things, its getting harder and harder to in this situation.

Methanolandbrats

10-17-07, 09:54 AM

First time in over 25 years I don't care if I watch it or not. American Open Wheel is such a disaster someone should push the handle and flush it.

opinionated ow

10-17-07, 09:59 AM

I thought ,,,,, was on a timeout from his soapbox?
no idea, i havent willing visited CCFantasies since I earnt my ban

I'll be watching the next two races, if only because I don't know if they could be the last two races for Champcar. Teams are folding, sponsors are virtually non-existent, there is no schedule, you don't know the drivers without a program (and chances are, if you did have a program, it would be obsolete at the start of race weekend), and TV ratings are in the toilet.

While I usually can admire people who can find the bright sides of things, its getting harder and harder to in this situation.
i can do nothing but agree with you...however I won't be watching mexico because frankly 2AM on a Tuesday is no longer worth it.

Sean Malone

10-17-07, 10:29 AM

no idea, i havent willing visited CCFantasies since I earnt my ban

i can do nothing but agree with you...however I won't be watching mexico because frankly 2AM on a Tuesday is no longer worth it.

Is that really when it's on?

opinionated ow

10-17-07, 11:27 AM

Is that really when it's on?

yes. last season i watched every one....this year, half of edmonton only.

Andrew Longman

10-17-07, 11:57 AM

yes. last season i watched every one....this year, half of edmonton only.

2 am OZ time.

2 pm 11 November here. Sean calm down.

I remember being in Melbourne in 96 when the Yanks made it back to the WS for the first time since I was in college. I worked all day and then sat up all night watching bits of the games broadcast on tape.

Dirk Diggler

10-17-07, 12:36 PM

Nudie mags lead to horny guys...

Indeed. Without nudie mags, there would be no horny guys.:cool:

Fio1

10-17-07, 01:06 PM

Hey, at least Hustler can go back on the Rocketsports cars, right? :laugh:

Was that really on one of the Rocketsport cars? Why not, if they pay the bill who cares? I don't think CCWS is their demographics, but whatever. Maybe they put Hustler Casino or something.

jonovision_man

10-17-07, 01:09 PM

I like to think of it more in the terms of being a 'realist'.

I'm going to make sure I watch the last two races. Maybe the on track performance will overshadow the dark clouds.

2007 on-track = entertaining races, compelling storylines, worth watching :thumbup:

2007 off-track = trainwreck :thumdown:

17 cars, 3 cancelled races and playing musical drivers, it overshadows everything the debut season of the new car should have been about.

2008 already looks grim... no schedule, no solid new entries (solid departures, though!)... let's hope there is an on-track to enjoy.

jono

10-17-07, 01:18 PM

I said a long time a go, this season is over. Yeah, I'll catch the 2 races, but for my own sanity, try to not let the dumbf***ery bug me.

If 2008 doesn't start out with one HELL of a lot more bang than someone waking up KK from his Antarctic penguin buggery, I'll have more free time next year.

oddlycalm

10-17-07, 01:19 PM

Chief

10-17-07, 01:57 PM

:thumbup:
Unfortunate but not unexpected. My take is that reacting emotionally to each piece of news is a waste of effort. These guys will either answer the bell at Long Beach or they won't. They have some time to pull things together between now and then and if they don't it's because they no longer care.
oc
great take

Spicoli

10-17-07, 02:11 PM

Was that really on one of the Rocketsport cars? Why not, if they pay the bill who cares? I don't think CCWS is their demographics, but whatever. Maybe they put Hustler Casino or something.

They were using the logos "Hustler Clubs" which is larry Flint's strip bar chain. Read here: http://www.hustlerclubs.com/ its all things porno. evidently they painted up the car and some folks got word of it, and the CDW people in Yurp (which is where it was to debut) had a major schnit fit and Gentilozzier backed off of it.

I can see why - 100% - that people got pizzed. He tried the AVN thing too, and that also got shot down. i'd be gone too. Paul treid it twice and both times ended up doing damage in the PR/Paddock/Sponsor areas.

