Team Aussie Penalty!

[NismoZ]

Great. Team Aussie loses 40% of their P2P this weekend for using it at Assen after the glitch was found. I guess they used it. Sweet that it happens at Surfers.:shakehead Has Ferrari even been slapped down at Monza?:D (Clarke, Daziel, Jani and Bruno also lose P2P time.)

[Andrew Longman]

Odd they didn't simply take away points. IIRC they weren't the only ones who continued to use it either.

Hey, there's a race this weekend? Something different to talk about.

[Ed_Severson]

IIRC they weren't the only ones who continued to use it either.

They weren't, and they aren't the only ones getting penalized for it.

[NismoZ]

I listed 4 others.

[G.]

I listed 4 others.[ScooterGoodyear]See, this is where the use of a link could actually be beneficial in a discussion, since a link provides a source, a reference point, a LINK (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63377) if you will. And once the tire is flat-spotted, there's nothing you can do. You're just a passenger then. But that depends on your understeer. Understeer is when...[\Scooter]



Will Power is among five drivers to be penalised at Surfers Paradise this weekend for using the Power to Pass boost at the previous round after being ordered not to.

Team Australia teammates Power and Simon Pagenaud, along with Dan Clarke (Minardi Team USA), Neel Jani (PKV Racing) and Bruno Junqueira (Dale Coyne Racing) will only be allowed 35 seconds of Power to Pass, as opposed to the 60 seconds of their rivals, when they start this Sunday's 16th Champ Car race in Australia.

Is there more, Ed?

[Ed_Severson]

Don't know an awful lot about it. I don't have any idea how Tony arrived at the penalty, which is 25 seconds of P2P lost for each driver that committed the infraction. About all I know is that it was promised after the Assen event that data would be reviewed and penalties would be announced sometime before Surfer's, and here we are.

[Insomniac]

[ScooterGoodyear]See, this is where the use of a link could actually be beneficial in a discussion, since a link provides a source, a reference point, a LINK (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/63377) if you will. And once the tire is flat-spotted, there's nothing you can do. You're just a passenger then. But that depends on your understeer. Understeer is when...[\Scooter]




Is there more, Ed?

NismoZ posted all 6.

[Boatdesigner]

At least they were smart enough not to DQ people and start a big broo-ha-ha. If it was F1, the lawyers would be in Paris arguing about telemetry and championship points and manufacturers points and bringing disrepute and . . . . Sometimes the 3 amigos look like geniuses compared to Max.

[cameraman]

Or at least Tony Cotman.

[Indy]

I disagree. This is completely ridiculous.

Firstly, the idea that we have a gimmicky go faster button, and secondly, that one can earn double secret go faster probation just raises the idea that it is within the power of the series to give teams unequal amounts of speed at a whim.

Most of all, the decision by Cotman to mandate not using a functional part of the car during a race was ill considered, and to punish someone now, so long after, merely reminds everyone how silly the whole thing was.

If I were Walker, I would withdraw my cars.

[Insomniac]

I disagree. This is completely ridiculous.

Firstly, the idea that we have a gimmicky go faster button, and secondly, that one can earn double secret go faster probation just raises the idea that it is within the power of the series to give teams unequal amounts of speed at a whim.

Most of all, the decision by Cotman to mandate not using a functional part of the car during a race was ill considered, and to punish someone now, so long after, merely reminds everyone how silly the whole thing was.

If I were Walker, I would withdraw my cars.

This isn't a secret probation. They were docked P2P time and we all know it and why. It's not on a whim either. This also the next race after it happened. There should be no punishment because CC had a million week gap between races?

My understanding is some teams had glitchy ECUs and others did not. That it was nothing the teams did to cause the problem. Since they are handed out by Cosworth/CC and are all spec ECUs, it was in the interest of fairness to ban the use of P2P IMO.

[TKGAngel]

Hey, there's a race this weekend? Something different to talk about.

Speaking of the race, did anyone else catch that this race would be shown live on ESPN Classic tomorrow night?

[opinionated ow]

I disagree. This is completely ridiculous.

Firstly, the idea that we have a gimmicky go faster button, and secondly, that one can earn double secret go faster probation just raises the idea that it is within the power of the series to give teams unequal amounts of speed at a whim.

Most of all, the decision by Cotman to mandate not using a functional part of the car during a race was ill considered, and to punish someone now, so long after, merely reminds everyone how silly the whole thing was.

If I were Walker, I would withdraw my cars.

spot on indy. only problem with that is team aussie's home race....however, not one radio new bulletin has all day mentioned the champ cars. it has been all about the v8s. every year prior the v8s hardly rated a mention, but this year they are monopolising all the media attention. 2 minutes about the cabs on the 6PM news, 15 secs on champ car with a 5 second shot of will power and a 5 second shot of bourdais with the bent front suspension.

