View Full Version : +100HP P2P And 75 Secs. For Mexico City
Test to consider for all races next season...if
Methanolandbrats
10-31-07, 05:34 PM
How about 200 extra horsepower all the time and disable push to pass :thumbup:
jonovision_man
10-31-07, 05:51 PM
How about 200 extra horsepower all the time and disable push to pass :thumbup:
I like the way you think... :) :thumbup:
ferrarigod
10-31-07, 06:16 PM
^^^ agreed. keep the revs the same if you have too, but at least boost it up. and an intercooler if it helps. I have some extras. :D i'm tired of this 12,5 redline with super nintendo mario kart ptp.
last2brake
10-31-07, 07:51 PM
P2P is OK. The drivers should just get an 1 hour and 45 minutes of P2P per race.
At least until they fix the timed races problem.
Randomize P2P. Give random amounts from 30 seconds to 5 minutes and don't tell the drivers how much they have. That would liven things up a bit.
i'm tired of this 12,5 redline with super nintendo mario kart ptp.
So, what exactly is the difference between having P2P in 2007 and "the button" circa 1999, except for knowing all the details of how P2P works while details of "the button" and how much it could be used was pretty much the engine suppliers' secret?
Sean Malone
10-31-07, 08:27 PM
Can P2P. Limiting it's use for penalties is lame.
PTP is a lame-ass gimmick that has jumped the shark, big time. Get ahead of the curve for once, CC, and kill it now.
[fat chance :shakehead]
Insomniac
10-31-07, 08:47 PM
Get Bridgestone to be more aggressive on the alternate tires and keep p2p.
Edit--All tires really. They need to last a little less than the fuel.
Spicoli
10-31-07, 09:23 PM
cheap, no brainer press.
:tony:
who needs a beer?:confused:
So, what exactly is the difference between having P2P in 2007 and "the button" circa 1999, except for knowing all the details of how P2P works while details of "the button" and how much it could be used was pretty much the engine suppliers' secret?^^^^^^^Word.
I must be the only one here that likes the damn thing. But I've never known a time when it didn't exist (early '90's n00b-fan), just that now it's part of "The Show". I guess I like it above-board.
Rogue Leader
10-31-07, 11:28 PM
^^^^^^^Word.
I must be the only one here that likes the damn thing. But I've never known a time when it didn't exist (early '90's n00b-fan), just that now it's part of "The Show". I guess I like it above-board.
They've had the button for a long time, and the limits were much different, but there was a limit.
It was basically more like how much you used it would exponentially increase how soon your engine would grenade. Some were good at managing that... others not so much.
They've had the button for a long time, and the limits were much different, but there was a limit.
It was basically more like how much you used it would exponentially increase how soon your engine would grenade. Some were good at managing that... others not so much.
Yes.
Since we didn't know all the details back then it was rather more exciting.
Imagine how deflating it would have been if we had been told by the announcers and the on-screen data that Zanardi was on the button going into the Corkscrew and the Herta was out of button time and had no way to respond to the pressure?
Andrew Longman
11-01-07, 07:03 AM
The last few years I've noticed that most teams chose gearing that I guess was optimal for the majority of the track but also caused them to hit the limiter at the end of the front straight.
I wonder if this will change that in any way.
opinionated ow
11-01-07, 07:07 AM
Yes.
Since we didn't know all the details back then it was rather more exciting.
Imagine how deflating it would have been if we had been told by the announcers and the on-screen data that Zanardi was on the button going into the Corkscrew and the Herta was out of button time and had no way to respond to the pressure?
the biggest difference between then and now, is it wasn't a series controlled artificial gimmick. it was an allowance by the team to try and maximise performance, and if you were too greedy you paid the price. now it is a gimmick with no penalty except to run out of time.