He just freaking needs to go. Unless KK & Unka Gerry are complete isiots - which they are not - they have to see the damage that Sir Paulie has done and send him packing.:thumdown: :flame:

There was a pic floating around of the Hustler Club logo on the car, but I didn;t save it. figgered it'd end up on Splyplanes anyway - but it didn't.

check yur pms.

KLang

10-17-07, 02:24 PM

Unfortunate but not unexpected. My take is that reacting emotionally to each piece of news is a waste of effort. These guys will either answer the bell at Long Beach or they won't. They have some time to pull things together between now and then and if they don't it's because they no longer care.

oc

yep. :thumbup: Life is too short, and this crap has been going on too long, to get too excited about the day to day non-racing stuff.

Ankf00

10-17-07, 02:26 PM

Life is too short, and this crap has been going on too long, to get too excited about the racing stuff.

FIFY :)

RHR_Fan

10-17-07, 02:52 PM

I like to think of it more in the terms of being a 'realist'.

I'm going to make sure I watch the last two races. Maybe the on track performance will overshadow the dark clouds.

We can only hope so. There have been good races this year, but all of the off-track bullcrap has overshadowed those races.

~Nicole

spinner26

10-17-07, 04:01 PM

This just about does it. Embarrass them as publicly as possible, generate huge negative publicity, and just try to kill the thing they don't have the sense to let die.

You really think what fans are left can do any more damage than they have done to themselves? Give me a break. This is worse than anything remotely close to amature I have ever witnessed. I hope KK gets hung by his sack in his lawsuit and GF runs out of money quickly.

This was their playground and they threw more sand outa the box than Pook or any others before them combined. What a joke!:rolleyes: :shakehead :rofl:

Gnam

10-17-07, 04:24 PM

Late yesterday RuSport owner Dan Pettit said the team was still looking for options for next year and there was still a chance the team would be on the grid in 2008.

"We are still committed to Champ Cars," he said.
So are they Allmendinger gone, or just Mario Dominguez gone?

Ruben Barrios

10-17-07, 05:58 PM

I don't think CCWS is their demographics, but whatever.

I -ajem- "read" hustler.... It is not a classy magazine, but hey it serves my distastefull needs of sleeze...

Andrew Longman

10-17-07, 07:04 PM

This is worse than anything remotely close to amature I have ever witnessed. I hope KK gets hung by his sack in his lawsuit and GF runs out of money quickly.

This was their playground and they threw more sand outa the box than Pook or any others before them combined. What a joke!:rolleyes: :shakehead :rofl:

That may be a bit harsh.

The single greatest challenge/failure of CCWS has been its inability to attract sponsorship sufficient to sustain and attract teams. There is a lot that is creating that problem, much of which I am not close enough to judge, but a lot of it are chicken and egg type issues. Letting Bridgestone and Ford go, having an instable schedule and team/driver lineup doesn't help. Still, if even the principle owners can't/don't draw meaningful sponsorship how does anyone expect anyone else to?

This may well have been a failure exercise from the beginning. By the time CART failed, OW racing was so messed up by TGs tantrum, high costs, greed and the NASCAR juggernaught that nothing these guys may have done would have saved it anyway.

stroker

10-17-07, 07:24 PM

y'know, Windtunnel needs to do a show dedicated completely to CC. Then another one for the .1RL.

I wonder what the reaction at CC central would be to the call-ins from that show...

extramundane

10-17-07, 08:32 PM

y'know, Windtunnel needs to do a show dedicated completely to CC. Then another one for the .1RL.

I wonder what the reaction at CC central would be to the call-ins from that show...

"It's all Robin Miller's fault!"

jonovision_man

10-17-07, 08:43 PM

This may well have been a failure exercise from the beginning. By the time CART failed, OW racing was so messed up by TGs tantrum, high costs, greed and the NASCAR juggernaught that nothing these guys may have done would have saved it anyway.

We'll never know what competent management could have brought.

Stability is what was needed, and we got the exact opposite - total chaos. Races, teams, drivers, all changing every season. On a different TV station every year (often several during the same seasion!).

Just one season I'd have liked to see them run every race they scheduled. Is that so much to ask? :saywhat:

jono

Tim

10-17-07, 08:45 PM

It's weird to think these last 2 races are more than likely it.

cart7

10-17-07, 09:30 PM

That may be a bit harsh.