[Cam]

spot on indy. only problem with that is team aussie's home race....however, not one radio new bulletin has all day mentioned the champ cars. it has been all about the v8s. every year prior the v8s hardly rated a mention, but this year they are monopolising all the media attention. 2 minutes about the cabs on the 6PM news, 15 secs on champ car with a 5 second shot of will power and a 5 second shot of bourdais with the bent front suspension.

You know. Thats how it is worldwide. The biggest news stories here have been the trials and tribulations of stick and ball players and teams. It's no god damn different here than it is in the US. You can bleat all you bloody want Tom but that's the coverage we are gonna get.

In reality auto racing is a niche sport. It's a new game compared to the age old hand to hand combatitive sports that have enthralled the masses since the Romans fed detractors to the lions.

[emjaya]

spot on indy. only problem with that is team aussie's home race....however, not one radio new bulletin has all day mentioned the champ cars. it has been all about the v8s. every year prior the v8s hardly rated a mention, but this year they are monopolising all the media attention. 2 minutes about the cabs on the 6PM news, 15 secs on champ car with a 5 second shot of will power and a 5 second shot of bourdais with the bent front suspension.

The V8's pay for a lot of those "news reports". Plus their Promotions dept works hard.

Besides, what has Champcar done to raise interest in open-wheel racing in this country? They don't even have the Formula Fords racing here this year, just four different types of touring cars. :irked:

[DagoFast]

Cam, I think you are right that OW racing is a niche sport. It came ever so close to breaking out in the early 1990's, but we all know what happened there.

What amazes me is how so many OW fans continue to bury their heads in the sand about Stock Cars in N. America, or in the case of the Aussies, the V8's.

If you look around, you'll notice Nascar has woven themselves right into the fabric of American society. Just like baseball and apple pie.

Anyone that can't see the trend that is rapidly emerging in Canada, Mexico and yes, even down under, is blind, dead or in deep denial.

[chop456]

If you look around, you'll notice Nascar has woven themselves right into the fabric of American society. Just like baseball and apple pie.
And wholesale stupidity.

[DagoFast]

And wholesale stupidity.

Hey! I happen to like apple pie. :D

About the rest, see: Barnum, P.T.

[shaggy_socal]

My understanding is some teams had glitchy ECUs and others did not. That it was nothing the teams did to cause the problem. Since they are handed out by Cosworth/CC and are all spec ECUs, it was in the interest of fairness to ban the use of P2P IMO.

I agree with trying to keep a level playing field but this crosses into NASCAR-land when they seemingly used to change the aero rules every week because one manufacturer whined that the other manufacturers car had an unfair advantage.

So some of the ECU units had a glitch. Guess what, that's racing. This isn't the first time that a faulty part has affected the outcome of a race and it certainly won't be the last.

I don't remember Cotman penalizing teams earlier in the season whose fueling rigs worked normally so that it would balance out with teams stuck with the faulty rigs.

It was a bad call IMO to try and have the drivers police themselves from using PTP during the race and they've now compounded it with these ridiculous penalties.

Instead of penalizing the drivers that used PTP, how about giving some extra PTP time to the drivers that actually had the glitch happen to them?

[Methanolandbrats]

This is exactly why PTP, colorful tires and all other gimmics have no place in racing.

[opinionated ow]

You know. Thats how it is worldwide. The biggest news stories here have been the trials and tribulations of stick and ball players and teams. It's no god damn different here than it is in the US. You can bleat all you bloody want Tom but that's the coverage we are gonna get.

In reality auto racing is a niche sport. It's a new game compared to the age old hand to hand combatitive sports that have enthralled the masses since the Romans fed detractors to the lions.


The V8's pay for a lot of those "news reports". Plus their Promotions dept works hard.

Besides, what has Champcar done to raise interest in open-wheel racing in this country? They don't even have the Formula Fords racing here this year, just four different types of touring cars. :irked:
However, every other year, it was the unique big cars from america that stole the limelight...just shows what 16 car grids do for you. i guarantee if they had 24 cars over here, the v8s wouldn't even get mentioned.

[Andrew Longman]

So some of the ECU units had a glitch. Guess what, that's racing. This isn't the first time that a faulty part has affected the outcome of a race and it certainly won't be the last.

I think Cottman has generally go a very good job, but I agree with you that he missed the mark on this one.

I'm glad the series took responsibility for the faulty ECU but they only needed to make sure the problem doesn't happen again. They didn't need to try to manufacture a different outcome for the teams that had the problem.

No different than if some teams were given a batch of bad fuel or in years past if their popoff were bad.

[G.]

I agree with trying to keep a level playing field but this crosses into NASCAR-land when they seemingly used to change the aero rules every week because one manufacturer whined that the other manufacturers car had an unfair advantage.

