Drought in the Southeast

[trish]

I don't follow the news too closely, so I've just started hearing about this over the past three days. This has been a bit of a shock to me.

This morning I caught a story about a town in Tennessee that has already run out of water. http://www.charlotte.com/nation/story/344047.html

Apparently Atlanta is being accused of being water hogs (http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071104/NEWS01/711040415) and their reserves are also at a low. (http://citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200771030148&source=rss)

I'm definitely going to start changing the way I use water in the future, as I have not been nearly as conservative as I should be.

For anyone who has been following this story, here's a new website launched to track the drought. http://www.drought.gov/portal/server.pt

[nrc]

"Low flow? Well I don't like the sound of that."

It was a dry summer here but a few days of heavy rain in October actually put us a bit ahead of normal. Southern Ohio is still in a mild drought according to the map.

[dando]

I've actually been watching this for some time since my mom lives down in Hilton Head. The southeast drought is bad, but it pales in comparison to what has been happening in the western US for the past several years. The southeast drought situation really came to light earlier this year with the wildfires in Georgia and SC.

Like NRC said, central Ohiya was in moderate drought for much of the summer, as we had little if any rain for most of April, May, and June (normally fairly wet mos.). We eased a bit, but would go for weeks straight w/o rain before getting pummeled. An unusually wet Sept and Oct have eased the situation again.

-Kevin

[Andrew Longman]

The traffic situation in Atlanta alone should tell folks that development there hasn't been particularly well thought out.

This is a situation that continues to play out in various parts of the country. Florida has been bashing residents about water use for years even while they let agribusiness use as much as they want just so they can ship strawberries north in January.

In Jersey they have effectively made it impossible to develop any land in the northwester third of the state in order to protect water supplies to NYC and the northeast part of the state. It slashed property values to a fraction overnight and the state didn't compensate landowners, but what are you going to do?

Of course the real answer is to charge what water really costs in order to spur conservation.

[cameraman]

You want to see ultimate water policy idiocy look no further than Las Vegas.

Massive growth in a place with no local water.

[Ankf00]

You want to see ultimate water policy idiocy look no further than Las Vegas.

Massive growth in a place with no local water.

My fav is all the water canal communites with private lake mead access.

[JLMannin]

I heard somewhere that the drought is attributed to the reduced numbers of tropical storms hitting the south-east US . . . . .

[oddlycalm]

You want to see ultimate water policy idiocy look no further than Las Vegas.

Massive growth in a place with no local water. Absolutely right. One 'burb West of LV is actually called The Lakes. :gomer: Ank's comment highlights the idiocy over the hill on Lake Mead.

Same goes for Phoenix. Massive unregulated sprawl, golf course proliferation like Starbucks, endless developments with artificial lakes and fountains...

Arizona has rights to 2.8 million acre feet of Colorado River water per year, California is entitled to 4.4 million acre feet per year and Nevada has annual allocation of 300,000 acre feet. One acre foot of water equals 325,851 gallons, the amount used by a family of four in one year. This all assumes the water will be there forever though....

Push will come to shove at some point not far down the road when the impoundments on the Colorado River are drawn down and California, Nevada and Arizona each want to continue to draw water that no longer exists. Lake Powells content has dropped to around 60% of what it was 10yrs ago.


oc

[Ankf00]

Cadillac Desert by Marc Reisner is a great, informative read on the history of the west, its development and associated water mgmt, and all the politics and under the table deals involved during the past 100 years.

published 20 years ago and he's passed away since, but lots of neat history in there.

[Andrew Longman]

OC, I'm not going to make excuses for Phoenix and their land use pattern, but at least they have multiple water sources including pretty extensive ground water (plus the Colorado, of course)

Tucson and the rest of the state are a different issue.

These western cities also don't have water for power generation and while hyrdoelectric can do a lot, the need to transmit power from far flung generators in will be a limit to growth.

[Ankf00]

what is it, arizona valley project? salt river project? gila river project? some half-assed reservoir system from the early 80's that I don't believe has ever reached full capacity since nor will it ever, but is there at public expense b/c Udall wanted his share for P-town just like CA always gets its.

[cameraman]

These western cities also don't have water for power generation and while hyrdoelectric can do a lot, the need to transmit power from far flung generators in will be a limit to growth.We burn coal out here, lots and lots of coal. The fine folks in CA put their generation plants in Utah and let the smoke blow east to CO.