The single greatest challenge/failure of CCWS has been its inability to attract sponsorship sufficient to sustain and attract teams. There is a lot that is creating that problem, much of which I am not close enough to judge, but a lot of it are chicken and egg type issues. Letting Bridgestone and Ford go, having an instable schedule and team/driver lineup doesn't help. Still, if even the principle owners can't/don't draw meaningful sponsorship how does anyone expect anyone else to?

This may well have been a failure exercise from the beginning. By the time CART failed, OW racing was so messed up by TGs tantrum, high costs, greed and the NASCAR juggernaught that nothing these guys may have done would have saved it anyway.

Yep, the saviour needed to come along circa 1994-1996 and redirect CART away from the Speedway for good while they still had the sponsors, manufacturers, teams and drivers.

By the time 2002 ended it was all but over.

10-18-07, 01:10 AM

It's weird to think these last 2 races are more than likely it.I doubt it. I think they'll show. Just better "WOW" me.

Oddlycalm nailed what I was thinking, just with more eloquence and less dumbf***ery.:p

jonovision_man

10-18-07, 07:32 AM

Yep, the saviour needed to come along circa 1994-1996 and redirect CART away from the Speedway for good while they still had the sponsors, manufacturers, teams and drivers.

By the time 2002 ended it was all but over.

I think you'll find that the mismanaged series that has the Indy 500 is doing OK, that race is the lifeblood of US OW and has been since long before 1994...

jono

ChrisB

10-18-07, 07:37 AM

Yep, the saviour needed to come along circa 1994-1996 and redirect CART away from the Speedway for good while they still had the sponsors, manufacturers, teams and drivers.

Actually, as best I've heard, Andrew Craig really did want to steer CART away from Indy and go its own way... but he was hamstrung by the lack of executive power that a CART president was allowed to have... and could not over-rule the owners/franchisees who still wanted to work things out with Indy.

Apparently Pook would have taken the job in 2000 after AC, but he declined because of lack of executive power... and so that one year of Joe Heitzler did a lot of damage. Only after he was fired did Pook take the job when the board said he could have a bigger vote.

Indy

10-18-07, 09:04 AM

Actually, as best I've heard, Andrew Craig really did want to steer CART away from Indy and go its own way... but he was hamstrung by the lack of executive power that a CART president was allowed to have... and could not over-rule the owners/franchisees who still wanted to work things out with Indy.

Yup. CART is a good example of the fundamental weakness of a democracy: once the citizens realize they can vote themselves the treasury, the end is near.

The funny thing is that CC is not really behaving so differently than CART in many ways. It merely has a smaller committee running it. Funny stuff.

(And by funny, I don't mean funny-haha, but funny-pathetic.)

Andrew Longman

10-18-07, 09:38 AM

I think you'll find that the mismanaged series that has the Indy 500 is doing OK, that race is the lifeblood of US OW and has been since long before 1994...

jono

By my count six of the last 12 500 winners are racing in NASCAR or elsewhere. Another wants to be there. The rest are retired. By that measure the series being supported by the 500 is not the IRL.

Add to that the fact that the top three teams and the only ones really capable of winning a race have added sports car teams in the last few years, presumably as a hedge if the IRL falls further and/or to make up for the sponsor profile/dollars they are lacking in the IRL.

Sean Malone

10-18-07, 10:08 AM

By my count six of the last 12 500 winners are racing in NASCAR or elsewhere. Another wants to be there. The rest are retired. By that measure the series being supported by the 500 is not the IRL.

Add to that the fact that the top three teams and the only ones really capable of winning a race have added sports car teams in the last few years, presumably as a hedge if the IRL falls further and/or to make up for the sponsor profile/dollars they are lacking in the IRL.

Kapow!!!!!