So some of the ECU units had a glitch. Guess what, that's racing. This isn't the first time that a faulty part has affected the outcome of a race and it certainly won't be the last.

I don't remember Cotman penalizing teams earlier in the season whose fueling rigs worked normally so that it would balance out with teams stuck with the faulty rigs.

It was a bad call IMO to try and have the drivers police themselves from using PTP during the race and they've now compounded it with these ridiculous penalties.

Instead of penalizing the drivers that used PTP, how about giving some extra PTP time to the drivers that actually had the glitch happen to them?
Faulty parts, I dunno. When the MAN says, "Thou shalt use my ECU, ONLY my ECU, and toucheth it not", then the MAN gives you some bad ju-ju parts, I guess you have a right to complain. You (metaphorically speaking) did, the call was made, "Thou shalt not toggle the ju-ju button, one and all".

Also, Race Control is God. It is up to the teams to get word to the drivers. Bad Comms doesn't give anyone a pass. When RC tells you that you shorted the chicane, that you need to give up a spot, and you ignore it, what happens? You stop being scored. Teams can ALWAYS get word to the drivers. (I'm referring to the article that talks about Power. Comms can't be an excuse, but Walker has a really good point regardless.)

Bad fuelers? Yeah, I think that TonyC got crap for that snafu, and his thought was, "Not again" in relation to the ECU's.

Similar situation with the 300 pound starters. Don't work for all, then no one gets them.

And Andrew, when has a team gotten bad gas from the (one) tanker truck? Same with bad popoffs. Sounds like the engine had "electrical" problems. Wait, they used that excuse LAST week. (I'm asking.)

I'm sort of babbling here, but if RC says "Don't do that!" and you do it anyway, what are they supposed to do? Say, "Just kidding?"

Kinda nice to talk racing.

[Insomniac]

I agree with trying to keep a level playing field but this crosses into NASCAR-land when they seemingly used to change the aero rules every week because one manufacturer whined that the other manufacturers car had an unfair advantage.

So some of the ECU units had a glitch. Guess what, that's racing. This isn't the first time that a faulty part has affected the outcome of a race and it certainly won't be the last.

I don't remember Cotman penalizing teams earlier in the season whose fueling rigs worked normally so that it would balance out with teams stuck with the faulty rigs.

It was a bad call IMO to try and have the drivers police themselves from using PTP during the race and they've now compounded it with these ridiculous penalties.

Instead of penalizing the drivers that used PTP, how about giving some extra PTP time to the drivers that actually had the glitch happen to them?

But CC wasn't placating manufacturers. They were in a tough spot with the ECU. Personally, I would've had no problem with Bourdais getting smoked with his broken P2P. I think they did the right thing during the race, and they can't let people break the rules with no consequence. IMO, it's still a slap on the wrist in the sense that it most likely won't affect their race. However, the glitch should've been found and fixed long before the race. That's the worst part of it all. It never should've come up. They should get P2P time in morning practice sessions.

[grungex]

If memory serves, I think they do.

[Indy]

And wholesale stupidity.

So true. We are first in nothing but mediocrity, and we are proud of that distinction.

[Andrew Longman]

And Andrew, when has a team gotten bad gas from the (one) tanker truck? Same with bad popoffs. Sounds like the engine had "electrical" problems. Wait, they used that excuse LAST week. (I'm asking.)

Can't recall bad fuel. Recall several complaints about pop offs over the years.

Agreed when they told them not to use the P2P they shouldn't have used it without consequence, but I'm not sure they should have told them that in the first place.

[shaggy_socal]

Faulty parts, I dunno. When the MAN says, "Thou shalt use my ECU, ONLY my ECU, and toucheth it not", then the MAN gives you some bad ju-ju parts, I guess you have a right to complain. You (metaphorically speaking) did, the call was made, "Thou shalt not toggle the ju-ju button, one and all".

Also, Race Control is God. It is up to the teams to get word to the drivers. Bad Comms doesn't give anyone a pass. When RC tells you that you shorted the chicane, that you need to give up a spot, and you ignore it, what happens? You stop being scored. Teams can ALWAYS get word to the drivers. (I'm referring to the article that talks about Power. Comms can't be an excuse, but Walker has a really good point regardless.)

I still think it's ridiculous for Race Control to expect the teams/drivers to police themselves. Isn't one of the goals of racing to exploit any unfair advantage you have over your opponents? Some teams couldn't use PTP and some could. Sort it out after the race. Give extra PTP time to the affected cars at the next race.


Bad fuelers? Yeah, I think that TonyC got crap for that snafu, and his thought was, "Not again" in relation to the ECU's.

Similar situation with the 300 pound starters. Don't work for all, then no one gets them.

But those issues were handled between races, not during the race.