Good gimmick I'd say and hardly lame. Drivers like it and I'd say most fans understand it better than the old button. The on-screen visuals, flashing light and commentators always keep us informed. I find it difficult to understand some of you supporting the system where you were kept ignorant of its use and may have looked forward to blown engines. So you could applaud negative results and stupid team and driver chance taking? I fear you experts here simply know TOO much and over think every decision CC makes. I understand given the current climate surrounding the series how easy it is to become a doom and gloomer and how comfortable it must make many of you knowing you are part of a growing crowd. I see this move as an attempt to do something that will increase racing excitement and drama and perhaps take passing out of the pits and put it on the track where it belongs. Won't know until you try it. Even with the recent software glitches I'd say P2P has been successful overall and combined with mandated use of different tire compounds has improved the CC product. I notice other series have included both as elements in their entertainment packages so there must be some perceived merit there. I support the move and hope it adds to the fun.:)
Sean Malone
11-01-07, 01:05 PM
Good gimmick I'd say and hardly lame. Drivers like it and I'd say most fans understand it better than the old button. The on-screen visuals, flashing light and commentators always keep us informed. I find it difficult to understand some of you supporting the system where you were kept ignorant of its use and may have looked forward to blown engines. So you could applaud negative results and stupid team and driver chance taking? I fear you experts here simply know TOO much and over think every decision CC makes. I understand given the current climate surrounding the series how easy it is to become a doom and gloomer and how comfortable it must make many of you knowing you are part of a growing crowd. I see this move as an attempt to do something that will increase racing excitement and drama and perhaps take passing out of the pits and put it on the track where it belongs. Won't know until you try it. Even with the recent software glitches I'd say P2P has been successful overall and combined with mandated use of different tire compounds has improved the CC product. I notice other series have included both as elements in their entertainment packages so there must be some perceived merit there. I support the move and hope it adds to the fun.:)
I'll have to dig up my post where I said that P2P was cool, it just needed to be a bigger boost. I'm looking forward to seeing the 100hp upgrade, but if it were up to me, I would have added whatever it takes in order for the P2P to make a noticeable difference to the fan. Not just a tenth of a second a lap, but if two cars are side by side, the guy on the button should be pulling away like a rocket just went off. Oh, and a button where oil squirts out the back wing making the cars behind spin off. Oh, and a button that makes spikey things come out from the wheels that tear into the other guys tires. Yep. :thumbup:
Insomniac
11-01-07, 01:14 PM
I guess I'm the only one confused by the talk that the button was always there. What button are you guys talking about? The series limited the boost with the pop-off valve. Wouldn't all the manufacturers build their engines to use all that boost at any time you could use it? It would seem odd to build your engine to not use it all, but then the button let's them get to the maximum. Did the button lift an artificial rev limit?
I guess I'm the only one confused by the talk that the button was always there. What button are you guys talking about? The series limited the boost with the pop-off valve. Wouldn't all the manufacturers build their engines to use all that boost at any time you could use it? It would seem odd to build your engine to not use it all, but then the button let's them get to the maximum. Did the button lift an artificial rev limit?Part of the mystery (which some people like) was that it was all hush-hush. No one but the engine geeks knew what it did. Was it fuel, timing, feed the squirrel pellets, who knows. Most people didn't know that there WAS such a thing. They tried to keep it rather unclear over the radio and stuff, too.
Most likely, the button activated the "re-interpret the rules" function.:laugh:
Andrew Longman
11-01-07, 02:25 PM
The old button almost certainly had nothing to do with boost since that is regulated and changing it would be cheating. :tony:
But I'm pretty sure it had to do with fuel mixture, mapping and timing that can be controlled electronically since 1) that would be legal and 2) use always seemed to effect fuel mileage
Insomniac
11-01-07, 02:34 PM
Part of the mystery (which some people like) was that it was all hush-hush. No one but the engine geeks knew what it did. Was it fuel, timing, feed the squirrel pellets, who knows. Most people didn't know that there WAS such a thing. They tried to keep it rather unclear over the radio and stuff, too.
Most likely, the button activated the "re-interpret the rules" function.:laugh:
OK, that helps a little. But I wonder why the engines weren't tuned to run that way the whole race. When you compare it to P2P, it makes it seem like a pretty significant performance boost.
Insomniac
11-01-07, 02:34 PM
The old button almost certainly had nothing to do with boost since that is regulated and changing it would be cheating. :tony:
But I'm pretty sure it had to do with fuel mixture, mapping and timing that can be controlled electronically since 1) that would be legal and 2) use always seemed to effect fuel mileage
They had a fuel mixture knob though.