Spot on. :thumbup:

WestMcLarenF1

10-18-07, 10:11 AM

Last one of you to leave please turn out the lights and lock the door. :)

Sean Malone

10-18-07, 10:22 AM

Last one of you to leave please turn out the lights and lock the door. :)

It ain't over 'til it's over but might I suggest the post Champ Car focus of OC turn to a consumer reporting for the discerning minded. :)

jonovision_man

10-18-07, 11:10 AM

Methanolandbrats

10-18-07, 11:14 AM

That's the wrong measure. :gomer:

Try another measure - money. Where do you think the money for the IRL comes from?

jono Japan and Tony's Mom.

Sean Malone

10-18-07, 11:17 AM

Japan and Tony's Mom.

:thumbup:

Strike 2 jono.

Watch out for the outside sinker.

Ankf00

10-18-07, 11:33 AM

I've been a fan of the backdoor slider from age 6 on

Sean Malone

10-18-07, 11:38 AM

I've been a fan of the backdoor slider from age 6 on

I've heard they start em young in Hog Heaven. :)

Andrew Longman

10-18-07, 11:39 AM

That's the wrong measure. :gomer:

Try another measure - money. Where do you think the money for the IRL comes from?

jono

There is little doubt that the 500 itself produces enough value to attract sponsors, pay a decent purse (and many would say they could afford to pay more), and collect $15 million in TV money.

But the rest of the season is only slightly more relevant than CC and still faces the same shortcomings that USAC did in 1979 and before. Ratings are poor, fields are short and require the likes of Roth and Duno and the Vision cars, and Honda is reportedly paying salaries for (many of?) the top drivers and those subsidies are depressing sponsor values in general.

Sure, you can be a fan of IRL season and some of the venues produce entertaining racing. There are a lot of fans. Just not enough of them. The IRL could just run their May race and it would hardly have an impact on their business. If fact it might even help it because if no one had the technical advantage of running the full season and it was a one off for everyone, a lot more teams and drivers would consider it.

WestMcLarenF1

10-18-07, 12:12 PM

Turn out the lights
The party's over
They say that
All good things must end
Call it tonight
The party's over
And tomorrow starts
The same old thing again

But the crazy crazy party
Never seen so many people
Laughing dancing
Look at you you're having fun
But look at me
I'm almost cryin'
That don't keep her love from dyin'
Misery cause for me the party's over
Turn out the lights...

Once I had a love undyin'
I didn't keep it but I tried
Life for me was just one party
And then another
I broke her heart so many times
I had to have my parting wife
I had to have my party
Why broke her heart so many times
But one day she said
Sweetheart the party's over
Turn out the lights...

Insomniac

10-18-07, 01:01 PM

Japan and Tony's Mom.

Don't forget the BY 400.

jonovision_man

10-18-07, 02:17 PM

There is little doubt that the 500 itself produces enough value to attract sponsors, pay a decent purse (and many would say they could afford to pay more), and collect $15 million in TV money.

Agreed. I rest my case.

But the rest of the season is only slightly more relevant than CC and still faces the same shortcomings that USAC did in 1979 and before.

Agreed, exactly. The Indy 500 props up the rest.

Ratings are poor, fields are short and require the likes of Roth and Duno and the Vision cars, and Honda is reportedly paying salaries for (many of?) the top drivers and those subsidies are depressing sponsor values in general.

Agreed, exactly. The Indy 500 props up the rest.

Sure, you can be a fan of IRL season and some of the venues produce entertaining racing. There are a lot of fans. Just not enough of them. The IRL could just run their May race and it would hardly have an impact on their business. If fact it might even help it because if no one had the technical advantage of running the full season and it was a one off for everyone, a lot more teams and drivers would consider it.

Agreed, exactly. The Indy 500 props up the rest.

I'm a little confused which side you're arguing, you seem to be supporting my side. The Indy 500 is the lifeblood of US OW, without it the IRL would be toast, CART would have been toast if it left it (in fact it is toast precisely because it was booted from it), and ChampCar is well on its way to being toast as well.

jono

Sean Malone

10-18-07, 02:53 PM

Agreed. I rest my case.

Agreed, exactly. The Indy 500 props up the rest.

Agreed, exactly. The Indy 500 props up the rest.

Agreed, exactly. The Indy 500 props up the rest.