As for Vegas, they have already burned through their Colorado River water allotment and they are now trying to build a huge series of deep wells in eastern NV. They plan to drop the water table a couple hundred feet in the process. Thing is the aquifer crosses the state line and if they drop the water table like the Nevadans plan to, all of western central Utah will lose their wells. Needless to say Utah will take them to court from now until the end of time.

[Andrew Longman]

We burn coal out here, lots and lots of coal. The fine folks in CA put their generation plants in Utah and let the smoke blow east to CO.

But that coal has to boil water to make steam to drive a generator. That's why CA put its plant in Utah because you have more water than them... for now.

[Ankf00]

do you need a large steady supply of water to run a coal plant? couldn't some sort of massive stock pond to cool the steam in a closed cycle system do the trick?

[cameraman]

Seeing as how the plant is in the middle of a desert about a hundred miles from the nearest river more than 5 feet wide, the answer would be yes. The plant is where it is because the coal mines are a short train ride east, the winds allow it to meet the clean air act and there are no NIMBYs to complain.

When I say no NIMBYs I mean it, Millard County is bigger than Connecticut and Rhode Island combined and has a population of just over 12,000. It is as close to the middle of nowhere as you are likely to get in the US.

[Methanolandbrats]

do you need a large steady supply of water to run a coal plant? couldn't some sort of massive stock pond to cool the steam in a closed cycle system do the trick? How do you make a closed loop cooling pond? In a traditional one, that climate would cause huge evaporative losses.

[Ankf00]

meant closed loop steam cycle, open stock pond. dig it deep and narrow to reduce surface area, deeper the hole the cooler the adjacent rock. pulling this out of my ass but point being I don't see why one would need the flowrate of the Snake or Columbia to run a coal plant. but again, pulling it out of my ass

[cameraman]

Here is the plant. Cooling towers and pond are on the lower right.

http://homepage.mac.com/datkinso/.Pictures/Intermountain.gif

Note the lush Utah climate.

[Ankf00]

where's the high speed detachable quad? :)

[Methanolandbrats]

Does'nt look like any significant water table recharge for the southeast this winter or early spring. http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/long_range/lead01/index.php

[emjaya]

It may not be drought, low rainfall might be normal state of things. That's what we're being told here in Oz. :\

It's now started to pour with rain as I typed. :gomer:

[cart7]

I heard somewhere that the drought is attributed to the reduced numbers of tropical storms hitting the south-east US . . . . .

The last 2 tropical seasons were predicted to be big ones but they never panned out. At least not in the normal areas. It's been awhile since a big TS or hurricane came on shore from Georgia up to the outer banks. Literally nothing has hit east of Katrina's landfall site on the LA/MS border since that storm came ashore. Everything has been dumping into Texas, a state that itself was suffering a bad drought just prior to the past year or so.

Weather comes in cycles, this will work itself out. How the water situation is handled down there will be interesting to watch though. It's getting serious. I'm predicting re-interest in dam construction soon as a means of water supply for the future.

[emjaya]

I'm predicting re-interest in dam construction soon as a means of water supply for the future.

That is what the government are doing here. After igoring the water problem for twenty years, suddenly they start planning to build dams everywhere. :rolleyes:

Problem is, it does not rain on the dams that we have now. Most are down to about 20% capacity if not less. :eek: :shakehead

[cart7]

That is what the government are doing here. After igoring the water problem for twenty years, suddenly they start planning to build dams everywhere. :rolleyes:

Problem is, it does not rain on the dams that we have now. Most are down to about 20% capacity if not less. :eek: :shakehead

The end of the corps of engineers as dam constructors ended in the mid 70's when the ROI of the projects became sketchy and tree huggers got involved. At the time, water supply for ever increasing urban population areas was not on the radar screen. Dams built in days gone by had such reasons as flood control, irrigation along with Hydro electric power as their purpose. By and large, water storage, a by-product, wasn't the priority.

Large reservoirs are the best way to provide huge storage areas for large amounts of water for cities like Atlanta with populations in the millions. If the Atlanta metro region had one more Altoona or Lanier sized lake in it's region it would be looking at an additional 30 - 60 days of water left before real problems hit. At least enough time to get it into the start of the hopefully rainy spring season in 2008.