Ed_Severson
11-01-07, 02:44 PM
In the early-to-mid 90's a lot of the teams, I think, were running with a control knob in the cockpit that allowed the driver to change the maximum boost pressure. This was in the days when the legal limit was 45 in Hg; the driver could artificially lower his maximum boost to some lower figure like 42 inches, the purpose of which would be to sacrifice a little bit of pace for fuel economy and to give the engine a bit of a break. As the boost limit went lower and lower to respond to increases in power, eventually this idea became obsolete and devolved into the fuel mixture knob, which was really just another method for accomplishing the same purpose.
I think the switch to a 100 hp gap is a good thing -- if we're going to bother having P2P, it needs to be a big enough leap in power to make a significant difference in performance and require judicious application, and I don't think the 50 hp figure was enough. This is analagous to the tire situation, where in my opinion, the grip and wear characteristics of the two Bridgestone compounds are not dissimilar enough.
I'd like to see the cars 'glow' when PtP is being used like Fox does with the hockey puck. :gomer:
First time I saw 'em glow was Surfers in '94. Dang thing finished in near darkness after lots of rain and the brakes were red hot and clearly visible. Not unusual in endurance races but I'd never seen it in champcars before. One of my favorite tapes; Reynard's 1st win in it's first race and Michael's welcome back from F-1. Also a lengthy interview with Tony George about his new racing league for the next season. I barely took notice.:(
First time I saw 'em glow was Surfers in '94. Dang thing finished in near darkness after lots of rain and the brakes were red hot and clearly visible. Not unusual in indurance races but I'd never seen it in champcars before. One of my favorite tapes; Reynard's 1st win in it's first race and Michael's welcome back from F-1. Also a lengthy interview with Tony George about his new racing league for the next season. I barely took notice.:(
Surfers '94. Glowing brake disc's and exhaust flames. :thumbup: :cool:
It's the one race that stands out out of the ones I've been to.
I think they should have titanium plates mounted to hydraulic struts under the cars so that the driver can hit a button when he wants to go all "old school F1 sparky" on the other guy's ass. Then the fans will be tricked into thinking they are going fast like they used to and everyone will be happy.
Spicoli
11-01-07, 11:11 PM
I think they should have titanium plates mounted to hydraulic struts under the cars so that the driver can hit a button when he wants to go all "old school F1 sparky" on the other guy's ass. Then the fans will be tricked into thinking they are going fast like they used to and everyone will be happy.
I thought you were busy tonight? You know with work and family and ****? :lol:
Methanolandbrats
11-01-07, 11:18 PM
**** P2P, tires with colorful strips and all that ******** because this ain't the circus. Give em enough power so that the sumbitches never hook up and drop the green.
Gangrel
11-02-07, 11:25 AM
They had a fuel mixture knob though.
They also had a boost control knob.
Insomniac
11-02-07, 03:14 PM
They also had a boost control knob.
Interesting. So it wasn't really a button?
cameraman
11-02-07, 06:02 PM
Interesting. So it wasn't really a button?
You see turning a knob is real racing whereas pushing a button is a gimmick.
Ya gotta keep up.
jonovision_man
11-02-07, 06:10 PM
You see turning a knob is real racing whereas pushing a button is a gimmick.
Ya gotta keep up.
Knob = part of engine/fuel management
Button = contrived gimmick
jono
Insomniac
11-02-07, 08:31 PM
You see turning a knob is real racing whereas pushing a button is a gimmick.
Ya gotta keep up.
Knob = part of engine/fuel management
Button = contrived gimmick
jono
Gotcha. I thought there was a super secret button. :)
DagoFast
11-02-07, 08:55 PM
There's a certain beauty in a mechanical knob hooked to a waste gate that a driver turns until he can hear the air bleeding off out of the pop off valve thru a simple piece of tubing hooked to his helmet.
A closed loop system with nary a microchip involved. I'm grateful to have lived in those times. Or maybe it's the vodka talking.