I'm a little confused which side you're arguing, you seem to be supporting my side. The Indy 500 is the lifeblood of US OW, without it the IRL would be toast, CART would have been toast if it left it (in fact it is toast precisely because it was booted from it), and ChampCar is well on its way to being toast as well.

jono

If I can throw in my 2 cents, the point is, is that it wasn't always this way and didn't have to become the way it is.

To argue that the IRL has any significance and success what so ever is ridiculous. One has but to look at the attendance and TV ratings. Simple.

They are not successful and the Indy 500 which is propping up the series as you say is dieing. Actually it's Tony George and Honda and the Brickyard 400 propping up the IRL, not the 500.

Tony George = at fault.

jonovision_man

10-18-07, 03:23 PM

If I can throw in my 2 cents, the point is, is that it wasn't always this way and didn't have to become the way it is.

To argue that the IRL has any significance and success what so ever is ridiculous. One has but to look at the attendance and TV ratings. Simple.

They are not successful and the Indy 500 which is propping up the series as you say is dieing. Actually it's Tony George and Honda and the Brickyard 400 propping up the IRL, not the 500.

Tony George = at fault.

The question is whether you can have a successful US OW series without the Indy 500. I don't think you can. It's hard enough to have a viable series with the Indy 500, the IRL is demonstrating that every day (although that's as much a management issue as ChampCar's woes IMO).

The BY400 helps, Honda barely helps at all anymore... the Indy 500 is BY FAR the biggest reason why the IRL exists, without it it never would have been formed and certainly wouldn't be around today!

jono

Easy

10-18-07, 03:25 PM

Hopefully they have convinced CDW to stay on in some way.

CDW is based about 2 miles from Newman-Haas. Newman-Haas has the best sponsor man in AOWR. If they can't keep CDW in Champ Car with J. Wilson at Newman Haas it might even convince the crappers of Champ Car's lack of viability as a promotional platform.

Andrew Longman

10-18-07, 03:36 PM

...The Indy 500 is the lifeblood of US OW, without it the IRL would be toast...

The 500 and other IMS/Holman properties financially prop up the IRL but they do little to make the rest of the season more popular or financially rewarding.

From a sponsors point of view it adds little value, or at least it is vastly overwhelmed by the 500. Teams may make enough from running the 500 to justify the rest of the season.

And to the degree that the winner gains fame and popularity they now leverage that by running to NASCAR rather continuing to compete in the series.

I also contend that CART didn't die (and possibly CC too) because they didn't have the 500. Its far more complicated than that. The split pissing off fans at the same time NASCAR was cleverly building popularity with the general public eroded interest in OW racing in general to the point that the manufacturers looked to take their diminishing ROI to the only thing left of value in OW and that's the 500.

jonovision_man

10-18-07, 03:43 PM

The 500 and other IMS/Holman properties financially prop up the IRL but they do little to make the rest of the season more popular or financially rewarding.

It's the only reason there's enough cars on the grid for the rest of the IRL season to exist at all!

I don't get why the resistance to this, it's so obvious...

From a sponsors point of view it adds little value, or at least it is vastly overwhelmed by the 500. Teams may make enough from running the 500 to justify the rest of the season.

Of course they do. And Tony has just sweetened the pot with team assistance money for the rest of the season, again more money from the 500 being put into propping up the rest of the IRL.

I'm a little confused on where we disagree... we both seem to be saying the same thing.

And to the degree that the winner gains fame and popularity they now leverage that by running to NASCAR rather continuing to compete in the series.

OK...

I also contend that CART didn't die (and possibly CC too) because they didn't have the 500. Its far more complicated than that. The split pissing off fans at the same time NASCAR was cleverly building popularity with the general public eroded interest in OW racing in general to the point that the manufacturers looked to take their diminishing ROI to the only thing left of value in OW and that's the 500.

This is the more salient point of our disagreement... but I think you're missing something important. CART without the Indy 500 implies another series is running it, and that means a split. If the Indy 500 completely ceased to exist and there was no other series to compete with, then maybe - maybe - CART could exist without the Indy 500. But that is a completely impossible scenario.

jono

Ed_Severson

10-18-07, 03:46 PM

CART could have existed quite well without the Indianapolis 500 ... the only thing that prevented them from doing it was that they refused to try.

cameraman

10-18-07, 04:03 PM

CART could have existed quite well without the Indianapolis 500 ... the only thing that prevented them from doing it was that they refused to try.