[Gnam]

Push will come to shove at some point not far down the road when the impoundments on the Colorado River are drawn down and California, Nevada and Arizona each want to continue to draw water that no longer exists.
oc

I wonder if there will ever be an Alaskan Pipeline full of water. Snow would be a cash crop, Canadians and Russians would be the new shieks. madness. :gomer:

[Methanolandbrats]

I wonder if there will ever be an Alaskan Pipeline full of water. Snow would be a cash crop, Canadians and Russians would be the new shieks. madness. :gomer: Probably not. Water diversion on that scale causes environmental and economic problems for the donor area. There have been repeated "plans" to divert Lake Superior Water to the southwest. That will never fly because dropping the level of Lake Superior a few feet would disrupt shipping, fishing and tourism as well as accelerating erosion of coast lines and rivers flowing into the lake. In fact Lake Superior is at almost record lows now, probably due in part to warmer temperatures the last few years. No way more water could be diverted from the basin.

[Sean Malone]

I read awhile back that desalination plants were the wave of the future for places like FL and essential to life for African countries in the coming decades.

[Indy]

It will eventually come down to what people are willing to pay for it. Money is a representation of the productive capacity of a nation, and when we spend it, we are allocating those resources. In the future, when we are paying $3.00 a gallon for tap water, it will be distributed like oil, and we will be the poorer for it, just like with oil.

[Indy]

I read awhile back that desalination plants were the wave of the future for places like FL and essential to life for African countries in the coming decades.

Agreed. Investing in desalination today would be like investing in oil companies when motorized transport was in its infancy. Anyone want to be the next J. Paul Getty?

[Andrew Longman]

Probably not. Water diversion on that scale causes environmental and economic problems for the donor area. There have been repeated "plans" to divert Lake Superior Water to the southwest. That will never fly because dropping the level of Lake Superior a few feet would disrupt shipping, fishing and tourism as well as accelerating erosion of coast lines and rivers flowing into the lake. In fact Lake Superior is at almost record lows now, probably due in part to warmer temperatures the last few years. No way more water could be diverted from the basin.

Thirty years ago there was talk of exporting Lake Superior water to the Southwest. The locals would have nothing to do with it saying essentially if you were stupid enough to move to a desert, it wasn't their problem to solve by draining their lake.

Politically and commercially there is nothing to coherce the Yupers and Canucks to part with their water.

[Ankf00]

The end of the corps of engineers as dam constructors ended in the mid 70's when the ROI of the projects became sketchy and tree huggers got involved.

the ROI's always been sketchy, the corps got into it when they saw how much work the bureau of reclamation was pulling in. they used the same BS economic models and got to work east of the mississippi.

the logic was genius, channelize (lets say the missouri) for shipping traffic, which then creates flood control issues, so viola, a couple of dams down river, which then interrupts said shipping traffic but you now control floods and can supply agribiz with heavily subsidized water even though only "small farms" are supposed to get that rate, but a little fraud's no big deal. of course these dams shouldn't interrupt any established areas, so lets just flood out native americans even though there's far better sites available. and all paid for by the rest of the country since the water and hydroelectricity revenue will NEVER offset the construction costs, and there's still no heavy shipping on the channelized portion of the river so there's no ROI on that either.

bunch of stinkin' thieves.

[cameraman]

Thirty years ago there was talk of exporting Lake Superior water to the Southwest.

Pie in the sky talk. Pumping water over the rockies was insanely too energy intensive 30 years ago, now it would be a few steps beyond sheer lunacy.

The southwest needs to recycle its waste water. Figuring out how to purify it to drinking water standards without using vast amounts of energy is critical. Too bad nobody is doing a damned thing.:shakehead

[Sean Malone]

Pie in the sky talk. Pumping water over the rockies was insanely too energy intensive 30 years ago, now it would be a few steps beyond sheer lunacy.

The southwest needs to recycle its waste water. Figuring out how to purify it to drinking water standards without using vast amounts of energy is critical. Too bad nobody is doing a damned thing.:shakehead

Maybe they need to learn to play golf without grass. It would cut down on clubs. all one would need is a sand wedge.

[Andrew Longman]

Pumping water over the rockies was insanely too energy intensive 30 years ago, now it would be a few steps beyond sheer lunacy.

Just need to suck real hard and get a good siphon going. :gomer:

[greenie]

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