Robstar
11-03-07, 06:37 AM
I agreee with whoever said, give 'em all that HPness, all the time & let them race... :thumbup:
I thought you were busy tonight? You know with work and family and ****? :lol:
This ain't work?
Ruben Barrios
11-03-07, 02:17 PM
In addition to p2p, all cars will now feature one missile, 50 seconds of inpenetrable field force, two bucketful of spikes, 3 quarts of oil and two restarts.
Steve Johnson and company are still reviewing the possibility of a smoke screen, but given the fact that Mexico City is the most polluted city in the world, it is highly likely smoke screens would be for naught...
In other news a very lucrative merger with the EZ Go Championship Series of Golf Carts is underway, preliminary secret tests were bittersweet as one Paul Tracy resulted bruised in the final leg of the cross country test.
A agreement between supermoto association and CCWS is in the works for the new African leg of the schedule. The plan would include a section of the track being covered with dirt and a couple of bunny hops...
The anticipated anouncement of the title sponsor may have come to fruition as of 12:00 PM yesterday when KK met with nintendo executives. The series would be then called "Mario bros. Virtual Champ Car World Series Powered by Nintendo"
Rogue Leader
11-03-07, 03:37 PM
In addition to p2p, all cars will now feature one missile, 50 seconds of inpenetrable field force, two bucketful of spikes, 3 quarts of oil and two restarts.
Not to go OT, but I was a HUGE fan of the Wipeout seres of futuristic racing games on Playstation and the PC. There was boost and weapons, but if you really wanted to win you just had to plain drive good, the weapons were barely effective and not common. Then Wipeout Fusion came out for PS2, which had all these new weapons and stuff. It sucked, the tracks were much more convoluted and you had these weapons that would just straight out obliterate the guy ahead of you.
I guess youre wondering what my point is, and its basically adding gimmicks and stuff like that isnt fun, for anyone. Let the teams do what they want, or dont have any P2P at all....
Jag_Warrior
11-03-07, 08:02 PM
OK, that helps a little. But I wonder why the engines weren't tuned to run that way the whole race.
http://www.motoringpicturelibrary.com/docs/pic1076t.jpg
Insomniac
11-05-07, 08:48 AM
http://www.motoringpicturelibrary.com/docs/pic1076t.jpg
Weak engineering. ;)
knob in the cockpit
Good post Ed, I agree on both counts. I loved the fact they used to have a tube in their helmet so they could hear the popoff pop too to get the thing dialed in.
oddlycalm
11-05-07, 08:46 PM
^^^^^^^Word.
I must be the only one here that likes the damn thing. But I've never known a time when it didn't exist (early '90's n00b-fan), just that now it's part of "The Show". I guess I like it above-board. A power boost button is just fine if it's used rationally IMO. The limiting factor in the 90's was fuel consumption which was just fine. You could use it all you wanted but if you did you were coming in for fuel early and you also risked engine reliability.
The limiting factor now is a small arbitrary time limit accessible to everyone so the booth monkeys blather about it endlessly with PTP time remaining displayed on the invasive on-screen crawl. :yuck:
One way it's an organic part of the racing, the other it's a side show.
oc
oddlycalm
11-05-07, 09:20 PM
**** P2P, tires with colorful strips and all that ******** because this ain't the circus. Give em enough power so that the sumbitches never hook up and drop the green. Yup, take half the aero away and run them at 900hp again. I predecit plenty of excitement.
oc
Spicoli
11-12-07, 12:37 PM
Nice job by JW on that magic button! :eek:
that was all-sum.
I hear that they are looking at it as SOP for 08.:thumbup:
jonovision_man
11-12-07, 08:04 PM
SOP?
I think it completely sucks... get behind guy, hit button, blow by. Don't worry about having to draft, or stay close to the guy through the corner, just hit the super button and give 'er.
:thumdown:
cameraman
11-12-07, 08:16 PM
SOP?
I think it completely sucks... get behind guy, hit button, blow by. Don't worry about having to draft, or stay close to the guy through the corner, just hit the super button and give 'er.
Sure it is:shakehead
Power demonstrated just exactly how simple it is:rolleyes:
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