It would be nice if the current owners tried a little too instead of whatever the **** they call their current management technique.

Methanolandbrats

10-18-07, 04:54 PM

It would be nice if the current owners tried a little too instead of whatever the **** they call their current management technique. Even gone to the zoo and watched the demented monkeys toss balls of **** at each other? They have no other option and sometimes they hit their target. Pretty much the same management style.

Sean Malone

10-18-07, 05:03 PM

The BY400 helps, Honda barely helps at all anymore... the Indy 500 is BY FAR the biggest reason why the IRL exists, without it it never would have been formed and certainly wouldn't be around today!

jono

Well duh, let's eliminate the unknowns K?

As for Honda barely helping...news to me. Guess we'll see in May eh?

jonovision_man

10-18-07, 06:47 PM

Well duh, let's eliminate the unknowns K?

As for Honda barely helping...news to me. Guess we'll see in May eh?

Toyota's gone and Honda is getting paid for engines. How much do you think flows from Honda to Tony? It's all private, but I'd be willing to bet a lot that it's exactly the opposite, he's paying them to keep lease prices low.

jono

Spicoli

10-18-07, 07:05 PM

Easy

10-19-07, 11:01 AM

It would be nice if the current owners tried a little too instead of whatever the **** they call their current management technique.

They make the people that oversaw Coke II look like Jack Welch.

Andrew Longman

10-19-07, 11:38 AM

I don't get why the resistance to this, it's so obvious...

We agree the 500 funds the rest of the season. What you're missing is that if the rest of the season needs funding, what's the point of the rest of the season?

Daytona 500 earnings don't fund the NASCAR season, but it does help build interest and excitement for the NASCAR season. Indy apparently does not do the same for the IRL (and didn't for USAC). Only when CART took an interest in developing the series and championship did OW racing as a series really succeed. Once Tony wanted a piece of that and alienated the fan base that was already being courted by NASCAR then, well you know the story... :)

nrc

10-19-07, 11:50 AM

Toyota's gone and Honda is getting paid for engines. How much do you think flows from Honda to Tony? It's all private, but I'd be willing to bet a lot that it's exactly the opposite, he's paying them to keep lease prices low.

jono

Whether the money goes directly to Tony doesn't really matter. Honda is still contributing a substantial amount to keep the IRL afloat. Without the money they put into their factory teams their grid would instantly wilt. Without the sponsorship money they put into multiple venues their calendar would instantly wilt.

Insomniac

10-19-07, 12:03 PM

Whether the money goes directly to Tony doesn't really matter. Honda is still contributing a substantial amount to keep the IRL afloat. Without the money they put into their factory teams their grid would instantly wilt. Without the sponsorship money they put into multiple venues their calendar would instantly wilt.

However the money works, there's no question that they appear more stable than ChampCar right now. Which is quite sad.

jonovision_man

10-19-07, 12:22 PM

We agree the 500 funds the rest of the season. What you're missing is that if the rest of the season needs funding, what's the point of the rest of the season?

Daytona 500 earnings don't fund the NASCAR season, but it does help build interest and excitement for the NASCAR season. Indy apparently does not do the same for the IRL (and didn't for USAC). Only when CART took an interest in developing the series and championship did OW racing as a series really succeed. Once Tony wanted a piece of that and alienated the fan base that was already being courted by NASCAR then, well you know the story... :)

I applaud every effort to develop the series and the championship, I'm not "missing" anything in that, I get it. Even KK gets that, showed it with the focus he put on Atlantics.

But no matter how hard one tries to ignore the Indy 500, it is the gorilla of US OW and it can not be ignored, and it's becoming painfully clear that without it you can't succeed in the U.S.