And Andrew, when has a team gotten bad gas from the (one) tanker truck? Same with bad popoffs. Sounds like the engine had "electrical" problems. Wait, they used that excuse LAST week. (I'm asking.)

I don't know about bad fuel, but I vaguely remember that the USAC pop off valves were notoriously unreliable. I forget the year, but CART came up with their own valve that was accurate and reliable which solved the problem. Again, I don't remember race control radioing the field during a race saying, "Walker Racing is only getting 25 inches of boost right now so everyone else must dial back their boost so that it's fair, and if you don't we'll get you."


I'm sort of babbling here, but if RC says "Don't do that!" and you do it anyway, what are they supposed to do? Say, "Just kidding?"

On that point I do agree and what's done is done, but Race Control's original call was a bad call, IMO, that got compounded when they "enforced" the ruling. This isn't algebra rule making where two negative calls make a positive outcome. ;)


Kinda nice to talk racing.

Abso-friggin-lutely! F1, CC and throw in some Steeler's football for variety. I need to m\get my errands done today cuz I'll be on my butt tomorrow.

[miatanut]

My understanding is some teams had glitchy ECUs and others did not. That it was nothing the teams did to cause the problem. Since they are handed out by Cosworth/CC and are all spec ECUs, it was in the interest of fairness to ban the use of P2P IMO.

This problem has been going on since at least Portland testing, because when I was listening to the teams on my scanner at Portland testing, they all had instructions to use P2P every time out, to see if it engaged the pitlane rev limiter or not. I even recall a funny conversation between one driver and the crew chief reminding him to do this. He said "I don't want to use the P2P. When I do it causes the rev limiter to come on!" I think this problem first emerged at Houston.

The only one who should be getting a penalty is Cosworth for not having it fixed by now. Oh, wait, that's owned by the Amigos! Actually, it would seem to be related to the wiring loom of the new car, because this never happened with the Lola/Cosworth combination. Maybe Cosworth should get a DP01 to go pounding around Silverstone trying to reproduce the problem.

Can you imagine a problem going on this long back when there were competitive chassis? The chassis manufacturer would be banging Cosworth's door down trying to team up to get the problem fixed.

More evidence the mighty CART has become club racing.

Sorry to be such a downer.

[Insomniac]

Give extra PTP time to the affected cars at the next race.

Add some to 11 cars or take some away from 6 cars. Still the same net result.

[Insomniac]

This problem has been going on since at least Portland testing, because when I was listening to the teams on my scanner at Portland testing, they all had instructions to use P2P every time out, to see if it engaged the pitlane rev limiter or not. I even recall a funny conversation between one driver and the crew chief reminding him to do this. He said "I don't want to use the P2P. When I do it causes the rev limiter to come on!" I think this problem first emerged at Houston.

The only one who should be getting a penalty is Cosworth for not having it fixed by now. Oh, wait, that's owned by the Amigos! Actually, it would seem to be related to the wiring loom of the new car, because this never happened with the Lola/Cosworth combination. Maybe Cosworth should get a DP01 to go pounding around Silverstone trying to reproduce the problem.

Can you imagine a problem going on this long back when there were competitive chassis? The chassis manufacturer would be banging Cosworth's door down trying to team up to get the problem fixed.

More evidence the mighty CART has become club racing.

Sorry to be such a downer.

Any idea why it only happened during one race over that span though?

[miatanut]

Any idea why it only happened during one race over that span though?

Not a clue, but the words intermitent, electrical, and problem go together kind of like like the words peanut, butter, and jelly, which is why it would be necessary to have somebody pounding around Silverstone trying to reproduce it. Just a few cars have experienced this, so it would probably need to be an ECU, chassis (wiring loom), and steering wheel combination that has already experienced it, or the whole search would be a waste of time.

[nrc]

Pi handles the ECU now IIRC. Pi, Cosworth, and Panoz are all capable companies with a lot of racing experience. Racing suppliers have problems sometimes. It happens. It's just more evident because everyone is running the same brand new package.

It's silly to suggest that these cars should be as sorted as 7 year old Lolas.

[miatanut]

Pi handles the ECU now IIRC. Pi, Cosworth, and Panoz are all capable companies with a lot of racing experience. Racing suppliers have problems sometimes. It happens. It's just more evident because everyone is running the same brand new package.

It's silly to suggest that these cars should be as sorted as 7 year old Lolas.

I'm not suggesting that.

I'm suggesting that if we turned the clock back and it was the first year of a new car, would Lola be sitting on their hands with this problem if it didn't afflict the Reynard or Swift, or AAR, or Penske, or would they be banging Cosworth's and/or Pi's door down trying to get it solved ASAP, because their customers could walk over it?

I'm suggesting that since everything is spec., there isn't nearly the urgency in getting the problem fixed.

So we get goofy problems like racers getting penalized for doing what racers naturally do. Everything in their power to win.