I still think you're missing this:

I think you're missing something important. CART without the Indy 500 implies another series is running it, and that means a split. If the Indy 500 completely ceased to exist and there was no other series to compete with, then maybe - maybe - CART could exist without the Indy 500. But that is a completely impossible scenario.

jono

Andrew Longman

10-19-07, 12:39 PM

But no matter how hard one tries to ignore the Indy 500, it is the gorilla of US OW and it can not be ignored, and it's becoming painfully clear that without it you can't succeed in the U.S. jono

But its also clear that with it, a series is not endured of success either. USAC didn't and from the IRLs history, simply using IMS revenue to fund teams and events cannot be seen in any way as running a successful season. It's pointless.

You are saying having two series makes it difficult to succeed. Agreed. Which is why so many gasped and shook their head when TG started the second series. And when that series did not include the diversity of venues that made CART successful, many wondered just what question the IRL was trying to answer. Now that the IRL is making a cheapened recreation of CART, many wonder what the point of it all was.

Yes the 500 may be the gorrila of OW racing in NA, but its also about all there is left of any importance.

Methanolandbrats

10-19-07, 12:43 PM

Ask potential American sponsors and an average American about open wheel racing and they only know two words, Indy and Andretti, that's it. (Unser used to be a familiar name too, but now only readers of Smoking Gun are familiar with them). KK understands trying to build an American Open Wheel Series without Indy is next to impossible, that is why there is an emphasis on global expansion and global business relationships. It's a sound model if international companies come on board. FTG has Indy and he has a mountain of money, he can keep his hobby going forever if he wants to.

jonovision_man

10-19-07, 01:18 PM

But its also clear that with it, a series is not endured of success either. USAC didn't and from the IRLs history, simply using IMS revenue to fund teams and events cannot be seen in any way as running a successful season. It's pointless.

You are saying having two series makes it difficult to succeed. Agreed. Which is why so many gasped and shook their head when TG started the second series. And when that series did not include the diversity of venues that made CART successful, many wondered just what question the IRL was trying to answer. Now that the IRL is making a cheapened recreation of CART, many wonder what the point of it all was.

Yes the 500 may be the gorrila of OW racing in NA, but its also about all there is left of any importance.

I agree 100% all around.

jono

Sean Malone

10-19-07, 01:33 PM

Andrew Longman

10-19-07, 02:02 PM

I say not very in the bigger scheme of things.

You could put it on par with Mardi Gras in New Orleans (say pre-Katrina).

It's a big regional event that happens once a year with a lot of history and traditions associated with it. People will travel to it, but its mostly locals that participate. And it will catch some press every year noting its passing. A lot of folks will watch it on TV but only about as many as watch a regular NASCAR race.

But it no longer draws manufacturers, suppliers, and the top drivers and teams of the sport. It no longer hold the fascination of speed records and new technology. It no longer creates the dramatic stories of struggling to make the race. The cars a spec and have so much downforce the drama of negotiating the corners at speed is gone (unless you are watching Mikla). Even the winners no longer becomes household names but rather MIGHT get a seat in a mid-level NASCAR ride.

One thing I am glad to see gone it the carnage is largely gone. I could gladly live through many Mays to come without another death.

jonovision_man

10-19-07, 02:03 PM

And it's VERY debatable how important it is.

I say not very in the bigger scheme of things. And jono can jump up and down all he wants about Honda being insignificantly involved, they leave...bye bye IRL.

Jump! Jump! Jump! :p

The Indy 500 - not Honda - was how TG started the IRL in the first place, it's nothing short of complete absurdity to suggest that the IRL would be dead without Honda.

jono

Sean Malone

10-19-07, 02:07 PM

Jump! Jump! Jump! :p

The Indy 500 - not Honda - was how TG started the IRL in the first place, it's nothing short of complete absurdity to suggest that the IRL would be dead without Honda.

jono

BS. Keep in mind it was a HEALTHY Indy 500. Now the once meaningful event needs help from multiple outside sources. He wouldn't be able to duplicate his tantrum today.

What's the plan for when Handout Honda does leave? Ilmor I suppose.

All's peachy right? Right.

Andrew Longman

10-19-07, 02:11 PM

Jump! Jump! Jump! :p

The Indy 500 - not Honda - was how TG started the IRL in the first place, it's nothing short of complete absurdity to suggest that the IRL would be dead without Honda.

jono

TG can run the IRL for a long time off IMS money. But it was Honda (and Toyota) money that replaced the likes of Menard and Cheever with Penske, Ganassi, Rahal and Andretti.

They will race where Honda pays them to race and if Honda leaves the IRL so will they. Off to ALMS, GA or NASCAR they go unless TG can beat the money.

jonovision_man

10-19-07, 02:21 PM

BS. Keep in mind it was a HEALTHY Indy 500. Now the once meaningful event needs help from multiple outside sources. He wouldn't be able to duplicate his tantrum today.

What's the plan for when Handout Honda does leave? Ilmor I suppose.

All's peachy right? Right.

Nothing is peachy in US OW, but it's a lot less peachy when you're trying to run a series without the benefit of the fistfuls of money from the Indy 500.

US OW series with Indy 500 = struggling credibility
US OW series without Indy 500 = no credibility

jono

nrc

10-19-07, 04:40 PM

Nothing is peachy in US OW, but it's a lot less peachy when you're trying to run a series without the benefit of the fistfuls of money from the Indy 500.

US OW series with Indy 500 = struggling credibility
US OW series without Indy 500 = no credibility

jono

What has "credibility" got to do with the Indy 500? For a long time the IRL had no credibility even with the Indy 500. CART had credibility even after they no longer ran the Indy 500. It's been the actions of management that have cost CCWS their credibility. If you mean to say "viability" or "sponsor value" those are different things.

Andrew Longman

10-19-07, 05:32 PM

US OW series without Indy 500 = no credibility

jono

You're now using credibility as your measure. That's fine, but that's a different line of reasoning.

A credible series has to as to be reasonablly technically sophisticated and competitively challenging. It needs to race at the premier venues in its market. And it needs to create enough value to draw and support top competitors.

Neither series is hitting well on all those cylinders.

IMO CC could do it fine if they build a solid schedule of solid events in NA and Europe and the Pacific, but they need to differentiate it from F1 and A1GP.

I think it has to be clearly seen as a NA interpretation of racing which to me means diverse venues, including ovals, and fantastic fan experience and access.

But changing driver lineups, putting huge gaps in the schedule, cancelling events, hosting crappy events like SJ was and Phoenix was going to be, and having a crappy TV package isn't going to make any series successful with or without the 500.

DagoFast

10-19-07, 05:43 PM

If the fi-hunnert arguably funds the rest of the irl season then the only .02 I have to toss out is that Nascar is effectively where toeknee makes his money. Take away the BY400 and how does his balance sheet look?

Now ask yourself, who is in a postion to not only lure Honda to leave the leeg while simultaneously threatining to cut off the cash cow that is the BY400?

And if that still doesn't penetrate a certain thick skull, how about a certain leeg also getting the boot from Watkins Glen and all the remaining ISC tracks?

jonovision_man

10-19-07, 05:47 PM

What has "credibility" got to do with the Indy 500? For a long time the IRL had no credibility even with the Indy 500. CART had credibility even after they no longer ran the Indy 500. It's been the actions of management that have cost CCWS their credibility. If you mean to say "viability" or "sponsor value" those are different things.

Fine.

US OW series with Indy 500 = struggling for viability
US OW series without Indy 500 = no viability

I can live with that, that's where this discussion started.

jono

jonovision_man

10-19-07, 05:48 PM

jonovision_man

10-19-07, 05:49 PM

You're now using credibility as your measure. That's fine, but that's a different line of reasoning.

A credible series has to as to be reasonablly technically sophisticated and competitively challenging. It needs to race at the premier venues in its market. And it needs to create enough value to draw and support top competitors.

Neither series is hitting well on all those cylinders.

IMO CC could do it fine if they build a solid schedule of solid events in NA and Europe and the Pacific, but they need to differentiate it from F1 and A1GP.

I think it has to be clearly seen as a NA interpretation of racing which to me means diverse venues, including ovals, and fantastic fan experience and access.

But changing driver lineups, putting huge gaps in the schedule, cancelling events, hosting crappy events like SJ was and Phoenix was going to be, and having a crappy TV package isn't going to make any series successful with or without the 500.

Basically you're saying that US OW without the Indy 500 can work... if it leaves the US. ;)

jono